Outlet Wiring Help

[SHEP]

I am replacing the outlet under the sink for the disposal and dishwasher. This outlet is very old and I can't figure out the wiring. I am not an electrician nor do I want to be so hopefully someone knows the answer. I have 3 wires in the outlet; red, black, and white. There isn't a bare copper wire for the ground, just those three wires. Which one is the ground? I thought the white one be it but not sure. The back of the old one is so old it doesn't state which wire is for what. In the picture below, showing the back of the old outlet, the bare wire is actually the white wire but the coating came off. On the back of the new outlet, the options on the back are "hot" on one side and "white blanco" on the other. Then there is the green screw for the ground. I thought the white would be the ground but the back is confusing me and I don't know sh*t about anything. What say ye??

Here is the old one, the bare one is actually the white wire:

Here are the wires, sorry for the mess, still cleaning it:

Here is the new outlet which is hard to read but the right side says "hot" and the left with the lighter screws says "white blanco".

Thanks for the help!

SHEP

 

[monkeyswrench]

@Taboma to the white courtesy phone...or @The Chicken or...?
I can only promise sparks and profanity...and maybe hitting your head on the drain

 

[TrollerDave]

I am replacing the outlet under the sink for the disposal and dishwasher. This outlet is very old and I can't figure out the wiring. I am not an electrician nor do I want to be so hopefully someone knows the answer. I have 3 wires in the outlet; red, black, and white. There isn't a bare copper wire for the ground, just those three wires. Which one is the ground? I thought the white one be it but not sure. The back of the old one is so old it doesn't state which wire is for what. In the picture below, showing the back of the old outlet, the bare wire is actually the white wire but the coating came off. On the back of the new outlet, the options on the back are "hot" on one side and "white blanco" on the other. Then there is the green screw for the ground. I thought the white would be the ground but the back is confusing me and I don't know sh*t about anything. What say ye??

Here is the old one, the bare one is actually the white wire:

View attachment 1472022

Here are the wires, sorry for the mess, still cleaning it:

View attachment 1472023

Here is the new outlet which is hard to read but the right side says "hot" and the left with the lighter screws says "white blanco".

View attachment 1472024

Thanks for the help!

SHEP

Usually, the disposal is on a separate circuit from the other plug in the outlet. One outlet is the disposal with because it has a switch, the other is for a dishwasher.
You’ll need an electric meter or voltage tester to see which wire works off the switch. Most likely, it will be the red one. The black should be a constant HOT for the other outlet. The white should be the neutral.
There should be a tab between the 2 HOT screws on the side. That will need to be broken off so you don’t get a short from both circuits.

 

[Sharky]

open up your breaker panel. Find the breaker for that outlet. See if you can locate that wire coming into the breaker panel.

Look at both the neutral & ground buss. See if there is an odd colored wire (maybe with a piece of tape on it) connected to the neutral or ground buss.

 

[Emac]

One of the wires (black or red) will be a constant hot and the other will be the switch leg for your garbage disposer. There is a tab (on the gold colored side ) of the outlet that will need to be cut or broken off so the two are no longer tied together. You will then land land the black wire on one of the screws and the red on the other one. This will make the outlet have constant power on either the top or bottom and the other only hot when you hit the switch for the garbage disposer. Usually the dishwasher plugs into the constant hot. Hope that all makes sense.

 

[lbhsbz]

Usually, the disposal is on a separate circuit from the other plug in the outlet. One outlet is the disposal with because it has a switch, the other is for a dishwasher.
You’ll need an electric meter or voltage tester to see which wire works off the switch. Most likely, it will be the red one. The black should be a constant HOT for the other outlet. The white should be the neutral.
There should be a tab between the 2 HOT screws on the side. That will need to be broken off so you don’t get a short from both circuits.

This.

I wouldn't bother checking to see which is hot and which is switched....I'd just break the tab on the hot side and put the black on top, red on the bottom (gold screws) and white to the other side (leave tab in place). Plug the disposal in after turning the power back on with the switch off....if it doesn't run, leave it there and plug the DW into the other one. If the disposal does run with the switch off, plug it into the other one.

 

[SoCalDave]

Usually, the disposal is on a separate circuit from the other plug in the outlet. One outlet is the disposal with because it has a switch, the other is for a dishwasher.
You’ll need an electric meter or voltage tester to see which wire works off the switch. Most likely, it will be the red one. The black should be a constant HOT for the other outlet. The white should be the neutral.
There should be a tab between the 2 HOT screws on the side. That will need to be broken off so you don’t get a short from both circuits.

This 100%

 

[SHEP]

Thank you for the help! Appreciate it.

Thank you,

SHEP

 

[SHEP]

Assuming this black part in the middle is the tab to break?

 

[Jay Dub]

This.

I wouldn't bother checking to see which is hot and which is switched....I'd just break the tab on the hot side and put the black on top, red on the bottom (gold screws) and white to the other side (leave tab in place). Plug the disposal in after turning the power back on with the switch off....if it doesn't run, leave it there and plug the DW into the other one. If the disposal does run with the switch off, plug it into the other one.

This (above) is what I have done several times thru the years. easy peasy

 

[SHEP]

Assuming this black part in the middle is the tab to break?

View attachment 1472031

Disregard, I found it.

Thanks!!

 

[Mandelon]

The likely scenario is that the red runs the disposal, the black runs the dishwasher. They share the neutral. (white) Don't break the tab off the neutral (silver) side. Only break the tab on the gold side where the red and black connect. It looks like a metal box, so maybe the previous fellow attached the ground to the box. Hard to tell in the photo if the box is metal. If it is, just screwing the outlet to the box should ground it. They will work without a ground, but there is a danger of shock if they are not grounded.

 

[Taboma]

Prior to installing the new receptacle.
Test between the Red and Black wires, if you have 220V, then the outlet is wire half-hot, half switched.
Now measure the voltage between a either the red or black wires to the white neutral wire. You should get 120V for each wire, now toggle the switch so you can determine which wire is switched.
Now measure between the non-switched hot and the metal box, if you get 120V, then the box has been grounded and the receptacle will be grounded through the frame. However, it would be best if you connected a jumper wire, green or bare, between that green screw on the receptacle and the box interior. There's more than likely a threaded hole for a 10/32 screw in the back of it.
Remove the small metal strap between the two brass side screws, which will split the receptacle.

Be careful not to be touching either wire when energized and any metal piping under the sink, it's going to hurt you and hurt you worse when you react to the shock and bang your head hard on one of many things.
Worse case, the 120V causes your muscles to seize up, and being unable to let go of the wire, you lay there loudly moaning until you --- well

 

[Flying_Lavey]

Prior to installing the new receptacle.
Test between the Red and Black wires, if you have 220V, then the outlet is wire half-hot, half switched.
Now measure the voltage between a either the red or black wires to the white neutral wire. You should get 120V for each wire, now toggle the switch so you can determine which wire is switched.
Now measure between the non-switched hot and the metal box, if you get 120V, then the box has been grounded and the receptacle will be grounded through the frame. However, it would be best if you connected a jumper wire, green or bare, between that green screw on the receptacle and the box interior. There's more than likely a threaded hole for a 10/32 screw in the back of it.
Remove the small metal strap between the two brass side screws, which will split the receptacle.

Be careful not to be touching either wire when energized and any metal piping under the sink, it's going to hurt you and hurt you worse when you react to the shock and bang your head hard on one of many things.
Worse case, the 120V causes your muscles to seize up, and being unable to let go of the wire, you lay there loudly moaning until you --- well

That is assuming the black and red are on 2 different circuits on each bus in the panel. Hot to hot on the same bus will read 0V (I know you know this, just stating that for the gen pop in here).

 

[Taboma]

That is assuming the black and red are on 2 different circuits on each bus in the panel. Hot to hot on the same bus will read 0V (I know you know this, just stating that for the gen pop in here).

Good catch sir, one very possible scenario I'd omitted that could be confusing unless they also checked each to neutral.

 

[Your ad here]

Get a continuity tester and put one end in the ground on the face of the outlet and poke the other end to the wires on the back. When it makes noise that is the ground wire. Match that one to the wires in the wall.

 

[Taboma]

Get a continuity tester and put one end in the ground on the face of the outlet and poke the other end to the wires on the back. When it makes noise that is the ground wire. Match that one to the wires in the wall.

WTF are you friggin high ?

 

[Your ad here]

WTF are you friggin high ?

He has the old outlet he cut out. Put a probe in the ground on the face of THAT outlet. Probe the CUT wires on the back. When it buzzes, that color wire on the outlet will be the ground on the wall.

 

[Taboma]

He has the old outlet he cut out. Put a probe in the ground on the face of THAT outlet. Probe the CUT wires on the back. When it buzzes, that color wire on the outlet will be the ground on the wall.

The picture of the old outlet shows a red and black on one side, and a bare one on the neutral side that he stated was the white. (Always the side with silver screws). The green screw on the bottom right corner has nothing connected to it. You have 3 conductors, a red, black and white protruding from the box.
If for some reason there was a wire coming off the green grounding screw, yet you had no wire coming from the neutral side, in other words, two hots a ground and no neutral, then the receptacle would have been DOA from day one.

 

[SoCalDave]

The house we live in was built in 1959 and did not have grounds in the romex. When we did our addition a couple of years ago I installed a new 200amp panel and upgraded all of the existing wiring.
Just saying he may not have a ground if built prior to the late 50's.

 

[Taboma]

The house we live in was built in 1959 and did not have grounds in the romex. When we did our addition a couple of years ago I installed a new 200amp panel and upgraded all of the existing wiring.
Just saying he may not have a ground if built prior to the late 50's.

Here's a thought to ponder. When you look around all the rooms in most people's homes, the vast majority of us could easily count on one hand, the number of devices plugged in with three wire plugs. Most of those are limited to the major kitchen appliances, laundry room and garage.
So what purpose are all these grounded receptacles serving ?
If a box is metal, then fine, but the vast majority for 50 years have been plastic.
Ground wires certainly serve a purpose with bathroom or outdoor lighting fixtures, but rarely if never are lights protected by a GFCI breaker anyway. So unless a fixture faulted sufficiently to trip the breaker, if you're barefooted on concrete, or grasping a faucet and touch it, OUCH if you're lucky, or it's a go meet Jesus event.

 

[lbhsbz]

Here's a thought to ponder. When you look around any room in most people's homes, the vast majority of us could easily count on one hand, the number of devices plugged in with three wire plugs. Most of those are limited to the major kitchen appliances, laundry room and garage.
So what purpose are all these grounded receptacles serving ?
If a box is metal, then fine, but the vast majority for 50 years have been plastic.
Ground wires certainly serve a purpose with bathroom or outdoor lighting fixtures, but rarely is never are lights protected by a GFCI breaker anyway. So unless a fixture faulted sufficiently to trip the breaker, if you're barefooted on concrete, or grasping a faucet and touch it, OUCH if you're lucky, or it's a go meet Jesus event.

You're being overly dramatic. 120V just tickles a bit.

 

[Your ad here]

You're being overly dramatic. 120V just tickles a bit.

120v is a zap or jolt. 240v your hands will grip and you end up dying because you can't let go. 480v just blows body parts off but you live.

 

[Taboma]

You're being overly dramatic. 120V just tickles a bit.

It can tickle under some circumstances and kill you slowly and painfully in many others.
The countless thousands who've perished in swimming pool deaths, frequently entire families, were all killed by 120V prior to the code upgrades and inception of GFCI protective devices. Those most unfortunate swimmers didn't die directly from electrocution, they died more slowly by drowning.
Many others died as they stepped out of the pool and grasp the hand rail, then couldn't let go of it.

The not being overly dramatic underlying danger of that piddly few 120V is, it happens to be the right voltage to cause your muscles to contract and seize.
In the trade, prior to GRCIs and double insulated tool handles, it was referred to as being "Hung Up". Back then, construction workers being electrocuted while using hand tools was not all that uncommon.

We'd actually been taught in our apprenticeship class, how if we had no other means to test for a hot wire --- not by touching it with your calloused inside of your finger, but the far more tender backside of it -- now trust me, that doesn't tickle, it hurts.
But the reasoning is, if your hand contracts, you won't grab the wire, you will contract away from it.
We were also taught how to recognize the symptoms of somebody being Hung Up, how they were unable to speak, but usually groaned or moaned and showed other obvious signs of distress.
We were also taught, under no circumstances run over and touch or grab the person.
Just remember, it's not the voltage that kills you, for humans a current between 100 to 200 milliamps (.1 & .2 amps) can be lethal.

In the late 60's I was walking past a plumber who was drilling a top plate, heard him groaning and noticed he as in serious distress, recognizing the symptoms and quickly got his extension cord unplugged, consequently saving his life.

I worked with a journeyman who saved a guy, but not so gentle as unplugging his cord, he knocked the guy off using a 2x4. when I inquired about unplugging it, he just looked at me, laughed and said "My way is a lot more fun"

 

[Taboma]

120v is a zap or jolt. 240v your hands will grip and you end up dying because you can't let go. 480v just blows body parts off but you live.

120V will certainly cause muscle contraction, and it's killed many thousands as a result. The vast majority of swimming pool deaths are due to drowning as a consequence of muscle contraction. Or swimmers emerging and grasping a ladder, then being unable to release it.

I've never experienced 240V doing that, despite getting hit with it plenty working circuits how in Germany. I think that could be simply because when you get across it, the resulting shock and amp flow just blows you right off it. Yet we know that tasers of extremely high voltage (Up to 10,000V), but with such minimal milliamp current, can cause your entire body to seize up rather than simply blow your limbs off.

My greatest respect for 480V, wasn't the shock factor, mostly because we'd take so many precautions when working it with hot gloves or pads, to protect us, it was the resulting plasma flame if a tool fell, or for any reason the 480V faulted to ground.
I had three very close friends I worked with receive horrible, life altering burns from 480V faulting and exploding. In one case, the copper plasma flame front came out of a small hole yet resulted in 80% of his body being burned.

 

[Flying_Lavey]

120v is a zap or jolt. 240v your hands will grip and you end up dying because you can't let go. 480v just blows body parts off but you live.

I've been bit by 24v, 120, 208, 240, 360 (stepped up off a wotor winding), and 460v. I always put myself into a position where I'm balanced and can easily fall to a side or away from the wiring if i tense up in anyway.

I've had so many arguments with overly cautious safety guys that insist I turn off equipment before opening the control panels to trouble shoot. They'd get even more shocked when I wasn't wearing electrically rated gloves.

It's all about being cautious and being away of what you are doing and wear the precise dangers are.

 

[Nordie]

120V will certainly cause muscle contraction, and it's killed many thousands as a result. The vast majority of swimming pool deaths are due to drowning as a consequence of muscle contraction. Or swimmers emerging and grasping a ladder, then being unable to release it.

I've never experienced 240V doing that, despite getting hit with it plenty working circuits how in Germany. I think that could be simply because when you get across it, the resulting shock and amp flow just blows you right off it. Yet we know that tasers of extremely high voltage (Up to 10,000V), but with such minimal milliamp current, can cause your entire body to seize up rather than simply blow your limbs off.

My greatest respect for 480V, wasn't the shock factor, mostly because we'd take so many precautions when working it with hot gloves or pads, to protect us, it was the resulting plasma flame if a tool fell, or for any reason the 480V faulted to ground.
I had three very close friends I worked with receive horrible, life altering burns from 480V faulting and exploding. In one case, the copper plasma flame front came out of a small hole yet resulted in 80% of his body being burned.

I was using my grandpa's old metal handled skill-saw. Anyhow the wires were frayed right where the cord bends when you're cutting 2x's. So I was cutting some 2x4s and laid that frayed portion on the inside of my forearm. It took an act of God to let go of that fucking saw. That saw was full trigger when I got hit, so I'm guessing that old bastard was using all 15 amps. I also ended up with a nice burn as well.

I always joked around that if I saw someone getting shocked on a jobsite I'd wack them with a 2x4.

Was also taught 120 is what holds you in, after that 220 will blow you off.

 

[oldman]

"Typically" the hot or 120 will be on the right side of the plug when your facing it, the split plug has been addressed with cutting the tab, and then getting the right appliance into the right plug.

short answer.

 

[Your ad here]

I've been bit by 24v, 120, 208, 240, 360 (stepped up off a wotor winding), and 460v. I always put myself into a position where I'm balanced and can easily fall to a side or away from the wiring if i tense up in anyway.

I've had so many arguments with overly cautious safety guys that insist I turn off equipment before opening the control panels to trouble shoot. They'd get even more shocked when I wasn't wearing electrically rated gloves.

It's all about being cautious and being away of what you are doing and wear the precise dangers are.

My dads buddy got zapped by a 360 line. Threw his ass back about 12 feet and arms were locked in the defense position. Had to wait 45 minutes before he could move his arms again then went back to work.
I have 480 volt equipment. I was hesitant about it and called a family friend that used the same equipment and 400 hertz equipment. Told me equipment doesn't have a conscience. It doesn't give a shit if it hurts you or kills you. With that said just make sure plug connections are tight and be respectful to the equipment.

 

[MPHSystems]

@Taboma to the white courtesy phone...or @The Chicken or...?
I can only promise sparks and profanity...and maybe hitting your head on the drain

When I was an apprentice, my journeyman would always have me trim out the kitchen. When I was doing the dishwasher, garbage disposal circuits, he‘d get all the other guys together around and pluck hairs out of my legs. We used to wear shorts back then. Fall restraint was hey “I’ll hold onto your hammer so you don’t reach out too far”.

anyways, he done the hair plucking trick on me a couple times, and I’ve had enough of it. I walked up behind him with my linemens and grabbed a big clump of his hair ripped it out of his skull. Lol. He turned around and just looked at me like an idiot and said that didn’t hurt lol. Anyways, I think that was the last time I had to trim the kitchen.

OP, if anybody didn’t tell you yet, you got a cut the tab between the two copper screws. Red goes the top copper screw black goes to the bottom copper screw and white goes to one of the silver screws. Your handy box is probably bonded and your receptacle has self bonding screws. Put a plate on it, you’re done.

 

[Taboma]

My dads buddy got zapped by a 360 line. Threw his ass back about 12 feet and arms were locked in the defense position. Had to wait 45 minutes before he could move his arms again then went back to work.
I have 480 volt equipment. I was hesitant about it and called a family friend that used the same equipment and 400 hertz equipment. Told me equipment doesn't have a conscience. It doesn't give a shit if it hurts you or kills you. With that said just make sure plug connections are tight and be respectful to the equipment.

Complete or partial seizure, including losing the ability to breath, isn't uncommon following any substantial shock.
The severity of having electrical current pass through our bodies is all determined by the voltage, the current, and most of all, where it enters & where it leaves, as these two factors determine it's path.
As an example 120V, same hand finger to finger --- on the calloused side of hand, minor jolt an audible "F*ck", and usually your reaction banging your elbow, will result in more pain than the shock.
Same voltage, one hand to the other, across your chest making substantial contact with the line and return path conductors, and you're able to jerk away, minimal damage and most being seriously pissed off.
Same scenario, you get hung up and can't let go, same path across chest or from hand to opposite leg or foot, and you're in deep shit and are well on your way to meet the Lord.

There's a million variables, like the story of what happened to one of my guys.
Had one of my best electricians who after working 18 hours with no sleep bringing a new electrical substation online at North Island Navy Base, made a very bad mistake that should have proved fatal.
The short of it was --- he was shocked by 5,000 volts that entered his right knuckle and exited the right knee cap and was saved by his co-worker that heard him grunt and yanked him off it by his belt.
He should have been dead and mutilated, he wasn't, he should have been unconscious, he wasn't, he should have been in shock, he wasn't, he was essentially fine but I insisted I at least drive him to the hospital and hour later they released him and I sent him home.
30 years later when I last saw him, he still has a pin hole in his knuckle where it entered and a matching one in his kneecap where it exited, but he was otherwise unaffected by that event that should have killed him. Why didn't it

I know the 400Z motors and other electrical components are lighter and smaller, but I'd think the cost would outweigh any benefits.

 

[Taboma]

"Typically" the hot or 120 will be on the right side of the plug when your facing it, the split plug has been addressed with cutting the tab, and then getting the right appliance into the right plug.

short answer.

120V Receptacle slot and terminal identification.

120V Receptacles prior to the adoption of 3rd ground wires, were polarized, as were most plugs. The hot being short, the neutral being the longer of the two slots.
Plugs were designed polarized to match the receptacles so they could only be plugged in one way.
Facing the receptacle, the shorter hot slot was on the right and the longer neutral slot on the left.
Hot side terminal screws were brass or a dark color, neutral were always tinted a bright silver or chrome.

With the addition of the 3rd green or bare grounding wire, the U-slot was added, but the hot and neutral slot polarization remained the same, in this manner un-grounded cords and plugs could still retain their proper polarization.
Screw terminals are still brass or dark for the hot and silver or chrome for the neutral. Green screw was added for the ground wire.

Code doesn't specify which way a receptacle should be oriented, u-ground up, or u-ground down, or sideways, it doesn't care.

Hospitals were known to have their receptacles mounted upside down or U-ground on top, the thought was that especially in areas of high oxygen levels, even a small spark could flash and that with the ground on top, anything falling would hit it, not short between the hot and neutral prongs.

I've seen them mounted both ways in Hospitals.

Years ago I was taught that switched receptacles should be mounted U-ground on top in order to identify them, with the hot slots below, and the switched on the bottom. When I wired our new home, that's how I did them. Not sure if that's still 'A Thing' or not, I'll have to ask my kid sparky.

 

[Taboma]

That is assuming the black and red are on 2 different circuits on each bus in the panel. Hot to hot on the same bus will read 0V (I know you know this, just stating that for the gen pop in here).

I was in a bit of a hurry when I initially responded to this great observation. In that regard, I would like to add something I omitted previously.

You shouldn't expect to encounter two separate individual circuits sharing a common neutral, ever. If you do, you've got a problem that requires correction.
That scenario is likely to overload a common neutral.
You can only share a common neutral between two separate individual circuits if they are on opposite phases, as they will then cancel each other out on the return neutral rather than being additive.

Two hots on two circuits of the same phase, will require that they each have their own neutral.