New type of electrical transmission conductor might be a game changer

[rrrr]

A couple of days ago I discovered information about TS Conductors. They have engineered a longline transmission conductor which abandons the 100+ year old aluminum conductor type that has a steel core for strength. That type is known as Aluminum Conductor Steel Reinforced, or ACSR, cable.

The conductor being developed by TS replaces the steel core with a flexible carbon fiber matrix. The product reduces weight significantly. That, and its smaller core diameter allows an increase in the mass and current carrying capacity of the aluminum outer aluminum. It also uses fewer and shorter support towers, because the reduced weight and increased strength results in less cable elongation under high temperatures.

This is the first production ready product I've seen that can have a positive impact on the hopelessly outdated and inadequate nationwide electrical distribution system. The obsolescense of the grid, which will be overwhelmed by the politically forced transition to EVs and replacement of natural gas appliances, has been completely ignored by the authorities, media, and populace.

I'm going off the rails for a moment. All the talk of the complete eletrification of society, carbon free energy production, and abandonment of fossil fuels by 2050 is astonishingly ignorant. It cannot, and will not occur. However, the modernization and expansion of the country's electrical distribution system is required to provide the demands of AI, population growth, increasing temperature trends, and the addition of terawatts of generation capacity.

Those generation terawatts must include natural gas and nuclear facilities. It is absolute folly to think that wind and solar generation will suffice for the needs of this country for the next 100 years. This also applies to societies worldwide. Forcing the countries of Africa to rely on wind and solar generation will doom some 2.5 billion people to desperate poverty and depopulation. Right now many of them still rely on burning wood for energy, and the insane dictates of Western ideology could lead to massive uprisings across the continent.

TS Conductors:

TS Conductor Pioneers A New Electricity Conductor Which Can Increase Capacity Up to 300% Compared to Traditional ACSR Equipment - Industrial Innovation

Though originally put into place in the 1890s, initially designed to deliver electricity to consumers at a monthly cost based on consumption, the U.S. transmission system is more important than ever in the increasingly digital age.

www.industrial-innovation.com

 

[Willie B]

… Very interesting… We will see how this evolves

 

[Xring01]

Nexans was building a previous generation of this tech years ago.

The future on the west requires coated , covered or non arcing conductors for the West Coast, due to wild fire potential.

Look AMSC Chicago super conductor project.

 

[Sleek-Jet]

They've been working on that for a while. But it is going to cost money and no one is willing to pay.

Get used to being cold in the winter and hot in the summer, and reading by LED head lamps at night.

 

[Flying_Lavey]

A couple of days ago I discovered information about TS Conductors. They have engineered a longline transmission conductor which abandons the 100+ year old aluminum conductor type that has a steel core for strength. That type is known as Aluminum Conductor Steel Reinforced, or ACSR, cable.

The conductor being developed by TS replaces the steel core with a flexible carbon fiber matrix. The product reduces weight significantly. That, and its smaller core diameter allows an increase in the mass and current carrying capacity of the aluminum outer aluminum. It also uses fewer and shorter support towers, because the reduced weight and increased strength results in less cable elongation under high temperatures.

This is the first production ready product I've seen that can have a positive impact on the hopelessly outdated and inadequate nationwide electrical distribution system. The obsolescense of the grid, which will be overwhelmed by the politically forced transition to EVs and replacement of natural gas appliances, has been completely ignored by the authorities, media, and populace.

I'm going off the rails for a moment. All the talk of the complete eletrification of society, carbon free energy production, and abandonment of fossil fuels by 2050 is astonishingly ignorant. It cannot, and will not occur. However, the modernization and expansion of the country's electrical distribution system is required to provide the demands of AI, population growth, increasing temperature trends, and the addition of terawatts of generation capacity.

Those generation terawatts must include natural gas and nuclear facilities. It is absolute folly to think that wind and solar generation will suffice for the needs of this country for the next 100 years. This also applies to societies worldwide. Forcing the countries of Africa to rely on wind and solar generation will doom some 2.5 billion people to desperate poverty and depopulation. Right now many of them still rely on burning wood for energy, and the insane dictates of Western ideology could lead to massive uprisings across the continent.

TS Conductors:

TS Conductor Pioneers A New Electricity Conductor Which Can Increase Capacity Up to 300% Compared to Traditional ACSR Equipment - Industrial Innovation

Though originally put into place in the 1890s, initially designed to deliver electricity to consumers at a monthly cost based on consumption, the U.S. transmission system is more important than ever in the increasingly digital age.

www.industrial-innovation.com

I know you were a utility side guy, but do you have any idea what kind of loss the modern ACSR cables have over certain distances?

 

[monkeyswrench]

I know very little about electricity and it's rules. How does this cable guard loss, and how does it transfer more? Are the transfer gains just by being able to carry more conductors?

 

[lbhsbz]

The greenies don't like carbon, but carbon fiber is good?

I don't get it.

 

[Taboma]

I know very little about electricity and it's rules. How does this cable guard loss, and how does it transfer more? Are the transfer gains just by being able to carry more conductors?

Good question
Although not my sparky field, it's my understanding that with higher voltages used for transmission, the current carrying electrons travel more on the surface, versus lower voltages traveling more within or through.
In that regard, I would be led to believe that the lighter core would enable a larger diameter cable utilizing the weight saving advantage of the carbon fiber carrier wire.

 

[rrrr]

Good question
Although not my sparky field, it's my understanding that with higher voltages used for transmission, the current carrying electrons travel more on the surface, versus lower voltages traveling more within or through.
In that regard, I would be led to believe that the lighter core would enable a larger diameter cable utilizing the weight saving advantage of the carbon fiber carrier wire.

I had really good knowledge about skin effect beginning in 1988 when I was regularly installing 415 Hz motorgenerators and static UPS systems for IBM and Amdahl mainframes. It required all sorts of strange calculations, and the conductors had to be run in rigid aluminum conduit because of inductive heating generated in steel conduit at the higher frequency.

Like a lot of the highly technical stuff I used almost daily, I don't remember shit about the subject now.

 

[rrrr]

I know you were a utility side guy, but do you have any idea what kind of loss the modern ACSR cables have over certain distances?

I don't. @Xring01 would know those answers.

 

[Big B Hova]

The title of this thread seems spammy like gummies.... just sayin

 

[Xring01]

I don't. @Xring01 would know those answers.

The higher the voltages, the more “skin effect” occurs.
I am no expert on overhead.

I worked on alot of 138kv, 230kv underground cable projects with PG&E and NVE. We installed over 1 million feet of 138kv between them. In Las Vegas, near Ceasars Palace, on Flamingo Blvd (pretty sure thats it), you will see a 138kv overhead cross I 15, It hits a Tapered Tubular pole, and transitions to underground cable, goes under the road for about 2 miles and comes back up into a substation.

I did about a dozen projects like that for NVE over the years. Alot more in PG&E territory.

At 138kv we are not really worried about skin effect… at 230kv, at larger cable diameters. Nexans would enamel coat every 12th or 13th conductor, in a milliken conductor. That basically allowed us to get 5000kcmil ampacity’s in a 4000kcmil size cable. It was really cool tech that truly had a great ROI / cost benefit. But below 3000kcmil conductors it really wasn’t needed, had no ROI for the addedd cost of enameled conductor.

In the overhead world… if you replace the “steel” in the conductor with lighter weight carbon fiber… you imediately reduce the weight of the cable which has great benefits. If you can add more current carring conductor, then you increase the ampacity in the same diameter of the cable.

But getting more amps in the exact same aluminum strand… yeah… thats not adding up to me, unless your start using metal alloys with lower loss’s than traditional aluminum.

Back to my previous post… Game changer is Super Conducting cables. Nexans and AMSC did a huge DOE project in Chicago. I had nothing to do with it, but damn… it solved some serious problems, allowed the utility to remove a huge transmission substation, and be able to meet N - 2 conditions in down town Chicago. Prior they where massively overloaded every day. That project would have never happened unless the DOE opened up their check book. The fact they did, and the project was a huge success. Proved the technology and the potential to save alot of money and how to beef of the grids in the most densely populated urban areas.

 

[Taboma]

For those members reading this that don't understand what Xring means by "Milliken Cable", here's an image showing a cross section of various sizes of Milliken underground cable and how it's constructed.

I know some of you guys really enjoy cool machinery, this is a very interesting website for a company in France who manufactures machines for producing this type of underground cable.

Archives des Milliken - SETIC

Pourtier supplies Rotating Cable Machinery to produce Power cable of the so called Milliken type for High Voltage Cables and Extra High Voltage Cables.

www.setic-pourtier.com

"The electrical power cable called Milliken
The electrical power cable of the so called Milliken type is constructed with up to six identical segments formed with an outer cylindrical profile and a hollow core. Each segment is formed by laying a number of individual cores.
These last years have pointed out a significant increase of the power that needs to be transported by underground power cables. As a consequence, large cross section conductors, up to 2500mm² are now customarily used."

 

[Maw]

Cool read, I always considered skin effect losses to be a simple function of current density and frequency.

 

[Sleek-Jet]

I know you were a utility side guy, but do you have any idea what kind of loss the modern ACSR cables have over certain distances?

It's complicated and involves not only the resistance of the material, but also the different layers and how the wire is wound into the cable and even air temperature and wind speed.

Roughly, the larger the cross section of the current conducting wire, the lower the losses and the higher ampacity.

Like Xring said, The big advantage I can see of this carbon fiber core wire is lower weight. That would allow existing transmission lines to be reconductored with larger cable without having to change the structures. That is a huge cost savings.

 

[Taboma]

It's complicated and involves not only the resistance of the material, but also the different layers and how the wire is wound into the cable and even air temperature and wind speed.

Roughly, the larger the cross section of the current conducting wire, the lower the losses and the higher ampacity.

Like Xring said, The big advantage I can see of this carbon fiber core wire is lower weight. That would allow existing transmission lines to be reconductored with larger cable without having to change the structures. That is a huge cost savings.

Then the article boasts of fewer towers and longer spans. So unless this new cable also provides for improved conductivity, not sure how you can both increase cable cross section which inherently increases weight, AND increase span distance. Would seem it's one or the other

 

[Wizard29]

How does this stuff splice? I've also heard that these conductors are relatively fragile. Any mishandling or impact can fracture the carbon core and weaken the cable as a whole. Then if field/aerial splicing is problematic, you've got a big issue on your hands.

 

[rrrr]

Then the article boasts of fewer towers and longer spans. So unless this new cable also provides for improved conductivity, not sure how you can both increase cable cross section which inherently increases weight, AND increase span distance. Would seem it's one or the other

The cross section of the support portion of the cable, carbon fiber vs steel, is smaller, yet stronger and lighter. CF doesn't elongate under higher temperatures. That allows higher cable tension, along with shorter towers and increased distances between them.

The reduced cross section and weight of the CF also allows for a larger cross section of aluminum conductor in the package compared to ACSR, increasing potential ampacity.

 

[Angler]

The title of this thread seems spammy like gummies.... just sayin

TS conductor should never be used in a sentence.

 

[Taboma]

The cross section of the support portion of the cable, carbon fiber vs steel, is smaller, yet stronger and lighter. CF doesn't elongate under higher temperatures. That allows higher cable tension, along with shorter towers and increased distances between them.

The reduced cross section and weight of the CF also allows for a larger cross section of aluminum conductor in the package compared to ACSR, increasing potential ampacity.

Thanks, that explains how they achieve both advantages.

 

[Nanu/Nanu]

To answer @Flying_Lavey question about line losses in overhead conductor theres some variables to account for. The easiest ways to combat it would be to either raise your input voltage or increase the conductor size. Theres way more complicated things but this is simple thinking.

If you are curious if you are suffering from line losses at home a simple voltage reading at your panel or outlets will give you your answer.

Our range is 5% of 120/240. So anything less than 114 volts is too low 126 is to high. I would consider talking with your utility company if your voltage falls outside that spec or is close to meeting it.

The way our utility company combats voltage loss for sub transmission voltage is with use of capacitor banks or voltage regulators. We dont have a loop system and we have miles upon miles of #2 acsr.

To continue on with the original topic. We were just talking about this wire the other day at work. Something we heard that was an issue was the tension strength. So my understanding is carbon fiber is strong but not when under tension. Im not sure though. Another thing that seems to be becoming more popular for transmission voltages is DC. I guess it doesn't suffer from line losses like AC does. I only catch things here and there. Theres some way smarter guys than me on here that probably have a better explanations. im just the bone head who works on the stuff in the field.