new to RDP need setup help on a fast 25 step v bottom

[HST4ME]

View attachment 1427150 I downloaded the video off instagram of his desert storm run so you guys can see what’s going on.

Yeah that's ugly...

 

[HAP]

I would agree with trying out props to see which makes the best change. I would start with less pitch to see if it's actually pitch climbing.
I have a 16' with a NA Ford 572 and it jumps hops to where it will go out of control over 86 gps and that's where I let up. But it's an old heavy family type ski hull that was never intended to see over 45mph.

Hope you get to where you are trying to be.
R,
HAP

 

[25worldclass]

I have run less pitch the 32 is worse than the 30 my 28 is on the rev limiter all the time the boat might handle a little better but I think it's only due to huge loss of speed. Motor could pull a 34 but I'm not stupid enough to try it again. Lol

 

[25worldclass]

34 was lazy but fast deceleration was downright dangerous I let out of it at 108 5600 rpm and climbing and the boat tried to throw me over the side while it was swapping sides and trying to crash

 

[25worldclass]

The 32 is better and probably fastest prop. 30 handles better yet but at the cost of 5 to 7 mph. I need to go see hill and have my props worked on I know he can make them better, reduce stern lift.

 

[25worldclass]

I think the 30 will be the best prop after prop work. The boat has always liked the smaller pitched of 2 props then lab it and add some tip pitch, generally when I have tried to get a bigger prop cut back a bit it never drives as good as the next pitch down then worked up.

 

[GregG]

You keep talking about different pitch in the same model props. Pitch is a fine tune end of the line item.

Your hull is a 24 degree raised pad V. The serpentine steps play no roll at your high speeds. List which different make/model props you have tried so far?

 

[25worldclass]

So far I have tried all bravo 1 props in the 4 blades. I have also tried some max 5, maximus, and hydromotive 5 blades with no luck. Boat hates 5 blades so far. I have not tried any other brands - models due to lack of availability to me. I was going to call bblades and get his opinion on what I should try next. maybe have him ship me a test prop or 2. Everything that I can come across to try that isn't a bravo 1 seems to be 25 or less and I know that would be a waste of time with my power.

 

[GregG]

Test a Solas Scorpion and a Merc Rev 4 in the biggest pitch they offer. to see what they do for your handling and hop. Should be able to get a test option on both.

 

[25worldclass]

Tried lifting the tabs today to see if it helps boat does all sorts of weird things as soon as you move them they only like to be set at about an inch down at the tips any more and it noses in terrible, neutral or lifted it chines constantly and feels extremely unstable and mushy if that makes sense. with tabs lifted it takes twice the steering input to get a reaction from it. tried this at basically every drive trim setting with my 32 and 30 pitch prop. I know I need to try other props just trying to gather as much info as possible

 

[25worldclass]

Is it a possibility that the 1.34 gear ratio is spinning the prop too fast and causing the stern lift ? Maybe 1.50 gears and slowing the prop speed down would help. When I installed the scx/sc combo I went with the faster gear ratio because whenever I had run more pitch the boat didn't drive as well. I installed it planning on the whipple and just stepped back one pitch and it seemed to work fine but that was only at 91 mph. I was afraid that with boost more pitch would hurt how it drives so I opted to spin it faster instead wonder if that was a mistake ?

 

[pixrthis]

Did you race this boat in POPRA years ago? Do you know Lance Hendrickson? There’s a chance he built the boat and he knows more about making Warlocks run than anybody out there although you’re in uncharted territory. He played with various strakes that he could change on a 29 Warlock which shares some bottom design characteristics although it was a A class boat and not as fast as yours he may of learned things that be useful to you. He helped us a lot with our F1 Warlocks with CG location. At your speeds the lower unit will effect the boat in ways I never experienced. Good luck, they’re great boats.

 

[GregG]

Did you race this boat in POPRA years ago? Do you know Lance Hendrickson? There’s a chance he built the boat and he knows more about making Warlocks run than anybody out there although you’re in uncharted territory. He played with various strakes that he could change on a 29 Warlock which shares some bottom design characteristics although it was a A class boat and not as fast as yours he may of learned things that be useful to you. He helped us a lot with our F1 Warlocks with CG location. At your speeds the lower unit will effect the boat in ways I never experienced. Good luck, they’re great boats.

You are spot on, Lance is a wealth of knowledge on the serpentine Warlock hulls. I believe he is still with Boatswains Locker in SoCal.

 

[pixrthis]

You are spot on, Lance is a wealth of knowledge on the serpentine Warlock hulls. I believe he is still with Boatswains Locker in SoCal.

I can get his number for you if you need it. I do think you’re in a different speed realm than any Warlock v bottom has gone so it maybe trial and error. I drove three different F1 boats and the one that had the sport master was hard to drive but at your speed I’m not sure what applies anymore. For F1, because of Lance, we moved everything as far back as possible and the boats kept getting better and better as we continued to do so.

 

[25worldclass]

It would be great if I could get his number

 

[GregG]

With big power I have a very hard time believing that any modification to the strakes is needed at all. A raised pad V is designed to pop up on that pad and ride only on the pad. Strakes play no role at those speeds at all. Fuel slosh can play a role if not baffled properly but that can be determined by running it 100% full of fuel and then again at close to empty.

 

[25worldclass]

Yeah after watching my videos in slow mo I tend to agree about the strakes. Fuel slosh could be an issue but it seems to do the same thing full as it does half full or even on the more empty side. To me it seems like prop climb is what's killing me. As soon as the hull leaves the water in the rear it shoves the nose down, kinda seems like the only thing in the water at the point where it makes the change is the prop. Seems like the prop climbing is what's doing it.

 

[25worldclass]

From what I was told and I do have some info on it this boat was built for a race driver for warlock in 02 who eventually went to laveycraft. They did race it a little bit for about 2 years. I'll dig out the info and refresh my memory.

 

[25worldclass]

So the according to my paperwork the boat was built and rigged by Jeff Camire for Bobby Griffith and raced 2 years factory p-2 . Not sure how much truth is in that just something written down on a small notepad paper

 

[25worldclass]

I just got off the phone with Lance super nice guy by the way. We had a good talk about the boat and what I have tried and what I need to try. His advice is props and balance, maybe bolting lead to the box on the back of the boat after first transfering as much weight aft as possible. He said at my speeds its not a strake issue its all about balance and getting rid of stern lift.

 

[GregG]

Plenty of transom options ...........

 

[HCP3]

I bet @lavey jr can help out with info about Jeff Camire's history with this boat and Lavey's NuEra.

 

[Gelcoater]

So the according to my paperwork the boat was built and rigged by Jeff Camire for Bobby Griffith and raced 2 years factory p-2 . Not sure how much truth is in that just something written down on a small notepad paper

Jeff was a gelcoat guy primarily, but I suppose it’s possible.
I’d sooner believe his brother Chris rigged it as he’s a rigger.

I just got off the phone with Lance super nice guy by the way. We had a good talk about the boat and what I have tried and what I need to try. His advice is props and balance, maybe bolting lead to the box on the back of the boat after first transfering as much weight aft as possible. He said at my speeds its not a strake issue its all about balance and getting rid of stern lift.

Lance is a character, a bunch of years ago in the Glamis circle he was nicknamed....
T Bone

 

[25worldclass]

I'm going to go see my prop guy next week. I have 3 props that I'm going to have worked on, a 30, a merc labbed 32, and a box stock 32 that a friend gave me that is dinged up a bit but not bad. I have also ordered some lead to start weighting the transom. Hopefully I can get it under control without adding too much weight I'm hoping to see 115 at LOTTO next year.

 

[GregG]

If the hull was built for race work it will have a full height bulkhead under the deck. I don't like lead on the drive to start, would do 50 lb sand bags on each of the swim platforms and double bag them then lash with HD zips. Very easy to add of adjust for port or starboard and reduce or add weight.

 

[25worldclass]

Lance was saying to try to keep the weight low and centered. I know for initial testing purposes to figure out how many lbs it will take the sand bag idea is the easiest and cheapest way to figure it out. What do you think about keeping the weight in the center vs out on the corners ? Lance was saying try to put it as low and centered as possible to help with the chine which those boats are kind of known for.

 

[GregG]

Yep he is correct, but that is at the end of the process after experimenting.

 

[25worldclass]

what do you mean by full height bulkhead ? it has bulkheads that run floor to deck 2" material that have the centers cut out but overbuilt looking compared to some other boats I have seen.

 

[GregG]

Round cut out? Snap an under deck photo

 

[25worldclass]

So I finally got the time to take my props in to hill to have some prop work done on them, I showed them footage of the boat running and he said that it's not a prop issue. He is going to work up my 30 and do a custom lab on a 32 for me but he said that no prop work or different prop is going to fix my issue with the boat hop and nosing in. He said it's definitely the hook that's in the bottom and the tabs being down an inch. So here's my question without dragging the tabs the boat chine's uncontrollably at any speed over about 50 so if i have to drag the tabs to keep it from chine walking will removing the hook do anything for me ? I'm not arguing that the hook should not be there but is there any way to stop the chine without dragging the tabs ?

 

[25worldclass]

I removed the hook in the pad today going to test in the morning. The bottom is not perfect but 95 percent of the hook is gone. Hopefully there is a noticeable difference it had about an 8th to 3/16 between the lower strakes across the pad. Now it has almost none, couple tiny low spots but they are quite a ways forward. Most of the hook was in the last 8 to 10 inches of the pad

 

[25worldclass]

I drove the boat today in what would basically be the worst conditions possible smooth lazy water, my worst handling prop 32 merc lab barrel cut, under 1/2 tank of fuel, and just me in the boat which hurts side balance. I can tell that sanding the hook out made the boat more free on the water with some reduction in stuffing the nose. Also sanding the bottom allowed me to run less tabs more neutral. I also made one pass with tabs lifted all the way up and the boat took power decently and only started to chine under deceleration but it was pretty bad. After a few passes with different trim and tab settings I found that instead of dragging an inch of tab I could cut that down to around half an inch of tab instead and the boat still climbed out of the water and hopped as usual but it seemed to stuff the nose slightly less than before. I guess we will see when I get my other props back what happens then.

 

[havasujeeper]

I'd love to see a pic or two with how you sanded the bottom!

 

[25worldclass]

I jacked the trailer up as high as I could since the hook was just in the pad between the bunks and I got out a 17 inch air straight line body sander, a D/A sander and some long flat oak boards of different lengths and widths and went to town. Used a 6 foot aluminum straight edge and started to flatten the hook out from the back. Had to go about a foot forwards. Sand a little, check with straight edge, repeat. Also use sharpie and straight edge to keep lines straight. Also used those plastic 3m stick on picture hooke on the bottom as guides to ride my 17 inch air and longer hand blocks along to keep lines straight

 

[25worldclass]

It was miserable next time the motor comes out I will flip it and perfect the lines and flatten it out to perfection

 

[ToMorrow44]

Just read thru this entire thread and I’ll share my experience as I know it. For context, I had an Advantage 27 Victory with a Teague 825 that ran mid 80s but liked to chinewalk. So I did a ton of research on fast single engine v-bottoms to see how they were setup.

Drive height: most fast v bottoms running over 100 (Howard’s, Lavey crafts, etc) had the drive set 2-3” below the keel and some extreme cases were even with the keel (I think some of the Lavey 28 Evos were set up this way). I believe the orange 28 Howard that ran 120 was around 2” below the keel.

Extension box: when you move the drive aft with an extension box, it effectively lowers the X dimension. The rule of thumb is that moving the drive back 12” (IMCO box), you need to raise the drive 2”. With the 7” ITS, maybe call that 1”.

I would play with spacers and try to move your drive up a bit. I think 3.5” below the keel is too deep on the ITS box.

Props: generally the Bravo 1s seem to be the best handling for these boats. Like Hill said, no prop is going to solve what you’re experiencing. That being said, have you tried a Merc Max 5? Teague had had great success with those and said it even calmed down the handling of some very bottoms (I think a 28 Nordic in particular).

General rule of thumb: larger diameter, more blades, and longer hub tubes/flares increase stern lift.

Blueprinting: I had a shop out east here look at blueprinting my hull as they had done several other vee bottoms. But after examining it and test driving it, they told me to leave it alone. They said there’s no guarantee it goes faster or handles better, and that they really liked the way the boat drive because it did everything else right. It’s just not a fast hull

That being said, what you’re describing in terms of excess lift is almost identical to the Lavey 2750. The lift was great to make it run 75mph with a 496, but too much lift for 800+ hp. The fix that they ended up changing the mold was to remove some of the rear strakes to reduce stern lift. Not sure if @lavey jr is on these boards anymore, but he and his dad work for Eliminator and would be able to give you some of their experience.

In Havasu, one of the setup masters is Brad Stewart formerly of ETicket. No idea where he’s at now, maybe another member has his contact info. But if you can find him, he would be a good person to ask. He’s also blueprinted a lot of the IMCO lowers to help speed and handling.

Finally, probably the best piece of advice I heard (not sure if this was Bob or John Teague): if you want a fast single engine vee bottom, buy a Howard Bullet. Some hulls just aren’t designed to do what you want with them (my 27 Victory included lol) no matter how much money you dump into them. But there’s a lot of 28 Howard’s out there running 100+ with very good handling. But you won’t have the rough water handling that a Warlock or LaveyCraft is designed for. It’s all a trade off .

Hope that helps! Sorry for the long post. Good luck!

 

[havasujeeper]

I tend to agree with the above poster

I have mold #1 for the Warlock World Class 25. Carter Reed did a lot of trials using my boat with much tweaking but knew it was prone to Chine walk. He added the longest K Planes available, which settled things down, but I am only running a 454HP, so my speeds only top out at about 70.

 

[GregG]

I tend to agree with the above poster

I have mold #1 for the Warlock World Class 25. Carter Reed did a lot of trials using my boat with much tweaking but knew it was prone to Chine walk. He added the longest K Planes available, which settled things down, but I am only running a 454HP, so my speeds only top out at about 70.

Agree with you, the serpentine step evolved a bit. That said, running 1,000 hp and 110 mph produces some unique hydro dynamic forces for a 25.

 

[25worldclass]

Well hopefully the longer tabs help a bit to settle things down some. I have tried max 5's and maximus props and the boat absolutely hated them that was with the drive height at 2 inches below. So far I'm still chipping away at the poor handling. It's still making small improvements as I go. At this point I'm basically done trying to make that boat faster, just trying to get it to drive better. If it runs a solid 110 it will still be one of the faster single v boats around these parts. I will be playing with some spacers after I get my props back. I'm thinking of going back up with the drive to reduce how the prop has to climb up to get to the surface. Last time the drive was at 2 inches I was running 5 blade props so maybe the 4 blades will work at those heights. I know it's a fine line going up before you loose the ability to carry the bow. I'll just keep testing and throwing my wallet at it for now and see what develops.

 

[havasujeeper]

We will still be watching this thread closely hoping you can resolve this 23 year old issue.

 

[25worldclass]

Got my props back should be testing soon just waiting for a day with some water with some chop been pretty flat lately. Hopefully the hook removal with some added bow lift in the props will help things out some.

 

[Blackmagic94]

We will still be watching this thread closely hoping you can resolve this 23 year old issue.

lol

 

[GregG]

Got my props back should be testing soon just waiting for a day with some water with some chop been pretty flat lately. Hopefully the hook removal with some added bow lift in the props will help things out some.

Why wait, always good to test in all conditions