New build Eliminator 27 Speedster

[DaveC]

Here were the results of the leak down test done by Teague last summer. I just noticed it. All cylinders leaking on a brand new engine.

At this point the engine had only 7 hours and should be broken in by now.

 

[DaveC]

Compression 9.5:1.

Cam: 256/264 @ .50 duration, 632 lift, 114 LS

 

[hallett21]

How’d the boat run the other day with eliminator ?


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[DaveC]

Nothing new to report. Moving the drive down did not improve the results.

We gotta try one more thing. Not sure when that is going to happen though.

I also decided to find an engine tuner. I need to work on that also.

How’d the boat run the other day with eliminator ?


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[Husqy510]

We just built a very similar motor for our Howard cat, but we're running 10.5:1 compression and we made 725hp on the dyno with no accessories and dry exhaust. You're probably making low 600's with a good tune.

 

[Cole Trickle]

We just built a very similar motor for our Howard cat, but we're running 10.5:1 compression and we made 725hp on the dyno with no accessories and dry exhaust. You're probably making low 600's with a good tune.

Why would you think this motor is making 100 less hp with only 1 point less compression?

That point should only be 25-50 hp I would think.

 

[Husqy510]

Why would you think this motor is making 100 less hp with only 1 point less compression?

That point should only be 25-50 hp I would think.

Mainly because our dyno numbers were with no drag on the motor and dry exhaust. I think trimmed out in the boat or motor will be closer to 675

 

[Cole Trickle]

Compression 9.5:1.

Cam: 256/264 @ .50 duration, 632 lift, 114 LS

seems ok to me...

Like I mentioned I think I am a little over cammed and I have a 262/? @.50 700 lift 114
LSA in my 548.

I bet there is a bunch left in tuning. Honestly I would probably talk to Alexi and see what he thinks on the overall specs.

You would need to get him some logs so he can take a look at AFR and timing. Both could be dramatically effecting top end performance. I can tell you I probably have 50hp left on the table in the higher rpm band and it's pig rich when the secondaries are working...bad transom soot only at WOT. I want to throw it on boostpowers out drive dyno. He is very reasonable.

 

[Cole Trickle]

Mainly because our dyno numbers were with no drag on the motor and dry exhaust. I think trimmed out in the boat or motor will be closer to 675

copy you were comparing dyno numbers to in the boat loaded numbers.

I bet daves engine is in the 675++ range. I know it has good parts and great heads with a kick ass EFI set up.

You probably loose more than that through the drive when everything is installed. (I would figure loss at 15-20% but I honestly have no idea on a boat compared to a car)

 

[Husqy510]

copy you were comparing dyno numbers to in the boat loaded numbers.

I bet daves engine is in the 675++ range. I know it has good parts and great heads with a kick ass EFI set up.

You probably loose more than that through the drive when everything is installed. (I would figure loss at 15-20% but I honestly have no idea on a boat compared to a car)

I'm sure we loose far more hp at the prop shaft, I'm just taking a guess at crank hp with all the accessories, wet exhaust and a flame arrestor. I'm surprised his motor wasn't built with a little more compression, maybe they wanted to keep it safe for 87 at the dock.

 

[Husqy510]

Having Alexi tune it on his prop dyno would probably be a great idea.

 

[DaveC]

Just to be clear I am not sure of a few things about my setup. I am trying to extrapolate a few things from what we know by comparing mine to other 26 Daytonas mostly with HP 525s.

My motor is supposed to have 700-725 HP. I don’t know much it has exactly because we did not dyno it.

I don’t think it has 700-725 HP. But I don’t know how much I got exactly so I am guessing.

My un-educated guess comes from my RPM being 200 RPM more than a like Daytona with a HP 525. Beyond that who knows.

I think there might be some gains by tuning but that is based upon a hunch but not any data.

I wish we would have put it on a dyno to know for sure

My seat of the pants dyno tells me somethings up. I don’t get any acceleration beyond about 2/3’rd throttle. That sees odd.

 

[Cole Trickle]

Just to be clear I am not sure of a few things about my setup. I am trying to extrapolate a few things from what we know by comparing mine to other 26 Daytonas mostly with HP 525s.

My motor is supposed to have 700-725 HP. I don’t know much it has exactly because we did not dyno it.

I don’t think it has 700-725 HP. But I don’t know how much I got exactly to say for sure so I am guessing.

My un-educated guess comes from my RPM being 200 RPM more than a like Daytona with a HP 525. Beyond that who knows.

I think there might be some gains by tuning but that is based upon a hunch but not any data.

I wish we would have put it on a dyno to know for sure

My seat of the pants dyno tells me somethings up. I don’t get any acceleration beyond about 2/3’rd throttle. That sees odd.

I have been in a 26 Daytona with a 525 and the boat didn't hit 80 with 4 people and fuel and sucked getting on plane.

I think a 27 speedster with the same 525 would be slower....lets say 75-80 mph propped to the moon with a light load.

If you are at 85 -90 mph I think you are close to 650-700 hp personally.

I think you have 2 issues. 1 I think the boat needs a good tune and a goo prop to get the slip down. 2 Honestly I think you were expecting more mph and more oomph out of what you have. A 540 needs a decent amount of cam and rpm to make 700+ hp and I think it's going to be very hard to get that program past 5500 rpms.

So while I think you probably do have close to 700hp out of the boat on a dyno you are probably closer to 600-625 installed and under load at the rpm level you are hitting.

I think you were trying to achieve Merc 600 performance levels in a less expensive NA build. Taking the fact that you got hosed on the whole program out of it I just don't think that engine will do 600 SC things when you factor in that merc always makes 600hp regardless of elevation and heat and has the TQ to move a big heavy boat.

Get it tuned and enjoy it at 85-90 or now that it is a teague 540 with a clean bill of health and relatively low Compressing go the whipple route. It's a beautiful boat it's just missing that last 5-10 mph you are after.

Boating sucks....lol My buddy has a beautiful brand new 200K Fundeck with a 565 that ran 78 mph with zero gas and 3 of us on board and a long runway. I drove that same boat with 10 people on board and it was terrible and a 64 mph barge...haha

 

[Thunderhead1]

Just to be clear I am not sure of a few things about my setup. I am trying to extrapolate a few things from what we know by comparing mine to other 26 Daytonas mostly with HP 525s.

My motor is supposed to have 700-725 HP. I don’t know much it has exactly because we did not dyno it.

I don’t think it has 700-725 HP. But I don’t know how much I got exactly so I am guessing.

My un-educated guess comes from my RPM being 200 RPM more than a like Daytona with a HP 525. Beyond that who knows.

I think there might be some gains by tuning but that is based upon a hunch but not any data.

I wish we would have put it on a dyno to know for sure

My seat of the pants dyno tells me somethings up. I don’t get any acceleration beyond about 2/3’rd throttle. That sees odd.

Its like ground hog day everytime I visit this post... Really sucks , I know your frustration.

This and a couple other reasons are EXACTLY why I went with Mercury Motors this time around.

 

[lbhsbz]

Here were the results of the leak down test done by Teague last summer. I just noticed it. All cylinders leaking on a brand new engine.

At this point the engine had only 7 hours and should be broken in by now.

Under 20% is fairly normal on a healthy engine...you can't seal up the rings when the engine isn't running. Either a valve was open on #1 and #2 or something was hurt

 

[DaveC]

I think we are close in thinking here. I think there is a few more MPH in it under the right conditions. I am looking at optimal conditions not summer time with 6-7 people on board in the heat with enough beer for RD on board. LOL

I am looking at the RPM also vs. the 525 and we are close. Not just the MPH.

We have tried so many props I lost count. I agree with your thinking on the maximum RPM at 5500. I am going to pick up a labbed 28 to spin it a bit higher.

The open bow 26/27 go slower. So hopefully we can get my slip down a bit.

That being said I agree on the tune. There is something missing in the upper band as the stick feels weird. I may be wrong but its worth looking into.

we are actually going to look at the tune myself here soon if I ever get the boat back. It is a holley EFI and we have the software.

I have been in a 26 Daytona with a 525 and the boat didn't hit 80 with 4 people and fuel and sucked getting on plane.

I think a 27 speedster with the same 525 would be slower....lets say 75-80 mph propped to the moon with a light load.

If you are at 85 -90 mph I think you are close to 650-700 hp personally.

I think you have 2 issues. 1 I think the boat needs a good tune and a goo prop to get the slip down. 2 Honestly I think you were expecting more mph and more oomph out of what you have. A 540 needs a decent amount of cam and rpm to make 700+ hp and I think it's going to be very hard to get that program past 5500 rpms.

So while I think you probably do have close to 700hp out of the boat on a dyno you are probably closer to 600-625 installed and under load at the rpm level you are hitting.

I think you were trying to achieve Merc 600 performance levels in a less expensive NA build. Taking the fact that you got hosed on the whole program out of it I just don't think that engine will do 600 SC things when you factor in that merc always makes 600hp regardless of elevation and heat and has the TQ to move a big heavy boat.

Get it tuned and enjoy it at 85-90 or now that it is a teague 540 with a clean bill of health and relatively low Compressing go the whipple route. It's a beautiful boat it's just missing that last 5-10 mph you are after.

Boating sucks....lol My buddy has a beautiful brand new 200K Fundeck with a 565 that ran 78 mph with zero gas and 3 of us on board and a long runway. I drove that same boat with 10 people on board and it was terrible and a 64 mph barge...haha

 

[n2otoofast4u]

Dave I'm near certain I have a labbed 28, and a worked over 28 to a 27 that I can ship down. I might even have a truck headed that way that could probably drop them off along the way.

 

[Motoxxxloak]

Dave I'm near certain I have a labbed 28, and a worked over 28 to a 27 that I can ship down. I might even have a truck headed that way that could probably drop them off along the way.

In the event he isn’t interested, are you selling? I am looking to try both of those and have been searching to find some extras someone has to try. I know one a day said he has some I can borrow too.


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[DaveC]

#1 and #2 were leaking through the exhaust valves and were dead

The others were leaking through exhaust also but to a smaller extent

A leak down of under 10% is healthy. 10-20% is normal but is like a clapped out Chevy with 150,000 miles. Well worn but not worth the cost of rebuild to get a few more HP. Not really indicative of a new performance engine

If I ever get it back I will run a leak down for a comparison so we can see

Under 20% is fairly normal on a healthy engine...you can't seal up the rings when the engine isn't running. Either a valve was open on #1 and #2 or something was hurt

 

[Hammer]

I think we are close in thinking here. I think there is a few more MPH in it under the right conditions. I am looking at optimal conditions not summer time with 6-7 people on board in the heat with enough beer for RD on board. LOL

I am looking at the RPM also vs. the 525 and we are close. Not just the MPH.

We have tried so many props I lost count. I agree with your thinking on the maximum RPM at 5500. I am going to pick up a labbed 28 to spin it a bit higher.

The open bow 26/27 go slower. So hopefully we can get my slip down a bit.

That being said I agree on the tune. There is something missing in the upper band as the stick feels weird. I may be wrong but its worth looking into.

we are actually going to look at the tune myself here soon if I ever get the boat back. It is a holley EFI and we have the software.

I have labbed 27 if you want to give that a shot? I’ll be In town for DS.

For the record. I’m pretty( well guarantee)sure we virtually have the same motor.

760HP/770TRQ on the dyno. Torque started falling off around 5500. Set up for a Bravo 1 boat.

I’m very pleased with the engine combination.

Shoot me PM if you want more info.






I really hope you get this straightened out



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[DaveC]

Here is some prop testing feedback on this.

We tested a lot of props. 28 & 30 pitch Merc non-labbed 4 blades. 27, 28 pitch Max 5 blades. 28 pitch Maximus 5 blade. With all these we saw between 84 and 85 mph as the top speed.

With the 28 non-lab 4 blade we got the best mph at 5400 RPM and 85 mph

So it was suggested to me that I get a labbed 28 4 blade. A recent test yielded 5650 RPM at 88 mph with the lab 28. More RPM yielded more MPH.

I need to try my 30 again one more time.

But all this still has me wondering about the slip?

 

[HydroSkreamin]

Dude, 11-12% slip with a non-Cleaver single prop is pretty good, I don't know what number you're shooting for, but you're going to have a hard time getting lower than that without ditching some weight, raising the drive, or putting a 5-blade Cleaver on it. JMO.

I'm assuming a 1.50:1 ratio.

 

[DaveC]

Yes. 1.5 ratio.

We were getting 82-84 and removed some weight to get 85. Lol

My old 25 Daytona was in the single digits. 7-8%. Not sure what other 26/27 daytona bottoms get?

Prop shaft is 1/2” below bottom of boat. Not sure if that’s high or not.

 

[DaveC]

Bad news for my pocket book. This has really come up short in terms of speed from my original expectations.

After driving this for 12 days the motor seems to run fine, just short of expectations. But as was said before this big heavy boat is under powered. It really does need more power and I think the supercharger would be the key even though I don't want to do it. In the summer heat this engine just struggles. I was never really looking to haul ass but it does need more speed otherwise I don't see the point of owning this thing.

Originally I was shooting for 95 mph without the S/C and that would allow me to cruise mid 80's. In the summer heat I can barely reach mid 80's. I really thought I would see more speed without the S/C but it simply does not work. It also doesn't help that the power originally promised comes up shorty by about 100 HP. We can try to tune some more but even if we get some incremental gains that will still come up short of my original expectations.

Therefore I think the only course of action left to reach my original expectation is to re-power. I think I will either sell this motor or re-build it.

I am thinking either a Merc 600 SCI swap (with a Whipple tune). Or send this motor out and have Teague put a Whipple on it. I am leaning towards the Teague route since we know that works good.

Either way I am buying a new drive too. FML!! One of my original concerns was the (lack of) reliability of the XR with a supercharger but the new SCX seems to help alleviate that concern.

I will chalk this up to an epic fail on my part.

All options are on the table including building a new boat also.

 

[DaveC]

Oh and by the way for those that said that he would step up and take care of this problem he did not.

I was left holding the bag for the repairs to the engine.

And the worst part was I was told this was entirely my fault. And that Teague lied to me. (WTF!?!?) That one boggles my mind.

I guess operating a brand new engine (that leaks water) for less than 30 days and less than 7 hours makes this all my fault.

 

[hallett21]

Man that sucks. If Teague does the motor would they tear it all the way down and start completely over so that it’s a true “Teague” motor?


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[n2otoofast4u]

Sell, build bote with OB's, go fast, be happy, probably less $ out of pocket than the complete do-over!

 

[DaveC]

A new twin OB boat might be an option. Can't argue how bad ass they are in the Speedster.

I will probably bring the boat to LA at the end of the year with a for sale sign on everything and see what sells first.

If the boat actually sells for decent money then I might build a new one. Either with a Teague motor or twin OB's.

Keep in mind a new boat will cost $20,000 in sales tax.

 

[DaveC]

Yup. Thats the problem.

Most of the stuff is good but it would need new pistons/rings anyway so I know it will get an entire top shelf rotating assembly ($$$) by the time it is all said and done.

I just have to eat the costs

Man that sucks. If Teague does the motor would they tear it all the way down and start completely over so that it’s a true “Teague” motor?


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[RCDave]

Sorry to hear B&D didn't step up. Sad result indeed.

Glad to hear you are at least boating this summer. Have great times with the family....

 

[lake p.a.l.]

Just my opinion: either sell that motor & drive & buy the correct motor/drive OR sell entire boat & buy another boat. The OB boats, even with 400s, don't accelerate very well unless very light. ALL outboard boats struggle when you add more weight. You are welcome to ride in my boat anytime.
There are plenty of very good used boats for sale that are proven & you can test drive to see if they do what you want. If I were you I'd be going the used route WITH WARRANTY. Good luck

 

[Thunderhead1]

A new twin OB boat might be an option. Can't argue how bad ass they are in the Speedster.

I will probably bring the boat to LA at the end of the year with a for sale sign on everything and see what sells first.

If the boat actually sells for decent money then I might build a new one. Either with a Teague motor or twin OB's.

Keep in mind a new boat will cost $20,000 in sales tax.

In the whole grand scheme of things... 20k is cheap isn't it?? Im not being bougie or arrogant , but when your spending 200k plus and have commitments and expectations for vacations and such , 20k isn't a deal breaker to have the boat you want. 20K in tax is irritaqting to say the least though.

sell it and start over now so you have a fresh start next season.

 

[lake p.a.l.]

Beyond SUCKS that B&D didn't stand behind their work. Where are all the inmates now that said what a standup guy he is???

 

[CLA]

Damn, all your problems suck! Sorry you went through this.

I vote blower install at Teague and SCX upper with imco regular lower. Haul ass......

 

[DaveC]

Very true. Given how much was spent already another $20k doesn't mean anything. At this point it doesn't matter. We are just going to have it built the way it should be build or build another.

My point was I can either throw $20k at a new one or $20k at building this one. I think either option is a viable one.

The tax thing bugs me but either option is putting money into a small business man's pocket regardless so I am OK with either.

I like the OB boats but I still like a BBC better. Having a whipple thrown on mine will get it the way that I want it. I haven't talked to Teague yet so we shall see.

Before I do anything I might arm wrestle EB to give me a ride in the twin 400 27 Speedster so I can see for myself. Seems like a great combination that I should look at closely even if we decide in the end not to go that route.

Just my opinion: either sell that motor & drive & buy the correct motor/drive OR sell entire boat & buy another boat. The OB boats, even with 400s, don't accelerate very well unless very light. ALL outboard boats struggle when you add more weight. You are welcome to ride in my boat anytime.
There are plenty of very good used boats for sale that are proven & you can test drive to see if they do what you want. If I were you I'd be going the used route WITH WARRANTY. Good luck

I wonder how the new 400's perform compared to the old 300's? I need to get onto a 400's 27 speedster and see what the deal is really. All the discussions I had with EB and videos I have seen paint a pretty good picture. Those OB's are a viable option and should be taken seriously now. Plus the 5 year warranty. Hard to beat really. I am a car-boat-motor guy saying this......

How about the new 30 speedster with 450's? LOL

You really want to hear some shit, Bob offered to sell me a orange 28 Speedster with 400's for $225,000 3 years ago. FML!!

 

[RCDave]

I went for a ride in Bullhead Bully's Nordic 28SS with twin 400's. It had NO problem rolling over and had strong acceleration across the band. I was really impressed with twin 400's in a 28 tunnel hull.

 

[ToMorrow44]

Yup. Thats the problem.

Most of the stuff is good but it would need new pistons/rings anyway so I know it will get an entire top shelf rotating assembly ($$$) by the time it is all said and done.

I just have to eat the costs

I would sell the motor you have now, there’s probably some good value in it now that it’s running right. And buy a Teague 825. It’s actually a very mild mannered motor, easy to maintain, very turn key. We know that motor in that boat will run 120. Eliminator and Teague already have the formula on it. I think you’ll find if you try to Whipple your motor you’re gonna end up changing too much stuff and throw away all your old stuff

 

[DaveC]

This is the preferred route actually.

I need to have a discussion with them about rebuilding versus buying new but that is probably the jist of it. Whatever they recommend is what we will do.

It might just come down to selling the old one and starting over.

I would sell the motor you have now, there’s probably some good value in it now that it’s running right. And buy a Teague 825. It’s actually a very mild mannered motor, easy to maintain, very turn key. We know that motor in that boat will run 120. Eliminator and Teague already have the formula on it. I think you’ll find if you try to Whipple your motor you’re gonna end up changing too much stuff and throw away all your old stuff

 

[ToMorrow44]

This is the preferred route actually.

I need to have a discussion with them about rebuilding versus buying new but that is probably the jist of it. Whatever they recommend is what we will do.

It might just come down to selling the old one and starting over.

I just went and read thru all 8 pages of this thread. What a nightmare, I feel for ya. Good news is your boat is beautiful, love the gel and interior, and not just because I’m a big Dodgers fan!

I know you said you didn’t really want a 115mph boat, but the real benefit is that it’ll cruise at 80mph all day long and not work hard. Good luck with whatever you decide and keep this thread updated for all of us who are emotionally vested at this point lol!

 

[lake p.a.l.]

I would sell the motor you have now, there’s probably some good value in it now that it’s running right. And buy a Teague 825. It’s actually a very mild mannered motor, easy to maintain, very turn key. We know that motor in that boat will run 120. Eliminator and Teague already have the formula on it. I think you’ll find if you try to Whipple your motor you’re gonna end up changing too much stuff and throw away all your old stuff

This is spot on advice. I'm not sure about 120 but at least 115.

 

[ToMorrow44]

This is spot on advice. I'm not sure about 120 but at least 115.

This one they finished up early this year hit 120. Not sure if that was light load and propped to the moon or not. The potential is there, but agreed, 115 is probably a realistic everyday speed.

https://www.riverdavesplace.com/forums/threads/2018-tcm-825-27’-speedster.183214/

 

[DaveC]

I know that dude

This one they finished up early this year hit 120. Not sure if that was light load and propped to the moon or not. The potential is there, but agreed, 115 is probably a realistic everyday speed.

https://www.riverdavesplace.com/forums/threads/2018-tcm-825-27’-speedster.183214/

 

[DaveC]

So I decided that I am going to sell the entire boat. This has just not worked out how I would have liked.

I need to make some major changes. So selling this and starting over seems to make the most sense.

Plus we have all the issues sorted out and everything runs good now. Good time for a change

If I tried to repower the net cost is roughly the same as starting over.

Plus things have improved for me over the past two and a half years so that helps too

EB has done everything they could have reasonably done to help with this situation. I won’t hesitate to buy from them again.

I will also try to sell just the motor and see what goes first. Then do a repower with Teague if the motor goes first

I won’t lie, most if this is just me wanting to close the book on this story and move on to something else and put it all behind me. If it costs me tens of thousands of dollars to do so then I am Ok with that

 

[CLA]

I have some 710 vipers for sale. That boat would run almost a 100 mph with a 710.

Sorry for your troubles.

 

[DaveC]

On the repower it will get a supercharger

 

[renodaytona]

What’s the price if you were to put it up today? Asking for a friend

 

[Hondo-407]

What’s the price if you were to put it up today? Asking for a friend

Question X2?

 

[DaveC]

Asking $175,000.

Its for sale now if anyone is interested.

 

[Racey]

Asking $175,000.

Its for sale now if anyone is interested.

Wow, what a roller coaster of a thread. I can't believe i missed this over the last couple years.

I hope everything works out for you, the boat itself is beautiful. You have a lot of patience, and restraint.

 

[DaveC]

You missed all the screaming and yelling that went on behind the scenes. Lol

I should walk away completely and not come back. But I am a glutton for punishment so, round two here we come. Lol

They promise it will be different this time.

Wow, what a roller coaster of a thread. I can't believe i missed this over the last couple years.

I hope everything works out for you, the boat itself is beautiful. You have a lot of patience, and restraint.