WELCOME TO RIVER DAVES PLACE

MERC 500HP FACTS, FICTION, ????'S AND ANSWERS...

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
28,968
Reaction score
17,612
First off, there will be a multitude of disagreance in this thread, and post what you know, or think, all replies welcome... this is not in anyway a thread to bang on others boats and motors... but hey.,, facts are facts,.. first one being the 500hp motor is a good platform to build from... but, if you know the problems you will be at least one step ahead.....
 

wsuwrhr

The Masheenest
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
35,634
Reaction score
23,838
God love you 2FF. :)

First off, there will be a multitude of disagreance in this thread, and post what you know, or think, all replies welcome... this is not in anyway a thread to bang on others boats and motors... but hey.,, facts are facts,.. first one being the 500hp motor is a good platform to build from... but, if you know the problems you will be at least one step ahead.....
 

Runs2rch

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2013
Messages
9,938
Reaction score
10,415
Valve springs problem number one. Gil exhaust possible problem number 2.
 

Runs2rch

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2013
Messages
9,938
Reaction score
10,415
Overall though The HP500's are great engines. Cam, new valvetrain parts 540-560hp reliably.
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
28,968
Reaction score
17,612
So, whats wrong with this Motor..lets start with the fuel system...pretty basic right... you have a carb, fuel pump and manifold...kinda "CAVEMAN" technology...right??? as me being an old drag racer... I can make it work...Fuel bing the explosive part, haveit right and containing it to the cylinders is the tricky part...although quality of the fuel is major in any combustion motor, it is a real killer in the 500 hp,...running bad feul can whipe this motor out quick...so... if you got bad fuel,... get it out, and don't run it... Merc had a problem with fuel when they built these motors...and you can add the mpi 502 to the list also...with the 502 mpi, when it worked it did... but when it didn't... bye bye motor, but lets stay on the carbed 500hp...merc could not get the fuel ratio right though the whole rpm range right, motor runs lean on #7 and #2..and see'n there is no way to monitor the fuel after it leave the dyno.....merc staggered the jets on the carb... so what you have is a constant change in fuel ratio... meaning , at one rpm the cylinder is fat,... and another the same cylinder is lean,... again... caveman technologly ...but even with todays efi... there is no monitoring to each cylinder
 

Runs2rch

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2013
Messages
9,938
Reaction score
10,415
Forgot to mention that. Electric fuel pump is a must. Also the super sucker carb spacers help with the mix like you are saying.

The MPI motors like you say are poop imo. If I owned one first mods would be to carb it.
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
28,968
Reaction score
17,612
8 aluminum pistons

8 wrist pins

8 connecting rods

16 connecting rod bolts and nuts

1 crankshaft

2 cylinder heads

16 valves

32 valve keepers

1 intake manifold

1 camshaft

All facts.
all of which when they fail....bye bye motor, so the right thing to do , so you window the block and loose the whole motor is pretty much maintenance... right....fixing the known problems early... saves the motor,..right???
 

wsuwrhr

The Masheenest
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
35,634
Reaction score
23,838
Follow the rules Mister. :)


First off, there will be a multitude of disagreance in this thread, and post what you know, or think, all replies welcome... this is not in anyway a thread to bang on others boats and motors... but hey.,, facts are facts,.. first one being the 500hp motor is a good platform to build from... but, if you know the problems you will be at least one step ahead.....

So, whats wrong with this Motor..lets start with the fuel system...pretty basic right... you have a carb, fuel pump and manifold...kinda "CAVEMAN" technology...right??? as me being an old drag racer... I can make it work...Fuel bing the explosive part, haveit right and containing it to the cylinders is the tricky part...although quality of the fuel is major in any combustion motor, it is a real killer in the 500 hp,...running bad feul can whipe this motor out quick...so... if you got bad fuel,... get it out, and don't run it... Merc had a problem with fuel when they built these motors...and you can add the mpi 502 to the list also...with the 502 mpi, when it worked it did... but when it didn't... bye bye motor, but lets stay on the carbed 500hp...merc could not get the fuel ratio right though the whole rpm range right, motor runs lean on #7 and #2..and see'n there is no way to monitor the fuel after it leave the dyno.....merc staggered the jets on the carb... so what you have is a constant change in fuel ratio... meaning , at one rpm the cylinder is fat,... and another the same cylinder is lean,... again... caveman technologly ...but even with todays efi... there is no monitoring to each cylinder
 

wsuwrhr

The Masheenest
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
35,634
Reaction score
23,838
Usually. :)

all of which when they fail....bye bye motor, so the right thing to do , so you window the block and loose the whole motor is pretty much maintenance... right....fixing the known problems early... saves the motor,..right???
 

wsuwrhr

The Masheenest
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
35,634
Reaction score
23,838
As does every Chevy in the world. Running or not. :)

So, whats wrong with this Motor..lets start with the fuel system...pretty basic right... you have a carb, fuel pump and manifold...kinda "CAVEMAN" technology...right??? as me being an old drag racer... I can make it work...Fuel bing the explosive part, haveit right and containing it to the cylinders is the tricky part...although quality of the fuel is major in any combustion motor, it is a real killer in the 500 hp,...running bad feul can whipe this motor out quick...so... if you got bad fuel,... get it out, and don't run it... Merc had a problem with fuel when they built these motors...and you can add the mpi 502 to the list also...with the 502 mpi, when it worked it did... but when it didn't... bye bye motor, but lets stay on the carbed 500hp...merc could not get the fuel ratio right though the whole rpm range right, motor runs lean on #7 and #2..and see'n there is no way to monitor the fuel after it leave the dyno.....merc staggered the jets on the carb... so what you have is a constant change in fuel ratio... meaning , at one rpm the cylinder is fat,... and another the same cylinder is lean,... again... caveman technologly ...but even with todays efi... there is no monitoring to each cylinder
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
28,968
Reaction score
17,612
so what we have is what I call a maybe will, maybe won't motor..you don't have to fix them, but remember, merc says pull the heads at 300 hrs,...my 500hp has 310hr's... still has the factory seals on the motor...so leave it alone, and wait for it to break.... or fix it now and do alittle up grading???
 

wsuwrhr

The Masheenest
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
35,634
Reaction score
23,838
Yes.

so what we have is what I call a maybe will, maybe won't motor..you don't have to fix them, but remember, merc says pull the heads at 300 hrs,...my 500hp has 310hr's... still has the factory seals on the motor...so leave it alone, and wait for it to break.... or fix it now and do alittle up grading???
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
28,968
Reaction score
17,612
the next problem is the block...Siamese cylinders...and blind hole head bolts... not a real problem, but..if the head bolt bottoms out, then it doesn't have the right amount of torque,... soo, as for talking about #7 & 5 cylinders... when it goes lean..or detonates ... add the stretch of the bottomed out head bolts... bye bye head gasket... which is a cheep repair unless you have a throttle man out there try'n to do a high speed tune up to "clean out the cylinder" and just ends up strangling the motor to death... I've watched this happen over and over.... boat doesn't run right at the dock, so hey, lets take it out and run the shit out of it till eats it's self....lol
 

Racey

Maxwell Smart-Ass
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
22,363
Reaction score
50,902
but even with todays efi... there is no monitoring to each cylinder

Monitoring to each cylinder is less important and not the same as delivery to each cylinder. EFI with port injection and decent injectors will deliver equal fuel to each cylinder at a given load. A single carburetor can not.
 

farmo83

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2008
Messages
2,516
Reaction score
2,791
I'm def biased as I'm actually currently looking to upgrade my HP500 whenever I can find a solution to an external steering problem I'm having on my Schiada.

That having been said any motor with bad fuel won't hold up. I also think it depends on how far your wanting to go on if it's a good candidate. To my mind if your wanting to go 550,650,maybe 700 then yes I would think it's a good candidate. If your wanting to go beyond that then maybe it's not as good a candidate as you'll have to strip out most of what makes it a good baseline engine. Given I'm not starting with a bare block my alternatives would be a 496,454, 502 Mag, I'll go with the HP 500 every time out of that group. As far as it being caveman technology I view that as a good thing as there isn't as much that can go wrong and lots of people can work on them.
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
28,968
Reaction score
17,612
next problem with these motors, the crane 1/4 mile valve componits... there pretty close to done at 300 hrs... some don't make it that far, and some will go way past...kinda like sport sex with out a condom,
 

wsuwrhr

The Masheenest
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
35,634
Reaction score
23,838
Head studs, always, especially in a boat. problem solved. :)

Brian

the next problem is the block...Siamese cylinders...and blind hole head bolts... not a real problem, but..if the head bolt bottoms out, then it doesn't have the right amount of torque,... soo, as for talking about #7 & 5 cylinders... when it goes lean..or detonates ... add the stretch of the bottomed out head bolts... bye bye head gasket... which is a cheep repair unless you have a throttle man out there try'n to do a high speed tune up to "clean out the cylinder" and just ends up strangling the motor to death... I've watched this happen over and over.... boat doesn't run right at the dock, so hey, lets take it out and run the shit out of it till eats it's self....lol
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
28,968
Reaction score
17,612
Monitoring to each cylinder is less important and not the same as delivery to each cylinder. EFI with port injection and decent injectors will deliver equal fuel to each cylinder at a given load. A single carburetor can not.
add to the fact that the manifold on the 500 hp leans out the corners ...#2 & #7... but in response to your post... that's the problem with home grown fuel injection..no wat to get a platform to start with,... merc fuel injection is set up on a dyno that monitors each cylinder...they
re not gonna burn the same ratio through out the rpms... but they can get a happy medium that lets the motor live longer..
the success to a good efi system is gonna fall back on who installed it and tuned it... not to say that some people won't get lucky, as more will not... the statement I hear the most, I threw my carb in the trash and bolted on this fuel injection... getting more hp and gonna be easier to cold start, and now I'll be able to go from sea level to 6000' and not have black stuff on my transom... wouldn't that be nice...
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
28,968
Reaction score
17,612
I'm def biased as I'm actually currently looking to upgrade my HP500 whenever I can find a solution to an external steering problem I'm having on my Schiada.

That having been said any motor with bad fuel won't hold up. I also think it depends on how far your wanting to go on if it's a good candidate. To my mind if your wanting to go 550,650,maybe 700 then yes I would think it's a good candidate. If your wanting to go beyond that then maybe it's not as good a candidate as you'll have to strip out most of what makes it a good baseline engine. Given I'm not starting with a bare block my alternatives would be a 496,454, 502 Mag, I'll go with the HP 500 every time out of that group. As far as it being caveman technology I view that as a good thing as there isn't as much that can go wrong and lots of people can work on them.


Damn, love you post, couldn't have said it better...I've been boating since moby dick was a minnow , so cave man works for me...as I have said before... the speed of our 210 is right where I wanna be, and if more speed was the factor,... I would have bought a different boat..the only thing that might not be a good idea, some times we might have to 4-6 people in the boat....and maybe we should have just got a deck boat for mead..
and whats the problem with the steering?
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
28,968
Reaction score
17,612
so anyways, try'n to figure out what to do with this 500hp,here's a little of the drama from my trip to lake mead yesterday,..

unloaded the boat,... started it up, shut it off and loaded it back up...whent home going, holy shit... WTF just happened...horrible experience...( experince is what you get when you don't get what you want) I didn't end up in jail... but very very close..
 

Racey

Maxwell Smart-Ass
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
22,363
Reaction score
50,902
add to the fact that the manifold on the 500 hp leans out the corners ...#2 & #7... but in response to your post... that's the problem with home grown fuel injection..no wat to get a platform to start with,... merc fuel injection is set up on a dyno that monitors each cylinder...they
re not gonna burn the same ratio through out the rpms... but they can get a happy medium that lets the motor live longer..
the success to a good efi system is gonna fall back on who installed it and tuned it... not to say that some people won't get lucky, as more will not... the statement I hear the most, I threw my carb in the trash and bolted on this fuel injection... getting more hp and gonna be easier to cold start, and now I'll be able to go from sea level to 6000' and not have black stuff on my transom... wouldn't that be nice...

The lean problem on 7 and 2 (opposite corners, the longest ends from the carb) come from lack of fuel, not excess air. This is solved by port injection, even if it is "home grown", even if the manifold is the same. Fuel is heavy compared to air, it travels from the carb and starts to wet the surfaces, this fuel film builds and makes is way to the path of least resistance (all the cylinders that it has the easiest path to flow to).

There may be some air flow difference on those longer runs to 2 and 7, but it's very minuscule in comparison to the fuel film issue caused by dumping all of the fuel into the center with a carb.

You don't need to worry about reading 8 individual o2 sensors on a motor as mild as a 500hp, even with home grown efi. bank to bank is more than enough (and even that is just for a sanity check). If you have to trim fuel cylinder to cylinder on a motor like that you have bigger issues at hand, mechanical ones.

Case in point, MEFI 4 computers that ran on everything from 502 mpi's, 525hp, all the way through to their high hp super charged motors only had 2 channels of fuel, 4 injectors all fired the same duration, at the same time, then the other 4 fire. No fuel timing, no difference in pulse duration to account for cylinder to cylinder trims.

Most home grown efi problems start with the fact that people think they can just order a system that's advertised in one of the back pages of a comic book, they hear all these cool terms like "Auto tuning" "self learning" etc. And see a cheap price.

You get what you pay for. :cool:
 

Racey

Maxwell Smart-Ass
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
22,363
Reaction score
50,902
If you want to know about fixing that 500 now before it breaks, and upgrading to EFI, go see Pat and Mike at All Seasons, they have done a few, they have one their 27 Hallett that they upgraded and converted as well.
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
28,968
Reaction score
17,612
If you want to know about fixing that 500 now before it breaks, and upgrading to EFI, go see Pat and Mike at All Seasons, they have done a few, they have one their 27 Hallett that they upgraded and converted as well.
does their hallett have a roll bar???
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
28,968
Reaction score
17,612
The lean problem on 7 and 2 (opposite corners, the longest ends from the carb) come from lack of fuel, not excess air. This is solved by port injection, even if it is "home grown", even if the manifold is the same. Fuel is heavy compared to air, it travels from the carb and starts to wet the surfaces, this fuel film builds and makes is way to the path of least resistance (all the cylinders that it has the easiest path to flow to).

There may be some air flow difference on those longer runs to 2 and 7, but it's very minuscule in comparison to the fuel film issue caused by dumping all of the fuel into the center with a carb.

You don't need to worry about reading 8 individual o2 sensors on a motor as mild as a 500hp, even with home grown efi. bank to bank is more than enough (and even that is just for a sanity check). If you have to trim fuel cylinder to cylinder on a motor like that you have bigger issues at hand, mechanical ones.

Case in point, MEFI 4 computers that ran on everything from 502 mpi's, 525hp, all the way through to their high hp super charged motors only had 2 channels of fuel, 4 injectors all fired the same duration, at the same time, then the other 4 fire. No fuel timing, no difference in pulse duration to account for cylinder to cylinder trims.

Most home grown efi problems start with the fact that people think they can just order a system that's advertised in one of the back pages of a comic book, they hear all these cool terms like "Auto tuning" "self learning" etc. And see a cheap price.

You get what you pay for. :cool:
so what would it cost to have this done???
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
28,968
Reaction score
17,612
not unless you consider a bimini a roll bar :p

Lol, no, it's mostly yellow, mid cabin, might have some purple in it?
there was one yesterday at boulder harbor, it was a 270 with a big blue roll bar... I figured he was from boulder city
 

Racey

Maxwell Smart-Ass
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
22,363
Reaction score
50,902
there was one yesterday at boulder harbor, it was a 270 with a big blue roll bar... I figured he was from boulder city

They may service that boat. I think i know the one you are talking about.
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
28,968
Reaction score
17,612
what I would like to do is pull the heads...and swap for aluminum, at that point probley need a new carb....so take the new carb money and go efi???
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
28,968
Reaction score
17,612
They may service that boat. I think i know the one you are talking about.
we had an exchange of not so good words...it got pretty harry at the dock, one guy laid out ,... and me, who didn't nothing, on the way to jail... amber lamps..5 rangers and such...
 
Last edited:

Racey

Maxwell Smart-Ass
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
22,363
Reaction score
50,902
what I would like to do is pull the heads...and swap for aluminum, at that point probley need a new carb....so take the new carb money and go efi???

I would, especially if you plan on keeping the boat, EFI is better in so many ways.


we had an exchange of not so good words...

You? I'm shocked. :D:D:D:D

(I don't know the guy, but i do know the boat. I stay locked away in my little science lab over here):p

Doing EFI conversion stuff today, building all of the triggering system to integrate into the belt kit now.

IMG_20180505_115448.jpg
 
Last edited:

brad22

Barco Mecanico
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
534
Reaction score
101
Valve springs problem number one. Gil exhaust possible problem number 2.
I know you said possibly and I'm not knocking you but why you say the Gil exhaust? I thought they were and still are one of the best performing cast aluminum manifolds out there.

Another question on the Gils, do most people remove the turbulators on these applications?

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
 

pronstar

President, Dallas Chapter
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
34,691
Reaction score
41,537
So in summary:
It’s a great motor to start a build.
Once you upgrade all of the weak links.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

DrunkenSailor

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2017
Messages
7,764
Reaction score
11,215
we had an exchange of not so good words...it got pretty harry at the dock, one guy laid out ,... and me, who didn't nothing, on the way to jail... amber lamps..5 rangers and such...

Ramp drama sucks. Glad you didn't get the bracelets.
 

Tank

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
21,145
Reaction score
50,768
I know you said possibly and I'm not knocking you but why you say the Gil exhaust? I thought they were and still are one of the best performing cast aluminum manifolds out there.

Another question on the Gils, do most people remove the turbulators on these applications?

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

I was thinking the same thing. Gil has a GREAT name in the industry. I ran them on 650HP blower motors in the Cig for years with out ONE problem. Manifolds over headers everytime!


Great thread by the way! BOATING RELATED, YAAY!
Question - What the fuck is good about the HP500 with all the shit you listed wrong!? LOL

Also, did the Merc 500EFI address these issues you're bringing up?
 

rush1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2013
Messages
2,892
Reaction score
2,749
still working on getting the 210 figured out...lol.. but here's one thing that I've noticed...why is it that there is always some fat ass holding a little baby that is a twig...why don't they give some of the over eating to the kid???
I actually laughed out loud
 

DaveH

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
2,809
Reaction score
4,065
a well known problem with that engine is the rings going away.

leak yours down.

seen them go away after just 250hours.

I don't know if its because of the ring package merc uses, or possibly the hone finish on the cylinder wall, or the excessive fuel merc tunes throw at the engine that shortens ring life.

and yeah...there is a world of difference between the modern port injected 8 channel systems vs the one size fits all approach merc runs.
 

jeepdog

Lucky jeepdog
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Messages
1,575
Reaction score
3,247
Great thread Steve, following closely. My ole blue needs love...
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
28,968
Reaction score
17,612
a well known problem with that engine is the rings going away.

leak yours down.

seen them go away after just 250hours.

I don't know if its because of the ring package merc uses, or possibly the hone finish on the cylinder wall, or the excessive fuel merc tunes throw at the engine that shortens ring life.

and yeah...there is a world of difference between the modern port injected 8 channel systems vs the one size fits all approach merc runs.
I ve always thought, or what I've found with the 502's I tore down, it was the out of round cylinders ... that's why I would rather have a seasoned 502 with a quality re-bore , than a stock one..
 

Carlson-jet

Not Giving A Fuck Is An Art
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
7,785
Reaction score
7,950
Merc 500 HP Bulldog beats the crap out of the merc 454 of that era. Wish I had one. Nice platform to start with.
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
28,968
Reaction score
17,612
OK, so before the, "lets hop this ol girl up"let look and see why she's so lazy and hard to start...performance tune,(you can say wither it's low or hi...) so what I do...first is a visual..check all the plug wires, look in side the distributor cap, check coil wire.. here's what I found... the coil wire wasn't snapped in..as in it's a wonder it didn't fall off going across the lake, the distributor cap looked ok as did the rotor...no cracks and such, Emory board the tip of the rotor and should be good to go...but, there's something else going on so on to the next step...
DSC04091.JPG
DSC04092.JPG
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
28,968
Reaction score
17,612
the next step is one I like to do myself, that way you know what you know....I've found that some motors don't like cross over plugs.... so I like to start with what plug is supposed to be in it...so when I have some one else do it it usally goes like this... how did the plugs look?....old so we through them away. what kind were they?...spark. what were they gapped at? we didn't check...but there are new ones in there now...what plugs did you put in??? ... spark.
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
28,968
Reaction score
17,612
so I pulled the plugs...here what they looked like,,and here's what kind of plug...ngk br6fs.... the major problem I found was the gap... the tightest was .022 anf the biggest gap was .025....whether or not these plugs are right for this motor??? hell I don't know... never tried them in a 500hp motor...but they do cross over from the ac mr43t...
but the real problem is the gap... not gonna get much spark out of 022 gap. and the characteristics of the way it was running show pretty much what I found in the plugs....
this bitch was cold blooded for sure...all fuel fouled...



DSC04090.JPG
 
Last edited:

Tank

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
21,145
Reaction score
50,768
Wish i had more mechanical talent than calling the mechanic when it won’t work. [emoji20][emoji20][emoji20]

Thank god I know a guy even if he’s kinda a dick.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
28,968
Reaction score
17,612
White haired guy mid-60ish, wife about 10-15 years younger, pre-teen kids. and 2 springer spaniels?
sounds about right, I helped him get his boat of the trailer, then was holding his boat so the people with him could get on...then he start chewing me out say'n what I did was un called for and that "HE" seen me knock the guy out....
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
28,968
Reaction score
17,612
the 500 hp motor calls for ac marine plugs..."AC mr43T and a gap of .035....



DSC04093.JPG
DSC04094.JPG
 
Top