Let's talk about gas and storing for the winter

[rivermobster]

Question!??....If your engine requires Premium fuel, can you run AV gas? :hmm

It's almost impossible to buy AV gas in CA anymore. AZ might be different, I would guess Wheeler would know.

Parker Oil sells non alcohol ingested fuel. That would be your best bet for any kinna long term storage.

 

[HST4ME]

What about the protecting the engine and drive from freezing?

I store my boat in outdoor covered storage. It is surrounded on all sides, except the bow, by motorhomes. There isn't any power there to plug into. Most of the time it is above freezing, but it can get into the high 20's occasionally for a few nights.

I was thinking of putting a heaving moving blanket over the engine and another one wrapped around the drive with bungee cords. What are your thoughts on this?

If it gets real cold, I can bring the boat home and run some sort of heat source in the engine bay.

rotflmao:

Reminds of a black gentleman years ago who let his motor freeze, " But Missah! I done had muh motah all wrapped up in blankets all winnah! Just so to keep it warm, I jus don' understand!" LOL

Last run of the year fill up with non ethanol and I like the marine stabil. then do whatever.

 

[92 cole]

I am surprised there are no pilots piping up on this.

 

[Ouderkirk]

Heading out to Havasu next weekend for the last trip of the year.

Last year I put Lucas Ethanol treatment in as I towed home and then ran it on the hose for a little bit when I got home. Ended up draining the tanks and replacing all the fuel lines, etc over the winter so didn't matter but want that investment to last awhile now.

What is everyone's thoughts on this? Should I just run ethanol free gas this weekend to empty and put away or......????

I remove all fuel from the tanks, lines, and carb float bowl for the winter.

I don't think that those fuel stabilizers work as well as they advertise especially with ethanol fuels.

Better to start the season with fresh fuel from tank to float.

 

[rivrrts429]

It's almost impossible to buy AV gas in CA anymore. AZ might be different, I would guess Wheeler would know.

Parker Oil sells non alcohol ingested fuel. That would be your best bet for any kinna long term storage.

It's actually pretty easy but it's all unleaded. A lot more places to buy than you'd think.

I run 100LL so I can damn near leave it for a year or two but the downside is the pain in the ass to get locally at the airports. Parker airport is a breeze. Locally they frown pulling my boat up to the pump.

 

[rivermobster]

It's actually pretty easy but it's all unleaded. A lot more places to buy than you'd think.

I run 100LL so I can damn near leave it for a year or two but the downside is the pain in the ass to get locally at the airports. Parker airport is a breeze. Locally they frown pulling my boat up to the pump.

Hmmmmm...

Last time I called Bracket, they told me to pound sand. Cable told me the same thing.

I just asked my brother in law, who is a pilot, and he told me to try El Monte. Go figure! LoL

He also said it is low lead, not unleaded. I really don't have a clue. *shrug*

I still think the best bet is Parker Oil. Any excuse to go to the river! [emoji106] [emoji6]

 

[rivrrts429]

Hmmmmm...

Last time I called Bracket, they told me to pound sand. Cable told me the same thing.

I just asked my brother in law, who is a pilot, and he told me to try El Monte. Go figure! LoL

He also said it is low lead, not unleaded. I really don't have a clue. *shrug*

I still think the best bet is Parker Oil. Any excuse to go to the river! [emoji106] [emoji6]

Low lead is ONLY at the airports and yeah it's a bitch locally. CRIT airport doesn't give a shit and will sell as much as you want right on the tarmac.

I meant to say that you can find fuel labeled "Unleaded AvGas" pretty much every city at the pump but only airports sell leaded.

Parker oil usually has Unleaded, not leaded.

Parker Oil does get leaded sometimes but I suspect it's the stuff that CRIT airport won't except for whatever reason, who knows. I'd rather buy it at the airport at that point knowing that shit has to keep humans aloft. If it's good for them it's good for me lol.

 

[rivermobster]

Low lead is ONLY at the airports and yeah it's a bitch locally. CRIT airport doesn't give a shit and will sell as much as you want right on the tarmac.

I meant to say that you can find fuel labeled "Unleaded AvGas" pretty much every city at the pump but only airports sell leaded.

Parker oil usually has Unleaded, not leaded.

Parker Oil does get leaded sometimes but I suspect it's the stuff that CRIT airport won't except for whatever reason, who knows. I'd rather buy it at the airport at that point knowing that shit has to keep humans aloft. If it's good for them it's good for me lol.

That's it right there!

They don't want shit falling out of the sky, so they don't fuck with AV gas too much.

He also just told me...

"Technically there's no highway tax that's why they don't sell it for vehicles in California. "

Guess that makes sense. Oh well!

 

[Paul65k]

It's almost impossible to buy AV gas in CA anymore. AZ might be different, I would guess Wheeler would know.

Parker Oil sells non alcohol ingested fuel. That would be your best bet for any kinna long term storage.

Candidly a group of 4 of us all fueled up at Parker oil with that non ethanol premium and rode to Las Vegas with our Harleys......to a man every bike ran like shit and got AWFUL mileage.....we filled up in Vegas and rode for 4 more days completely without incident. Now to be clear none of these bikes had a catalytic converter and they were all "Tuned" for performance so that certainly was not the issue.

I for one will NEVER buy that shitty gas again from Parker oil. I now buy the non-ethanol fuel from Campbell cove and have had no issues.

 

[Bigbore500r]

I've gotten by running the boat in October and parking till desert storm (end of April) without any issues. Usually gets out away with 1/4 tanks. Only thing I do is fill the tanks full with 91 when I pull it out in April, fresh fuel filter during service and I usually toss a bottle of octane boost in if there was a considerable amount of October gas in there. Been fine for the last 7 years. I have had to do a low pressure fuel pump, but that's about the only issue I've had.
502 EFI

Been thinking about pulling the injectors this winter and sending them to be flowed / rebuilt, make sure they are all within spec.

That will kill an open loop EFI motor quickly - one bad injector leaning out a cylinder.

 

[rivermobster]

Candidly a group of 4 of us all fueled up at Parker oil with that non ethanol premium and rode to Las Vegas with our Harleys......to a man every bike ran like shit and got AWFUL mileage.....we filled up in Vegas and rode for 4 more days completely without incident. Now to be clear none of these bikes had a catalytic converter and they were all "Tuned" for performance so that certainly was not the issue.

I for one will NEVER buy that shitty gas again from Parker oil. I now buy the non-ethanol fuel from Campbell cove and have had no issues.

Interesting indeed. Thanks Paul. 👍

 

[LHC Kirby]

ZIP gas in Havasu is supplied by the Parker refinery... Which supplies that SHITTY gas station in Parker.... NEVER get gas at either... FYI.

 

[welldigger00]

I've never had any problems getting AV gas in socal. Redlands airport, and big bear airport are the ones I use. There is no one attending Redlands airport usually, so I follow a car in, and go right to the pump. At big bear, there is a front desk that you walk up to, tell them you need gas, and they open the gate for you. BTW, I ruin one O2 sensor a year on AV gas. It's part of doing business for me.

 

[Taboma]

In Havasu they sell AvGas at that Chevron / Tri-M minimart on the corner of Smoke Tree and Swanson just west of the 95 (Heading into Rotary Park) --- does anybody know if that's Low Lead or No Lead and 100 Octane ??
Is AvGas octane rated on the same basis as road gas ?

 

[rivrrts429]

In Havasu they sell AvGas at that Chevron / Tri-M minimart on the corner of Smoke Tree and Swanson just west of the 95 (Heading into Rotary Park) --- does anybody know if that's Low Lead or No Lead and 100 Octane ??
Is AvGas octane rated on the same basis as road gas ?

Anything at the drive up pump is going to be No lead. As said earlier there is no road taxes on Low Lead as well as the lead content is a no go for passenger cars. I've never seen leaded fuel at a standard drive up fuel station, only airports.

It's actually a slippery slope and grey area but leaded fuel isn't supposed to be sold to any passenger vehicle or watercraft, airplanes only.

I'm pretty sure it has similar octane ratings and the lead in 100LL AvGas is to help eliminate detonation in supercharged/turbo applications in airplanes.

 

[Taboma]

Quoting myself

"In Havasu they sell AvGas at that Chevron / Tri-M minimart on the corner of Smoke Tree and Swanson just west of the 95 (Heading into Rotary Park) --- does anybody know if that's Low Lead or No Lead and 100 Octane ??
Is AvGas octane rated on the same basis as road gas ?"

Anything at the drive up pump is going to be No lead. As said earlier there is no road taxes on Low Lead as well as the lead content is a no go for passenger cars. I've never seen leaded fuel at a standard drive up fuel station, only airports.

It's actually a slippery slope and grey area but leaded fuel isn't supposed to be sold to any passenger vehicle or watercraft, airplanes only.

I'm pretty sure it has similar octane ratings and the lead in 100LL AvGas is to help eliminate detonation in supercharged/turbo applications in airplanes.

Curious I decided to make a couple of phone calls. I know I'd seen AvGas at the Chevron / Tri-M minimart, I knew it had the large nozzle, but hadn't really looked to see exactly what it was.
I know when this station used to be Union 76 I bought 100LL for the boat here on several occasions.

Per my phone call --- they are selling 100/110 LL AvGas, it is NOT unleaded, nozzle will not fit in your car, so marine use only ?

I also called the Kiowa Drive Thru located at Kiowa Blvd. N and Avalon because their web page showed AvGas. Per my call, they're also selling 100LL AvGas at the pumps.

In this thread there's been talk about the Non-Ethanol gas being sold at Cambell Cove, what I assumed was it was pre-ethanol era gasoline, what I hadn't imagine is that it's not that at all but 100% corn-based bio-fuel made for the marine market. I haven't tried it, but I did find this recent article about it, I apologize if this is a VIN

I have no idea if this is the same non-ethanol gas being sold by Parker Oil ??

I'm also not sure since this is essentially a new type of fuel, not old school petro-gasoline, how we can assume anything about it's shelf life.


Per this article : http://www.havasunews.com/news/hava...cle_074f78a0-9108-11e6-99f1-9b4a49a060d3.html

A Lake Havasu City gas station may be the first in the nation to offer a new form of ethanol-free biofuel.

Campbell Cove 1-Stop is now offering isobutanol ? a corn-derived biofuel that claims to offer about 30 percent more energy content than ethanol while remaining environmentally sustainable. The fuel also differs from ethanol-based biofuel in that it doesn?t absorb moisture or create excess pressure, which can otherwise lead to long-term engine damage.

The gas station, located at 1521 Industrial Blvd, began selling the fuel in late August. The new product replaced Campbell Cove 1-Stop?s 100-octane racing fuel, which was dispensed using red pumps at the station. The pumps are of a larger size than standard for street vehicles, and according to employees of the store, are only compatible with boats and off-road vehicles.

Campbell Cove owner Jim Dolan foresees a higher demand for isobutanol in the near future. The new biofuel is 91-octane, making it equivalent to super unleaded gasoline offered by most gas stations. The fuel is processed by Musket Corp, and distributed to Dolan?s business through Jackson Oil.

?I think we?re the first to offer it in the U.S.,? Dolan said. ?The Lake Havasu Marine Association talked about it, and GEVO has worked with a lot of manufacturers to solve the problems with ethanol. I hope it will eventually become a replacement for ethanol.?

The biofuel is distributed by GEVO Marine Fuels. The company says five years of research and thousands of hours of laboratory and on-water testing were applied in the fuel?s creation, which applied a different chemical process to the creation of corn-based fuel additives. The company says its fuel will eliminate negative impacts associated with ethanol and blended fuels while remaining fully compatible with boat engines and small engines, as well as gas-powered generators.

?Isobutanol is about 50 cents more expensive than premium gasoline, but I hope the price goes down once its use becomes more widespread,? Dolan said. ?With our boat traffic, I saw a bigger opportunity with isobutanol than our 100-octane racing fuel.?

The new biofuel was approved in June 2015 by the National Marine Manufacturers Association as a drop-in fuel for marine and recreational boat engines.

GEVO has already eyed markets elsewhere in Mohave County for isobutanol, and Wet Monkey Boat Rentals, at 1685 Industrial Blvd, has already begun to use the biofuel exclusively in its rental watercraft, Dolan says.

 

[rivermobster]

Hmmmmmmmmm...

http://msdssearch.dow.com/Published...ents/pdfs/noreg/327-00015.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

 

[rivermobster]

Well now!!!

http://www.biofuelsdigest.com/bdige...l-a-new-product-from-revamped-ethanol-plants/

One oil company took an alternative view. Gulf Racing Fuels is responsible for the off-road fuels of Gulf Oil. They specialize in boutique fuels to meet the needs for high performance and specialty engines. Most importantly, Gulf does not use ethanol. Gulf knew that there was an entire class of consumers who only wanted an ethanol-free fuel. They also knew this market segment had very high price elasticity. Stated more simply, they would pay more for an ethanol-free fuel.
In 2014, the first commercially available ethanol-free EPA-approved gasoline was created by Gulf Racing Fuels under the brand names Gulf Marine, Gulf ATV, and Gulf Off Road; Table II. In 2015, the National Marine Manufacturers Association endorsed gasoline blended with Isobutanol over all ethanol-blended gasoline.
Now Gulf is in the process of transferring the intellectual property of the ethanol-free gasoline to Gulf-branded marinas and gas stations. Other oil companies will be joining in the market as the fuel can be produced and sold profitably in commercial volumes.

 

[Taboma]

Hmmmmmmmmm...

http://msdssearch.dow.com/Published...ents/pdfs/noreg/327-00015.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

Yeah Hmmmmm indeed :eek OK, so not ethanol, but alcohol is still hydrophilic :eek. Seems odd that the marine industry is embracing this, unless it's purely driven to negate some of the other undesirable qualities of ethanol :headscratch:

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Hmmmmmmmmm...

http://msdssearch.dow.com/Published...ents/pdfs/noreg/327-00015.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

A sweet musty odor indeed.

 

[Taboma]

A sweet musty odor indeed.

Hey, I remember her

 

[OldSchoolBoats]

So when I got to Havasu my tanks were pretty much empty so I put $50 worth of the ethanol free fuel from Campbell Cove in each tank. I ran one tank almost dry and have a only a little above empty in the other.

The ethanol free fuel at Campbell Cove was almost $1/gallon more than regular 87 that I usually run.

Boat ran amazing and should be good to put away for the winter now.

 

[Taboma]

So when I got to Havasu my tanks were pretty much empty so I put $50 worth of the ethanol free fuel from Campbell Cove in each tank. I ran one tank almost dry and have a only a little above empty in the other.

The ethanol free fuel at Campbell Cove was almost $1/gallon more than regular 87 that I usually run.

Boat ran amazing and should be good to put away for the winter now.

Just curious if you read the article / info on page 7 of this thread regarding that Campbell Cove GEVO "Non Ethanol" bio-fuel ?

It's not ethanol free (Pre-ethanol) old school "gasoline", it's made from Corn like ethanol, just a different process, but is 100% alcohol based bio-fuel.

At least with Av Gas we know what we're getting and we know there's no long term negatives.

 

[OldSchoolBoats]

Just curious if you read the article / info on page 7 of this thread regarding that Campbell Cove GEVO "Non Ethanol" bio-fuel ?

It's not ethanol free (Pre-ethanol) old school "gasoline", it's made from Corn like ethanol, just a different process, but is 100% alcohol based bio-fuel.

At least with Av Gas we know what we're getting and we know there's no long term negatives.

Sure did!

 

[boatnam2]

Another thing to consider is RVP for you sticklers, if you plan on using it into next month and filling up you will be putting in 12.5 rvp, versus 5.8 rvp summer gas, I dont do shit myself, run it into early December and break it out again in march, if the gas don't go bad sitting in a 135 degree storage unit for a month or so, not too worried about it sitting a coupe months in 65 degrees and going bad. I guess if i had a 1200 hp deal might worry about it, thank god i can't afford 1200 hp.

 

[BHC Vic]

I think I'll just try to run it every few weeks. Hopefully be out there next weekend.

 

[Cray Paper]

Been wondering about this as I'm going to be winterizing the boat next weekend. The past 4 years I have been running the tanks low in September, refilling with Chevron premium (with ethanol) and adding Stabil marine (blue) at the appropriate rate and haven't had a problem. We used the boat way more than we did this year though. I also change out the fuel water fuel separator filter in the spring, except for last spring. This year I only ran a couple of tanks of gas through the boat, the last time it was run was in early August. I plan to siphon as much gas out as possible, then refilling with premium and stabil. I live north of Seattle and our winters can be really mild, like last year, or cold for weeks on end, several times. Cold meaning single digits. The boat is stored in a Shelter Logic canvas shelter in my back yard so the temps are the boat experiences are ambient. Last winter we only had a handful of days below freezing and for the most part, it was in the high 30- low 40's. With the low hours this past summer, should I change the fuel / water separator filter this coming spring?

 

[Kailuaboy89]

Gas does not last more than 3 months these days, I try not to store anything with fuel in it, but if you must, add some stabil, and just put fresh fuel on top of it at beginning of next season and should be good to go..

 

[OldSchoolBoats]

I am hoping that we get some good rains. Last February we were on Elsinore for a Friday when it was almost 80 out. Lake is too low right now and I won't even launch.

Pray for rain!!

 

[JM21]

I was just up by Elsinore last week. Lowest I have ever seen it. Pray for rain!!!

 

[BHC Vic]

Wasn't Elsinore closed for some reason not too long ago?

 

[rivrrts429]

Wasn't Elsinore closed for some reason not too long ago?

Yep, algae bloom. I think Silverwood and Pyramid for the same thing.

 

[RogerThat99]

For the people using StaBil. Are you using the "Storage" type or the "360 Marine" type? Only one person specified which type they were using (360 Marine). I was thinking of trying the 360 marine version.

 

[lbhsbz]

I run my tanks a bit low on the last trip, then fill 'em up and I've never had an issue. I do use non-ethanol gas from Parker oil now, but even before that...never an issue. Give it a sniff, if it still smells like gas, it'll still burn.

 

[Bradsrvrtoy.]

Gas does not last more than 3 months these days, I try not to store anything with fuel in it, but if you must, add some stabil, and just put fresh fuel on top of it at beginning of next season and should be good to go..

This! The gas today doesnt last! I see it on a regular basis. Run fuel stabizer and park it. No issues..Just make sure you mix the stabyl in the tank and run it through the fuel lines and injectors before storing it..otherwise your motor wont run next season but youll have 50 gallons of stabylized fuel in the tank.

I worry more with bad fuel than condensation build up in the tanks (boats in garages and not on water).The fuel today is shit. Low fuel stored level and stabyl and have had no issues..Change water seperating fuel filter and service after first run of the season.

 

[BHC Vic]

Left a quarter in each tank this weekend. Probably go back this weekend or right after thanksgiving [emoji4]

 

[FreeBird236]

For the people using StaBil. Are you using the "Storage" type or the "360 Marine" type? Only one person specified which type they were using (360 Marine). I was thinking of trying the 360 marine version.

I'm going on my ninth winter, I originally just used the red StaBil for about the first five years, then switched to the blue marine about 4 years ago and the 360 last year. Never really had any problems with fuel that I know about, also heard it's not quite as critical in Havasu's climate. My mechanic has added a Mercury additive in the spring with the service. I have had bad luck with spark plugs, changed twice in 140 hours, don't think it was fuel related.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I'm going on my ninth winter, I originally just used the red StaBil for about the first five years, then switched to the blue marine about 4 years ago and the 360 last year. Never really had any problems with fuel that I know about, also heard it's not quite as critical in Havasu's climate. My mechanic has added a Mercury additive in the spring with the service. I have had bad luck with spark plugs, changed twice in 140 hours, don't think it was fuel related.

If running copper plugs, that is not so bad.

 

[FreeBird236]

It's a 496 HO, both sets were iridium. They seem to have broken internally, complete misfire until they warmed up then expand and make contact for the rest of the day, then next time out dead again. Have about 20 hrs on the newest set, working fine.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

It's a 496 HO, both sets were iridium. They seem to have broken internally, complete misfire until they warmed up then expand and make contact for the rest of the day, then next time out dead again. Have about 20 hrs on the newest set, working fine.

Same brand each time? Is/was the gap set right? Regardless, that is weird. I wonder if they are getting too wet with fuel under cold start, or if it is some spark blowout issue.

I like good old copper NGK plugs personally (TR55 in my case). I change them with the cap and rotor every 2 years.

 

[FreeBird236]

Same brand each time? Is/was the gap set right? Regardless, that is weird. I wonder if they are getting too wet with fuel under cold start, or if it is some spark blowout issue.

I like good old copper NGK plugs personally (TR55 in my case). I change them with the cap and rotor every 2 years.

The first two sets were AC Delco, they looked perfect. The current set are NGK which I was told made the Delco. I may change to copper if these don't last. I was told everything looks fine on the dyno.

 

[TexasJet]

Sta-bil 360 marine formula in full tank for the winter. It's in the gas for the lawnmower, weedeater and power washer. Never any issues for years.