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Intercooler on 7lbs of boost?

GreenEnergy28

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Since I had to pull the engine, I had it built for turbos. Getting everything mocked up and about ready to start fabbing the cold side. I have seen several turbo cars run without an intercooler, and on low boost (7lbs), I'm sure I'll be fine without one. I know that a colder charge air is always better, but I don't really think that I will gain much considering all the extra work it will involve.... Thoughts?

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GreenEnergy28

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The plan is to run pump gas. My fuel system can handle corn, but I don't want to burn through my 15gal tank every half hour...lol!
7# should be enough to put me in the 750-ish crank that will keep my Fortin transaxle alive.
 

Bajastu

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I agree, run an intercooler or add a bigger tank and run E85. If you run without either, you’re just limiting the life of the engine.
 

Gelcoater

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On a draw through set up I’d say pass.
What I see going on there, plumb it in now.

Saw a rotary powered car with a draw through deal, the intake manifold would frost like a beer fresh out of the fridge.
 

JUSTWANNARACE

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Water/meth injection if you dont want an intercooler. Just a thought
 

GreenEnergy28

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On a draw through set up I’d say pass.
What I see going on there, plumb it in now.

Saw a rotary powered car with a draw through deal, the intake manifold would frost like a beer fresh out of the fridge.
Yeah, my draw through turbo VW setup would frost up. That was a fun build but seemed like I was constantly working on it. I ended up selling that engine to a guy who put it in a street car. Would have been fun to see that on the street!
 

DaveH

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intercooler all the way. 7lb on the street where you cant keep you foot in it is nothing compared to the sand where you are in it all day and making considerable more heat. i would run an intercooler and 100+ octane in that thing at 7lbs.
 

GreenEnergy28

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Well, finally picked out the intercooler for this build. Got it ordered today. I've had a bunch of other projects to work on but trying to get the car buttoned up so I can have it ready for the season.
Anyone have a tuner in the IE they would recommend?

 

evantwheeler

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Well, finally picked out the intercooler for this build. Got it ordered today. I've had a bunch of other projects to work on but trying to get the car buttoned up so I can have it ready for the season.
Anyone have a tuner in the IE they would recommend?

Lance Loader / Dunehoon down in Chula Vista. As suggested above, Redline or Danzio also have great reputations. Lance would have likely pushed you to stay no intercooler and go E85. He tunes a bunch of sand cars, mine included (although im NA).
 

GreenEnergy28

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Man, the boating season trips have really put me behind on the buggy build...
I had to pull the ECU and send it out to fix the IAC controller. I messed around with the I/C to figure out where to mount it. I decided to mount it over the engine so now I'm working on the mounts. Got the 80# injectors and some aluminum tubing ordered.
I hit up Danzio to see about scheduling a tuning session, but they only work with Life Racing and Motrec ECU's. I reached out to Lance and Darden this morning. Hopfully I don't have an issue with tuning this thing.

I'm thinking with a fan, or a scoop, I should get good air flow here.

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Made up the cross bars
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Having the radiator off to one side is really messing with me. I'm going to have to live with it though. LOL

My buddy gave me some RGB lights so I went ahead and got them wired up while I'm waiting for parts to come in.
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Racey

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Since I had to pull the engine, I had it built for turbos. Getting everything mocked up and about ready to start fabbing the cold side. I have seen several turbo cars run without an intercooler, and on low boost (7lbs), I'm sure I'll be fine without one. I know that a colder charge air is always better, but I don't really think that I will gain much considering all the extra work it will involve.... Thoughts?

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It will help immensely. There is no reason to not run the cooler, they are cheap and they drop the charge temps easily by 50F at 7psi

Big difference between your engine ingesting 140-160F air, vs 80-100F air.

You made the smart call. Even without fans you would be blown away by the temperature delta those heat exchangers make.

Me and DaveH have done extensive testing with them. We always run temp sensors on both sides for data logging. They work amazingly well.


I would be a little concerned with that waste gate position location. When you run at west tech start by running with no springs in the waste gate at all, with the lines set up to open the gates, and see how low you can get the boost.

If you can't get it down to 2-3psi you will need to rework that header. Ask me how i know this 😆😆

It's referred to as 'Waste Gate Priority', and you wouldn't think it makes that much of a difference when you look at how the system works, but it has huge ramifications.
 
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DaveH

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It will help immensely. There is no reason to not run the cooler, they are cheap and they drop the charge temps easily by 50F at 7psi

Big difference between your engine ingesting 140-160F air, vs 80-100F air.

You made the smart call. Even without fans you would be blown away by the temperature delta those heat exchangers make.

Me and DaveH have done extensive testing with them. We always run temp sensors on both sides for data logging. They work amazingly well.


I would be a little concerned with that waste gate position location. When you run at west tech start by running with no springs in the waste gate at all, with the lines set up to open the gates, and see how low you can get the boost.

If you can't get it down to 2-3psi you will need to rework that header. Ask me how i know this 😆😆

It's referred to as 'Waste Gate Priority', and you wouldn't think it makes that much of a difference when you look at how the system works, but it has huge ramifications.
pretty much spot on, i agree you could have a problem getting the gate to work down low, testing will reveal this.

the other thing is that intercooler NEEDS a scoop. where it sits right now, all its going to do is absorb radiant heat off the engine. not good.
 

GreenEnergy28

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It will help immensely. There is no reason to not run the cooler, they are cheap and they drop the charge temps easily by 50F at 7psi

Big difference between your engine ingesting 140-160F air, vs 80-100F air.

You made the smart call. Even without fans you would be blown away by the temperature delta those heat exchangers make.

Me and DaveH have done extensive testing with them. We always run temp sensors on both sides for data logging. They work amazingly well.


I would be a little concerned with that waste gate position location. When you run at west tech start by running with no springs in the waste gate at all, with the lines set up to open the gates, and see how low you can get the boost.

If you can't get it down to 2-3psi you will need to rework that header. Ask me how i know this 😆😆

It's referred to as 'Waste Gate Priority', and you wouldn't think it makes that much of a difference when you look at how the system works, but it has huge ramifications.
I agree with the waste gate position. I read a lot about that and understand what you're saying.👍 I'm sure this is an older setup that guy I bought the car from picked up. I obviously was never on this car. Since the headers/turbos/gates/ and BOV came with the car when I bought it, I am running them for now. I would like to get a set of Hot Head Headers down the road. Dave built the headers for my last car, and they came out great. Trying to get this thing back in the desert on a bit of a budget though, so hopefully these will work for now.

pretty much spot on, i agree you could have a problem getting the gate to work down low, testing will reveal this.

the other thing is that intercooler NEEDS a scoop. where it sits right now, all its going to do is absorb radiant heat off the engine. not good.
Scoop, or fans to blow through? Maybe even both???
 

DaveH

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I agree with the waste gate position. I read a lot about that and understand what you're saying.👍 I'm sure this is an older setup that guy I bought the car from picked up. I obviously was never on this car. Since the headers/turbos/gates/ and BOV came with the car when I bought it, I am running them for now. I would like to get a set of Hot Head Headers down the road. Dave built the headers for my last car, and they came out great. Trying to get this thing back in the desert on a bit of a budget though, so hopefully these will work for now.


Scoop, or fans to blow through? Maybe even both???
the headers may or may not be a problem. you will only know by taking the springs out and see what the minimum boost you can run really is. if it makes boost with no spring......yeah the gate position in the header needs to be reworked and/or your gates are to small.

I would not put fans in it.......yet......just a scoop and maybe even some sort of deflector underneath it to help it with heat soak in that location. typically you are making boost up top when the car has some decent natural airflow and air to air coolers can work quite well.

the only really way to know is to put a temp sensor after the turbo and after the intercooler, and log the delta. it also helps a bunch to have an ambient air temp sensor to gauge your data against as ambient will have a big impact on cooler efficiency.

another thing to think about is not all coolers are the same. cheap chineesium coolers dont just cool as efficiently, they can be very restrictive and create boost loss across the cooler. just put a pressure gauge before and after the cooler to measure.

dynos are great for setting up the boost control, but very few have a dyno that can replicate the same airflow conditions in the real world, you need to go test in realistic conditions to judge intercooler effectiveness.

oh and do yourself a favor and get rid of those shark bite pneumatic fittings. they work for a while.....but eventually sand gets in and they will leak or even come off. that can lead to catastrophe.
 

GreenEnergy28

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the headers may or may not be a problem. you will only know by taking the springs out and see what the minimum boost you can run really is. if it makes boost with no spring......yeah the gate position in the header needs to be reworked and/or your gates are to small.

I would not put fans in it.......yet......just a scoop and maybe even some sort of deflector underneath it to help it with heat soak in that location. typically you are making boost up top when the car has some decent natural airflow and air to air coolers can work quite well.

the only really way to know is to put a temp sensor after the turbo and after the intercooler, and log the delta. it also helps a bunch to have an ambient air temp sensor to gauge your data against as ambient will have a big impact on cooler efficiency.

another thing to think about is not all coolers are the same. cheap chineesium coolers dont just cool as efficiently, they can be very restrictive and create boost loss across the cooler. just put a pressure gauge before and after the cooler to measure.

dynos are great for setting up the boost control, but very few have a dyno that can replicate the same airflow conditions in the real world, you need to go test in realistic conditions to judge intercooler effectiveness.

oh and do yourself a favor and get rid of those shark bite pneumatic fittings. they work for a while.....but eventually sand gets in and they will leak or even come off. that can lead to catastrophe.
Thank you for the helpful insight.
 

JLG614

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Definitely add a scope to the intercooler. My engine/radiator/intercooler set up is almost identical to yours. If I didn’t have the scoop I know my car wouldn’t run right, even with the scoop my intake temp can get up there on a hot day. I ran my scoop right over the radiator shroud. When I bought the car it didn’t have a fan on the inter cooler. Never had an issue but I opted to add a fan on it when I rewired the car just to push more air through it


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GreenEnergy28

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My concern with a scoop is that I will be pulling hot air from the radiator into the IC. Especially with the fans from the radiator blowing over it... If I us pusher fans, I'm thinking I will get cleaner air moving through it?
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Romans9

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Nice!

Looking forward to seeing your results.
 

DaveH

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Nice!

Looking forward to seeing your results.
x2 how did the intercooler work out? granted on a dyno airflow is not like in the real world, but interested to see how it did
 

GreenEnergy28

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Well... We weren't able to make a pull.
Got the car on the dyno. Erick was on the laptop working on idle and drivability stuff. Everything was going well. Shut the car off to make a throttle plate adjustment. Started the car up again and saw 0 oil pressure :mad:
With the fires a mile from my house, I wasn't able to work on the car. My garage was not a good place to be with all the smoke. Then we had Campland booked over the weekend.
Finally got the oil pan off last night. Just dropped it off with the engine builder so he can look at the residue at the bottom and give me his thoughts. I don't think anything got hurt but want him to say it looks okay. I'm almost certain that once I get the oil pump off, I'll find the bypass valve stuck open. I didn't have the right puller to remove the balancer last night, so I'll have to grab one from work.

Had to tighten the clamp on the intake tube. Almost blew it off. LOL
 

GreenEnergy28

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Bypass was stuck open causing the loss of oil pressure. Mike gave me to green light to run it, so threw another oil pump in it. I'm not sure what caused the failure on the last pump, but I made sure to follow all of Melling's installation instruction since I installed this pump myself.
She's got good oil pressure again, and Erick has me booked for the Dyno on Thursday. Fingers crossed things go my way this time.


 
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