Hydraulic Steering Install

[Ultra247]

Hey guys,

Boating related. I've to a 21' Eliminator with a 454 / Bravo 1 with standard Mercruiser power steering. I plan to add more power in the future so I want to start with an upgrade to external hydraulic steering. That raises a few questions. Should I do double cylinder or is single cylinder adequate? Do I go with Imco or one of the Rex Marine systems? Which system is recommended? My swim step bracket and my exhaust tips are close so I need to go with the narrow mount design. Is that a big issue or does it work fine?

Current top speed is 65 and I'm hoping to get into the high 70's

Any input would be appreciated.

 

[JBS]

Imco system is the best in my opinion have had it on three boats

A single ram should be fine but it is not that much more to go dual. I would suggest you do full hydraulic to the helm

Not familiar with what Rex sells


Sent from my Black iPhone

 

[Abc123]

IMCO all the way.

Post some pics of your transom.

If you want 70's find a used HO.

 

[Marine Industries West]

I've got a nice full Hydraulic Latham system that I'm selling. It's complete, all new hoses, braided outside, aeroquip rubber inside. Half price compared to this Latham system new. Here's a link,
http://www.recycleperformance.com/servlet/the-1066/latham-marine-external-full/Detail

 

[TPC]

Where can I buy the Mercury fluid for the PS and does it have a specific name?

 

[Ultra247]

I've attached a picture of the transom. The issue is also going to be interference with the swim step. How do you get around that or do I have to remove the swim step and go to separate billet steps?

 

[Abc123]

I've attached a picture of the transom. The issue is also going to be interference with the swim step. How do you get around that or do I have to remove the swim step and go to separate billet steps?

I think that step is gonna be a pain in the ass. Besides, the billet one will look better:thumbsup

The tips shouldn't be in the way. Where are you planning to have the install done?

 

[Stainless]

Hey Recycle, seen your store on eBay, did not realize your a member on RDP

 

[79schiada]

I went with a dual Zeiger on mine. Full hydraulic from tilt helm back. Nice system. Couldn't afford a Latham. I heard a few Imco horror stories and that swayed me to the Zeiger.

 

[Rexone]

Zeiger are the systems we prefer, great quality. Not the cheapest stuff on the market though. But there's usually a reason for that. Please call us for details or questions on Zieger steering, 909-592-1000

 

[BoostPower]

Latham steering is what we prefer, however the others are good as well. The main thing is the install. Make sure the geometry is set properly or you will loose max lock to lock swing.
On V drives we use a special ram made up with 2 eyelits.


Sent from My Boostpower Marine Efi Beacon.

 

[Marine Industries West]

Hey Recycle, seen your store on eBay, did not realize your a member on RDP

I've been in the industry for quite some time. Just now getting ready to launch Recycle Performance and my rigging company BJ's Marine here on RDP. I worked at Dana Marine for years and I maintained the Dana section here on RDP.

On the swim step issue, if you're interested in some nice billet steps, let me know, I have some new old stock steps and I can hook you up with a nice price.

 

[Ultra247]

Thanks for the feedback guys. So the first question is, what is the performance difference between the add on systems and the "to the helm" systems? I understand that the add on systems install to the mercruiser valve system. The "to the helm" systems require a complete install to the wheel. Why is the installation to the helm better?

Second is feedback for Rexone. I've purchased parts from Rex Marine for years and appreciate your service and support. Your website only has the Teleflex steering system. The CP Performance site has the specifics on Zeiger and Mayfair Marine (Hardin Marine) systems. You may want to update the site in the future. This is only meant as a constructive comment as I appreciate your organization.

Thanks for the feedback guys

 

[Marine Industries West]

The add-on systems will be significantly less money. The draw back is the continued use of your stock helm and steering cable with this type of install. The helms and cables traditionally have steering wheel slop that will not be eliminated with an add-on system.

The full hydraulic will be super smooth with no play or slop in the wheel. It will offer more precise steering with small movements of the wheel compared to a stock cable system that can sometimes wander at the wheel.

It's more $$$ to go full hydraulic, but well worth the extra money. I'd rather see you go full hydraulic single cylinder VS. a two cylinder add-on.

 

[spectras only]

While Recycle Performance is right about the full system with no play in the steering , if your cable is fairly new with minimum or no slop ,the constant hydraulic pressure from the p/s pump will keep the drive fairly steady with only minimal input from the driver for correction. There's an advantage of the cable/external ram application. In case of fluid loss, power steering pump or hose failure , you still have steering input by the cable to get you home without a tow. I like the smoothness of a full system , but having a sliding door go behind the helm in my boat ,there's no clearence for even the smallest hydraulic helm unit. Could move the wheel back with adapter but then ,would have to move the bolster seat back too. Looks like you have a problem with ram placement to have enough movement for the drive .The swimgrid bracket seem to be the biggest issue . You would have a reduced angle with the ram installed next to the bracket ,albeit still have steering ,but less sharp turning capability.
Here's the rear end of my boat. I can turn super sharp with my setup.
Marine Machine equipped [ not in business anymore ] ,Latham is good .

 

[Rexone]

Thanks for the feedback guys. So the first question is, what is the performance difference between the add on systems and the "to the helm" systems? I understand that the add on systems install to the mercruiser valve system. The "to the helm" systems require a complete install to the wheel. Why is the installation to the helm better?

Second is feedback for Rexone. I've purchased parts from Rex Marine for years and appreciate your service and support. Your website only has the Teleflex steering system. The CP Performance site has the specifics on Zeiger and Mayfair Marine (Hardin Marine) systems. You may want to update the site in the future. This is only meant as a constructive comment as I appreciate your organization.

Thanks for the feedback guys

Here is the Rex page on Zieger below. Also a link to the Zeiger site for more detailed info. Yes our page needs updating.

 

[BoostPower]

Full Hydraulic is smooth and nice but one thing not discussed unless I missed it is the fact that full hydraulic steering never self centers. So, if you have a 3 spoke steering wheel, every time you drive straight it will be in a different spot. The other major reason we talk folks out of add on is the fact that you must retain the stock control valve at the rear of the boat. Our concern is the fact that if you have dual ram on the outside and the single cable, rack or pin fails you are then in gods hands.
I get that if the power steering fails you can still steer, however you can with hydraulic as well, however with no assist. Just like the cable it will be stiff. Unless you blow a hose, seal or break a ram ( highly unlikely) you will make it to the trailer upon failure.
SAFTEY is the primary reason one should consider hyd steering and think it through, stability second even though they are directly related.
No matter who's steering you get, they almost all use Eaton helms or what they refer as char Lynn helms, they commonly use Parker or equivelant high pressure Hyd Hose and they all use some type of stainless steel ram system. The Z brand has very stout brackets and nice rams.
I guess part of the ultimate decision will be how fast is this boat going now and potentially in the future?
Usually like everything else we do, we end up selling someone a helm with a specific turn lock to lock ratio, a specific pre-made high pressure hose kit (so you don't need to make ends and take a chance of a leak), special filter kit with a billet bracket, then after sorting out the oil lines we then choose a ram kit for the outside. Some want braided hose, some want polished wing plates etc etc.
The other key ingredient in hydraulic steering is the power steering pump. ( especially on full Hyd)
The orafice size on the outlet psi port on the pumps. You can modify those to butter up the steering at idle.
When we install steering, we use a psi gauge to balance the system after it is bleed to make the idle steering smooth as silk. Some systems just are stiff.
Anyway, just figured I would give our 2 cents. Picture is a typical Imco steering system. As soon as my Internet guy gets back he will be uploading the custom steering parts and pricing to Boostpower.com. At the moment it is in limbo. Thanks


Sent from My Boostpower Marine Efi Beacon.

 

[Run_em_Hard]

I have a full Lathem setup on my current boat. I had the twin ram external on my last boat. I will have a real hard time ever going back to a cable. Once you have full hydraulic, everything else feels sloppy. I don't care how new your cable is, its still not as tight.

 

[2FORCEFULL]

I've been in the industry for quite some time. Just now getting ready to launch Recycle Performance and my rigging company BJ's Marine here on RDP. I worked at Dana Marine for years and I maintained the Dana section here on RDP.

On the swim step issue, if you're interested in some nice billet steps, let me know, I have some new old stock steps and I can hook you up with a nice price.

Bob?

 

[BoostPower]

Full Hyd Rules!:champagne:

 

[DaveC]

I just went throught this. Several people told me to get full hydraulic for my Cat and I should have listened.

I did just installed a single ram "add-on" system on to a 6 year old boat (cat).

What I learned was that certain hull types wear out the stock gimbal when they are run without any external power steering. I understand that how much the gimbal wears depends on the boat. (each being different)

There will be play in both the cable and the gimbal (if worn out). So in my case the gimbal already had significant wear in it and the add on system does not take care of it. The cable was actually still tight. (go figure) So I still have quite a bit of play due to the worn out gimbal. If I replaced the cable with a new one it would make no difference I would still have play side-to-side. Even with the play that I still have it is still significantly more stable than before. so in my case I needed full hydraulic due to the worn out gimbal. Your experience may vary.

The full hydraulic system eliminates the steering components that go through the gimbal. The add on system just uses the stock steering components but adds a valve to the stock steering.

so whether you go full hydraulic or not depends on how much slop you have through the cable AND gimbal.

I got the IMCO steering and am happy with it. Plus they are setting me up a package for the parts for just the full hydraulic helm (because no PN#'s exist for just the hydraulic helm).

 

[JBS]

Full Hydraulic is smooth and nice but one thing not discussed unless I missed it is the fact that full hydraulic steering never self centers. So, if you have a 3 spoke steering wheel, every time you drive straight it will be in a different spot. The other major reason we talk folks out of add on is the fact that you must retain the stock control valve at the rear of the boat. Our concern is the fact that if you have dual ram on the outside and the single cable, rack or pin fails you are then in gods hands.
I get that if the power steering fails you can still steer, however you can with hydraulic as well, however with no assist. Just like the cable it will be stiff. Unless you blow a hose, seal or break a ram ( highly unlikely) you will make it to the trailer upon failure.
SAFTEY is the primary reason one should consider hyd steering and think it through, stability second even though they are directly related.
No matter who's steering you get, they almost all use Eaton helms or what they refer as char Lynn helms, they commonly use Parker or equivelant high pressure Hyd Hose and they all use some type of stainless steel ram system. The Z brand has very stout brackets and nice rams.
I guess part of the ultimate decision will be how fast is this boat going now and potentially in the future?
Usually like everything else we do, we end up selling someone a helm with a specific turn lock to lock ratio, a specific pre-made high pressure hose kit (so you don't need to make ends and take a chance of a leak), special filter kit with a billet bracket, then after sorting out the oil lines we then choose a ram kit for the outside. Some want braided hose, some want polished wing plates etc etc.
The other key ingredient in hydraulic steering is the power steering pump. ( especially on full Hyd)
The orafice size on the outlet psi port on the pumps. You can modify those to butter up the steering at idle.
When we install steering, we use a psi gauge to balance the system after it is bleed to make the idle steering smooth as silk. Some systems just are stiff.
Anyway, just figured I would give our 2 cents. Picture is a typical Imco steering system. As soon as my Internet guy gets back he will be uploading the custom steering parts and pricing to Boostpower.com. At the moment it is in limbo. Thanks


Sent from My Boostpower Marine Efi Beacon.

Great write up:thumbsup

Business like yours totally impress me. Rather than just purchasing someone else's stuff and reselling you take it to a new level with the Custom pieces and true knowledge of the product.

 

[Marine Industries West]

Bob?

Yes Sir. Been laying low for the last 6 months. We're getting up and running.

 

[SFV2RVR]

Full Hyd Rules!:champagne:

Alexi, who makes the full hydraulic in your Schiada? And how much can I get one for with the power steering pump and everything I need? Pm me the price if you don't wanna post it. Thanks!


Sent from my Schiada built iPhone.

 

[Howardflat]

Call Ron at Imco. He will get you exactly what you need and their shop is located right outside of vegas near lake mead. If its about price you can do the half hydraulic system for a while then upgrade to the full and still use 99% of the parts, just buy the rest of the full hydraulic system and dash assembly you chose. he has all the knowlege on the tight area that your transom is and can tell you exacly what your turning radius will be for your boat. Ron's number at IMCO is 702-294-3030

 

[BoostPower]

We have a few used systems but I recommend new


Sent from My Boostpower Marine Efi Beacon.

 

[C-2]

So I was thinking about selling my partial setup I bought a few years back:

2 Marine Machine Rams
Marine Machine Wingplate for Bravo
Bolts to mount it

I bought it from a guys on OSO for $800; will sell it for the same. These are the big, beefy rams, quality stuff.

 

[Racey]

All of the fully hydraulic systems work via the heart of an EATON Char-lyn steering valve/pump, this is the core of the system, the difference between IMCO, Zeiger, Latham, etc. are the rams/brackets/drive caps. All of them are competitive with each other, all of them are big time over-kill, All of them have proven track records. So for me it just comes down to cost/availability/asthetics.

I personally use IMCO because they are right next door to my shop basically, i can have them make whatever hoses i need, get whatever fittings i need from them etc. And they are good friends of mine. Their bolt on kits work great for IO applications. IMCO also has awesome support if you call up here to the NV office and talk to Ron he will take the time to explain exactly what you need for your application, down to every last piece of hose, fitting, etc. And they will also send you 90% of the kit minus the high pressure hoses, and you can use the low pressure return hose as a method to figure out the exact lengths you need for the high pressure lines, and they will build them to the inch for, and ship those separately making for a super clean and easy install.

 

[28Eliminator]

So I was thinking about selling my partial setup I bought a few years back:

2 Marine Machine Rams
Marine Machine Wingplate for Bravo
Bolts to mount it

I bought it from a guys on OSO for $800; will sell it for the same. These are the big, beefy rams, quality stuff.

Marine Machine isn't in business anymore are they? Not sure if it really matters. What about the wingplate, does it stick up above the top of the Drive, or flush out?

I'm interested.

 

[spectras only]

Here's a picture of my MM wingplate setup for reference, albeit slightly different from C-2's .It bolts up the same heightwise .

Shower installed

 

[DaveC]

The guy I spoke to at IMCO was super helpful, very knowlegable and very accomodating. Great service.

He listened and helped with my DIY project and his advice was very helpful. (even after I bombarded him with 20 questions )

I would recommend.:thumbsup

All of the fully hydraulic systems work via the heart of an EATON Char-lyn steering valve/pump, this is the core of the system, the difference between IMCO, Zeiger, Latham, etc. are the rams/brackets/drive caps. All of them are competitive with each other, all of them are big time over-kill, All of them have proven track records. So for me it just comes down to cost/availability/asthetics.

I personally use IMCO because they are right next door to my shop basically, i can have them make whatever hoses i need, get whatever fittings i need from them etc. And they are good friends of mine. Their bolt on kits work great for IO applications. IMCO also has awesome support if you call up here to the NV office and talk to Ron he will take the time to explain exactly what you need for your application, down to every last piece of hose, fitting, etc. And they will also send you 90% of the kit minus the high pressure hoses, and you can use the low pressure return hose as a method to figure out the exact lengths you need for the high pressure lines, and they will build them to the inch for, and ship those separately making for a super clean and easy install.

 

[C-2]

Marine Machine isn't in business anymore are they? Not sure if it really matters. What about the wingplate, does it stick up above the top of the Drive, or flush out?

I'm interested.

I think Byng is still around, but pretty much all the MM parts you need are there.

I bought it mainly because I didn't think the guy would accept the lowball offer I made since I was unsure if the rams were too big for my boat...which they probably are...I never mounted them.

I think you need the pump, helm and lines to complete the system, they would be the same parts from other manufacturers used to complete the MM system.

 

[28Eliminator]

I think Byng is still around, but pretty much all the MM parts you need are there.

I bought it mainly because I didn't think the guy would accept the lowball offer I made since I was unsure if the rams were too big for my boat...which they probably are...I never mounted them.

I think you need the pump, helm and lines to complete the system, they would be the same parts from other manufacturers used to complete the MM system.

PM coming.