Hydraulic Steering Improvements

[Cole Brewed]

Thank you for the input , noted and will look into it

Would seem the available solutions for helm mounted trim switches is limited. Foot switches might work for flat water, but for choppy, I dunno ? I see that CP Performance sells the Uflex helm mounted paddles, it appears they remain at 3 or 9 or both (Single or dual) as the helm rotates. Not exactly great looking and not cheap either.
Also it's possible they'll only work on the Uflex helms ? I know my current wheel mounted non-corded switches won't work for shit when the wheel gets clocked 90 degrees and my switches end up top and bottom
http://www.ultraflexgroup.com/en/catalogue/paddle-trim/08908e-1/904/paddle-trim.html?lang=2

View attachment 736456 [/QUOT

 

[Cole Brewed]

On the water is not really where you want to learn this at 70 plus miles an hour. It's really pretty simple to see if you have wore out parts in the gimbal, and damned dangerous to run that way. Just my 02 ¢.

Totally agree!!!!

 

[Taboma]

Thank you for the input , noted and will look into it

For the most part I've not experienced any steering concerns with my NH with the cable/dual Imco system. No wander upon acceleration, perhaps a bit during rapid deceleration, but it's easily corrected and feels more like torque change and a bit of bow steer from trim change. At 60 or 70, I could run all the way down the lake "No Hands" without a bit of wander.
I've read of the virtues of full hydraulic, but haven't driven a similar boat with it, so no basis of personal comparison.
One thing I do know, drive trim is a critical component of proper and safe operation with my Cole, that's especially true if you're exploring the upper limits.
My current trim switch is built into the wheel and falls easily under my thumb while holding the wheel and it's always at the 3 o'clock position when running straight.
To date I've been unwilling to sacrifice ease of trim for ease of steering.

 

[02HoWaRd26]

My trim is on the throttle i have the dual handle controls.

 

[Cole Brewed]

CP sells this one View attachment 736305

I was unable to find on their website. I emailed them and here is their response, “This was a prototype wheel being shown at the LA and Miami boat shows and it not available yet. Production may be another 4 to 6 month's before it is available for sale. We do not have any exact pricing at this time.”

 

[02HoWaRd26]

I was unable to find on their website. I emailed them and here is their response, “This was a prototype wheel being shown at the LA and Miami boat shows and it not available yet. Production may be another 4 to 6 month's before it is available for sale. We do not have any exact pricing at this time.”

Wow that sucks, they said they were expecting “450-600$ and should have done soon” at the boat show. That wheel isn’t right for my boat at all but i still had to take the picture as well save it as that wheel is just plain sexy.

 

[Cole Brewed]

Started install, but I’m really sick so a few days off to get better.

 

[spectras only]

i don't have room for full hydraulic because the sliding cabin door would interfere with the pump head and hoses while opening/closing the door. Have the Marine Machine dual rams that keeps the drives firm and steady with hands off the wheel even with some slop in the wheel/cable system. Also, I look at it this way, in case of a burst in any of hydraulic lines [ though it's a very low chance of that can happen if checked periodically ] I still have the cable steering getting home.

 

[Cole Brewed]

Last night was my first night to get back on the steering install after being sick and going to see our college student sons in Tempe. I want to mention that the removal of the old steering control valve was fairly difficult due to the lack of work space to remove very tight bolts and pins with cotter pins. I am not small in the belly and fought it the whole way, but got it, lol. I was able to route and plumb the hydraulic lines from charlynn to drive ram t’s, cooler, and install the filter. I will post pics later but the transom area is very cluttered in the drive area. The boat originally had a fuel injected motor and the transition to the carbureated motor left a lot of unused wiring. Probably will get back on it Wednesday, pull the steering wheel, drill the dash for new helm assembly the mount the new unit. Hope to have test run Sunday.

 

[farmo83]

I really need to get hydraulic steering on mine. I had it all lined up last year and I found out my swim step brackets won't allow any rams to bolt up to the back up. The shop I was dealing with wouldn't mess with fabricating anything. I'm hoping to get some custom brackets made this winter that will allow everything to clear.

 

[02HoWaRd26]

I really need to get hydraulic steering on mine. I had it all lined up last year and I found out my swim step brackets won't allow any rams to bolt up to the back up. The shop I was dealing with wouldn't mess with fabricating anything. I'm hoping to get some custom brackets made this winter that will allow everything to clear.

What boat? Imco sells a new helmet that the rams attach to as well you could go higher lower out or in. My ram is the 6” stroke and is mounted real close to the helmet, as well it’s a single ram as it was ram assist. I spoke to Ron over and over about adding a second ram he said it’s more cosmetic than anything and that it’s unneeded. If i came across a killer deal on a second ram tho i would buy it for the fun of it.

My whole point is the steps and tips can’t be that bad and I’m guessing you were dealing with a lazy shop.

 

[H2O]

Mine had slop up and down and side to side. Gimbal ring fixed it all. Not fun to replace but tightened everything up. Not the bearing but the ring

This is where the slop comes from. Steering pin gets lose and causes the movement

That’s the whole ball of wax right there, for anyone that has slop in their steering (cables and helm are good) and does not have external hydraulic steering.

Just to repeat for any who might reference this thread later...

If you can grab your outdrive and rock it top to bottom, or push the outdrive right and left (say a 1/2” or more) and your tiller arm under the hatch is isn’t moving, then your gimbal ring is worn and needs replacing. (Big $$$ if you go the traditional method of buying a new ring and pulling to engine) The square hole in gimbal ring eventually rounds out as shown in the excellent illustration above, and the pivot pin can rotate in the slot.

Once this happens you’ve got slop no matter how much you tighten down your u-bolt nuts, which should always be kept at 53 ft lbs, per Merc I believe.

If you don’t keep those U bolts tigttened up, the steel pivot pin will wow out the soft aluminum gimbal ring. And even if you do keep your U bolts nuts torqued the u bolt eventually stretches out and you bottom out on the threads.

FYI - Best solution for us DIY’s is the JR Marine fix -
http://www.jrmarine.com/

(No Affiliation, but the owner Ron gave me a great support and instructions when I did my repair)

After the fix my steering was tighter than stock and should last longer too. Ron custom machines a hardened stainless steel pivot pin and provided a U-bolt that will not stretch out like stock.

For us DIYers the JR Marine gimbal fix turns a several thousand dollar job into a well under $1000 job, not including parts for new Bellows and cooling hose, etc which you may want to change will you have everything apart.

 

[ONE-A-DAY]

My boat has hydraulic assist, full hydraulic upgrade is on the list. One thing that bugs me about the assist set up that I have never dealt with before is that at slow speed / idle, the steering is very hard, as if the power steering pump isnt generating enough pressure at idle to make the system work as it should, when the RPM's come up the steering is effortless. Its problematic when you need to make a quick maneuver at the ramp and cant turn the wheel as fast as you would like. Not sure if this is a characteristic of an assist set up or not, boat got picked up today by Barrett and its on the list of things to check out.

 

[farmo83]

My boat has hydraulic assist, full hydraulic upgrade is on the list. One thing that bugs me about the assist set up that I have never dealt with before is that at slow speed / idle, the steering is very hard, as if the power steering pump isnt generating enough pressure at idle to make the system work as it should, when the RPM's come up the steering is effortless. Its problematic when you need to make a quick maneuver at the ramp and cant turn the wheel as fast as you would like. Not sure if this is a characteristic of an assist set up or not, boat got picked up today by Barrett and its on the list of things to check out.

Curious what the diagnoses is, I'm debating between the two.

 

[farmo83]

What boat? Imco sells a new helmet that the rams attach to as well you could go higher lower out or in. My ram is the 6” stroke and is mounted real close to the helmet, as well it’s a single ram as it was ram assist. I spoke to Ron over and over about adding a second ram he said it’s more cosmetic than anything and that it’s unneeded. If i came across a killer deal on a second ram tho i would buy it for the fun of it.

My whole point is the steps and tips can’t be that bad and I’m guessing you were dealing with a lazy shop.

It's a Schiada RT

 

[ONE-A-DAY]

Curious what the diagnoses is, I'm debating between the two.

Valves in the rams are leaking, sending them back to Imco for a rebuild.

 

[Cole Brewed]

Either it wiggles or it dont. Grab the damned thing and see if theres movement up and down, side to side. You said the rams checked out.....

Since the comment above and the video, please note that i was told the control valve is bad. The control valve is now omitted from use entirely. I was also informed the rams are in great condition, though I want to re-build and re-polish anyway.

 

[02HoWaRd26]

My boat has hydraulic assist, full hydraulic upgrade is on the list. One thing that bugs me about the assist set up that I have never dealt with before is that at slow speed / idle, the steering is very hard, as if the power steering pump isnt generating enough pressure at idle to make the system work as it should, when the RPM's come up the steering is effortless. Its problematic when you need to make a quick maneuver at the ramp and cant turn the wheel as fast as you would like. Not sure if this is a characteristic of an assist set up or not, boat got picked up today by Barrett and its on the list of things to check out.

That’s just assist in my experience. The new tilt helm, charlyn, hoses and filter are all you need like i did as well what Danny is doing. Save the headache and just drive up to Boulder and talk to Ron, but bring cash because as he did to me when i went last June, he tossed a number at me that had me ask him to hold my water bottle while i ran to WF for money. It was way cheaper than i expected and was the better part of a day to install myself, but i had never even change a steering cable in a boat prior. I’d assume you run to IMCO with 2,200$ (you’ll come home with plenty of change, but i don’t want to put his number on here) cash, and drop the parts with AJ and he will have it done in less than four hours. You’ll be plenty happy. Ron is awesome

 

[02HoWaRd26]

It's a Schiada RT

That looks like you have a stand off box. If so it may have the tabs inside that you bolt the side brackets to, or you can sell me that box and then you can go get the box with the built in arms for the power steering.

 

[02HoWaRd26]

Since the comment above and the video, please note that i was told the control valve is bad. The control valve is now omitted from use entirely. I was also informed the rams are in great condition, though I want to re-build and re-polish anyway.

I was about to say “FUQ” then read that the control valve was removed. It shouldn't move but a tiny wobble. Last time i was up there i got new delrin bushings for the ram they were like 10$ for the four for my one ram, now mine has ZERO play.

 

[Cole Brewed]

The video was taken while control valve was still in. The control valve is out now. I will be back working on it tomorrow, though I may not have it full w fuid until This weekend.

 

[02HoWaRd26]

Then the fun part....... bleeding it. You got the bleed instructions from them right? You playing in the am or evening tomorrow? Depending on work i can help in the am if you need.

 

[Cole Brewed]

Then the fun part....... bleeding it. You got the bleed instructions from them right? You playing in the am or evening tomorrow? Depending on work i can help in the am if you need.

Peter , I totally appreciate that, however probably won’t bleed system until Saturday. All the upholstery is still out and I am on call so I can’t get too involved until the weekend. I will send a text when I am preparing to bleed the system.

 

[02HoWaRd26]

Peter , I totally appreciate that, however probably won’t bleed system until Saturday. All the upholstery is still out and I am on call so I can’t get too involved until the weekend. I will send a text when I am preparing to bleed the system.

I was t talking just about the bleeding. I should be around Friday of your playing around the garage, hopefully Saturday on the boat...

 

[Cole Brewed]

Thank you, though Friday I can’t work on the boat, I am smoking meat for a friend and my boat is at my neighbors building in town.

 

[Cole Brewed]

Before I’m taking a 3” hole saw to the dash

pretty busy in here

The results. I sweated the initial cut then was committed, led to finish drilling. I hate those frickin things! The hole was perfectly drilled. I used a piece of plywood (generously donated by @jeepdogs dumpster after cleanup from Saturday’s drive thru event) behind the dash to keep the pilot bit for the hole saw lined up , no wobble bs. I can’t figure out why last pic is small ,,, o well

 

[Cole Brewed]

Primed the system today, no wheel yet but even without , steering is so much easier. Also to the the point of the previous side to side drive movement I experienced while the Boat is on trailer with no power, that has stopped with the full hydraulic system. This week I am putting the upholstery back In, get a steering wheel and will do a water test. I will update the results afterwards.
Thank you @jeepdog for your help today.

 

[guest hs]

Your boat was a Night Hawk? Does your boat have a Delta Pad? If it does I’m curious of how much your boat wonders side to side in the no wake zone.

 

[Cole Brewed]

Your boat was a Night Hawk? Does your boat have a Delta Pad? If it does I’m curious of how much your boat wonders side to side in the no wake zone.

Yes it is a Night Hawk, yes delta pad. I will get measurements later. Wondered a little prior to removing cable steering in no wake. I should have a conclusive answer to your question after this weekend. I’m finally starting to get the interior re-installed.

 

[02HoWaRd26]

So...... did you finally find a wheel??

 

[Cole Brewed]

So...... did you finally find a wheel??

I picked up a aluminum 3 spoke wheel , I hate it but just want to get back on the water. You can see it from the backside in this photo. Speedo came yesterday, seats back in today, I will hopefully bring It home so I have it in my own garage , I can finish wiring the rca cables I had to replace, then give her a bath, and shine. Hopefully on the water Saturday maybe Sunday to test the steering. Been way to long!. I am keeping my hopes up for the black wheel!

 

[02HoWaRd26]

View attachment 749850
I picked up a aluminum 3 spoke wheel , I hate it but just want to get back on the water. You can see it from the backside in this photo. Speedo came yesterday, seats back in today, I will hopefully bring It home so I have it in my own garage , I can finish wiring the rca cables I had to replace, then give her a bath, and shine. Hopefully on the water Saturday maybe Sunday to test the steering. Been way to long!. I am keeping my hopes up for the black wheel!

It doesn’t look bad from that angle lol, i still think purple would’ve been titties

 

[Taboma]

It doesn’t look bad from that angle lol, i still think purple would’ve been titties

What did you end up doing with the drive trim control ?

 

[Cole Brewed]

What did you end up doing with the drive trim control ?

I am going to remount to the sacrificial steering wheel until I find a wheel I like. I Will have to pay close attention to the cord so it doesn’t wrap to tight and hinder operation.

You probably offered suggestions, if not I’m definitely open to them

 

[Headless hula]

I am going to remount to the sacrificial steering wheel until I find a wheel I like. I Will have to pay close attention to the cord so it doesn’t wrap to tight and hinder operation.

You probably offered suggestions, if not I’m definitely open to them

A paddle style might be a solution.

They are offered in a single paddle as well.
I sourced this on Amazon.
Search "uflex paddle trim", and you should be able to find it. It clamps to the barrel portion of the helm, immediately behind the steering wheel.



Edit. I see you have the imco steering shaft. Dont think that'll work.

 

[Taboma]

I am going to remount to the sacrificial steering wheel until I find a wheel I like. I Will have to pay close attention to the cord so it doesn’t wrap to tight and hinder operation.

You probably offered suggestions, if not I’m definitely open to them

I'm far from being an expert on trim switches on full hyd steering. What I do know is, the trim is extremely important when peddling my NH at speed. My Cole currently has the switch in the wheel spoke, it's the commutator ring non-corded version and because I have Mech/Hyd combo steering, it's always where I need it --- my right thumb.
Recently there was a pic of a new Nordic with a trim switch on each spoke ( I assume to accommodate the full hyd steering) , non-corded, but the exposed wiring on the back of the wheel switches protruded way out, appeared to be crude, ugly and unfinished. My query to Nordic on how it was to be finished or wires concealed went unanswered.

I see the other choices as --- The SeaStar turn signal looking stalk, the more modern Uflex (CP Performance) paddle shifter design (Hula is using this style) or the TH- Hot Trim foot Trim buttons (I believe RD uses this style on his Schiada). The following pics show dual stations but single is available as well.



SeaStar Pro-Trim

Uflex USA Paddle Triim

TH- Hot Trim

 

[Cole Brewed]

I am bringing my boat home today so I will have more time to look closer at and weigh the options than I have had while it’s sitting in my friends building.

 

[Cole Brewed]

Found this on CP

 

[Luv2gofast]

I love my left foot trim, right foot throttle. I made a brush and slip ring system for my last boat but the foot trim is much cleaner and I have a place to put my left foot. That's the one I have and it works great.

 

[Taboma]

I love my left foot trim, right foot throttle. I made a brush and slip ring system for my last boat but the foot trim is much cleaner and I have a place to put my left foot. That's the one I have and it works great.

Does it allow you to use it as a dead pedal to help keep your ass in the seat in the rough ? I've never had a foot trim, so I'm just curious if it's hard to use under certain water conditions ?

 

[Taboma]

Found this on CP View attachment 750131

That looks awesome and would match my right N-Control foot throttle. I'm hoping it would be easy to use as a dead pedal as well --- appears to only toggle with intentional toe or heel pressure.

 

[Luv2gofast]

Yes it's stiff and you have to push pretty hard to trim. Makes a great dead pedal.

 

[guest hs]

Cordless steering wheel drive and tab trim on my Cole

 

[Cole Brewed]

Ok so it has been awhile coming to get my boat back on the water after starting the hydraulic helm upgrade.

I want to start with saying THANK YOU to ALL the RDP community that assisted and provided input on this journey. All of your comments were taking serious.

Second I must say this upgrade was a great investment in the comfort, stability, and responsiveness of the system. If I ever acquire another boat ( minus a flat or jet) I will have full hydraulic installed. I felt extremely safe at any speed! I didn’t open it up, my wife don’t like that, we topped around 65.

If any body is on the fence about going this route on their boat, my vote is YES, do it!

So I must address the gimbal chat. I took all of the gimbal comment serious. However, I felt that the gimbal was in great shape and decided that I was moving forward with my scenario of staying the course of the hydraulic helm install, and if improvements were not totally obvious, I would replace the gimbal ring, bearing and any other components associated with the steering. To the benefit of my wallet and future 2nd amendment rights purchases, I’m very pleased I will not be touching anything to do with the gimbal in the near future. Doesn’t mean I won’t address if a new issue arises.

I did decided on a trim switch, gunna give the N-Control a shot. I also got great suggestions on another thread about steering wheel adapter, gunna get that and go back to my original steering wheel until the black one is released, @02HoWaRd26, you know the one. I also made a decision on stereo head unit upgrade.

Our run today started at Jack Smith around 11, water plenty high enough to launch, pirates, sandbar, Topock, Needles launch and lagoon, (props to NMR for the recent dredging improvements, docks not all in yet though), up to grass beach, a long float then out of JS around 530. In garage by 630 and now catching up on my CL intake! What an awesome day!

This photo is taken in NMR marina

 

[Taboma]

Cordless steering wheel drive and tab trim on my Cole

The three button setup is what I'd seen on a new Nordic --- however, in the case of the Nordic I'm assuming it wasn't finished off as the wiring on the backside of the steering wheel wasn't at all dressed up.
What does your look like on the backside of the wheel ? Do you find that at least one of the three buttons is easily thumb accessible while running straight at high speed ?

I'm impressed with your top speed number you posted the other day, I'd love to be able to run a Mach, but it gave me "Blow out" fits coming on plane. Since we were using the boat for skiing, I oped for a Bravo as a compromise, but I don't like it on the top end.
I noticed you mentioned the Mach being cupped, perhaps that's helping ?

 

[guest hs]

I’m running a mirage right now not a Mach. When I get home I will send you a pic of back of the wheel. My thumb test nice on the buttons. 2 for trim on the drive 1 for tabs

 

[Taboma]

I’m running a mirage right now not a Mach. When I get home I will send you a pic of back of the wheel. My thumb test nice on the buttons. 2 for trim on the drive 1 for tabs

HA --- I meant Mirage and typed Mach --- sheesh it's Monday Anyway, I never could keep a 3 blade MIRAGE from blowing out unless I really babied it and I had it blow out on tight turns a couple of times. But I much preferred the way it handled at the top end --- Feeling as if I carried the bow nicely, versus the Bravo that tends to keep burying the bow causing me to constantly trim up. I'm not sure it was a Mirage Plus --- but I ran a Mirage on my 425HP powered Superhawk and it ran sweet.

I was afraid with full hydraulic I'd end up with the trim buttons all over the place, not at the predictable 9 and 3 where are while running straight with the semi-hydraulic.
My tab buttons are on the dash, I rarely use mine unless I get a real heavy person on one side. Although I've considered going with longer Dana's for some added stability when it's balancing on the pad.