Hey motor heads...Is the 429 a big block or small block?

[rivermobster]

Caddy used a Ford engine?

Nope. But Caddy also ran a 390 too! LoL

Run if you see one. Nobody makes a rear main seal that will work. The 429 uses a big block Chevy rear main seal. I won't say it will seal properly, but at least you can find one.

Early Caddy engines are big bucks to rebuild....

Greg, if anyone asks you if it's a big or small block, tell em whatever you want. They have no clue whatsoever about engines!

 

[SBMech]

Nope. But Caddy also ran a 390 too! LoL

Run if you see one. Nobody makes a rear main seal that will work. The 429 uses a big block Chevy rear main seal. I won't say it will seal properly, but at least you can find one.

Early Caddy engines are big bucks to rebuild....

Greg, if anyone asks you if it's a big or small block, tell em whatever you want. They have no clue whatsoever about engines!

You don't consider the 472 a Big Block?

 

[rivermobster]

You don't consider the 472 a Big Block?

A 427 LS? Gen V Chevy? A 427 Ford FE?

You need to be a bit more specific! LoL

 

[SBMech]

A 427 LS? Gen V Chevy? A 427 Ford FE?

You need to be a bit more specific! LoL

Cadillac has used mostly proprietary engines with the largest displacement at the time.

472's were used in 68 and 69 RWD Caddies. That is what this conversation is about, considering Cadillacs to all have big blocks or small blocks.

Since the only other big blocks in service at the time from GM were 427 Rat motors and a few experimental 454's I personally consider them in the BB family.

You replied to a post about Cadillac engines.....then ask me for specifics?

 

[liquid addiction]

Okay well it's safe to say if some asks me again I'll say Medium Block. Although I think the "Bigs" have it. I'm not sure a pic would help, it's bone stock and the original matching number motor.

I think I would just say “it’s a Caddy”.

 

[rivermobster]

Cadillac has used mostly proprietary engines with the largest displacement at the time.

472's were used in 68 and 69 RWD Caddies. That is what this conversation is about, considering Cadillacs to all have big blocks or small blocks.

Since the only other big blocks in service at the time from GM were 427 Rat motors and a few experimental 454's I personally consider them in the BB family.

Correct. A Caddy engine is a Caddy engine. Period the end.

I was responding to @cofooter question.

And Greg asking about his 429.

That is all!

 

[rivermobster]

I think I would just say “it’s a Caddy”.

This!

 

[SBMech]

Correct. A Caddy engine is a Caddy engine. Period the end.

I was responding to @cofooter question.

And Greg asking about his 429.

That is all!

Well I can't disagree about that, they are unique and fucked to work on/restore!

 

[rivermobster]

Well I can't disagree about that, they are unique and fucked to work on/restore!

You spelled expensive...

Correctly.

 

[4Waters]

You spelled expensive...

Correctly.

You know what FE stands for right?








Fucking Expensive! LOL

 

[Wheeler]

You know what FE stands for right?








Fucking Expensive! LOL

How IRONic.

 

[rrrr]

You know what FE stands for right?







Fucking Expensive! LOL

Ain't that the truth! I forget exactly what the bearings, lifters, etc. for my 427 FE cost, but it was effing outrageous.

 

[4Waters]

Ain't that the truth! I forget exactly what the bearings, lifters, etc. for my 427 FE cost, but it was effing outrageous.

I've built a couple. They are cool engines.

 

[Wheeler]

I've built a couple. They are cool engines.

I had several and decided not to bring 'em to AZ with me. One was shipped back to Detroit to complete a '69 drag pack car that was missing an engine.

I have one now that I need to go through or put the car on the chopping block.

 

[rrrr]

As I said above, building my FE was great entertainment and expanded my knowledge of engine oiling systems. If you don't restrict flow to the heads, especially in a boat motor running WOT for long periods, the lower end will rise up and smite your wallet again.

 

[Bigbore500r]

I could also go into the Y-block series Ford. Also the chevy 400 was an enlarged 350 that was a pile of crap.

Lots of 9 second street cars beg to differ!

Guys building 383's leave alot of power on the table with that small 350 bore. Just build a 406 and be done with it!
Most of the 400 issues were from guys forgetting to drill steam holes in the heads when swapping a hotter set of heads on

 

[Bigbore500r]

Pretty much.

Small block 400 made into a 406, 410, 417, 0r 434 is a mushroom cloud laying mutherfucker- especially for a boat when you can feed it unlimited cool water. My 406 put out 500hp and 500ft lb - put big blocks on the tracker for decades.
You have a decent SBC 400 block laying around Ill take it.

UD


View attachment 884048

EXACTLY

 

[gottaminute?]

That was the 305 V-6 chevy truck engine. Which was a torquing Mo fo back in it's day

And a 710 inch industrial V12 version was available from GM too.

 

[Sharp Shooter]

Okay well it's safe to say if some asks me again I'll say Medium Block. Although I think the "Bigs" have it. I'm not sure a pic would help, it's bone stock and the original matching number motor.

Just refer all future engine questions to the social forums at RiverDaves place. You’ll never be misled here.

 

[92 cole]

From what I know the 710 was a stationary industrial engine for pump rigs and well pumps not available for otr vehicles.

 

[rrrr]

That was the 305 V-6 chevy truck engine. Which was a torquing Mo fo back in it's day

One of the trucks owned by my Dad's business was a '66 GMC with the V-6, I was twelve when he bought it. Me and my younger brother used to take it out of the yard after hours when Dad wasn't around and hotfoot it around the desert on dirt roads. It went like stink and sounded cool too.

 

[spectras only]

I had the 66 Coupe DeVille with the small block 429 and the 64 Lincoln with the big block 430. The Lincoln was quicker!✌

 

[GRADS]

I had the 66 Coupe DeVille with the small block 429 and the 64 Lincoln with the big block 430. The Lincoln was quicker!✌

Me too!

 

[spectras only]

mines were the opposite, both cars were white. Black old cars look bitchen though.

 

[footer]

Big block and small block designators are used to differentiate the two general engine block architectures that the manufacturers used to make a variety of different displacement engines. Cadillac never had more than one architecture in production at a given point in time, so there was really no big or small. It was simply the Cadillac engine, and not shared with other GM brands. Your 429 series engine was used by Cadillac from 1964 to 1967. The 472 Series engine is totally different, and was used from 1968 until 1984 in displacements ranging from 500 to 368.

I have a 1970 472 series Eldorado engine in my 1968 Sedan Deville, which is now at 513 cubic inches.

Cadillac V8 engine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[coolchange]

As footer said, the way I look at it, if there aren't two engines in production, there's no reason to call it a small or a big block. I think people want to call certain engines big blocks just to embellish the badassness of their motor.lol
Pontiacs. I guess buy some reasoning you'd have to call a 455 a big block. But then you'd be acting a fool if you called your 326 a big block.
On the 400 Ford. They really screwed up by raising the deck height and just stroking it. I always said back in the day if Ford made the 400 the way Chevy did, same deck height, bigger bore, bigger stroke, the street wars would have been entirely different. A 406 ci Ford using off-the-shelf components with a Cleveland head. In a 65 mustang. Crazy.
My brother put a 514 Cadillac in his 77 diesel pickup. Big Pontiac valves, sheet metal f i intake. Towing my boat to the river, ballooned the converter on chirocco summit doing 85. Got lit up by the CHP airplane. This motor is now finding its way into his 76 4 x 4. Cool motors, expensive.
That's my opinion, Outta be yours! Lol

 

[stoker2001]

Not true, the Boss 302 block is most definitely a small block. The original ones are part number D1ZE6015BA and I have built one for a restoration project. You can still buy the replacement blocks through Summit/Jegs etc.

those blocks thru summit/jegs are modern 5.0 fox body wimpy 2 bolt main that spit there guts out with any power upgrades..the new gen Boss block offered thru ford racing is a nice pricy piece with 4 bolt mains.jegs might offer the racing "boss' block also?

 

[92562]

those blocks thru summit/jegs are modern 5.0 fox body wimpy 2 bolt main that spit there guts out with any power upgrades..the new gen Boss block offered thru ford racing is a nice pricy piece with 4 bolt mains.jegs might offer the racing "boss' block also?

I'm pretty sure you can get the Ford racing stuff from Summit or Jegs. I'm actually a Chevy guy but I've built just about everything out there over the years and have a memory for numbers.

 

[GRADS]

And to muck things up even worse ....I owned a 1968 Conv. Pontiac Firebird with the stock 350 in it. Ran in to the same problem.....is it a big block or small block? Some say neither.

 

[rivermobster]

And to muck things up even worse ....I owned a 1968 Conv. Pontiac Firebird with the stock 350 in it. Ran in to the same problem.....is it a big block or small block? Some say neither.

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/1969-pontiac-firebird-h-o

 

[lebel409]

Just to muddy things up more Chevy had the 348-409-427 mystery motor big block...before the "big block Chevy".

 

[coolchange]

Refer to post 76

And to muck things up even worse ....I owned a 1968 Conv. Pontiac Firebird with the stock 350 in it. Ran in to the same problem.....is it a big block or small block? Some say neither.

Just to muck up your muck-up, refer to post 76 paragraph two. And although they called it a 350 it was not. It was 355

 

[Wheeler]

Blah blah blah

 

[ChevelleSB406]

Lots of 9 second street cars beg to differ!

Guys building 383's leave alot of power on the table with that small 350 bore. Just build a 406 and be done with it!
Most of the 400 issues were from guys forgetting to drill steam holes in the heads when swapping a hotter set of heads on

400's were definitely not that hot in stock form, but my chevelle has had 400" based power plants for 20 years now, and naturally aspirated and on pump gas have caused a ton of hurt feelings. When I get a different vehicle to put it in and finally put a couple of kits on it, its really going to live up to its potential. Don't get me wrong, I wish I had started with an LS, but they were only a couple years old at the time, and not what they are today.

The real fun starts when you have to make custom pistons anyway, and you just keep making the rod longer and longer and moving the wrist pin up. 6.2" rod in mine, .040 over, and dished to get the compression to 10:1. Doubt they work for anyone else's application.

PSA - Steamhole your heads, run a thermostat housing restrictor, and put in water jacket restrictors too if you want to be extra careful. Ask me how I know

 

[liquid addiction]

And to muck things up even worse ....I owned a 1968 Conv. Pontiac Firebird with the stock 350 in it. Ran in to the same problem.....is it a big block or small block? Some say neither.

It was a Pontiac.

 

[Bigbore500r]

400's were definitely not that hot in stock form, but my chevelle has had 400" based power plants for 20 years now, and naturally aspirated and on pump gas have caused a ton of hurt feelings. When I get a different vehicle to put it in and finally put a couple of kits on it, its really going to live up to its potential. Don't get me wrong, I wish I had started with an LS, but they were only a couple years old at the time, and not what they are today.

The real fun starts when you have to make custom pistons anyway, and you just keep making the rod longer and longer and moving the wrist pin up. 6.2" rod in mine, .040 over, and dished to get the compression to 10:1. Doubt they work for anyone else's application.

PSA - Steamhole your heads, run a thermostat housing restrictor, and put in water jacket restrictors too if you want to be extra careful. Ask me how I know

I'd imagine your piston pin is well into your ring package with that combo! That's a long rod with a 3.75 stroke

I've built 3 400's over the years. Honestly the most violent one was a cheapo - SCAT budget rotating assembly, stock rod length (5.565") 408 that was 11.25:1 with a 104 LSA solid roller. Ran out of breath by 6500 but it was like a lightswitch, absolutely murdered the tires around town. Had a performer RPM on it, but swapped it for a Victor Jr and it ran way harder. Beat the crap out of it for years and never killed it, ended up selling the motor.

 

[Uncle Dave]

This was my 406 on pump gas.
Idled at 700 RPM in gear through a bravo, 800 out of gear.
Good enough for 90 in my sebring.

Pretty cheap

 

[ChevelleSB406]

I'd imagine your piston pin is well into your ring package with that combo! That's a long rod with a 3.75 stroke

I've built 3 400's over the years. Honestly the most violent one was a cheapo - SCAT budget rotating assembly, stock rod length (5.565") 408 that was 11.25:1 with a 104 LSA solid roller. Ran out of breath by 6500 but it was like a lightswitch, absolutely murdered the tires around town. Had a performer RPM on it, but swapped it for a Victor Jr and it ran way harder. Beat the crap out of it for years and never killed it, ended up selling the motor.

Definitely, I have had about three versions of this motor over 20 years, pin is up in there for sure. I used to brag about the cam in it currently because it was so well mannered around town in regular driving in spite of its size, but these days everything is way more extreme, this setup is 15 years old now. Solid roller, .601 / .625 lift, then a 1.6 rocker on that, and 258/262 duration @ 50. Putting the 4k stall in this car made it so easy to drive around town, but before I geared it or put the stall in it, on the freeway I could hammer down without downshifting and burn through 3rd. Great package, LS stuff makes it so much easier though.

 

[Ziggy]

The irony here is that Grads posted a question that got a bunch of you guys one-upping each other instead of ragging on him.

 

[Bigbore500r]

Definitely, I have had about three versions of this motor over 20 years, pin is up in there for sure. I used to brag about the cam in it currently because it was so well mannered around town in regular driving in spite of its size, but these days everything is way more extreme, this setup is 15 years old now. Solid roller, .601 / .625 lift, then a 1.6 rocker on that, and 258/262 duration @ 50. Putting the 4k stall in this car made it so easy to drive around town, but before I geared it or put the stall in it, on the freeway I could hammer down without downshifting and burn through 3rd. Great package, LS stuff makes it so much easier though.

I've built alot of LS motors but i've never had a SBC motor that hit as hard and nasty as my SBC 408
The LS guys think that nothing was fast before the LS came along, there is alot of shit out there for the SBC and now that stand-alone EFI is cheap and plentiful, and you can run multi-coil ignitions / etc the SBC is still as viable as ever! Just more expensive VS a budget iron LS build

 

[Bigbore500r]

The irony here is that Grads posted a question that got a bunch of you guys one-upping each other instead of ragging on him.

We're not one upping, we are uniting over the love of the 406 lol

 

[Uncle Dave]

We're not one upping, we are uniting over the love of the 406 lol

Uniting in love ..and enlightening those that dont understand this very powerful combo of parts.

I think all in I built that whole engine marinized and turn key for under 20K.

If we want to get back to the big blocks Im really surprised none of you guys pointed out that Big Blocks come with heads utilizing the porcupine style (splayed) valve arrangement and that small blocks (from GM Im not talking about aftermarket stuff) use inline style valves.
When someone say " Big Block" most if not all are referring to the Mark IV big block.



UD

 

[Flying_Lavey]

I've built alot of LS motors but i've never had a SBC motor that hit as hard and nasty as my SBC 408
The LS guys think that nothing was fast before the LS came along, there is alot of shit out there for the SBC and now that stand-alone EFI is cheap and plentiful, and you can run multi-coil ignitions / etc the SBC is still as viable as ever! Just more expensive VS a budget iron LS build

I don't think they made an iron LS. Those would be the LQ truck engines

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk

 

[Bigbore500r]

I don't think they made an iron LS. Those would be the LQ truck engines

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk

I meant “LS” architecture shared between 97-up GM V8 engines.
LQ would be a reference to LQ4 and LQ9 6.0’s. But there’s a plethora of other designations that are iron block / aluminum head In the lineup

 

[rivermobster]

I meant “LS” architecture shared between 97-up GM V8 engines.
LQ would be a reference to LQ4 and LQ9 6.0’s. But there’s a plethora of other designations that are iron block / aluminum head In the lineup

Should I break out my LS chart I made?

LoL

 

[squeezer]

Back to the original question... Big vs Small block is impossible to call on displacement as there are small big blocks and big small blocks in differing applications. I figured bore spacing would be a good metric and made a call to Google.

 

[rivermobster]

I don't think they made an iron LS. Those would be the LQ truck engines

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk

I'm not going to give you the entire spread sheet I made, but here is a partial list of LS engine codes. I quit keeping track a few years ago. As with anything GM, it was way too much of a pain in the ass! There were 39 different LS engines at the time I made this chart. God only knows how many different designations there are now.

Here's a hint though, they are in correct order of displacement.

Edit: I just checked the file date, I last updated this in 2016. I started on it in 2014.

LY2

LR4

L20

LM7

L59

LM4

L33

LS4

LY5

LH6

LMG

LC9

LH8

LH9

LMF

L83

LS1-F

LS1-Y

LS6

LQ4

LQ9

L76

LY6

L96

LFA

LZ1

L77

LS2

L92

L94

L99

LS3

LSA

LS9

L86

LT1

LT4

LS7

 

[spectra3279]

Just to muddy things up more Chevy had the 348-409-427 mystery motor big block...before the "big block Chevy".

The 348 and the 409 were a W block. No small or big. Just a W motor.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

[spectras only]

My friend built a 406 for his Checkmate. I ran that sucker at the Harrison Lake poker run WOT @6000. Boat is nearly 28 feet, and that small block pushed it to 82 mph, GPS. Listen to the clip

He also rebuilt the S/C engines for his 34 Hallett he bought from Cali

 

[ChevelleSB406]

I've built alot of LS motors but i've never had a SBC motor that hit as hard and nasty as my SBC 408
The LS guys think that nothing was fast before the LS came along, there is alot of shit out there for the SBC and now that stand-alone EFI is cheap and plentiful, and you can run multi-coil ignitions / etc the SBC is still as viable as ever! Just more expensive VS a budget iron LS build

Tons of motors sound mean at idle, but a big block chevy is certainly a bad ass sound as it goes down the track. My 406 at 7k through an X Pipe in the late 90's was unique in its own way though. Once I go through the rest of the car again, I would love to finally give this engine the love a 24 year old couldn't afford. AFR's, maybe vacuum pump (still need to research for street application), and see what its final number would be. I have all the parts in this architecture so might as well run it, but if it all grenades one day, I dunno if I would start fresh. Big block, LS, probably something else. Single turbo LS sounds fun, or pro charged.