Hey Gearheads...

[530RL]

Joe,

Why do people put on a throttle body FI system without using one that encompasses ignition also?

I get going to electronic for both fuel and spark, but why just fuel. Seems half-assed.

The reason I ask is I thought about putting it on my old CJ5, and the Holley sales rep basically said don‘t waste your money unless you are encompassing both. Just stick with the carb.

 

[SBMech]

I'm guessing you're talking about mechanical fuel injection here? Same shit I worked on when I worked for Saab. Turbo charged mechanical injection, with an O2 sensor for feedback. Mainly there to keep the converter alive! LoL

It basically only functioned at idle. The rest of the fuel flow spectrum was metered by an air box. Air flowing through it would move a mechanical arm. That arm was attached to a fuel metering block, that controlled the fuel flow to the mechanical injectors. Those injectors plugged up All the time, so they had to be regularly serviced.

Dinasour stuff by today's standards. I think I might still have the books somewhere.

I've never worked on a Hilborne system...

I'd guess @DaveH or @Racey know about those systems?

He's talking about D-Jet, and L-Jet, K-Jet was pure mechanical injection, then K-Jet Lambda that had oxygen sensor trim control (your SAAB example), as well as the early ME mechanical injection on the Gullwings/SL's/3.5's that had a diesel type pump. KE is the electronic version of K-Jet with the electro-hydraulic actuator that everyone loved to blame, but was rarely the fault lol. L-Jet is the electronic system that used a density device like a spring door air flow meter.

The mechanical ME type is what Hilborn systems are based and modified off of.

 

[Bigbore500r]

Joe,

Why do people put on a throttle body FI system without using one that encompasses ignition also?

I get going to electronic for both fuel and spark, but why just fuel. Seems half-assed.

The reason I ask is I thought about putting it on my old CJ5, and the Holley sales rep basically said don‘t waste your money unless you are encompassing both. Just stick with the carb.

It's a distributor equipped motor, so no matter what you're gonna retain a distributor unless your spending $$ and going crank trigger with individual coils. Some of the EFI modules have the capability to control the timing with a corresponding distributor, and that is bitchin, but honestly a properly working distributor with functioning vacuum advance and a proper curve works pretty well. You can swap one of the self-tuning EFI setups on for under $1000 and they run like champ. It's all whats in your budget.

 

[coolchange]

Joe,

Why do people put on a throttle body FI system without using one that encompasses ignition also?

I get going to electronic for both fuel and spark, but why just fuel. Seems half-assed.

The reason I ask is I thought about putting it on my old CJ5, and the Holley sales rep basically said don‘t waste your money unless you are encompassing both. Just stick with the carb.

The advantage on your CJ is inclines. Flooding over, loading up.

 

[rivermobster]

He's talking about D-Jet, and L-Jet, K-Jet was pure mechanical injection, then K-Jet Lambda that had oxygen sensor trim control (your SAAB example), as well as the early ME mechanical injection on the Gullwings/SL's/3.5's that had a diesel type pump. KE is the electronic version of K-Jet with the electro-hydraulic actuator that everyone loved to blame, but was rarely the fault lol. L-Jet is the electronic system that used a density device like a spring door air flow meter.

The mechanical ME type is what Hilborn systems are based and modified off of.

Jezuz do you still work on that shit?? I forget all of that bs! LoL

 

[Dana757]

You guys are good...

It is a FiTech throttle body system...

It does have its own built in fuel pressure regulator...

Some fucking moron decided it needed an additional regulator!?! OMFG. Just when you think you've seen everything! LoL

It also has all the wrong size fuel lines. It's a 383 and FiTech specifies 3/8 ID fuel lines for their 600HP kit. These are Maybe a 1/4 ID fuel lines.

Maybe they should have read the instructions that came with the kit??

Ho Lee Fuk

Customer also said it falls flat when you nail the gas. Basic set up in the FiTech computer was set for a 350, not a 383.

Pings like a bitch and kicks back when trying to start it.

They sold this guy a new distributor too...

Unreal.

Those fuel lines look like -6AN PTFE lines to me. The hose is 5/16" ID but all -6 fittings only have a 0.295" ID. So even if you use a -6 Push lock hose that does have 3/8 ID you're still restricted by the fittings. I run -6 PTFE hose and fittings on my Enderle injector but I'm sure it has heeps more fuel pressure.

 

[King P.V.]

What's wrong with this picture??

View attachment 852940

Pressure regulator and stainless fuel lines intertwined with coil/plug wires. Just a little arcing potential. What coild go wrong???

 

[rivermobster]

Joe,

Why do people put on a throttle body FI system without using one that encompasses ignition also?

I get going to electronic for both fuel and spark, but why just fuel. Seems half-assed.

The reason I ask is I thought about putting it on my old CJ5, and the Holley sales rep basically said don‘t waste your money unless you are encompassing both. Just stick with the carb.

Jerry covered the answer pretty well...

What rep was that? Wasn't August was it?

A well designed ignition system (distributor) will do the job quite well on a regular ol engine. No need to encompass ignition control.

With that being said...

Quite a few system Now Do encompass ignition control. Problem is, now you need a guy that Knows how to tune em!

@bonesfab has the Holly systems down pat.

I've installed a bunch of FAST throttle body systems. The ignition system is different every time! Just depends on the customers budget.

 

[rivermobster]

Those fuel lines look like -6AN PTFE lines to me. The hose is 5/16" ID but all -6 fittings only have a 0.295" ID. So even if you use a -6 Push lock hose that does have 3/8 ID you're still restricted by the fittings. I run -6 PTFE hose and fittings on my Enderle injector but I'm sure it has heeps more fuel pressure.

I'm going to replace everything but the return line. Customer is low on cash. He just dropped over 5k with us for a 4 link air bag system on his truck!

 

[DaveH]

when i looked at the pic what i thought about is not all the things wrong that you could see.......but instead now wonder how many other problems there are you AREN'T seeing or discovered yet elsewhere.......

since this conversation has turned to the merits of modern EFI I'll throw my 2 cents in.

these self leaning systems have NO PLACE in any serious engine you put together. self learning is nothing more then an air/fuel ratio table and placing blind faith in the 02 sensor for the computer to try and maintaining that desired ratio.

the problem is......your 02 reading is not always accurate. exhasut leaks, failed sensors, oversized injectors,big lumpy cams, and all sorts of other things cause the 02 (and the MAP sensor for that matter) to be wildly inaccurate to the actual running conditions of the engine and the computer isnt smart enough to understand this. There is no substitue for a gold old fashioned dyno session and even then the dyno is not the end all be all. still takes additional real world road testing after that.

the ECU companies have done a great disservice to the aftermarket world by selling these cheap half assed systems....but hey they want to make money and some sucker will buy them. i laugh at people that will spend huge sums of money on extravgent parts for a motor only to then skimp out on the electronics and wiring and then blame the computer because it runs poorly.

 

[rivermobster]

when i looked at the pic what i thought about is not all the things wrong that you could see.......but instead now wonder how many other problems there are you AREN'T seeing or discovered yet elsewhere.......

since this conversation has turned to the merits of modern EFI I'll throw my 2 cents in.

these self leaning systems have NO PLACE in any serious engine you put together. self learning is nothing more then an air/fuel ratio table and placing blind faith in the 02 sensor for the computer to try and maintaining that desired ratio.

the problem is......your 02 reading is not always accurate. exhasut leaks, failed sensors, oversized injectors,big lumpy cams, and all sorts of other things cause the 02 (and the MAP sensor for that matter) to be wildly inaccurate to the actual running conditions of the engine and the computer isnt smart enough to understand this. There is no substitue for a gold old fashioned dyno session and even then the dyno is not the end all be all. still takes additional real world road testing after that.

the ECU companies have done a great disservice to the aftermarket world by selling these cheap half assed systems....but hey they want to make money and some sucker will buy them. i laugh at people that will spend huge sums of money on extravgent parts for a motor only to then skimp out on the electronics and wiring and then blame the computer because it runs poorly.

I knew you were gonna throw down with all that, you never disappoint!!! lol

Now can you please answer the question about the Hilborn system, and what kinna injectors they use? Thanks.

 

[SBMech]

Jezuz do you still work on that shit?? I forget all of that bs! LoL

Someone has to lol...I have a Bosch Mastertech as well as an ASE. Bosch school was pretty fun!

 

[rivermobster]

Someone has to lol...I have a Bosch Mastertech as well as an ASE. Bosch school was pretty fun!

Better you than me! LoL

I let all that shit expire ages ago. Including my smog licence. Used to be pretty profitable being the only guy in the dealership with a smog licence!

 

[rivermobster]

And now for the pics at 11...

What's wrong with these two pics?!?

 

[JayBreww]

Angeled up?
Fuel pickup should be at the rear of the tank?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DaveH]

I knew you were gonna throw down with all that, you never disappoint!!! lol

Now can you please answer the question about the Hilborn system, and what kinna injectors they use? Thanks.

they dont.

constant flow mechanical systems use "nozzles" or basically a device that contains the same thing as a carb jet. fuel flow is controlled by a combination of increasing fuel pressure and nozzle/jet size.

 

[530RL]

It's a distributor equipped motor, so no matter what you're gonna retain a distributor unless your spending $$ and going crank trigger with individual coils. Some of the EFI modules have the capability to control the timing with a corresponding distributor, and that is bitchin, but honestly a properly working distributor with functioning vacuum advance and a proper curve works pretty well. You can swap one of the self-tuning EFI setups on for under $1000 and they run like champ. It's all whats in your budget.

Got it,

I was led to believe that a Holley HyperSpark was in essence a crank trigger with the ability to create a digital timing map over the entire RPM range even though it does not use individual coils. Compared to an HEI or similar that is limited with advance in a linear fashion.

That was at least the reasoning of the Holley salesman/engineer who steered me away from TBI alone?

 

[DaveH]

And now for the pics at 11...

What's wrong with these two pics?!?

View attachment 853075 View attachment 853076

sensor is clocked too low. For those that dont do efi for a living, you want the sensor installed between 10-2 O'clock. the reason being to minimise condensation forming on the sensor which will rapidly kill the sensor. Good EFI systems have a delay and do not power up the sensor heater circuit to give the engine time to warm up and despell any condesation before heating the sensor element that runs at 800'C. it si for this reason 02 sensors used in boats with water in the exhaust needs to be done with great care to ensure the sensor nevers sees water. you will notice merc doesnt use them.

 

[DaveH]

Got it,

I was led to believe that a Holley HyperSpark was in essence a crank trigger with the ability to create a digital timing map over the entire RPM range even though it does not use individual coils. Compared to an HEI or similar that is limited with advance in a linear fashion.

That was at least the reasoning of the Holley salesman/engineer who steered me away from TBI alone?

yes you can have a 3d electronic spark map that still utilizes a distributor. been done for a long time that way. you still have spark scatter issues, tune up headaches with a cap and rotor as opposed to individual coils. the electronic limit to the advance curve with a distributor is often dictated by the diameter of the cap and size/spacing of the posts.

 

[liquid addiction]

That #8 plug wire looks a little short in the first picture. I hate when that happens

 

[Bigbore500r]

Got it,

I was led to believe that a Holley HyperSpark was in essence a crank trigger with the ability to create a digital timing map over the entire RPM range even though it does not use individual coils. Compared to an HEI or similar that is limited with advance in a linear fashion.

That was at least the reasoning of the Holley salesman/engineer who steered me away from TBI alone?

The new modules paired with a distributor are able to do that. It would be nice to have that integrated into the EFI for single-interface tuning, but you can do it with a stand alone distributor / module setup and a "efi only" injection setup. It's all price point, skys the limit.

 

[DaveH]

The new modules paired with a distributor are able to do that. It would be nice to have that integrated into the EFI for single-interface tuning, but you can do it with a stand alone distributor / module setup and a "efi only" injection setup. It's all price point, skys the limit.

all of this and yet today good modern EFI systems are less expensive then ever. Motec now offers an ECU that will deliver 8 channel fuel and spark (full sequential) for $1700 retail. never thought i would live to see that.

 

[rivermobster]

all of this and yet today good modern EFI systems are less expensive then ever. Motec now offers an ECU that will deliver 8 channel fuel and spark (full sequential) for $1700 retail. never thought i would live to see that.

Everything is coming down in price...

These POS FiTech systems (that I would NEVER install), are in the 800.00 range. FAST is now down to 900.00 and even Holly has a shit load of different throttle body systems that are less than 2k. I never thought I'd see Holly do that!!!

Just had to redo a Motec on a sand rail. Super simple and ran perfect.

 

[Willie B]

I'm guessing you're talking about mechanical fuel injection here? Same shit I worked on when I worked for Saab. Turbo charged mechanical injection, with an O2 sensor for feedback. Mainly there to keep the converter alive! LoL

It basically only functioned at idle. The rest of the fuel flow spectrum was metered by an air box. Air flowing through it would move a mechanical arm. That arm was attached to a fuel metering block, that controlled the fuel flow to the mechanical injectors. Those injectors plugged up All the time, so they had to be regularly serviced.

Dinasour stuff by today's standards. I think I might still have the books somewhere.

I've never worked on a Hilborne system...

I'd guess @DaveH or [ee USER=9]@Racey[/USER] know about those sh systems?

..The Bosch injectors for the 3.5 and 4.5 Mercedes were fired electronically and had plastic screens that could clog up... The 6.3 Mercedes was mechanical injection...
..

 

[jb600]

Shouldn’t the fuel line come down from the top of the tank?
Also the anti sway bar looks fucked up.

Edit. Shouldn’t the sway bar drop when it’s on the hoist?
This is fun mobster. Keep it up.

 

[rivermobster]

Shouldn’t the fuel line come down from the top of the tank?
Also the anti sway bar looks fucked up.

It theoretically can come from anywhere, as long as the tank is baffled correctly for whatever position the line exits...

In this case, this tank is not baffled at all, so the fuel will slosh to the back of the tank, leaving this outlet port exposed to air.

My customers First complaint was: the engine stalls every time you floor it, then comes back when you let off the gas. Shocker eh??

 

[jb600]

It theoretically can come from anywhere, as long as the tank is baffled correctly for whatever position the line exits...

In this case, this tank is not baffled at all, so the fuel will slosh to the back of the tank, leaving this outlet port exposed to air.

My customers First complaint was: the engine stalls every time you floor it, then comes back when you let off the gas. Shocker eh??

Not shocking at all now that you explain the baffle part of it.

 

[37 boat]

all of this and yet today good modern EFI systems are less expensive then ever. Motec now offers an ECU that will deliver 8 channel fuel and spark (full sequential) for $1700 retail. never thought i would live to see that.

This is timely info for me as I am shopping components for an I.R. (eight stack) efi for my Pantera. How does the Motec compare with the Holley H.P. ?

 

[DaveH]

This is timely info for me as I am shopping components for an I.R. (eight stack) efi for my Pantera. How does the Motec compare with the Holley H.P. ?

there is no comparison. 8 stack setups are the most difficult to tune for a NA motor. the prime difference between Motec and any of the lower end systems is the software. Sure, Motec is more complicated....because it allows access to far more tuning parameters that you will need to get an 8 stack to idle correctly, accelerate smooth and no hesitations.

tuning a simple LS single throttle body....you dont necessarily need the sophistaiction of a Motec ECU

 

[Wicky]

You guys are good...

It is a FiTech throttle body system...

It does have its own built in fuel pressure regulator...

Some fucking moron decided it needed an additional regulator!?! OMFG. Just when you think you've seen everything! LoL

It also has all the wrong size fuel lines. It's a 383 and FiTech specifies 3/8 ID fuel lines for their 600HP kit. These are Maybe a 1/4 ID fuel lines.

Maybe they should have read the instructions that came with the kit??

Ho Lee Fuk

Customer also said it falls flat when you nail the gas. Basic set up in the FiTech computer was set for a 350, not a 383.

Pings like a bitch and kicks back when trying to start it.

They sold this guy a new distributor too...

Unreal.

The distributor is in the wrong place....said the Ford fan!!!

 

[Wheeler]

This is timely info for me as I am shopping components for an I.R. (eight stack) efi for my Pantera. How does the Motec compare with the Holley H.P. ?

ShaneT worked at Motec. He might be able to help you.

http://motorsportcontrol.com/

 

[37 boat]

there is no comparison. 8 stack setups are the most difficult to tune for a NA motor. the prime difference between Motec and any of the lower end systems is the software. Sure, Motec is more complicated....because it allows access to far more tuning parameters that you will need to get an 8 stack to idle correctly, accelerate smooth and no hesitations.

tuning a simple LS single throttle body....you dont necessarily need the sophistaiction of a Motec ECU

Thank you, Holley has a pretty informative forum that I have been lurking on, does Motec have anything similar? I am a little concerned with tuning this setup but I decided long ago I wanted 8 stack and 180 headers (for the bitchen aspect lol).

 

[DaveH]

Thank you, Holley has a pretty informative forum that I have been lurking on, does Motec have anything similar? I am a little concerned with tuning this setup but I decided long ago I wanted 8 stack and 180 headers (for the bitchen aspect lol).

8 stacks work great if you have the ability to tune it.

Motec publishes training webinars hosted on youtube that have tons of information. i have setup many EFI stack setups with Motec.

 

[37 boat]

8 stacks work great if you have the ability to tune it.

Motec publishes training webinars hosted on youtube that have tons of information. i have setup many EFI stack setups with Motec.

Cool...how bout wiring, are there pre configured harnesses available or is it roll your own? In my situation it's probably better to do my own anyways as everything on my car is a one off. Are there base tunes available to download ? I have been reading a bunch of stuff but I have a lot to learn. I'm sure I will be able to get it started but will need to hire someone to get it dialed in.

 

[Wheeler]

Not much of a video but if you search youtube and facebook you might find some info. that could be of help.

"Pump gas dyno pull of Boss 302 Mustang engine with IR intake manifold on Twins Turbo Motorsports Dyno. the engine features a MoTeC M800 Engine Management System calibrated by MoTec Tuner Shane Tecklenburg (Tuned By Shane T) makes 372 hp to rear tires on this early pull using fully Variable intake and exhaust camshaft phasing."

Cool...how bout wiring, are there pre configured harnesses available or is it roll your own? In my situation it's probably better to do my own anyways as everything on my car is a one off. Are there base tunes available to download ? I have been reading a bunch of stuff but I have a lot to learn. I'm sure I will be able to get it started but will need to hire someone to get it dialed in.

@parker ed

 

[Bigbore500r]

Not much of a video but if you search youtube and facebook you might find some info. that could be of help.

"Pump gas dyno pull of Boss 302 Mustang engine with IR intake manifold on Twins Turbo Motorsports Dyno. the engine features a MoTeC M800 Engine Management System calibrated by MoTec Tuner Shane Tecklenburg (Tuned By Shane T) makes 372 hp to rear tires on this early pull using fully Variable intake and exhaust camshaft phasing."

@parker ed

That's alot of junk for 372hp
Looks cool though

 

[37 boat]

Not much of a video but if you search youtube and facebook you might find some info. that could be of help.

"Pump gas dyno pull of Boss 302 Mustang engine with IR intake manifold on Twins Turbo Motorsports Dyno. the engine features a MoTeC M800 Engine Management System calibrated by MoTec Tuner Shane Tecklenburg (Tuned By Shane T) makes 372 hp to rear tires on this early pull using fully Variable intake and exhaust camshaft phasing."

@parker ed

That's alot of junk for 372hp
Looks cool though

lol...I'd have to agree 372hp isn't much to brag about these days. My Cleveland dyno'd at 490 with a 750 holley.

 

[Wheeler]

That's alot of junk for 372hp
Looks cool though

Especially when you put it next to this 4 banger.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=270950473772222

 

[DaveH]

Cool...how bout wiring, are there pre configured harnesses available or is it roll your own? In my situation it's probably better to do my own anyways as everything on my car is a one off. Are there base tunes available to download ? I have been reading a bunch of stuff but I have a lot to learn. I'm sure I will be able to get it started but will need to hire someone to get it dialed in.

Motec doesnt sell any pre-made harnesses. they do however offer a very nice un-terminated harness (10' length, raw) that is made from high quality M22759 MS aircraft wire (tefzel) with the ECU connector already installed. you trim it to length, put your preferred covering on, and terminate to your desired sensors.

i am a Motec certified dealer, maybe PM me if you would like more info.

i have base tunes to get you up and going.

 

[37 boat]

Motec doesnt sell any pre-made harnesses. they do however offer a very nice un-terminated harness (10' length, raw) that is made from high quality M22759 MS aircraft wire (tefzel) with the ECU connector already installed. you trim it to length, put your preferred covering on, and terminate to your desired sensors.

i am a Motec certified dealer, maybe PM me if you would like more info.

i have base tunes to get you up and going.

Thank you I will definitely be in touch.

 

[jones performance]

its an fitech.. thats the issue lol