Havasu: Bodycam Shows Police Fatally Shoot Man Armed With Knife

[oldschool]

I guess they should have sent this guy in.

 

[t&y]

Each department is different in regards to tools or resources at the ready in the field. Sounds like the taser was not affective and that could be due to a lack of training (shooting at a blanket), prongs didn't hit the target, or poor aim. You can't go into that situation expecting that a taser is going to solve the problem becuase a lot of times they do not. We also use a batton launcher that is non leathal within 3 feet. It would have knocked the shit out of that kid and likely solved the situation... But there are no guarantees in matters like the above.

Fact of the matter is when facing a guy with a knife in a situation like that lethal force is a well established and legally excepted option. Anybody saying they'd try to disarm a guy high as fuck, mentally disabled, or just really pissed off, who is armed with a knife is asking for serious injury or death. That is not the job or expectation of police. We do not have to injured, stabbed, or shot at prior to using deadly force. Yeah it sucks to hear that but it's the law and has been upheld time and time again.

I feel sorry for the family of that kid as well as the officers involved. I can only imagine the guilt (regardless of legalities) that will be felt from here on over this incident.

 

[rivrrts429]

Like I said, I get all of that. Really I do.

But there are a lot of options that would have ended without him being shot. To me, what I see there is a failure to consider those options.
Hell they could have just waited him out. If he then charges down the hallway with his knife then it leaves them little choice.
The cops are in control at the point we start watching, the dude is going nowhere, they have control of the egress.
One thing that people who are "high" all have in common is that at some point they come down. My opinion from what I see is that at the time of the shooting he is out of his mind...regardless of the substance...and like I said earlier likely doesn't even know if what is happening is real.

I'm not proud of it, and it seems like an entirely different lifetime, but I've been that way before. I've heard those same voices outside the door, but in my case they weren't real, I was imagining them. But you don't know it then...it is truly a nightmare.
Charging the room is walking into a catastrophe, as is quite apparent.

If this is how we are going to judge and jury addicts that "fall out" then we are no better than what is happening in the Philippines right now, where the President has called on the populace to assassinate addicts and dealers.
Is the time to explore other options like waiting him out really worth more than a human life?

You have read my posts for a long time. You know that I would not say these things if I really didn't think it, and that I am pro-cop almost all of the time.

You're a level headed guy which caught me by surprise with your earlier post.

I always go into these scenarios trying to see it from both perspectives. I'd have to be completely out of my mind to be in the suspects scenario which makes it easier to understand the cops actions.

The kid is a stranger to them. No different than if we walked into a room in our own home and realized someone is in our room under a blanket. The difference is that the cops can't leave or runaway like we could. If I had a taser and a gun at my disposal I'd absolutely use the gun in this situation. The cops actually used the taser first. Doesn't matter why it didn't work the important thing is that it didn't. Once plan A fails the perp either needs to give up or you resort to plan B. Unfortunately it was the latter.

I can understand where you're coming from but when the entire scenario lasts a split second these guys choose to go home to their families. I'm sure they will live with this forever and feel terrible but given the circumstances I think it was pretty rational.

 

[was thatguy]

Utter nonsense. They were sent there twice, due to his violent behavior. It was beyond the ability of family members to control him. He was told to come out and show his hands. He refused. The cops see a knife but don't see or know, what other weapons he may have concealed under the blanket. The tazer is ineffective with the blanket in play. Think he can't shoot through a blanket? Nobody forced him into a response. He chose it. The cops don't have to get carved up first before they take steps to protect themselves. The biggest problem in nearly all police confrontations is the commonly held belief, that you have no duty or obligation to comply with the police. When you don't comply, things get ratcheted up. When you comply, you live to see another day. Period. From a guy who's been there. And more than once.

I understand completely.

My point is that he is going nowhere, why go in and force the issue? Why not treat it like a standoff?

I'm with you guys. No way in hell I could ever do your job. I hold MOST cops in the highest regard.
But I've been that guy in the room (see my screen name), minus the assaults, and now I am NOT that guy.

You have much experience as a cop, as you stated. Can you honestly tell this civilian that the ONLY option was the one we see in the video?

 

[spectra3279]

It looked to me like they had riot sheilds. The guy could have been taken out with a few hits from the riot shield. And all would have been safe.

But in the heat of it, they may not have thought of it.

Also, if your going in with riot shields, I don't think your in the right mind to de-escalate anything. Your already determined to bust somebody up.

 

[boatnam2]

Never get to hear the whole story so no second guessing on the outcome, but i will say this, i hope you have exhausted all your cards before bringing in the cops to squash it, they are not there to baby sit.

 

[spectra3279]

Never get to hear the whole story so no second guessing on the outcome, but i will say this, i hope you have exhausted all your cards before bringing in the cops to squash it, they are not there to baby sit.

They are there to clean up the mess.

 

[Tank0088]

It's funny that this wasn't on the news all over the U.S or people aren't protesting. Oh wait I know why...

 

[Abc123]

It's funny that this wasn't on the news all over the U.S or people aren't protesting. Oh wait I know why...

Why?

 

[Dettom]

I understand completely.

My point is that he is going nowhere, why go in and force the issue? Why not treat it like a standoff?

I'm with you guys. No way in hell I could ever do your job. I hold MOST cops in the highest regard.
But I've been that guy in the room (see my screen name), minus the assaults, and now I am NOT that guy.

You have much experience as a cop, as you stated. Can you honestly tell this civilian that the ONLY option was the one we see in the video?

There's a lot of reasons it might not have been treated as a standoff. One, is when you do that, you are compelled by policy to automatically bring in a bunch of people ie; SWAT, Hostage Negotiators, admin, the media etc. Two, now you have to deploy whatever limited patrol resources you have to cover the perimeter. It now becomes circus. Based on the circumstances as I saw them, they had no other viable choice given the totality of the situation.
I would tell you though, if you want a first hand account of why they did what they did, you should read the County Attorney's opinion of why the officers acted reasonable and why they would not be charged. That will list a point by point account of what happened. It ain't an easy decision for the cops and I'm sure they would have preferred a different outcome, but seconds is all they had once he advanced on them.

 

[Tank0088]

Why?

Because there is nothing to protest. We understand why it happened and we can see what happened, just like in other Officer involved shootings.

 

[oldschool]

Why?

Because it won't get ratings.

 

[Dettom]

It looked to me like they had riot sheilds. The guy could have been taken out with a few hits from the riot shield. And all would have been safe.

But in the heat of it, they may not have thought of it.

Also, if your going in with riot shields, I don't think your in the right mind to de-escalate anything. Your already determined to bust somebody up.

Riot shields are not considered a defensive weapon. Cops are not trained to use them as such. There is no policy governing the use of a riot shield as a weapon. They do have other tools at their disposal. Batons, Tazers, pepper spray. Those are considered compliance aids. They are non-lethal weapons. The introduction of a deadly weapon (knife) brings into play the officer's only deadly weapon. Again, compliance is the real issue which no one seems to remember.
Your last statement, about going in to bust somebody up if you go in with a riot shield, and how that shows the officer's true intentions is beyond my ability to address intelligently.

 

[spectra3279]

Riot shields are not considered a defensive weapon. Cops are not trained to use them as such. There is no policy governing the use of a riot shield as a weapon. They do have other tools at their disposal. Batons, Tazers, pepper spray. Those are considered compliance aids. They are non-lethal weapons. The introduction of a deadly weapon (knife) brings into play the officer's only deadly weapon. Again, compliance is the real issue which no one seems to remember.
Your last statement, about going in to bust somebody up if you go in with a riot shield, and how that shows the officer's true intentions is beyond my ability to address intelligently.

Not doubting you. But have you seen any of the prison shows on tv. They sure as hell do use them as defensive and assault weapons.

 

[DLow]

Not doubting you. But have you seen any of the prison shows on tv. They sure as hell do use them as defensive and assault weapons.

Do those prison shows have any officer or DOC personnel have a firearm?

 

[Ballyhoo]

If he is "under a blanket", how is he a threat at that moment?

When they shoot him he is not under a blanket.
Those cops escalated the encounter in this instance. They forced the situation.

I am not a cop, I don't pretend to know their job, but that dude was killed before he even got out of bed...a bed he was laying in with the door shut.
Without a doubt he needed arrested and detained, but from what I see on the video they went in, forced a dude tweeked out of his mind into a response, then killed him.


It bothers me a great deal to second guess these officers, it's something new for me, but that dude should not be dead.

Given the known circumstances, the guy is a definite threat while under the blanket. Here some info regarding the laws of arrest in California. I am sure that AZ is the same or very similar as most states mirror case law and federal law. Hope this helps understanding why the cops went in that room.

835. An arrest is made by an actual restraint of the person, or by
submission to the custody of an officer. The person arrested may be
subjected to such restraint as is reasonable for his arrest and
detention.


835a. Any peace officer who has reasonable cause to believe that
the person to be arrested has committed a public offense may use
reasonable force to effect the arrest, to prevent escape or to
overcome resistance.
A peace officer who makes or attempts to make an arrest need not
retreat or desist from his efforts by reason of the resistance or
threatened resistance of the person being arrested; nor shall such
officer be deemed an aggressor or lose his right to self-defense by
the use of reasonable force to effect the arrest or to prevent escape
or to overcome resistance.

 

[spectra3279]

Do those prison shows have any officer or DOC personnel have a firearm?

Don't know. But they know how to use a riot shield

 

[Dettom]

Don't know. But they know how to use a riot shield

Prisons are highly controlled environments and prison guards are trained very differently. Also, prison guards are not issued sidearms. Comparing of apples and oranges is best left to produce managers.

 

[Ballyhoo]

I understand completely.

My point is that he is going nowhere, why go in and force the issue? Why not treat it like a standoff?

I'm with you guys. No way in hell I could ever do your job. I hold MOST cops in the highest regard.
But I've been that guy in the room (see my screen name), minus the assaults, and now I am NOT that guy.

You have much experience as a cop, as you stated. Can you honestly tell this civilian that the ONLY option was the one we see in the video?

I know your not a cop and I can understand your well thought out views on this particular case. There are so many factors that go into each incident and this one is no exception. There are likely other details that the cops knew at the time that we don't know. Our highest court has dealt with police use of force many times over the years. Some of the things that they have recognized (case law) is that when cops are in a use of force encounter, the situations are extremely dangerous, rapidly evolving and most times cops are reacting to what the bad guy does. The cops have to make split second decisions in these dangerous and rapidly evolving situations. The courts have ruled that they will NOT judge the cops actions based on a Monday morning quarterback standard. When judging the cops actions, the courts take into account all of the cops training and experience. They look at what they knew on the day the incident happened and more specifically, what they new the moment they made the decision to use deadly force.

You are correct that there is likely other options than the one they chose. Criminally that won't matter. It could factor in during a possible civil suit against the officers and their department. I have been in very similar situations dozens of times. I have gone into a bedroom to arrest a person and fortunately for me, I have never had someone in those situations pull any weapon on me...and guess what? I didn't shoot any of those people. Our society has failed in helping drug addicts, people who deal with serious mental illness and people who live in poverty. The end result of these failures leads many times to criminal behavior and that falls on our cops to deal with. Society has to bear much of this burden but the true bottom line doesn't change; This is yet another tragedy. This guy made a series of poor decisions in his life that ultimately led to his death. Sad deal but this stuff is happening all the time all over our country.

 

[Joker]

Each department is different in regards to tools or resources at the ready in the field. Sounds like the taser was not affective and that could be due to a lack of training (shooting at a blanket), prongs didn't hit the target, or poor aim. You can't go into that situation expecting that a taser is going to solve the problem becuase a lot of times they do not. We also use a batton launcher that is non leathal within 3 feet. It would have knocked the shit out of that kid and likely solved the situation... But there are no guarantees in matters like the above.

Fact of the matter is when facing a guy with a knife in a situation like that lethal force is a well established and legally excepted option. Anybody saying they'd try to disarm a guy high as fuck, mentally disabled, or just really pissed off, who is armed with a knife is asking for serious injury or death. That is not the job or expectation of police. We do not have to injured, stabbed, or shot at prior to using deadly force. Yeah it sucks to hear that but it's the law and has been upheld time and time again.

I feel sorry for the family of that kid as well as the officers involved. I can only imagine the guilt (regardless of legalities) that will be felt from here on over this incident.

Shouldn't you be setting tile in lieu of trying to defend the department? Nobody wants to do the job you guys do. Some of us are grateful that you chose this for your career.
Thank you

 

[2FORCEFULL]

again... I would like to say what I was say'n as it appears off... what I was say'n was that lawyers will have a payday over this deal..

officers did what they had to do.. and other will now after the fact say what could have or should have... me included...I was more on the what to do next... not how to do over..
and pointing out that the deal is far from over...depends on what the kids dad does now.... I put more, or all the blame on a father who has to call police to manage his son

my sons can all whoop my ass at 63 , but I raised them to respect their mom and myself...and don't ever have a worry that something like this would happen...if I tell them shut the fuck up... usually don't have to say it twice... but will also say this... and I don't care where it happens..if a man wielding a knife at me and I have a gun in my hand..we're gonna trade knife for bullets.. there was no good intention coming from the guy with the knife... although aftermath, everyone and my self included.. will see a different way to skin the cat... my hearth goes out to all that will suffer for the lawless manor this kid lived his life, sad for the emotion he was going through... but more sad for those involved closely... he is gone... but those that were involve will feel his pain...

when I first heard about this the first thing that pop'd into my head was suicide by cop..and I don't belive the bull shit about officers that want to kill people so they got a police job... people that wanna kill people don't fuc around with job apps and training...they just start killing..

I want to sincere apologise to any one or officer that thinks I ment that I could have done a better job,,,,or that they were in the wrong,... only wanted to point out that the video is gonna cause even more grief ....

sad deal 2FF