gonna buy a gun this week

[McRib]

got my eyes set on a sig sauer. all my little research has me goin in sig's direction. prob gonna go with the P250 compact. they seem to offer it in many cal's. prob gonna go with the .40. any other input would be great

 

[Flyinbowtie]

I have not handled a 250.
I have handled and own more than one Sig.
In my personal opinion, the Sig and HK are the fnest combat handguns in the world.
If you need the smaller weapon, the 229 in .40 is also a great choice.
Your research has served you well

 

[Just Electric]

i have a usp sig compact 40 and i like it alot especially cause it came with a 9mm barrel and clips so i can convert it.they tend to have a little bit of a trigger pull like the ruger but practice and grouping you will get the hang of it.i notice the trigger pull when i first starting to shoot it when my first 2 shots were to the right and the rest stayed grouped

 

[Baja Big Dog]

This is gonna be good, by the third page, some will convince you that nothing short of a bazooka will do!!

Then DJfaggie will guide you in the right direction!!

This is kinda like when some tools ask what truck is the best...are you gonna base your purchase on what we say?? Just curious,,,,




ps, you will never go wrong with a Sig, but rest assured someone that never owned one, or owns one will tell you different.. stay prepared!!arty2:arty2:arty2:

 

[djunkie]

This is gonna be good, by the third page, some will convince you that nothing short of a bazooka will do!!

Then DJfaggie will guide you in the right direction!!

This is kinda like when some tools ask what truck is the best...are you gonna base your purchase on what we say?? Just curious,,,,




ps, you will never go wrong with a Sig, but rest assured someone that never owned one, or owns one will tell you different.. stay prepared!!arty2:arty2:arty2:

God? Is that you?

 

[pronstar]

For a compact, I like my Glock 19 because it has fewer protrusions to snag.

For a full-size, my next gun will be a Sig...or a Kimber :thumbsup

 

[HPBoats83]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=446215&highlight=sig+sauer+glock

I don't know if you have considered the Glocks at all but that's what I have.

 

[tbone1904]

curious the purpose?

 

[Boschma]

The sig is nice. I keep a Kimber .45 Raptor Custom Shop in my center console. It's extremely accurate. But if I had to get something small and compact, I'd go with the h&k .40 My nucle has one and I've shot it many times....Very accurate, and all around extremely well built gun. ya.....What's the purpose? Last time I used the .45 was to shoot a coyote that was trying to kill some of our calves.

 

[HolyMoly]

If you like the gun....BUY IT!

Then....Shoot it! (preferably not at bums hanging outside AM/PM)

I was looking to get a Sig 226 (DOA) because....just because I like guns.

As far as handgun caliber, .40 will suffice. Remember, we don't use handguns because they are powerful, we use them because they are convenient and easy to carry/conceal (and bitchen).

 

[McRib]

If you like the gun....BUY IT!

Then....Shoot it! (preferably not at bums hanging outside AM/PM)

I was looking to get a Sig 226 (DOA) because....just because I like guns.

As far as handgun caliber, .40 will suffice. Remember, we don't use handguns because they are powerful, we use them because they are convenient and easy to carry/conceal (and bitchen).

hahahahahah you remember that one do ya?? i would never.

 

[McRib]

curious the purpose?

have always carried a gun since i was allowed to legally buy one. sometimes illegally concealed but most of the time locked in a case in my back seat. i take it everywhere i go. have been shot and vowed to never be able to not shoot back when applicable ever since. just a since of security for me. as cliche as that sounds. i can take care of myself but im not gonna bring a knife to a gun fight in the middle of a one legged man ass kicking skermish

 

[BajaMike]

got my eyes set on a sig sauer. all my little research has me goin in sig's direction. prob gonna go with the P250 compact. they seem to offer it in many cal's. prob gonna go with the .40. any other input would be great

Anybody been to this guys class?? "Front Sight Firearm Training". The quiz is interesting.

http://www.frontsight.com/index.asp?


He seems to prefer guns in the "4s", i.e. 45, 40, 44mag, etc, for self defense.

His classes are at some "gun" resort near Las Vegas.

I just came across it while searching for gun sales in Texas.

:blah::blah:

 

[Rexone]

I think HM has heard of them.

 

[Baja Big Dog]

God? Is that you?

YES my son...its me!!!:boobeyes::boobeyes:

 

[ukxpat]

How do the H&K USP's feel when compared to the Sig's?

I've had both and I just couldn't get on with the HK USP 45! I shot the Sig way better than I did the HK but that was just a personal preference. I sold both of them and went to Glocks as I shoot in competition and the Glock is by far the most popular gun for production competition shooting.

I've now transitioned to a 2011 and LOVE IT but that's a pure competition gun, there's no way that you could use it for Personal Defence with a 1 1/4 lb trigger!

I have just ordered a Springfield XD in .40 as I love the way they shoot and they have the same grip angle as a 1911!

Here's a couple of pics (I've made some mods to the trigger after this was taken):

Here are my previous guns: HK USP 45 and Sig Sauer SP 2022

I would definitely take the Sig over the HK but that's just my opinion. Just as an FYI, I haven't seen anyone shooting an HK in competition but have seen quite a few Sigs!

Just make sure you LOVE the way it shoots before purchasing! Rent them both from the range a few times before buying...ask me how I know

Good luck with your decision, and whichever gun you get, you're getting a top quality firearm.

 

[Deleted Account]

Anybody been to this guys class?? "Front Sight Firearm Training". The quiz is interesting.

http://www.frontsight.com/index.asp?


He seems to prefer guns in the "4s", i.e. 45, 40, 44mag, etc, for self defense.

His classes are at some "gun" resort near Las Vegas.

I just came across it while searching for gun sales in Texas.

:blah::blah:

Holy Mioly is about to be an instructor there...

 

[DaveC]

Find a range that rents both and go give them a test drive.

its all personal preference.

Someone gave me that advice (NOT here ) and it was a really good idea.

 

[boatnam2]

So the 2011 is the top gun? Damm that thing is sweet.

 

[Sleeper CP]

Find a range that rents both and go give them a test drive.

its all personal preference.
.

Great advice....shoot first then buy.

I have several hand guns one is an Interarms Star Fire(9mm) it's a compact carry gun that I can out shoot my Glock 17 and S&W .38 special with. It's a great single action autoloader....it shoots accurately partly because of it's weight. Stainless gun. The Glock holds more ammo but the Star out shoots it every time.

When I get some extra money I'm going to find an Starfire in .40 cal.

S CP

 

[ukxpat]

So the 2011 is the top gun? Damm that thing is sweet.

Thanks boatnam2! I love my 2011 but it's crazy expensive! Luckily I got it after I had a REALLY good tax refund...plus this gun is still going to be better than me in 20 years time as well! Also, I get 21 rds of .40 in the double stack mags :boobeyes:

There are some nicer guns out there (SVI) but you're looking at around $5,000 and up for their custom guns!!! Way beyond my reach but if I win the lottery...

 

[Abc123]

Find a range that rents both and go give them a test drive.

its all personal preference.

Someone gave me that advice (NOT here ) and it was a really good idea.

Great Advice!

 

[HolyMoly]

Find a range that rents both and go give them a test drive.

its all personal preference.

Someone gave me that advice (NOT here ) and it was a really good idea.

It is all personal preference, but in the beginning, most of us don't know what that means when we don't have a personal preference.

Had I gone out and got advice, I would have never bought a Glock 22 as my first gun. I have smaller hands and I have to modify my grip on the G22. But, since I had never shot before, I didn't have to modify anything...I just had to develop a grip. I now can shoot the G22 (or any Glock for that matter) very very well and I prefer it....just because that is what I have used and trained with. But, if I had really paid attention to how my hand fit on a gun, I probably would have bought a single stack or even a Springfield XD because I can acquire the "perfect" grip on guns with slimmer frames/stocks. Now that I am super comfortable at shooting glocks, and can now pickup a smaller framed gun and shoot it with no problem...and I use my normal-to-me grip on the gun. I'm actually glad I started with a large frame gun.

My buddy is really into how "a gun feels" when he picks it up. He has been out training with several guns looking for that magical feel. Because these different guns also had different safety devices and limited holster choices for a couple (my buddy is a lefty), he has not progressed with his skills, and quite frankly, he has been very dangerous (to himself) at times. My goal has always been to develop skills first and not be dependent on that the gun "felt good/right." Besides...I've never picked up a gun I didn't like!

The bottom line is that most pistols in the $400 and above category these days are all good dependable guns and there are quite a few under that $$ that are also very good and dependable. If you have a gun that you specifically use for home defense or concealed carry, you should do most of your training with those guns so that you know how to use them/acquire them reflexively.

 

[pronstar]

There's a lot to how a gun feels.
I'm a poor shot with my Glock 19.

But when I first shot a Kimber, Sig and ukxpat's Barstow, I'm suddenly a good shot from the get-go.

 

[Froggystyle]

Just as an FYI, I haven't seen anyone shooting an HK in competition but have seen quite a few Sigs!

No... you are right. Most are too busy shooting terrorists with them to go to competitions...

Sig and HK are the two premium tactical handguns in the world, period. Nobody in special forces or NSW carries a Glock for a reason.

Target practice/competition is masturbation... get really good at it and it still doesn't get you anywhere. When it comes to poppers, movers, instinctive fire, butt-stroking someone with your pistol, immediate action drills, CQB and home defense (a combination of all of the above) most tactical shooters will be found with an H&K or a Sig... period.

 

[Sleeper CP]

Target practice/competition is masturbation... get really good at it and it still doesn't get you anywhere. .

You say that as if you have something against masterbation


Happy New Year Wes. Sometime this first part of the year I need you to come over to the range when I'm shooting.

S CP

 

[RLJ676]

No... you are right. Most are too busy shooting terrorists with them to go to competitions...

Sig and HK are the two premium tactical handguns in the world, period. Nobody in special forces or NSW carries a Glock for a reason.

Target practice/competition is masturbation... get really good at it and it still doesn't get you anywhere. When it comes to poppers, movers, instinctive fire, butt-stroking someone with your pistol, immediate action drills, CQB and home defense (a combination of all of the above) most tactical shooters will be found with an H&K or a Sig... period.

I was going to make a comment that you have watched too much 24 or hang out on AR web sites with all the other tacticool dudes, but remembered I think you were in the service and your advice is more than just stroking the popular guns and is experience.:thumbsup

Those are both good guns, but you pay a big premium for either one when its not issued to you Also, both have pretty suspect customer service for civilians, to the point the joke is that HK hates you.

If you like striker fired guns, I have found the Smith M&P 40 to be great (so much so I sold my Sig Elite because I didn't like it too much, at least for the cost). Also, the Smith's made in the US if anyone gives a damn about that anymore. I like the ergonomics much better than the glock or xd's and read most people do as well. (this is a bit redundant from my advice on pb)

The best advice was to rent and shoot and see what you like and shoot well. You can then see if you like striker fired, dao, etc and what fits your hand well. Any of the major names that you drop 500+ on will be reliable and shoot nice most likely, just your preference and what you want to spend.

 

[Froggystyle]

The best advice was to rent and shoot and see what you like and shoot well. You can then see if you like striker fired, dao, etc and what fits your hand well. Any of the major names that you drop 500+ on will be reliable and shoot nice most likely, just your preference and what you want to spend.

Great advice. Even better would be to do the above, but with a likely course of fire... for example... darkened room, moving target etc...

Target practice is good, in the sense that "practice makes perfect". The full version of that quote is that "perfect practice makes perfect", and there is an important distinction...

Targets don't move, they don't need predicting, they don't need to be led, and they don't fight back. They also can't hear you. Be thinking hard about the prospective job at hand before you buy, or even practice anything for that matter. Work towards a goal. If it is in a quick draw safe by the side of your bed, practice it several times a night opening it until it is second nature, then only practice it once a night. Practice the point of aim for the doorway, or how you would clear a house if you did have a gun with you...

I'm not saying... I'm just sayin...

 

[Flyinbowtie]

Wes, we should make this topic a sticky...you and I always seem to come from the same place.
Wonder why that is?

 

[RLJ676]

Great advice. Even better would be to do the above, but with a likely course of fire... for example... darkened room, moving target etc...

Do you have a range that has any ability to practice like this? My local range has all sorts of rules....no quick draw, no rapid fire, no double tap, etc. All I can do is practice shooting with both eyes open in a proper stance! Not too real world for defense unfortunately.

Need to make friends with some people that have land in MI I guess. Back in Missouri where I'm from I had my grandmothers farm to "fool" around with and shoot. Would come in real handy now with the AR I'm building.

 

[ukxpat]

No... you are right. Most are too busy shooting terrorists with them to go to competitions...

Sig and HK are the two premium tactical handguns in the world, period. Nobody in special forces or NSW carries a Glock for a reason.

Target practice/competition is masturbation... get really good at it and it still doesn't get you anywhere. When it comes to poppers, movers, instinctive fire, butt-stroking someone with your pistol, immediate action drills, CQB and home defense (a combination of all of the above) most tactical shooters will be found with an H&K or a Sig... period.

I totally hear ya on that and agree 100%! The competition is a game and is all about getting the fasted time and there is absolutely NOTHING tactical about it! Plus the targets don't shoot back at you

I don't know why but I just could not get on with the HK! It was the first gun I purchased after a 12 year break from shooting, and was a rushed decision! After I bought the HK, I then rented the Sig, fell in love with it and had total buyers remorse!

If I were going to have dedicated personal protection weapon I would definitely go for the Sig, hands down but for now my Springfield 1911 will serve dual duty as my personal defense weapon and occasional competition gun (low round count matches :grumble!

I suspect that this is one of a number or reasons most special forces don't use Glocks:

 

[VoodooMedMan]

Could be wrong but I'm guessing that was a .40 caliber?

I totally hear ya on that and agree 100%! The competition is a game and is all about getting the fasted time and there is absolutely NOTHING tactical about it! Plus the targets don't shoot back at you

I don't know why but I just could not get on with the HK! It was the first gun I purchased after a 12 year break from shooting, and was a rushed decision! After I bought the HK, I then rented the Sig, fell in love with it and had total buyers remorse!

If I were going to have dedicated personal protection weapon I would definitely go for the Sig, hands down but for now my Springfield 1911 will serve dual duty as my personal defense weapon and occasional competition gun (low round count matches :grumble!

I suspect that this is one of a number or reasons most special forces don't use Glocks:

 

[IRRebel]

I'm a huge handgun fanatic and avid shooter of them since I was 8 (Thanks Dad!).

I've also done my share of shooting and ballistics testing on gallon jugs of water and wet newpaper. Here's what I think, carry, and why. (ask and I'll tell the gallon jugs of water story! Pretty eye opening!)

I really like the Glock, shot quite a few, including 10mm's which led to my decision to go S&W 10mm some 20+ years ago, I'll get into that in a second. Shot many Sigs, which I LOVED (P226), but only available in 9mm at that time.

The .40 S&W came about from some FBI deal because they are such bad shots they needed more power. They went with 10mm, and S&W built a few for them. WAY to powerful (recoil), so they (S&W) came up with medium, then light loads for it, then realizing they could shorten the case a bit and use their already susbstantial 9mm frame as a basis. Viola, the .40 was born!

I advise anyone towards the .40! (My brother and father both carry them) I still carry the 10mm (I own 4, all S&W's) with factory loaded Silvertips (No longer made full power factory ammo) only because I know whatever I hit will be destroyed, and recoil I am used to! But they are heavy, all S/S weapons! Kills the .45, my second favorite (own 5 of those)

Bear in mind I also hunt (Since I was 16, I'm 45 now) exclusively with handguns. And I don't care what it is here, I can drop it with any of various .44 magnum and .357 Maximum revolvers, .445 Supermag, or might have to go with the only revolver in my arsenal that physically hurts to shoot, my .475 Linebaugh Long (Converted Ruger SRM). Nothing I can't stop with a repeating handgun short of Africa (Not even real sure about that with the right handloads), provided I do my part in aiming.

Long and short, you cannot go wrong with Sig, Glock, Beretta, Smith, or even Taurus. The pic shown of a blown up Glock was NO DOUBT due to ill maintenance and an idiot doing reloads, IMO. But you're on the right track with .40.

Ray

Tactical shooting events, or "woods walk" events, different matter save for this. Back when I did it, caliber and velocity means nothing and effective torque on the metal targets meant everything!

Did I mention I carry and use a 10mm?

I might also mention that during the trials when the US Gov't was replacing the .45 Gov't Model with a NATO 9mm, the Glock was included. It was the ONLY gun to survive all tests (Including the frame being run over by a Tank, and crushed in a vise, trying to prove the plastic frame wrong), but was forsaken at the time ONLY, and I dearly mean the ONLY part, because Beretta had a US facility...............

No Gun has EVER gone through what Glock has to prove itself! And look what is on the hip of the next cop that stops you to give a speeding ticket............ (This is from a S&W fan!)

 

[Flyinbowtie]

Rebel;

Good thoughts from someone who knows his handguns and what he likes.

One clarification, though, from a 25 yr. veteran cop who was a Rangemaster, SWAT team member, and Training Program Manager.
The info I got on that competition to replace the 1911 is different than what you got, but who knows. My understanding was that the Sig 226 was the out and out winner and first choice of the military, but they lost out for two reasons, the dollars were a bit too high, and they refused to produce the weapon in the U.S.
Beretta won on $ and a U.S. production deal.
But who knows.
Glock is very popular among cop shops for many reasons, not the least of which is the deal Glock cuts LE agencies to purchase mass quantities of their firearms. At one point, Glock was even tossing around the idea of leasing the weapons to the agencies, and replacing them every X years with new units at minimal costs. Glock wanted to get thier stuff in the hands of as many cops as possible to show the public that Glock was, "the one". that program was in the idea stage when I retired in 2004. I have no idea where it went.
Glock is Good at marketing, I just do not trust their product, but that is my opinion, ya know?
I strongly support what Froggy said, the two finest combat handguns in the world are Sig and HK. You don't hear of S.F. folks dependng on anything else when it comes to semi-automatic handguns. It is Sig or HK, period.
That says alot about the weapon.
I am a wheelgun fan too. I love my 6" 686. It is just too damn big to conceal effectively, and I am 6-4 about 280. Believe me, I tried!

....Love these discussions.

 

[DaveC]

You seem just a tad bit "serious" about these things. Maybe more serious than one needs to be.... I'm sure there is a support group somewhere.

I don't plan on being quite that serious. Just like to go out and squeeze off a few rounds every once in a while. Mostly with friends. Maybe I'm just a little bit more easy going.

BTW the real reason I own a gun is because I can. That and it pissed liberals off when you tell them you own one

But I agree if I were to take these things a bit more seriously I think I would consult with more experts more before I purchased. (I did, just not quite as extensive as you did I guess)

It is all personal preference, but in the beginning, most of us don't know what that means when we don't have a personal preference.

Had I gone out and got advice, I would have never bought a Glock 22 as my first gun. I have smaller hands and I have to modify my grip on the G22. But, since I had never shot before, I didn't have to modify anything...I just had to develop a grip. I now can shoot the G22 (or any Glock for that matter) very very well and I prefer it....just because that is what I have used and trained with. But, if I had really paid attention to how my hand fit on a gun, I probably would have bought a single stack or even a Springfield XD because I can acquire the "perfect" grip on guns with slimmer frames/stocks. Now that I am super comfortable at shooting glocks, and can now pickup a smaller framed gun and shoot it with no problem...and I use my normal-to-me grip on the gun. I'm actually glad I started with a large frame gun.

My buddy is really into how "a gun feels" when he picks it up. He has been out training with several guns looking for that magical feel. Because these different guns also had different safety devices and limited holster choices for a couple (my buddy is a lefty), he has not progressed with his skills, and quite frankly, he has been very dangerous (to himself) at times. My goal has always been to develop skills first and not be dependent on that the gun "felt good/right." Besides...I've never picked up a gun I didn't like!

The bottom line is that most pistols in the $400 and above category these days are all good dependable guns and there are quite a few under that $$ that are also very good and dependable. If you have a gun that you specifically use for home defense or concealed carry, you should do most of your training with those guns so that you know how to use them/acquire them reflexively.

But carry on. I fucking absolutely love gun threads. They are way better than the Jet and V-drive section on PB.

 

[Froggystyle]

No Gun has EVER gone through what Glock has to prove itself! And look what is on the hip of the next cop that stops you to give a speeding ticket............ (This is from a S&W fan!)

I'll give you that... Cops writing speeding tickets will almost certainly be carrying a Glock.

I suggest that if you are a Mujahideen waiting in a darkened cave about to get your piano lessons turned into pink mist by a SEAL... you will find a different brand on the hip.

BTW... I will also suggest that if you are a booger eater sitting in a hostage situation in a hotel room and a SWAT cop comes through the door, you won't find a Glock on him either.

Condition of the weapon is of critical importance to a tactical shooter, and loaded, with the first shot double action is absolutely the best mechanism to clear your holster, pull the slack out of the trigger and press on a threat. The reason we don't carry Glocks is all the ND's you get drawing a Glock in a tactical situation, and the inherent lack of safety found in a weapon without a decocking lever in single action mode all the time. I would NEVER follow someone with a shoulder holster that had a Glock. That dude can move to the back of the train in my platoon.

 

[Froggystyle]

I don't plan on being quite that serious. Just like to go out and squeeze off a few rounds every once in a while. Mostly with friends. Maybe I'm just a little bit more easy going.

My point about "intent" exactly. If home defense is your justification, you need to purchase and familiarize yourself with not only a home defense appropriate weapon, but in the tactics necessary to be successful in that course of fire.

If you plan on going out on weekends, gunning back a few silver bullets and being the nemesis of every bowling pin, refrigerator or busted up car in 100 yards... you can get anything you want and be happy at it. And if a refrigerator ever comes through your door at 1:30 AM you will know what to do...

 

[DaveC]

english for the civilians please

Condition of the weapon is of critical importance to a tactical shooter, and loaded, with the first shot double action is absolutely the best mechanism to clear your holster, pull the slack out of the trigger and press on a threat. The reason we don't carry Glocks is all the ND's you get drawing a Glock in a tactical situation, and the inherent lack of safety found in a weapon without a decocking lever in single action mode all the time. I would NEVER follow someone with a shoulder holster that had a Glock. That dude can move to the back of the train in my platoon.

 

[DaveC]

I thought you knew where I lived??.. according to the DA in my county I'm not allowed to discharge in self defense. I know what the law says but they disagree with it. I'm supposed to wait until the refrigerator shoots and kills me first before I'm allowed to defend myself.

Shiat they even closed all the ranges so there is no where to learn anything let alone proper tactics.

Besides I cannot keep a loaded firearm in the house anyway cuz of the kids. Might get prosecuted for that too.

So my intent is to allow everything to collect dust in a gun safe, unused. Sad really, but since "guns kill people" around here I guess I have little choice.

But you are correct my arch nemesis the rusted car body is going to get it next time I see him LOL

My point about "intent" exactly. If home defense is your justification, you need to purchase and familiarize yourself with not only a home defense appropriate weapon, but in the tactics necessary to be successful in that course of fire.

If you plan on going out on weekends, gunning back a few silver bullets and being the nemesis of every bowling pin, refrigerator or busted up car in 100 yards... you can get anything you want and be happy at it. And if a refrigerator ever comes through your door at 1:30 AM you will know what to do...

BTW all kidding aside. What would you recomend for a .45? Kimber or ?.

For the .40 I went against your advice on the sig, mostly cuz of the feel and cost. The sig was a nice piece though and I probably should have got it. I might listen to you this time.

 

[HolyMoly]

My point about "intent" exactly. If home defense is your justification, you need to purchase and familiarize yourself with not only a home defense appropriate weapon, but in the tactics necessary to be successful in that course of fire.

If you plan on going out on weekends, gunning back a few silver bullets and being the nemesis of every bowling pin, refrigerator or busted up car in 100 yards... you can get anything you want and be happy at it. And if a refrigerator ever comes through your door at 1:30 AM you will know what to do...

Froggy....out at Front Sight...there have been 7 times when people have shot themselves. 5 of them were when people were presenting from the holster to shoot a timed turning target during a skills test. NONE of them have been Glocks. 4 of them were Double/Single Sigs in which they had failed to decock prior to putting in the holster. Under the stress of an actual skills test, they started taking short cuts...and because of the double action first pull...they were used to putting their finger on trigger very early and depended on the safety of the long first trigger pull. The single action pull is so light, that you can imagine how easy it is to get a negligent discharge by putting your finger on the trigger expecting there to be a double action tension. These guys put their fingers on the trigger so fast, that they actually shot themselves thru the holster before it the muzzle cleared the holster.

The other two people that shot themselves in the leg the same way were people shooting 1911's and they choose to not/forgot to engage the safety, again trying to save time. They too also got used the the thumb safety providing them the ability to put their finger on the trigger very early...with tension. Under the stress of a skills test, they skipped the safety on reholstering and put their fingers so quickly on the trigger that they too shot themselves in the leg before their muzzle cleared the holster.

The other 2 shootings was one guy that shot himself in his support hand when presenting...another trigger control issue and bad presentation...and another LEO and another double/single Sig...which was not decocked prior to reholstering. The last shooting was a guy with a tricked out wide trigger on a 1911 that caught on his holster when reholstering...and he forgot to engage the safety!!

All of these shootings happened because people depended on safeties...and when they failed to properly use their safeties...it became very clear that they got on the trigger WAY to early and had unsafe HABITS because they were used to the safeties!

Front Sight has an average of 300-400 people per weekend. Over half are shooting for the first time...and presenting from the holster...from concealment on timed turning targets. They do a skills test at the end to help stress people out, so they can get a glimpse of what happens under stress. In all the years they have been in business...only 7 people have shot themselves. None were glocks, and ALL of them were military or LEO! NO CIVILIANS have shot themselves out at Front Sight!!! Much of the problem that Military and LEO have out at Front Sight is that they are taught poor and unsafe gun handling...and they have a hard time adapting. And, we shoot on very fast targets. Turning targets at 1.5 seconds from 3 and 5 meters...from the holster, from concealment. They add .2 of a second at 7 and 10 meters, and another .2 of a second at 15 meters. And, we have to get 2 AIMED shots off to the thoracic cavity...NO DOUBLE TAPS.

My argument is that with a Glock, I know the only safety is built right into the trigger. So I TRAIN by only putting my finger on the trigger when I'm ready to shoot. I am much more aware that I CANNOT get on the trigger early...I'm the safety, because of that...where often other people depend on additional safeties! And when they don't operate their safeties correctly....then they are much more of a safety hazzard than those who train with Glocks.

Bottom line is...safeties can't protect you from stupid and bad gun handling. People who train with Glocks and similar (XD's and etc) have far more trigger awareness and safety built into their own reflexive minds vs. people who depend on safeties to stop them from accidentally/negligently pulling the trigger.

 

[Froggystyle]

english for the civilians please

One of the key characteristics, good or bad depending on your perspective of the Glock design is that it is always in "single action" mode.

Backing up a step, the average repeating/automatic handgun has a couple of basically standard parts. The frame, the slide, the magazine, the barrel and the hammer. When you load a mag into a closed gun (slide forward) there is nothing chambered. You actually "rack" the slide back, which exposes the firing block in the slide to a fresh round. As it comes forward when you release the slide, it picks up and chambers this round. Now, you have what is considered to be a round "in battery" and the cocking hammer will be back and the gun is in "single action" mode... which means that a very light trigger pull will release the hammer and fire the weapon and the process will repeat, this time automatically as the chamber pressure will blow back the slide, concurrently extracting the spent round and ejecting it, exposing the next round in the magazine, picking it up and chambering it, again putting the weapon in single action mode. This will repeat until you are out of bullets in the mag, at which point a little catch is lifted that holds the slide back, signalling that you are out of bullets and ready to reload. You drop your empty mag, insert a new one and release the slide... starting the process over.

When prepping for a tactical purpose a "decocking lever is employed, at this point, or a carefully controlled de-cocking action is used to hold the hammer back, pull the trigger, releasing the hammer and easing the hammer into "de-cocked" condition. You then would holster your weapon. The weapon is ready to fire now, but with significant effort. You will actually need to pull the trigger hard enough to cock that hammer all the way back until it releases and fires the weapon. This is called "double action" mode since you have to cock it and fire in the same trigger pull. To give you an idea of the difference in pull required, the following are stock specs for the H&K, Sig and Glock...

H&K: Double action pull =10-12 # Single action pull =3# (As a side note, it takes approximately 1# of pressure to "hold" the DA pull at the "break" point.

Sig: Double Action pull = 12# Single action pull = 4#

Glock: Single action only = 4-5#

Basically, when holstered and ready to fire, the Sig and H&K require 10-12# of force to fire pressed onto the trigger. This is significant, and would require something more than an accidental brushing to fire.

The Glock doesn't have a hammer, or a de-cocking lever. This is a selling point for Glock folks who consider it to be a benefit that it is "always ready to fire" and you don't have to work on two trigger pulls, one a double action, one a single action. Unfortunately for tactical folks, who do everything from butt-stroking an opponent with the muzzle of the gun (very common practice... the barrel, trigger guard and magazine well make a signature three point impact design on the assholes face) to drawing and holding while acquiring and verifying the target, the single action mode almost encourages you to "ND" or Negligent Discharge the weapon... It is just too easy to accidentally pull it when wearing gloves, switching from your primary to your secondary etc... Our above Glock fan actually has a modified1.25# trigger pull... and as he said, is useless for tactical purposes. You even think trigger and the gun goes bang. I shudder to think how easy it would be for that gun to go off during concealed carry evolutions.

Hope this makes it a little more clear.

 

[DaveC]

thanks. Understood.

My other gun is a Beretta 96. Makes sense on the pressure needed single vs. double.

I wasn't sure what ND meant. And how double action worked into the whole tactical realm. Now I do.

Just like anything. The right tool for the right job.

One of the key characteristics, good or bad depending on your perspective of the Glock design is that it is always in "single action" mode.

Backing up a step, the average repeating/automatic handgun has a couple of basically standard parts. The frame, the slide, the magazine, the barrel and the hammer. When you load a mag into a closed gun (slide forward) there is nothing chambered. You actually "rack" the slide back, which exposes the firing block in the slide to a fresh round. As it comes forward when you release the slide, it picks up and chambers this round. Now, you have what is considered to be a round "in battery" and the cocking hammer will be back and the gun is in "single action" mode... which means that a very light trigger pull will release the hammer and fire the weapon and the process will repeat, this time automatically as the chamber pressure will blow back the slide, concurrently extracting the spent round and ejecting it, exposing the next round in the magazine, picking it up and chambering it, again putting the weapon in single action mode. This will repeat until you are out of bullets in the mag, at which point a little catch is lifted that holds the slide back, signalling that you are out of bullets and ready to reload. You drop your empty mag, insert a new one and release the slide... starting the process over.

When prepping for a tactical purpose a "decocking lever is employed, at this point, or a carefully controlled de-cocking action is used to hold the hammer back, pull the trigger, releasing the hammer and easing the hammer into "de-cocked" condition. You then would holster your weapon. The weapon is ready to fire now, but with significant effort. You will actually need to pull the trigger hard enough to cock that hammer all the way back until it releases and fires the weapon. This is called "double action" mode since you have to cock it and fire in the same trigger pull. To give you an idea of the difference in pull required, the following are stock specs for the H&K, Sig and Glock...

H&K: Double action pull =10-12 # Single action pull =3# (As a side note, it takes approximately 1# of pressure to "hold" the DA pull at the "break" point.

Sig: Double Action pull = 12# Single action pull = 4#

Glock: Single action only = 4-5#

Basically, when holstered and ready to fire, the Sig and H&K require 10-12# of force to fire pressed onto the trigger. This is significant, and would require something more than an accidental brushing to fire.

The Glock doesn't have a hammer, or a de-cocking lever. This is a selling point for Glock folks who consider it to be a benefit that it is "always ready to fire" and you don't have to work on two trigger pulls, one a double action, one a single action. Unfortunately for tactical folks, who do everything from butt-stroking an opponent with the muzzle of the gun (very common practice... the barrel, trigger guard and magazine well make a signature three point impact design on the assholes face) to drawing and holding while acquiring and verifying the target, the single action mode almost encourages you to "ND" or Negligent Discharge the weapon... It is just too easy to accidentally pull it when wearing gloves, switching from your primary to your secondary etc... Our above Glock fan actually has a modified1.25# trigger pull... and as he said, is useless for tactical purposes. You even think trigger and the gun goes bang. I shudder to think how easy it would be for that gun to go off during concealed carry evolutions.

Hope this makes it a little more clear.

 

[Froggystyle]

Froggy....out at Front Sight...there have been 7 times when people have shot themselves. 5 of them were when people were presenting from the holster to shoot a timed turning target during a skills test. NONE of them have been glocks. 3 of them were Double/Single Sigs in which they had failed to decock prior to putting in the holster. Under the stress of an actual skills test, they started taking short cuts...and because of the double action first pull...they were used to putting their finger on trigger very early and depended on the safety of the long first trigger pull. The single action pull is so light, that you can imagine how easy it is to get a negligent discharge by putting your finger on the trigger expecting there to be a double action tension. These guys put their fingers on the trigger so fast, that they actually shot themselves thru the holster before it the muzzle cleared the holster.

Back to "Perfect Practice makes Perfect". Reality is, nobody ever won a holstering contest. When we practice, regardless of the course of fire, the last thing you do is sweep yours and your buddies targets for movement, clear the area, decock and holster. Then the next course starts... sometime. All of our pistol stuff is done with a failure initiated in your primary, you switch to your secondary while moving your primary out of the way, and your finger doesn't go anywhere near the trigger until it is pointed downrange. For frontsight to allow that type of action to develop, from the holstering in single action to the finger on the trigger in the holster doesn't speak well for the quality of the instructor cadre frankly.

The other two people that shot themselves in the leg the same way were people shooting 1911's and they choose to engage the safety, again trying to save time. They too also got used the the thumb safety providing them the ability to put their finger on the trigger very early...with tension. Under the stress of a skills test, they skipped the safety on reholstering and put their fingers so quickly on the trigger that they too shot themselves in the leg before their muzzle cleared the holster.

A) We never safe a weapon in the holster unless you are seriously not in danger of shooting it. We will safe our primary while patrolling, but the unsafing mechanism is so built in, you don't even think about it. Click... bang.

B) Multiply this threat by 100 when in a "train" with people in front of you that you like. If you AD while presenting or doing a low hold (retention) you frag your buddy in the back of the leg.

Front Sight has an average of 300-400 people per weekend. Over half are shooting for the first time...and presenting from the holster...from concealment on timed turning targets. They do a skills test at the end to help stress people out, so they can get a glimpse of what happens under stress. In all the years they have been in business...only 7 people have shot themselves. None were glocks, and ALL of them were military or LEO! NO CIVILIANS have shot themselves out at Front Sight!!! Much of the problem that Military and LEO have out at Front Sight is that they are taught poor and unsafe gun handling...and they have a hard time adapting.

More reason for more instructors for the "more experienced" folks. I have seen way more complacency accidents with weapons than I have new guy errors. New guys are so scared and respectful of the gun still that they hardly ever fuck up. It is the season vets you have to worry about.

They say there are two types of shooters... those that have had an ND and those that are going to. My life changed when I had one, and in my defense, it was on an M-60, I was brand new, the gun was pointed downrange and I was trying to "de-cock" it, which doesn't happen on a weapon that fires from the bolt back. Even easing it forward results in a bang as soon as it gets into battery. Ooops.

And, we shoot on very fast targets. Turning targets at 1.5 seconds from 3 and 5 meters...from the holster, from concealment. They add .2 of a second at 7 and 10 meters, and another .2 of a second at 15 meters. And, we have to get 2 AIMED shots off to the thoracic cavity...NO DOUBLE TAPS.

Not to trump you, but in order to get into the kill house you need to take a "kill house test" every single day to get in. That includes a course of fire that sees you at the end of it shooting your pistol at 25 yards into a 3x5" card hole in the chest and a 2x4" hole in the head, mosambique drill in 2.5 seconds from retention. At 5 yards you have 1.5 seconds from the holster to do the same... three shots, two in the chest, one in the grape.

My argument is that with a Glock, I know the only safety is built right into the trigger. So I TRAIN by only putting my finger on the trigger when I'm ready to shoot. I am much more aware that I CANNOT get on the trigger early...I'm the safety, because of that...where often other people depend on additional safeties! And when they don't operate their safeties correctly....then they are much more of a safety hazzard than those who train with Glocks.

Glock or not, that is how I train. Your finger goes on the trigger as you are pressing on a threat, but not before. Anyone who triggers in the holster, regardless of weapon is looking to shoot himself in the foot at some point.

Bottom line is...safeties can't protect you from stupid and bad gun handling. People who train with Glocks and similar (XD's and etc) have far more trigger awareness and safety built into their own reflexive minds vs. people who depend on safeties to stop them from accidentally/negligently pulling the trigger.

Yeah, they have to because the gun is inherently unsafe.

 

[VoodooMedMan]

You're right SWAT doesn't use Glocks. LAPD used 1911 .45's. As with any type of product you can buy different types for a specific purpose. I have no doubt that Sig or H&K is a fantastic weapon for Seal teams. But what is done by those guys is extremely different from a target shooter or a self defense shooter. Hello Seals are on the offense in covert operations. Even a patrol officer isn't going to find himself "butt stroking" someones face unless he want be fired at the minimum and probably spend some time in the pokey. Glock or XD and the like are great for duty or self defense. You won't hear of someone pulling the trigger and forgetting to throw a thumb safety in a high stress situation to protect their lives that they have practiced everyday for hours as a seal.

To the comment that LEO's are trained poorly I say it is more a lack of training. They are trained correctly from the get go but the academy is only 6 months and covers much more than just firearms. After that it is only so often they are required to qualify (usually only at patrol level and such) and it's target shooting for accuracy without shooting yourself. You have guys that take it seriously and train and others who go years without shooting.

This stuff cracks me up because instead of trying to help someone some guys get all holier than thou about it. I don't know if it's trying to show off or what. Yes we know some of you were Seals and some were are LEO and some spend every waking moment at Front Sight. How about gearing answers to the OP's situation and not yours.

 

[Froggystyle]

This stuff cracks me up because instead of trying to help someone some guys get all holier than thou about it. I don't know if it's trying to show off or what. Yes we know some of you were Seals and some were are LEO and some spend every waking moment at Front Sight. How about gearing answers to the OP's situation and not yours.

Condescending tone aside... If you read my posts, I am doing exactly what the OP asked for... giving an opinion about the weapon he has chosen, as well as benefits and attributes of the weapon.

At the end of the day, if you are buying a weapon for "home defense" then you are rogering up for a whole litany of important requirements. Knockdown power, darkened room capability, safe "ready" storage, low penetration to other rooms, ability to manipulate while groggy, muscle memory requirements and noise restrictions/considerations. And that is before you leave your room to "check on" something suspicious.

Once you leave the room, you need to learn how to clear a house properly, or you will become the target. Fatal funnels, dead space, order of operation, fields of fire etc... become very, VERY important when clearing a space. I feel very strongly that if you are buying a gun for this purpose, do what it takes to read about, get a video about or get training on this key aspect of the potential endeavor...

Or, take it out of your consideration matrix. As I said, if you are interested only in really ruining the day of rusted out car bodies... just buy something that won't blow up in your hand most of the time.

Home defense is tactical shooting at its most basic level. A tactically superior gun is going to be the weapon of choice in this situation. And back to the OP's question... it is near impossible to get a better gun for the purpose than a Sig. I don't shoot the .40 myself, as I prefer rounds that are issued by the government like the 9mm and .45 calibers (I own .45's personally and recommend them) but it is a good caliber for sure.

And very lastly, there is nothing that a cheaper gun can do better other than a Sig than be cheaper. Didn't sound like the primary concern though.

 

[VoodooMedMan]

Points taken however... Besides your tone... Read what you just wrote about clearing a house. Don't get me wrong the more training and practice the better. And perfect practice makes perfect. After everyone is asleep I will go commando around the house for a few. But for Pete's sake in how many robberies are dudes coming in from every single window and door and multiple guys where you need to practice like a Navy Seal would have to for house situations off in the Middle East. Usually 1 maybe two guys and you don't need to practice for every house. You need to practice for your house.

Condescending tone aside... If you read my posts, I am doing exactly what the OP asked for... giving an opinion about the weapon he has chosen, as well as benefits and attributes of the weapon.

At the end of the day, if you are buying a weapon for "home defense" then you are rogering up for a whole litany of important requirements. Knockdown power, darkened room capability, safe "ready" storage, low penetration to other rooms, ability to manipulate while groggy, muscle memory requirements and noise restrictions/considerations. And that is before you leave your room to "check on" something suspicious.

Once you leave the room, you need to learn how to clear a house properly, or you will become the target. Fatal funnels, dead space, order of operation, fields of fire etc... become very, VERY important when clearing a space. I feel very strongly that if you are buying a gun for this purpose, do what it takes to read about, get a video about or get training on this key aspect of the potential endeavor...

Or, take it out of your consideration matrix. As I said, if you are interested only in really ruining the day of rusted out car bodies... just buy something that won't blow up in your hand most of the time.

Home defense is tactical shooting at its most basic level. A tactically superior gun is going to be the weapon of choice in this situation. And back to the OP's question... it is near impossible to get a better gun for the purpose than a Sig. I don't shoot the .40 myself, as I prefer rounds that are issued by the government like the 9mm and .45 calibers (I own .45's personally and recommend them) but it is a good caliber for sure.

And very lastly, there is nothing that a cheaper gun can do better other than a Sig than be cheaper. Didn't sound like the primary concern though.

 

[Froggystyle]

Points taken however... Besides your tone... Read what you just wrote about clearing a house. Don't get me wrong the more training and practice the better. And perfect practice makes perfect. After everyone is asleep I will go commando around the house for a few. But for Pete's sake in how many robberies are dudes coming in from every single window and door and multiple guys where you need to practice like a Navy Seal would have to for house situations off in the Middle East. Usually 1 maybe two guys and you don't need to practice for every house. You need to practice for your house.

I would love to know how many people reading this thread... be honest... have ever considered the orbit they would take to do a one man clearance on their own house. More specifically... here is the question...

How many of you have practiced proper clearing of your own house, by yourself with a weapon?

My bet is, very few. I would really like you guys to be honest in your response as well... especially if your primary reason for a handgun purchase is home defense. BTW... I don't recommend a handgun for home defense, I recommend a shotgun.

The principle doesn't change... and once you know how to do yours properly, and the reason for the motions, you would know how to do essentially any properly. The area of suspicion is actually the last one you "clear" to ensure you aren't being pinched. You can't have someone behind you... period. Even if it adds 30 seconds, you absolutely need to clear and close doors behind you on your way to the threat.

And, I will make this offer... if anyone wants to PM me asking for help in the proper clearance technique for their own house, I will be happy to respond with the method. Draw the house, remedially if necessary, and include showers, door opening directions and closets. I will give you a path for clearance to ensure you are the safest and most effective... so the offer is out there folks...

 

[Mondorally]

I would love to know how many people reading this thread... be honest... have ever considered the orbit they would take to do a one man clearance on their own house. More specifically... here is the question...

How many of you have practiced proper clearing of your own house, by yourself with a weapon?

My bet is, very few. I would really like you guys to be honest in your response as well... especially if your primary reason for a handgun purchase is home defense. BTW... I don't recommend a handgun for home defense, I recommend a shotgun.

The principle doesn't change... and once you know how to do yours properly, and the reason for the motions, you would know how to do essentially any properly. The area of suspicion is actually the last one you "clear" to ensure you aren't being pinched. You can't have someone behind you... period. Even if it adds 30 seconds, you absolutely need to clear and close doors behind you on your way to the threat.

And, I will make this offer... if anyone wants to PM me asking for help in the proper clearance technique for their own house, I will be happy to respond with the method. Draw the house, remedially if necessary, and include showers, door opening directions and closets. I will give you a path for clearance to ensure you are the safest and most effective... so the offer is out there folks...

To answer your question.... No.... but I do go commando every night.

 

[HolyMoly]

How many of you have practiced proper clearing of your own house, by yourself with a weapon?


..

How many have practiced in low light to no light situations? How many have practiced in live fire situations, with strobe lights and sirens going on with additional shooting? How about in dead silence? How many know the proper light discipline in low light/no light situations? How many know a universal way to hold any flash light and shoot at the same time? How many know how to reload in the dark or clear malfunctions in the dark? How many know how to do it one handed?....off handed?

I practice regularly. I didn't even think about it before I went to Front Sight. After attending FS and doing some other tactical courses out there...I realized my house is a death trap...all houses are death traps.

But, defensive home training has different aspects to it than what they teach in the military. If I'm in my house alone...I ain't clearing my house! I'll wait for them to come to me...or better yet...get out! If someone is threatening my family in other rooms, I have been trained and practiced tactics. But tactics is more art than science. And different for home defense than for military and LEO. If the bad guy runs away from me...I AIN'T chasing him!

I'm starting my 9 year old on this training in March. I have taken my wife to a course, and she did well. Probably shoots better and has better/safer gun handling than most people on these boards. But, she does not wan't to do team tactics, so enter my 9 year old. He can already shoot a XD in 9mm pretty well!

Bottom line is actual training. And I think you started out the pissing match by basically telling people that go to ranges that their effort amounts to nothing more than masturbation. You haven't seen what many of us do at our ranges, and quite frankly, you probably would be out gunned by a few of us "Professional Civilians." I think River and I would be up for a little challenge.

 

[pronstar]

I used to shoot in my house all the time.

But then my dog started to make fun of me.