For Tom... Benghazi...

[Outdrive1]

Keep reasoning with him. I'm sure you'll be on the same page soon. :thumbsup


Obama could clear his throat and 500bbc would hear, "I'm a terrorist!" ... and you're trying to reason with him. You are the rosetta stone of optimism, my friend. :thumbsup

Good for you. No kidding. good for you. :cool

Fuck Brown.

 

[Tom Brown]

Do you guys have ANY idea how badly you ruin your own argument by describing people like this? Opposition or not, by describing the President, Secretary of State, Vice President etc... in this manner, it absolutely cuts your statements off at the knees, and reduces them to juvenile banter.

It is impossible to take someone's point seriously if you can't control your anger/disgust enough to make a point without casting aspersions...

It is one of the reasons I value OT's opinion more than most... it comes across as valid and well thought out... as opposed to locker room drivel

These guys come off like 4 year olds who didn't get their way. Waaaa, waaaaaaa!

They declared Obama a failed president before he took office. That is not hyperbole. Over on the PB.com forums, they blamed Obama for the economy in December of 2008. 30 days into his presidency, they were asking why he hasn't fixed the 10T deficit already. ... and they haven't gotten any more rational.

They have made it effortless for anyone not in their cult to disconnect from their background noise of hysterics and hyperbole. They misinterpret everything to the extreme, as evidenced by their clames of Obama ushering in an education secretary who was going to bring anal fisting kits into high schools. It made sense to them to say that.

They are broken people. Unlike others who are easy to pity, they are angry as hell. They come across like they are perpetually eating a shit sandwich that was warmed on the exhaust manifold of a car and subsequently fell in a puddle as the car drove away from where they picked it up and started plowing it in. They are easy to mock. They're the neighborhood dogs who bark like they've caught someone is stealing their buried bone, every time they hear the slightest noise.

I'm pretty sure many of those dogs bark when they hear noise because they're scared. It's their fight response. I think the same goes here. These guys are scared. They can see their country slipping down a hill and into a pit of garbage. I agree with them, in this regard. The difference being, I don't need to make up a boogie man and then blame everything on the boogie man.

That's what Obama is. A boogie man. He is their vessel of hate. Everything that goes wrong... ever... Obama.

Pretty much everyone is broken, in one way or another. I shouldn't mock these guys. It's not right.

500bbc, regor, Old Texan, paul, mandella, et al.... I am sorry. I am sincerely sorry for rattling your cage so frequently over the years. This is sincere.

If you'd like to know my Achilles heel, and how I'm broken, it's that I enjoy holding a steak just out of reach of the guard dog. I enjoy making you look like savages. ... and that is why I'm going to continue to do it. ... because I'm broken. It's the cross I bear.

 

[was thatguy]

TB, you seem pretty proud to have Froggy backing you up.
That's understandable.
But damn dude....at least stop and take a breath.

You said that given several pages you could present an ironclad argument that the earth is flat.
Given that, how can anything you say be taken as other than argument or conjecture?
Especially when you modify your arguments so as to keep a "prize" on your so called side.
(So called because being a non voter and foreigner really sort of renders you without a "side". )

I do know this. The day Havasu 1986 "Thanks" a post of mine is the day I question my position.

 

[regor]

These guys come off like 4 year olds who didn't get their way. Waaaa, waaaaaaa!

They declared Obama a failed president before he took office. That is not hyperbole. Over on the PB.com forums, they blamed Obama for the economy in December of 2008. 30 days into his presidency, they were asking why he hasn't fixed the 10T deficit already. ... and they haven't gotten any more rational.

They have made it effortless for anyone not in their cult to disconnect from their background noise of hysterics and hyperbole. They misinterpret everything to the extreme, as evidenced by their clames of Obama ushering in an education secretary who was going to bring anal fisting kits into high schools. It made sense to them to say that.

They are broken people. Unlike others who are easy to pity, they are angry as hell. They come across like they are perpetually eating a shit sandwich that was warmed on the exhaust manifold of a car and subsequently fell in a puddle as the car drove away from where they picked it up and started plowing it in. They are easy to mock. They're the neighborhood dogs who bark like they've caught someone is stealing their buried bone, every time they hear the slightest noise.

I'm pretty sure many of those dogs bark when they hear noise because they're scared. It's their fight response. I think the same goes here. These guys are scared. They can see their country slipping down a hill and into a pit of garbage. I agree with them, in this regard. The difference being, I don't need to make up a boogie man and then blame everything on the boogie man.

That's what Obama is. A boogie man. He is their vessel of hate. Everything that goes wrong... ever... Obama.

Pretty much everyone is broken, in one way or another. I shouldn't mock these guys. It's not right.

500bbc, regor, Old Texan, paul, mandella, et al.... I am sorry. I am sincerely sorry for rattling your cage so frequently over the years. This is sincere.

If you'd like to know my Achilles heel, and how I'm broken, it's that I enjoy holding a steak just out of reach of the guard dog. I enjoy making you look like savages. ... and that is why I'm going to continue to do it. ... because I'm broken. It's the cross I bear.

Brown, your wrong. I gave the pimp a chance and if you noticed, I didn't join this playground until 2010. I don't blame him for everything, he inherited an absolute shithole. Don't apologize, we enjoy rattling that fucked up legend in your own mind cage also.

 

[Tom Brown]

I do know this. The day Havasu 1986 "Thanks" a post of mine is the day I question my position.

I believe Havasu1986 to be a good man. I'm talking about a solid, good to the core, individual. At least, I have no evidence to the contrary.

I also believe you to be a good man, in the very same way.

... and yet you are mortal enemies based on some abstract philosophical bullshit. I know you believe passionately in your politics. Everyone does. You love your country. You love your life. You don't want to see it damaged and you want to defend it. I admire all of these things and consider them one of the signs of being a good man.

Keep on hatin'. It's going to make the world, and your life, a better place. lol! :thumbsup

 

[Froggystyle]

Your right. Goodbye.

It's "Yoar"

 

[Froggystyle]

Brown, your wrong.

It's "Yoar"..

...And nearly sig-worthy I might add due to the strong irony...

 

[500bbc]

Do you guys have ANY idea how badly you ruin your own argument by describing people like this? Opposition or not, by describing the President, Secretary of State, Vice President etc... in this manner, it absolutely cuts your statements off at the knees, and reduces them to juvenile banter.

It is impossible to take someone's point seriously if you can't control your anger/disgust enough to make a point without casting aspersions...

It is one of the reasons I value OT's opinion more than most... it comes across as valid and well thought out... as opposed to locker room drivel

If Tom Brown doesn't engage in fecal tainted mental masturbation well, no one does.

Have you ever seen Candy Crowley?:rolleyes

 

[500bbc]

These guys come off like 4 year olds who didn't get their way. Waaaa, waaaaaaa!

They declared Obama a failed president before he took office. That is not hyperbole. Over on the PB.com forums, they blamed Obama for the economy in December of 2008. 30 days into his presidency, they were asking why he hasn't fixed the 10T deficit already. ... and they haven't gotten any more rational.

They have made it effortless for anyone not in their cult to disconnect from their background noise of hysterics and hyperbole. They misinterpret everything to the extreme, as evidenced by their clames of Obama ushering in an education secretary who was going to bring anal fisting kits into high schools. It made sense to them to say that.

They are broken people. Unlike others who are easy to pity, they are angry as hell. They come across like they are perpetually eating a shit sandwich that was warmed on the exhaust manifold of a car and subsequently fell in a puddle as the car drove away from where they picked it up and started plowing it in. They are easy to mock. They're the neighborhood dogs who bark like they've caught someone is stealing their buried bone, every time they hear the slightest noise.

I'm pretty sure many of those dogs bark when they hear noise because they're scared. It's their fight response. I think the same goes here. These guys are scared. They can see their country slipping down a hill and into a pit of garbage. I agree with them, in this regard. The difference being, I don't need to make up a boogie man and then blame everything on the boogie man.

That's what Obama is. A boogie man. He is their vessel of hate. Everything that goes wrong... ever... Obama.

Pretty much everyone is broken, in one way or another. I shouldn't mock these guys. It's not right.

500bbc, regor, Old Texan, paul, mandella, et al.... I am sorry. I am sincerely sorry for rattling your cage so frequently over the years. This is sincere.

If you'd like to know my Achilles heel, and how I'm broken, it's that I enjoy holding a steak just out of reach of the guard dog. I enjoy making you look like savages. ... and that is why I'm going to continue to do it. ... because I'm broken. It's the cross I bear.

oint:rotflmao: More FTMM ehh Tom?

Have a great weekend!

 

[Paul65k]

These guys come off like 4 year olds who didn't get their way. Waaaa, waaaaaaa!

They declared Obama a failed president before he took office. That is not hyperbole. Over on the PB.com forums, they blamed Obama for the economy in December of 2008. 30 days into his presidency, they were asking why he hasn't fixed the 10T deficit already. ... and they haven't gotten any more rational.

They have made it effortless for anyone not in their cult to disconnect from their background noise of hysterics and hyperbole. They misinterpret everything to the extreme, as evidenced by their clames of Obama ushering in an education secretary who was going to bring anal fisting kits into high schools. It made sense to them to say that.

They are broken people. Unlike others who are easy to pity, they are angry as hell. They come across like they are perpetually eating a shit sandwich that was warmed on the exhaust manifold of a car and subsequently fell in a puddle as the car drove away from where they picked it up and started plowing it in. They are easy to mock. They're the neighborhood dogs who bark like they've caught someone is stealing their buried bone, every time they hear the slightest noise.

I'm pretty sure many of those dogs bark when they hear noise because they're scared. It's their fight response. I think the same goes here. These guys are scared. They can see their country slipping down a hill and into a pit of garbage. I agree with them, in this regard. The difference being, I don't need to make up a boogie man and then blame everything on the boogie man.

That's what Obama is. A boogie man. He is their vessel of hate. Everything that goes wrong... ever... Obama.

Pretty much everyone is broken, in one way or another. I shouldn't mock these guys. It's not right.

500bbc, regor, Old Texan, paul, mandella, et al.... I am sorry. I am sincerely sorry for rattling your cage so frequently over the years. This is sincere.

If you'd like to know my Achilles heel, and how I'm broken, it's that I enjoy holding a steak just out of reach of the guard dog. I enjoy making you look like savages. ... and that is why I'm going to continue to do it. ... because I'm broken. It's the cross I bear.

You know I actually do my best to present a point of view based on facts and deplore calling people names (other than in jest) Interesting that you haven't noticed.....but then again I chalk this up to your looking to drive the discourse forward. If you were to take a minute and look back at some of the classic P&G threads I have always gone out of my way to try and act this way even when others (on both sides) and determined to land on a particular side (facts be damned).

The only time I ever "Cut and Paste" in this forum is when I'm trying to get a conversation started but I always make this clear and try to give credit to the source....so please don't be so quick to lump people in a particular pile or a consistent type of behavior as this causes you to be guilty of the very type of behavior of which you accuse others.

So.......................................thank you for listening and making the appropriate modification in your attitude moving forward and in closing I say with all due respect simply................... "FUCK BROWN"!!!:finger

 

[was thatguy]

It's "Yoar"..

...And nearly sig-worthy I might add due to the strong irony...

Yore?

Eh??

 

[regor]

It's "Yoar"..

...And nearly sig-worthy I might add due to the strong irony...

Damn, that is sig worthy

 

[Tom Brown]

This is one of those times, Tom, when you should probably say nothing.

Actually, Tom B thrives on that shit and nurtures it.

TB, you seem pretty proud to have Froggy backing you up.

Tommy, if you spent less time explaining to people what I'm thinking, what my position is, and trying to manage my emotions, you might have a clue what's going on. What's more, you'd probably come across like less of a know all douche.

Just sayin'.

 

[was thatguy]

Tommy, if you spent less time explaining to people what I'm thinking, what my position is, and trying to manage my emotions, you might have a clue what's going on. What's more, you'd probably come across like less of a know all douche.

Just sayin'.

Sorry Tom, I know the circular MO you employ!!

Did you not see my instructional post on "how to respond to Tom Brown and cause him to lose his faculties"?
You and I both know its my job!

yellow smilies

 

[Froggystyle]

You know I actually do my best to present a point of view based on facts and deplore calling people names (other than in jest) Interesting that you haven't noticed.....

You will notice that I didn't quote you.

I thought you were on my side this whole time.

And as we all know in here... If you are on "my side", you can be wrong, a liar, deceitful and collaborating and I will still defend you, and suggest it is someone else's fault in the first place.

 

[Paul65k]

You will notice that I didn't quote you.

I thought you were on my side this whole time.

And as we all know in here... If you are on "my side", you can be wrong, a liar, deceitful and collaborating and I will still defend you, and suggest it is someone else's fault in the first place.

Thanks Wes........I'd like to think I have your back too.

I very much appreciate your opinion and your service :thumbsup

BTW....I was responding to Brown.....not you.

 

[regor]

What specifically was unconstitutional with what happened in Benghazi?

Nothing is unconstitutional about "what" happened. We are on to the "investigation" of what happened and "how" that is handled.

You will notice that I didn't quote you.

I thought you were on my side this whole time.

And as we all know in here... If you are on "my side", you can be wrong, a liar, deceitful and collaborating and I will still defend you, and suggest it is someone else's fault in the first place.

:grumble:................:finger

I still need an answer to this Froggy. Essentially, you're saying to let it go and take the word of the Pres as the end all? For some reason, I'm thinking the constitution wouldn't agree with that.

 

[Old Texan]

James Lewis is viewed by many as deeply anti-O and I'm sure is the "wingnut" type our Canadian "wingnut" condemns the right about, but here is his theory and what many believe to be the direction the current admin is heading.....Take it as you will, it's an opinion. But an opinion that leaves many with a feeling of unease.

Do I believe all that's said? Hard to do without making many assumptions. But it backs my wish that we leave the ME to fend for itself and allow them to destroy themselves on their own without US money and blood. But we won't because we're hooked by the Saudi's more than we're hooked by the Chinese. If anyone has heard about the Sadara project they'll understand just how much this nation's business sector is investing in Saudi and how to myself and others the Saudis' are our real enemy/worry.

Do your own research and form you own opinions. Believe nothing you read without you own research, but at least explore and understand what is happening that isn't on the nightly news. Understanding Sadara and Saudi influence and how much is being committed to it is a good place to start. We're tying ourselves financially to the Saudis' in my opinion and this is not good for the long term health of the nation.

Dangerous Times: Benghazi Revealed Collusion with Al Qaida
By James Lewis




All scandals have layers of meaning. Watergate was about a second-rate burglary, but more importantly, it was about Richard M. Nixon's abuse of presidential power.

However, much of that message was ruined by the fact that Lyndon B. Johnson abused power as much as Nixon did. Because Nixon is still a convenient whipping boy for the left, we never hear about LBJ's sins.

Twenty years before Watergate, Nixon was engaged in a brutal battle with the Stalinist left of the 1950s. Watergate "gave the left a sword," as Nixon famously said. The Washington Post assaulted the Nixon presidency in collusion with Mark Felt (Deep Throat), who hated Nixon for passing him up for FBI director.

Watergate was therefore a major battle in the long war between the radical left and mainstream America.

Like Watergate, Benghazi has several layers. But the most revealing one is the active collusion between this administration and Al Qaida.

Al Qaida is a Saudi-inspired and Saudi-funded terror gang. Almost all of the terrorists on 9/11 were Saudis. Those facts are always covered up, but they are crucial to understanding the Jihad War.

In Benghazi we ran arms from Libya to Al Qaida rebels in Syria. The Saudis are funding that rebellion.

There's that Saudi link again.

In Egypt we backed the Muslim Brotherhood against Hosni Mubarak, who kept the peace treaty with Israel for 30 years. Thirty years of peace in the Middle East is a huge achievement. The Muslim Brotherhood assassinated Anwar Sadat the peacemaker, one of the rare Arab moderates who saw the light. Today we are in league with those who assassinated Anwar Sadat. For shame.

Today Egypt is starving, and the people hate the new regime.

The Saudis are naturally on the side of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood because they share the Sunni war theology.

So the Saudis have won again, with Obama acting as their American errand boy.

In Libya, we again made common cause with Sunni radicals against Muammar Gadaffi, a real nutcase, but a man who was able to run Libya's tribal federation for years. Gadaffi had turned over his nuclear program to the George W. Bush Administration. We still betrayed him to support his enemies, and Libya is in a civil war even now.

Again, the Muslim radicals won.

The bottom line is that Obama has consistently supported the most radical Muslim elements in the Middle East.

But we never supported the young people of the democratic Green Revolution against the vicious mullah regime in Iran. When Obama first met Benyamin Netanyahu he acted like an abusive bully.

Obama only bows down to Third World reactionaries.

That is consistent with his extreme leftist ideology. It also fits the worldwide left-Muslim alliance that has made Israel and the U.S. the targets of the most vicious hate campaign since World War II. Check MEMRI.org if you doubt it.

Obama may not be committing technical treason.

But he is a revolutionary, and so are all his friends.

For people like him, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. The war theology of Islam is therefore his friend.

The biggest danger revealed by Benghazi is Obama's ruthlessly radical policies and actions. He is a trickster. Everything he does aims to undermine the legitimacy of our institutions: DOJ, IRS, FBI, EPA, the Education Department and the rest. As long as Obama is president those agencies cannot be trusted.

Therefore the most dangerous meaning of Benghazi is its betrayal of our fundamental values and allegiances.

By now we should know who Obama really is. It is hard to face, because we want our presidents to represent American values. Obama does not believe in those values.

The most important fact Benghazi revealed is Obama's collusion with Al Qaida.

That is why it had to be covered up.


Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2013...ed_collusion_with_al_qaida.html#ixzz2Uy5DvWJ9
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook

 

[squeezer]

James Lewis is viewed by many as deeply anti-O and I'm sure is the "wingnut" type our Canadian "wingnut" condemns the right about, but here is his theory and what many believe to be the direction the current admin is heading.....Take it as you will, it's an opinion. But an opinion that leaves many with a feeling of unease.

Do I believe all that's said? Hard to do without making many assumptions. But it backs my wish that we leave the ME to fend for itself and allow them to destroy themselves on their own without US money and blood. But we won't because we're hooked by the Saudi's more than we're hooked by the Chinese. If anyone has heard about the Sadara project they'll understand just how much this nation's business sector is investing in Saudi and how to myself and others the Saudis' are our real enemy/worry.

Do your own research and form you own opinions. Believe nothing you read without you own research, but at least explore and understand what is happening that isn't on the nightly news. Understanding Sadara and Saudi influence and how much is being committed to it is a good place to start. We're tying ourselves financially to the Saudis' in my opinion and this is not good for the long term health of the nation.

Dammit Texi... The idea that we are connected with the Saudis in a manner that is inappropriate at best... is ANOTHER thing we agree on!!! I think you are seeing the light.

For extra points somebody document for me how our relationship with them has changed from this administration to the last one... Or any of the previous 10 administrations for that matter.

And while researching that go ahead and find out who holds the 2nd largest amount of voting stock in News Corp...

 

[Old Texan]

Dammit Texi... The idea that we are connected with the Saudis in a manner that is inappropriate at best... is ANOTHER thing we agree on!!! I think you are seeing the light.

For extra points somebody document for me how our relationship with them has changed from this administration to the last one... Or any of the previous 10 administrations for that matter.

And while researching that go ahead and find out who holds the 2nd largest amount of voting stock in News Corp...

I've been seeing the light for a long time.......You just never paid close enough attention to me apparently.


We're chasing business out of the country and it has to go somewhere. But it's deeper than that as I believe you know. One of the big things that's made this country great is the technology we develop. Now the rights to that technology is going to be owned by others who really aren't our friends. Sadara is claimed to be potentially the largest petrochem complex on earth when it's done. The technological advances garnered there will be the property of the Saudis' most likely. Our multinational corps are being reduced to mercenary status.

The US will become a bedroom nation if these type of projects continue in the ME and in SE Asia/China. We're selling out right in plain sight.....They no longer need to steal our technology, we're pretty much giving it to them at wholesale prices. The gripe of many has been how few if any refineries have been built stateside over the last couple decades. Well guess where the new ones are being built and who will now control not only the feedstock, but the end product. Even if we're "partners", it's all on their property. Shrink the military and we'll have completely lost all control. But that's just radical conspiracy theory......Or is it?

Just an old man's opinion.:cool

 

[Froggystyle]

...Do I believe all that's said? Hard to do without making many assumptions.

...Do your own research and form you own opinions.

I don't believe ANYTHING I read from the White House/Congress and disagree with most I read from the Courts.

If they explained it/didn't explain it doesn't matter. It's like a cat that's always on the wrong side of a glass door. Makes no difference if they are right or wrong, you just want it different.

In my opinion, I have never seen any good come of bitching. If I were Republican, I would be going WELL out of my way to separate myself from the bullshit right wing and all of its stereotypes and mannerisms. I would stop listening to talk radio, I would stop watching TV. I would take an event like Benghazi and learn everything I could about it, and say nothing. I would do the same with the IRS etc...

And I would wait. I would let the machine go unchecked.

In 3 years, I would bring "new" and fresh FACTS to light. I would show that while the Dems were going amok, wrecking the Constitution, taking away rights in favor of large Government, taxing us to the extreme etc...

I would have credibility, because people wouldn't have heard me bitching for the last eight years. I would never say I told you so, or quote myself from six years prior.

I wouldn't gloat.

I would provide an option to what is going on. I would do my best not to look partisan, and do my best to look productive.

Which is exactly what I am doing.

 

[regor]

I don't believe ANYTHING I read from the White House/Congress and disagree with most I read from the Courts.

If they explained it/didn't explain it doesn't matter. It's like a cat that's always on the wrong side of a glass door. Makes no difference if they are right or wrong, you just want it different.

In my opinion, I have never seen any good come of bitching. If I were Republican, I would be going WELL out of my way to separate myself from the bullshit right wing and all of its stereotypes and mannerisms. I would stop listening to talk radio, I would stop watching TV. I would take an event like Benghazi and learn everything I could about it, and say nothing. I would do the same with the IRS etc...

And I would wait. I would let the machine go unchecked.

In 3 years, I would bring "new" and fresh FACTS to light. I would show that while the Dems were going amok, wrecking the Constitution, taking away rights in favor of large Government, taxing us to the extreme etc...

I would have credibility, because people wouldn't have heard me bitching for the last eight years. I would never say I told you so, or quote myself from six years prior.

I wouldn't gloat.

I would provide an option to what is going on. I would do my best not to look partisan, and do my best to look productive.

Which is exactly what I am doing.

I get that philosophy, but here is the problem with it. Had the Republicans taken that approach, the 2010 mid term elections would have left the Dems in control of all three branches and they would have been able to continue passing bills, in order to see what was in them. :rolleyes

The administration saw the looming threat of the tea party and decided to take illegal action against them (IRS). To allow them to run free for 8 years, would be insane.

 

[Froggystyle]

I get that philosophy, but here is the problem with it. Had the Republicans taken that approach, the 2010 mid term elections would have left the Dems in control of all three branches and they would have been able to continue passing bills, in order to see what was in them. :rolleyes

The administration saw the looming threat of the tea party and decided to take illegal action against them (IRS). To allow them to run free for 8 years, would be insane.

They wouldn't have made it four.

They would have easily buried themselves in two. They had control of all three branches in 2008. They fucked up the first two years so badly the house flopped.

Keep being professional, stop sounding like whiney bitches ALL THE TIME, get back to work and make the best of it.

It's like the kid who cried wolf... Nobody gives a shit what Rush Limbaugh says in 08 and 12 because he has devalued his opinion... Right or wrong. He comes off as worst case scenario for anyone listening. I would vote for Kerry, Clinton and Obama before I voted for Limbaugh.

If Reps would shut up for a few, do some work, make some money and more importantly find a centrist candidate that at least all Republicans will vote for... Something could be done in 2016

 

[regor]

They wouldn't have made it four.

Come on, that's a huge assumption with this electorate Froggy.

The Rep's need to communicate their message a hell of a lot better, that's for sure. The whole Rep National Committee should be canned, most notably Reince Priebus and then gas Karl Rove.

 

[squeezer]

...The Rep's need to communicate their message a hell of a lot better, that's for sure.

In all seriousness, and politics aside just for a second.(We can resume bashing shortly) What is the republican message right now?

 

[regor]

In all seriousness, and politics aside just for a second.(We can resume bashing shortly) What is the republican message right now?

Who knows, hence the firing of Reince Priebus.

If I was in charge it would be........If you work, you're on our side. Let's get these lying, cheating, constitution stomping bastards out of the White House. :eek

The problem with that, a big block of the electorate doesn't want to work. It's a tough sell right now and I think the only way to beat them, is to expose the corruption.

 

[Froggystyle]

Come on, that's a huge assumption with this electorate Froggy.

The Rep's need to communicate their message a hell of a lot better, that's for sure. The whole Rep National Committee should be canned, most notably Reince Priebus and then gas Karl Rove.

Again, not to contrary... But I disagree.

The Republican message is flawed. The "base" is a small minority. They won't win with this "electorate" because the MAJORITY doesn't agree with them, their message or their fundamentalist religious and conservative message.

Ask 50% of all Republicans and 50% of all Democrats if they wish there was a more centrist candidate and they would vote for them. The 25% on the edges are the only ones campaigning because they have the most to lose.

Meaning... 50% of the population is unhappy regardless of candidate elected... Even if they voted for the winner. A different 50% is unhappy because "their" candidate lost.

Essentially, I believe 25% or less feel like they won in any given cycle. This will have to change.

A third party, or a massive departure from the right or left will be what it takes.

Smaller government, lower or flat taxes, more spiritual and social (or lack of) liberties, no public health care, massive reduction in welfare, but larger budget for rehabilitation and treatment, increased funding for DMV and public projects through better allocation of funds, increase of taxes for overseas corporations importing to US, decrease of taxes for those staying or coming back, tort reform, reduction of college scholarship funding, but increase in college budgets and grants to reduce tuition costs for all. Huge increase in the price of overseas tuition, but citizenship (at any level) for any college graduate.

That platform gets 65% of the vote. And it doesn't matter which party does it.

 

[Froggystyle]

's a tough sell right now and I think the only way to beat them, is to expose the corruption.

You are going to convince someone that is scamming the welfare system that corruption, that they don't understand, is bad?

 

[squeezer]

...The problem with that, a big block of the electorate doesn't want to work.

I see this type of statement thrown out there a lot and have never seen any facts that back it up.

Who is this big block of electorate you are talking about?

A few numbers we can throw out there:

Unemployment rate is officially 8% or so. (We can all agree that is lower than the actual situation on the street but lets let that number stand for this discussion.)

59% of American are employed.

13% are at or above retirement age.

There is some overlap between these groups of course but calling it close to 70% is close for now.

So this "Big Block" of electorate is carved out of the remaining 30%. Since the premise of this conversation is its all the fault of the folks who are able to but are unwilling to work we cant include the 90% of welfare recipients who are working/retired/disabled now can we... So what are we left with?? A maximum of 10% of the 30% for a whopping 3% total...

Lets agree that the number couldn't possibly be that low... How on earth could such a small block of people have such a huge amount of financial and political influence. I imagine it would be possible for a very small percentage of Americans to have a disproportionate amount of influence on our politics and economy but they would have to have a huge amount of financial resources to command that type of influence... (Oh wait a minute... nevermind!)

 

[Froggystyle]

I see this type of statement thrown out there a lot and have never seen any facts that back it up.

Who is this big block of electorate you are talking about?

A few numbers we can throw out there:

Unemployment rate is officially 8% or so. (We can all agree that is lower than the actual situation on the street but lets let that number stand for this discussion.)

59% of American are employed.

13% are at or above retirement age.

There is some overlap between these groups of course but calling it close to 70% is close for now.

So this "Big Block" of electorate is carved out of the remaining 30%. Since the premise of this conversation is its all the fault of the folks who are able to but are unwilling to work we cant include the 90% of welfare recipients who are working/retired/disabled now can we... So what are we left with?? A maximum of 10% of the 30% for a whopping 3% total...

Lets agree that the number couldn't possibly be that low... How on earth could such a small block of people have such a huge amount of financial and political influence. I imagine it would be possible for a very small percentage of Americans to have a disproportionate amount of influence on our politics and economy but they would have to have a huge amount of financial resources to command that type of influence... (Oh wait a minute... nevermind!)

Post of the day...

The reality is, that begrudgingly, 50% of the voters are party biased, if not based. The 3... Call it 6% of the people above are the deciding factor in this case. The number of people that had never voted before that Obama brought out to the polls (good for him... Reps ignored them) decided both elections.

 

[regor]

Again, not to contrary... But I disagree.

The Republican message is flawed. The "base" is a small minority. They won't win with this "electorate" because the MAJORITY doesn't agree with them, their message or their fundamentalist religious and conservative message.

Ask 50% of all Republicans and 50% of all Democrats if they wish there was a more centrist candidate and they would vote for them. The 25% on the edges are the only ones campaigning because they have the most to lose.

Meaning... 50% of the population is unhappy regardless of candidate elected... Even if they voted for the winner. A different 50% is unhappy because "their" candidate lost.

Essentially, I believe 25% or less feel like they won in any given cycle. This will have to change.

A third party, or a massive departure from the right or left will be what it takes.

Smaller government, lower or flat taxes, more spiritual and social (or lack of) liberties, no public health care, massive reduction in welfare, but larger budget for rehabilitation and treatment, increased funding for DMV and public projects through better allocation of funds, increase of taxes for overseas corporations importing to US, decrease of taxes for those staying or coming back, tort reform, reduction of college scholarship funding, but increase in college budgets and grants to reduce tuition costs for all. Huge increase in the price of overseas tuition, but citizenship (at any level) for any college graduate.

That platform gets 65% of the vote. And it doesn't matter which party does it.

I agree with this direction for sure but, you may have a difficulty in getting the message out. I think eventually, the MSM would get on board and support it. I still don't see where it would benefit the country, to allow the Dem's to continue their ways without calling attention to it. I will say this, you and Brown have valid points, in regard to the continual bashing by the Republicans, but to let it go without calling attention to it, is insanity IMO. I do it because the blatant corruption and breaking of laws by politicians pisses me off and I like a good heated debate.

You are going to convince someone that is scamming the welfare system that corruption, that they don't understand, is bad?

No way, it would be targeting people on the left with a slither of intelligence.

 

[squeezer]

Post of the day...

The reality is, that begrudgingly, 50% of the voters are party biased, if not based. The 3... Call it 6% of the people above are the deciding factor in this case. The number of people that had never voted before that Obama brought out to the polls (good for him... Reps ignored them) decided both elections.

Bingo...

And here is the other half of that story. Obama and the Democrats are working (or at least talking about trying to put a plan together to possibly start working...:cool) on doing something to change the living conditions of that 6%. While the Republicans are busily trying to push policy that make their lives worse. Hell the thread right above/below this one right now is singing the praises of a guy who thinks its a good idea to take away their right to vote...

President Obama did not create the poverty problem in this country he inherited it. Much like Bush did before him and Clinton did before him. We had a meaningful shift in the poverty level in the early 60's (corresponding with some strong social programs) but not any huge shift from administration to administration since then. Nobody on the right is talking about any meaningful solutions to this and many of them, notably the failed presidential candidate, are busy blaming the poor for this countries financial problems.

 

[Froggystyle]

The time and place is in the primaries, and not for a couple of years. All of the proverbial wads will be shot by then, and election mania will come down to what happened this week, which will be written off as political posturing.

Imagine getting hit with Benghazi's facts in 2015 if you are Hillary running for president. And the IRS... Etc.

 

[regor]

I see this type of statement thrown out there a lot and have never seen any facts that back it up.

Who is this big block of electorate you are talking about?

A few numbers we can throw out there:

Unemployment rate is officially 8% or so. (We can all agree that is lower than the actual situation on the street but lets let that number stand for this discussion.)

59% of American are employed.

13% are at or above retirement age.

There is some overlap between these groups of course but calling it close to 70% is close for now.

So this "Big Block" of electorate is carved out of the remaining 30%. Since the premise of this conversation is its all the fault of the folks who are able to but are unwilling to work we cant include the 90% of welfare recipients who are working/retired/disabled now can we... So what are we left with?? A maximum of 10% of the 30% for a whopping 3% total...

Lets agree that the number couldn't possibly be that low... How on earth could such a small block of people have such a huge amount of financial and political influence. I imagine it would be possible for a very small percentage of Americans to have a disproportionate amount of influence on our politics and economy but they would have to have a huge amount of financial resources to command that type of influence... (Oh wait a minute... nevermind!)

2012
Total number of Americans on food stamps-46,700,000
Total number of Americans on welfare-4,300,000

Granted, there are some that want to work and not live as peasants, who did vote for Romney. You need 9.74% of this electorate to even up the popular vote. The Dem's did a much better job at getting this, as Froggy mentioned, but then again, it's a lot easier when you're given them free cheese.

Popular vote
Obama-65,899,660
Romney-60,932,152

 

[squeezer]

2012
Total number of Americans on food stamps-46,700,000
Total number of Americans on welfare-4,300,000

Granted, there are some that want to work and not live as peasants, who did vote for Romney. You need 9.74% of this electorate to even up the popular vote. The Dem's did a much better job at getting this, as Froggy mentioned, but then again, it's a lot easier when you're given them free cheese.

Popular vote
Obama-65,899,660
Romney-60,932,152

Numbers... I love numbers!

Looking at food stamp use by State:

http://chartsbin.com/view/1403

There are 12 states that have food stamp usage between 16-20%

Then looking at Electoral college returns:

http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/2012/results

7 of those 12 states went for Romney

If you look at the 14.8% food stamp usage category in the first link its even more biased towards welfare usage in red states.


In fact the top 10 welfare states are red states: (Dollars received per dollar paid to federal government)

Mississippi: $2.02
Alaska: $1.84
Louisiana: $1.78
West Virginia: $1.76
North Dakota: $1.68
Alabama: $1.66
South Dakota: $1.53
Kentucky: $1.51
Virginia: $1.51
Montana: $1.47
Arkansas: $1.41
Oklahoma: $1.36



Pretty much making you line of reasoning a bit misinformed...


The idea that Democrats are the welfare abusers is strait up false.

 

[regor]

Numbers... I love numbers!

Looking at food stamp use by State:

http://chartsbin.com/view/1403

There are 12 states that have food stamp usage between 16-20%

Then looking at Electoral college returns:

http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/2012/results

7 of those 12 states went for Romney

If you look at the 14.8% food stamp usage category in the first link its even more biased towards welfare usage in red states.


In fact the top 10 welfare states are red states: (Dollars received per dollar paid to federal government)

Mississippi: $2.02
Alaska: $1.84
Louisiana: $1.78
West Virginia: $1.76
North Dakota: $1.68
Alabama: $1.66
South Dakota: $1.53
Kentucky: $1.51
Virginia: $1.51
Montana: $1.47
Arkansas: $1.41
Oklahoma: $1.36



Pretty much making you line of reasoning a bit misinformed...


The idea that Democrats are the welfare abusers is strait up false.

That's a good try. I think you have a valid point, but next time, use data that is a little more current than Feb 2011. This is August 29, 2012 from foodstamps.org

1. Mississippi-Red
2. Oregon-Blue
3. Tennessee-Red
4. New Mexico-Blue
5. Michigan-Blue

3 of the top 5 is a far cry from the top ten, come on Squeeze.

That statement in bold is complete BS IMO, could be wrong, but I doubt it.

 

[thetub]

SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEze there you go again playing gorilla math....




Top 15 Welfare States: 13-of-the-15 are Democrat States
Posted on November 29, 2011 by UnPoliticallyCorrect

Interesting: CNBC published the top 15 states in the Nation that consume the MOST in welfare. 13-of-15 are DEMOCRAT states; they went Blue in 2008.

The BIGGEST US WELFARE STATES

?Year Researched Data???2009????-2007????2008???-2009

State??-% of Pop on Welfare??Spending on Welfare?-Total on Welfare??Unemp

#1. California?????3.30%??????$3.28 BILLION???..1,212,893??.11.5%

#2. Maine??????..2.37%??????.$61.73 MILLION???..31,148???.8.3%

#3. Tennessee????.2.15%?????..$91.28 MILLION???.133,505???.10.7%

#4. Massachusetts??.2.09%?????.$295.29 MILLION???136,033???8.2%

#5. Vermont?????.2.02%?????..$30.92 MILLION???..12,543??..7.3%

#6. Wash DC????..1.99%??????.$18.67 MILLION???..11,806???..10.7%

#7. New York????..1.92%??????$1.47 BILLION????..373,305???8.2%

#8. Minnesota????..1.88%??????$106.29 MILLION???98,028??.8.2%

#9. Washington????1.86%??????$265.88 MILLION??121,864??..9.4%

#10. New Mexico???.1.83%??????$58.87 MILLION??.36,322????..6.5%

#11. Indiana?????..1.83%??????..$102.27 MILLION?..116,430???.10.6%

#12. Rhode Island??..1.79%??????.$57.4 MILLION????..18,839????..12.1%

#13. Michigan????..1.60%??????..$380.93 MILLION???.164,589???14.1%

#14.Pennsylvania???.1.60%??????$247.29 MILLION???198,666????8.2%

#15. Oregon?????.1.55%???????.$83.85 MILLION???.58,831????.12.4%

http://www.cnbc.com/id/31910310?slide=15

 

[Tom Brown]

It's no surprise to see California at the top, as it has the largest population. It is also the top tax revenue producing state.

Where's The Doctor when you need him to provide a clean audit to your cooked books.

Anyone notice the most population dense areas tend to be the most democratic while the lowest population densities tend to be republican?

 

[Tom Brown]

The point here is that people in Republican states do worse, on average, than people in Democratic states.

Interestingly, Democrats control many of the seaboard states. These states have a clear geographic advantage as they have access to international trade and there are efficiencies to be gained from higher population density.

Still, if you are looking for cheap real estate somewhere, open up an election map and search the red states. That's where the deals are.

Why aren't the Republican states more affluent, given the Republican "open for business" mantra? Surely some of them are governed well and using Republican ideals.

 

[thetub]

throw in disability and its even worse


Welfare State Explosion: Food Stamps Skyrocket, Disability Hits All-Time High

Kyle Becker | On 06, Feb 2013

the-welfare-state-obama-2012-election-economy-politics-1344468092

Under the president?s FY2013 budget proposal, means-tested spending would increase an additional 30% over the next four years. Such welfare spending refers to programs that provide low-income assistance in the form of direct or indirect financial support?such as food stamps, subsidized housing, child care, disability, etc.? which the recipient does not pay into (unlike Medicare or Social Security).

The total amount spent on federal welfare programs, when taken together with approximately $280 billion in state contributions, amounts to roughly $1 trillion. Nearly 95 percent of these costs come from four categories of spending: medical assistance, cash assistance, food assistance, and social/housing assistance.

Consider the following:

Disability recipients hit record for 192nd straight month. ?The number of American workers collecting federal disability payments climbed to yet another record high of 8,830,026 in January, up from 8,827,795 in December, according to newly released data from the Social Security Administration.? . (CNS)
Food stamps skyrocket as unemployment rates remain flat. ?From October 2009 to October 2012 the unemployment rate has declined from 10.2 percent to 7.9 percent [the same rate as January 2013]. In that same time frame, nearly ten million new recipients have been added to the food stamp rolls?? (Daily Caller)
Over 100 million Americans are receiving some form of welfare. (The Weekly Standard)
Welfare becoming more attractive than work. Total welfare spending in the U.S. (if converted into cash payments) equals approximately ?$168 per day for every household in poverty,? higher than the $137 median income per-day.? (Senate Budget Committee)

foodstamps vs payrolls As higher payroll taxes hit dismayed workers, and employers saddled with taxes, regulations, and Obamacare costs have to cut hours and staff, the result is reduced opportunity for all Americans.

The youth unemployment rate for 18-29 year olds specifically for January 2013 was 13.1 percent (Millenial Jobs Report).
?The youth unemployment rate for 18-29 year old African-Americans for January 2013 was 22.1 percent (NSA); the youth unemployment rate for 18-29 year old Hispanics for January 2013 was 13.0 percent (NSA); and the youth unemployment rate for 18?29 year old women for January 2013 was 11.6 percent? (Millenial Jobs Report).
Even as 157,000 jobs were added to the economy, the labor force participation rate remained at a thirty-year low of 63.6% in January 2013. (Zerohedge)

Jobs Since 2007 vs Population vs Labor Force
by Taboola
From The Web
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What are the broader economic consequences of this developing reality?

Declining GDP. The Obama administration predicted 4.2% GDP growth in 2013. Earlier this year, that number had to be ?corrected? by the Fed to 2.5%. The Congressional Budget Office just revised this figure again ? to a meager 1.4%.
Unsustainable debt. ?The actual liabilities of the federal government?including Social Security, Medicare, and federal employees? future retirement benefits?already exceed $86.8 trillion, or 550% of GDP.? (WSJ)
Taxes consumed by entitlements by 2049. ?Regarding the most critical fiscal challenge of the day?the need to restructure Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security?the President has once again taken a pass. By the middle of this century, these three programs and Obamacare will consume about 18 percent of GDP, soaking up all the historical average of federal tax revenue.? (Heritage)
Economy under threat by 2027. ?At current spending rates, there will be no U.S. Economy by 2027? that?s the opinion of the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office, using the Obama Administration?s own numbers, and Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner doesn?t even bother to deny it.? (Bill Whittle)

Welfare spending is exploding while fewer people are able to shoulder the tax burden. As Baby Boomers retire, this situation will become even more difficult to grapple with.

The U.S. economy cannot continue to sustain these kind of debts, let alone the interest payments and the deteriorating currency needed to finance them. Voters should demand lower taxes, fewer regulations, and real welfare reform. If they don?t, then they are leading the nation to certain and avoidable financial ruin.

 

[thetub]

It's no surprise to see California at the top, as it has the largest population. It is also the top tax revenue producing state.

Where's The Doctor when you need him to provide a clean audit to your cooked books.

Anyone notice the most population dense areas tend to be the most democratic while the lowest population densities tend to be republican?

wow Tom you can make cake out of a pile of shit.

 

[Tom Brown]

wow Tom you can make cake out of a pile of shit.

I love the way you don't even try to support your numbers, you just come in the room yelling. :thumbsup

 

[thetub]

I love the way you don't even try to support your numbers, you just come in the room yelling. :thumbsup

they aint my numbers just throwing it out there. Im living in the reality of those numbers , im in the #1 state on that list.

 

[squeezer]

SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEze there you go again playing gorilla math....




Top 15 Welfare States: 13-of-the-15 are Democrat States
Posted on November 29, 2011 by UnPoliticallyCorrect

Interesting: CNBC published the top 15 states in the Nation that consume the MOST in welfare. 13-of-15 are DEMOCRAT states; they went Blue in 2008.

The BIGGEST US WELFARE STATES

?Year Researched Data???2009????-2007????2008???-2009

State??-% of Pop on Welfare??Spending on Welfare?-Total on Welfare??Unemp

#1. California?????3.30%??????$3.28 BILLION???..1,212,893??.11.5%

#2. Maine??????..2.37%??????.$61.73 MILLION???..31,148???.8.3%

#3. Tennessee????.2.15%?????..$91.28 MILLION???.133,505???.10.7%

#4. Massachusetts??.2.09%?????.$295.29 MILLION???136,033???8.2%

#5. Vermont?????.2.02%?????..$30.92 MILLION???..12,543??..7.3%

#6. Wash DC????..1.99%??????.$18.67 MILLION???..11,806???..10.7%

#7. New York????..1.92%??????$1.47 BILLION????..373,305???8.2%

#8. Minnesota????..1.88%??????$106.29 MILLION???98,028??.8.2%

#9. Washington????1.86%??????$265.88 MILLION??121,864??..9.4%

#10. New Mexico???.1.83%??????$58.87 MILLION??.36,322????..6.5%

#11. Indiana?????..1.83%??????..$102.27 MILLION?..116,430???.10.6%

#12. Rhode Island??..1.79%??????.$57.4 MILLION????..18,839????..12.1%

#13. Michigan????..1.60%??????..$380.93 MILLION???.164,589???14.1%

#14.Pennsylvania???.1.60%??????$247.29 MILLION???198,666????8.2%

#15. Oregon?????.1.55%???????.$83.85 MILLION???.58,831????.12.4%

http://www.cnbc.com/id/31910310?slide=15

All fine and dandy but you need to index by population or it does not mean shit in regard to this conversation. The premise was folks on food stamps put Obama in the White House and that is flat out wrong.

 

[thetub]

All fine and dandy but you need to index by population or it does not mean shit in regard to this conversation. The premise was folks on food stamps put Obama in the White House and that is flat out wrong.

I apologize sir as it applies in this conversation you are correct.

As far as food stamps and those states go, I would be real curious how much of that comes from disaster relief from hurricanes,tornadoes and such? putting a little Tom spin on it...

 

[squeezer]

I apologize sir as it applies in this conversation you are correct.

As far as food stamps and those states go, I would be real curious how much of that comes from disaster relief from hurricanes,tornadoes and such? putting a little Tom spin on it...

Probably a fair chunk of it...

But hell if we follow some of the rhetoric spewn out by a very vocal minority on the far far right god uses storms for punishing people... And since those storms have a predisposition for hitting trailer parks in red states I would think its fair to say god punishes poor people for voting republican.

 

[thetub]

Probably a fair chunk of it...

But hell if we follow some of the rhetoric spewn out by a very vocal minority on the far far right god uses storms for punishing people... And since those storms have a predisposition for hitting trailer parks in red states I would think its fair to say god punishes poor people for voting republican.

:nono

 

[Tom Brown]

Probably a fair chunk of it...

But hell if we follow some of the rhetoric spewn out by a very vocal minority on the far far right god uses storms for punishing people... And since those storms have a predisposition for hitting trailer parks in red states I would think its fair to say god punishes poor people for voting republican.

God definitely punishes people for being Republicans. That's why the red states are so poor and have natural disasters all the time.

These people need to clean up their act before they kill us all.

 

[Paul65k]

Squeezer....just to be clear the flaw is not in your math but in your thesis.......$ paid out in comparison to $ in revenue per person.......the reality is that the politicians are really only worried about votes so the more accurate representation of why we are swinging left has to do with percentage of folks on "The Dole" as a percentage of the population because in reality the only reason Congress (both sides of the aisle) do anything is for votes.....we have all agreed to agree on this one already on this forum.

The liberal side of the aisle continues to gain support as more of their voter base gets on "the Dole", the Republicans by contrast are doing the same thing but in bigger chunks to a smaller group of people......which is why they are losing because they pimp themselves out to a much smaller number of voters albeit paying more $ into the coffers. The Democrats alternately are strategically portioning it back out in much smaller chunks but in the process they are buying a larger number of hearts and minds.......and eventually VOTES in larger numbers........this and this alone is why the Dems continue to build their base.

I think that if only people who paid taxes were allowed to vote we would have a much different make-up in the people that were going to Washington.....not necessarily party affiliation but the people that could get elected......my .02:rant:

 

[Froggystyle]

God punishes poor people for voting Republican.

Sorry bro... Gotta sig it...