Finicum Shooting video inside vehicle

[t&y]

What it looks like from the vid.. But again I guess that's what happens when you set a roadblock at the end of a blind curve.. Things happen quickly. (Which was the intent of putting it there)

Or how about when you flee the seen of a traffic stop, at a high rate of speed, while video taping yourself talking about going out in a gun fight... Wake up Dave. Yes there are things wrong with the way this thing went down, but honestly now you're just talking nonsense.

Real simple question. Do you think everyone should be able to refuse a lawful order of arrest because they'd prefer to be arrested by someone else?

 

[LuckyDaze]

Play dumb games win dumb prizes.

 

[rivermobster]

The way I read it, does not give them the "right" to OWN it, just to apply rules and regulations to land they already own. Such as National parks and forests, gov. buildings and military bases, etc. The government should not own anything called public land, which is what the BLM "manages". It is complete bullshit land-grabbing and I believe unconstitutional.

Here is the thing...

Ages ago the deserts didn't need to be managed. They did just fine on their own. And for thousands of years mind you!

Then we started fucking them up. In a big way.

Glamis would look like a fucking trash dump, if the blm hadn't stepped up and took over. Assholes would leave shit everywhere. Couches, BBQ's, fire pits made out of pallets (nothing left but piles of nails) shit (real shit) and anything else you can think of.

The upper deserts here in socal? Yep. The same way. Whole cars, tires, trash piles, Crack houses that would blow up and catch on fire, good times in the upper deserts for sure!

So...

What's the real reason the BLM exists?

Fucked up people that's why.

Let's put responsiblity for the problems we have now where they belong. On the assholes that fucked our lands. 👎

 

[t&y]

Yup. Some people can't wrap their head around how this country would look or run without regulation. The real tricky part is regulating the regulators.

 

[rivermobster]

Yup. Some people can't wrap their head around how this country would look or run without regulation. The real tricky part is regulating the regulators.

There is no perfect world...

There are asshole boaters, off-roaders, ranchers, cops, politicians, teachers, forum members even!

And they seriously outnumber the good guys. But make no mistake, there Are good guys that still exist, in every walk of life out there.

Don't believe what you read. Find out the Real story before you pass judgment. Make sure you get to the truth.

 

[Raffit78]

This has got to be one of the funniest things I've read on here. So I just want to make sure when I go on duty tonight... If I pull out my gun and shoot it in the direction of a crowd, and someone starts running, are they to blame for running into my bullet? Just like saying... why did you try to beat up my hand with your face... lol...

Seems pretty clear the dude at the road block heard about the idiot driving the truck towards them, saw him coming, and was trying to get out of the way thinking he was going to ram the vehicles.

You guys honestly think the FBI or LEO standing there intintionally ran infront of the truck??? I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

 

[Raffit78]

This is what some of us see,


a road block, SUV swerving towards the left trying to avoid an accident, taking on tremendous amount of artillery.

 

[Ziggy]

I've not followed this closely whatsoever or said a word about this and I may completely wrong but this is how I'm reading into this situation.
To me it appeared the cop behind Fincum was where the lethal shot came from.
I believe Fincum really never thought they would simply gun him down like that, because he probably never really intended or thought he was a "real" threat. ie, his intentions were to make his plight known to the public and get some big name support.....which failed miserably with their method. Nobody tells someone to shot them if he didn't believe he actually would be, had more support....or truly was suicidal, which I doubt he really was.
.
The whole thing is a complete clusterfuck, from the Feds pushing these farmers around to Fincums group attempt to get a grass roots protest established to the Feds and other LE agencies handling of it...........Just sad to see how "we the people" can not be heard without violence, from both ends.

 

[C-2]

Just sharing my opinions like everyone else Tyro.. That said though I would say as we progress through this conversation as a group Tyro we are all learning together. I have learned quite a bit from this thread, from the ranchers themselves, Google and various resources..

Me too, the only thing I have a hard time wrapping my head around is the fact the land belongs to all of us, collectively, and I don't know how that fact is disputable.

So go tell those ranchers to get their fuckin' cows off my land

 

[yz450mm]

Here is the thing...

Ages ago the deserts didn't need to be managed. They did just fine on their own. And for thousands of years mind you!

Then we started fucking them up. In a big way.

Glamis would look like a fucking trash dump, if the blm hadn't stepped up and took over. Assholes would leave shit everywhere. Couches, BBQ's, fire pits made out of pallets (nothing left but piles of nails) shit (real shit) and anything else you can think of.

The upper deserts here in socal? Yep. The same way. Whole cars, tires, trash piles, Crack houses that would blow up and catch on fire, good times in the upper deserts for sure!

So...

What's the real reason the BLM exists?

Fucked up people that's why.

Let's put responsiblity for the problems we have now where they belong. On the assholes that fucked our lands. 👎

Great, so what they need to do is heavily police the assholes, and stop making enemies of the rest of the people out there that are responsible and just there to have a good time. Rolling into somebody's camp like the gestapo and checking every tag, with the intent of impounding anything that is not current, is strictly an a****** move.

How about being a little friendly, issuing a warning or a small citation, and then you might have the public back on your side.

I think for the most part, they do a great job. But the reasonable ones need to learn to reel in the rookie Rangers, and quit making enemies out of the public that pays them.

 

[rivermobster]

Great, so what they need to do is heavily police the assholes, and stop making enemies of the rest of the people out there that are responsible and just there to have a good time. Rolling into somebody's camp like the gestapo and checking every tag, with the intent of impounding anything that is not current, is strictly an a****** move.

How about being a little friendly, issuing a warning or a small citation, and then you might have the public back on your side.

I think for the most part, they do a great job. But the reasonable ones need to learn to reel in the rookie Rangers, and quit making enemies out of the public that pays them.

I've never had that happen to me. Then again, I never go anywhere on a holiday weekend. [emoji6]

One year Robbie and I met with a whole group of Rangers in his trailer.

Their main question to us was...

How do we roll onto a camp, and not get treated like assholes, before we even open our mouths??

Two sides to every story eh? Makes you wonder what the third side is...

 

[yz450mm]

I've never had that happen to me. Then again, I never go anywhere on a holiday weekend. [emoji6]

One year Robbie and I met with a whole group of Rangers in his trailer.

Their main question to us was...

How do we roll onto a camp, and not get treated like assholes, before we even open our mouths??

Two sides to every story eh? Makes you wonder what the third side is...

They're treated like assholes because of the way their predecessors treated the public. From what I understand, in California, your campsite is legally the same as your home. That is why you can carry a weapon while you are in your camp site, and be legal. If they wanted to catch Stolen Bikes, send one Ranger in, with a good attitude , and advise the people in the camp of his intention to Simply Run VIN numbers to look for stolens. I personally would never have a problem with that. Don't fish for other violations, and don't start impounding people's toys because they forgot to put their sticker on before the trip.

We used to have a huge group that went to Dumont. If a ranger came into our camp and approached us in this manner, I guarantee you every person would have been cool, shot the s*** with him, and offered them cold drinks out of the cooler.

Come into camp or approach us with your prick stick out, and you will get treated likewise.

 

[ParkerRat]

Press conference: Finicum's Wife

[video=youtube_https;T-kHCIvPU3o]https://youtu.be/T-kHCIvPU3o[/video]

 

[riverroyal]

but, these guys sound like uneducated, back wood morons. The guy was saying use the laser right here on my cowboy hat, the girls sounded 6th grade education at best. I don't know the back story on any of them, but holy shit. I understand the small town lifestyle but damn they didn't live in Dodge City, its not cowboys and Indians anymore. Like a cult!

im sure someone will not like my above statements. You opinion may vary

 

[C-2]

but, these guys sound like uneducated, back wood morons. The guy was saying use the laser right here on my cowboy hat, the girls sounded 6th grade education at best. I don't know the back story on any of them, but holy shit. I understand the small town lifestyle but damn they didn't live in Dodge City, its not cowboys and Indians anymore. Like a cult!

im sure someone will not like my above statements. You opinion may vary

No, your comments are spot on; I originally said it sounds like they are incompetent, and I don't say that in a demeaning way, just what it sounds like to me.

And then everybody takes their words as the gospel, with the dead guy giving Constitution lessons.....ahh, no.

 

[rivermobster]

Looks like maybe 10 people showed up, and all of em were the Local news stations.

Eleven children?!?!?!? Dammmm.

Good luck lady, you're gonna need it.

 

[RiverDave]

Or how about when you flee the seen of a traffic stop, at a high rate of speed, while video taping yourself talking about going out in a gun fight... Wake up Dave. Yes there are things wrong with the way this thing went down, but honestly now you're just talking nonsense.

I can understand your sentiment coming from a typical traffic stop situation / mentality. Where we differ is on the idea that there was anything normal about this situation, and I think you are leaving out (or possibly don't know?) some of the details.

This truck was stopped, and the passenger Ammon Bundy was arrested on site. The truck then sat there for another 10 - 15 minutes idling in the street. It was well known to all parties where they were going, and why they were going there. (They were going to meet the Sheriff) So let me tell you kind of how this plays out in my head.

These guys announce that they are going to meet with the Sheriff on this day at this location. The phone calls run up the chain to a guy sitting in a nice leather chair with a glass of brandy and a big cigar.. That guy calmly says into the phone "They aren't going to make that meeting, and you make an example of these hillbilly fuckers to make sure nobody else tries this bullshit again." Which travels back down the line to some seriously powerful people that have a little meeting of "Ok this is where they are going, this is how they are going to get there.. and this is what we are going to do."

Now I propose to you that every single aspect of this operation was planned ahead of time, right down to where they put that road block and as to why they put it there. It would be really easy to say "Dave, you are being a conspiracy theorist now." But my argument for the earlier is quite simple.. If there's military grade drones flying in the air, then believe me that guy in the leather chair got the call.. and this plan was in tact before those boys even got in the truck. As for the cell service, it wouldn't surprise me one bit to find out they either had signal jammers out there, or they picked the spot based on the idea there was no coverage.

If the FBI started popping rounds into the truck (and then lied about it) then the guy that was sitting in that chair gave a pretty clear direction of what they wanted to happen. Being that they popped rounds into the guy with his hands up (per the video), I think there is less than zero chance he was making it out of this alive. He's the perfect guy for it. Had they killed Ammon Bundy or Cliven, then people will remember all the press the stand off got and it would turn them into a Martyr situation. You pop ole Levoy, and most the American public says "Who's that?"

To the point though it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the same people that have been having a disagreement with the Federal Government for years.. Whom have now had a full on armed Stand Off (referring to the Bundy Ranch) a little while back, and have just recently told the Federal Government quite literally "F You" by taking over there refuge dealio there.. Aren't going to sit idling in the truck on the road forever.. Of course they are going to leave.. and when they do they are going to come around this corner and let the games begin.

I firmly believe by the way that after they popped Levoy, they were shooting the truck with rounds, rather than non lethal pepperballs as was suggested in here. Now you will say "Oh c'mon.... Dave." and I retort with Ryan Bundy (Ammon's brother) was in the backseat and took one of those rounds in the shoulder, and that wasn't a pepperball. LOL

I believe they wanted to kill him as well, but they missed their window of opportunity and eventually had to tone it down to Non lethal because how can you justify shooting a truck with live rounds for 5 minutes after killing the driver with no presentable evidence of a threat? The people in the truck have said they were shooting rounds into the truck as well, and you can even see one of the lasers from a sniper crawling across the back of the front headrest at one point in the video. Only at the end does the gas talk start.

It will be very interesting to say the least if they allow the general public to see the aftermath of the truck. I would bet it's riddled with bullet holes. I would doubt they are going to let anybody examine it though? Or maybe they will because the PR is so terrible on the cowboy sides of things nobody even gives a shit what happened anymore.

You say obey lawful orders.. That's fine. But you aren't figuring what these people have been through over the years and even months leading up to this? There was 48 Warrants drafted for those that stood with the Bundy family at the stand off awhile back. They are trumped up charges to say the least.. Hell they got Ammon and his Father Cliven facing LIFE sentences now.. and for what? What did they really do? They kill someone? They have the Hammond's in for a year, and then thrown back in the clink now for.. I can't remember now.. 5 - 10 years? And for what?? Because they won't sell their land to the BLM? eeerrrrr... Sorry this is actually supposed to be about some fire that burned a 100 acres of government land.. Never mind the fact there is plenty of documentable instances where BLM did their prescribed burns and it jumped onto the Hammond family property and nothing had ever happened? Hell the Hammond's had their fires jump lines before in years past and it was no big deal then either?

So now you start looking at this government that is doing a lot of illegal things.. Steam rolling everything in their path, and either locking your friends up, charging people with trumped up charges, trying to ruin your livelihood and burning down other peoples houses and property? You'd want to talk to a local Sheriff as well whom might side with you instead of the State police or the Feds.


If you are asking me what the right course of action would have been to minimize the deal? Or a solution where they could've arrested everyone and nobody be killed? Off the cuff - I would have setup at the Sheriff's office and when they walked inside I would've arrested them in the building and just walked them right to a cell and they can have all the conversations with the Sheriff they want as a "federal prisoner" in a cell... or hell they could've given them a police escort right to the location and done the same.

They didn't want to arrest these people. They wanted to make an example and flex some muscle and they did it. The question now is, will a jury buy off that there was no intent to kill and this was just some high speed thing that happened? Or are they gonna say "You killed this dumb bastard and now you are gonna pay for it."

What's the real reason the BLM exists?

Interesting question for sure.. One that I asked myself the other day and started doing some research on. So it basically comes down to poor disposal of the lands. Way back in the day when people were settling out west, a person could "Homestead" a 160 acres of land by building a 14 x 16 house on it. So without writing a novel on the subject. The 160 acres wasn't big enough for the ranchers etc.. So you would have joe blow homestead over here. and john q homesteaded over there and there'd be giant parcels of land in between called "commons." Well John Q and Joe Blow wouldn't always get along so there was some legit "wild west" shit going on when those skirmishes happened.. Then you had the Sheep herders that would travel through the common lands sometimes 2 states away from where they started. Now Joe Blow and John Q might not always like each other, but it was pretty common that everybody hated the nomadic sheep herder fuckers because they'd just blow through the commons.. and sometimes you'd go to graze your cows only to find out the sheep herders had already come through there and ate all the grass already. This led to some pretty epic battles between cattlemen and sheep herders etc.. So to put a stop to that, the government decided to manage the land, and assign grazing permits to prevent future conflicts. Enter the Bureau of Land Management.

Yup. Some people can't wrap their head around how this country would look or run without regulation. The real tricky part is regulating the regulators.

It's ironic you say that in this very thread, where some people went out to make a stand to try and do just that.. LOL

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That's pretty much what I see as well. I saw a guy make a decision to run and keep running towards the front of a moving vehicle? He wasn't running away from the road block.. LOL

but, these guys sound like uneducated, back wood morons. The guy was saying use the laser right here on my cowboy hat, the girls sounded 6th grade education at best. I don't know the back story on any of them, but holy shit. I understand the small town lifestyle but damn they didn't live in Dodge City, its not cowboys and Indians anymore. Like a cult!

im sure someone will not like my above statements. You opinion may vary

Kinda surprised me that the government would use laser sights on their long guns, but they had them on that day. You can see them in the video, and they are talked about a few different times during the incident. "Keep the lasers off of you" is what they say, and you can see the lasers combing the truck looking for a target.

RD

 

[riverroyal]

I can understand your sentiment coming from a typical traffic stop situation / mentality. Where we differ is on the idea that there was anything normal about this situation, and I think you are leaving out (or possibly don't know?) some of the details.

This truck was stopped, and the passenger Ammon Bundy was arrested on site. The truck then sat there for another 10 - 15 minutes idling in the street. It was well known to all parties where they were going, and why they were going there. (They were going to meet the Sheriff) So let me tell you kind of how this plays out in my head.

These guys announce that they are going to meet with the Sheriff on this day at this location. The phone calls run up the chain to a guy sitting in a nice leather chair with a glass of brandy and a big cigar.. That guy calmly says into the phone "They aren't going to make that meeting, and you make an example of these hillbilly fuckers to make sure nobody else tries this bullshit again." Which travels back down the line to some seriously powerful people that have a little meeting of "Ok this is where they are going, this is how they are going to get there.. and this is what we are going to do."

Now I propose to you that every single aspect of this operation was planned ahead of time, right down to where they put that road block and as to why they put it there. It would be really easy to say "Dave, you are being a conspiracy theorist now." But my argument for the earlier is quite simple.. If there's military grade drones flying in the air, then believe me that guy in the leather chair got the call.. and this plan was in tact before those boys even got in the truck. As for the cell service, it wouldn't surprise me one bit to find out they either had signal jammers out there, or they picked the spot based on the idea there was no coverage.

If the FBI started popping rounds into the truck (and then lied about it) then the guy that was sitting in that chair gave a pretty clear direction of what they wanted to happen. Being that they popped rounds into the guy with his hands up (per the video), I think there is less than zero chance he was making it out of this alive. He's the perfect guy for it. Had they killed Ammon Bundy or Cliven, then people will remember all the press the stand off got and it would turn them into a Martyr situation. You pop ole Levoy, and most the American public says "Who's that?"

To the point though it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the same people that have been having a disagreement with the Federal Government for years.. Whom have now had a full on armed Stand Off (referring to the Bundy Ranch) a little while back, and have just recently told the Federal Government quite literally "F You" by taking over there refuge dealio there.. Aren't going to sit idling in the truck on the road forever.. Of course they are going to leave.. and when they do they are going to come around this corner and let the games begin.

I firmly believe by the way that after they popped Levoy, they were shooting the truck with rounds, rather than non lethal pepperballs as was suggested in here. Now you will say "Oh c'mon.... Dave." and I retort with Ryan Bundy (Ammon's brother) was in the backseat and took one of those rounds in the shoulder, and that wasn't a pepperball. LOL

I believe they wanted to kill him as well, but they missed their window of opportunity and eventually had to tone it down to Non lethal because how can you justify shooting a truck with live rounds for 5 minutes after killing the driver with no presentable evidence of a threat? The people in the truck have said they were shooting rounds into the truck as well, and you can even see one of the lasers from a sniper crawling across the back of the front headrest at one point in the video. Only at the end does the gas talk start.

It will be very interesting to say the least if they allow the general public to see the aftermath of the truck. I would bet it's riddled with bullet holes. I would doubt they are going to let anybody examine it though? Or maybe they will because the PR is so terrible on the cowboy sides of things nobody even gives a shit what happened anymore.

You say obey lawful orders.. That's fine. But you aren't figuring what these people have been through over the years and even months leading up to this? There was 48 Warrants drafted for those that stood with the Bundy family at the stand off awhile back. They are trumped up charges to say the least.. Hell they got Ammon and his Father Cliven facing LIFE sentences now.. and for what? What did they really do? They kill someone? They have the Hammond's in for a year, and then thrown back in the clink now for.. I can't remember now.. 5 - 10 years? And for what?? Because they won't sell their land to the BLM? eeerrrrr... Sorry this is actually supposed to be about some fire that burned a 100 acres of government land.. Never mind the fact there is plenty of documentable instances where BLM did their prescribed burns and it jumped onto the Hammond family property and nothing had ever happened? Hell the Hammond's had their fires jump lines before in years past and it was no big deal then either?

So now you start looking at this government that is doing a lot of illegal things.. Steam rolling everything in their path, and either locking your friends up, charging people with trumped up charges, trying to ruin your livelihood and burning down other peoples houses and property? You'd want to talk to a local Sheriff as well whom might side with you instead of the State police or the Feds.


If you are asking me what the right course of action would have been to minimize the deal? Or a solution where they could've arrested everyone and nobody be killed? Off the cuff - I would have setup at the Sheriff's office and when they walked inside I would've arrested them in the building and just walked them right to a cell and they can have all the conversations with the Sheriff they want as a "federal prisoner" in a cell... or hell they could've given them a police escort right to the location and done the same.

They didn't want to arrest these people. They wanted to make an example and flex some muscle and they did it. The question now is, will a jury buy off that there was no intent to kill and this was just some high speed thing that happened? Or are they gonna say "You killed this dumb bastard and now you are gonna pay for it."



Interesting question for sure.. One that I asked myself the other day and started doing some research on. So it basically comes down to poor disposal of the lands. Way back in the day when people were settling out west, a person could "Homestead" a 160 acres of land by building a 14 x 16 house on it. So without writing a novel on the subject. The 160 acres wasn't big enough for the ranchers etc.. So you would have joe blow homestead over here. and john q homesteaded over there and there'd be giant parcels of land in between called "commons." Well John Q and Joe Blow wouldn't always get along so there was some legit "wild west" shit going on when those skirmishes happened.. Then you had the Sheep herders that would travel through the common lands sometimes 2 states away from where they started. Now Joe Blow and John Q might not always like each other, but it was pretty common that everybody hated the nomadic sheep herder fuckers because they'd just blow through the commons.. and sometimes you'd go to graze your cows only to find out the sheep herders had already come through there and ate all the grass already. This led to some pretty epic battles between cattlemen and sheep herders etc.. So to put a stop to that, the government decided to manage the land, and assign grazing permits to prevent future conflicts. Enter the Bureau of Land Management.



It's ironic you say that in this very thread, where some people went out to make a stand to try and do just that.. LOL




That's pretty much what I see as well. I saw a guy make a decision to run and keep running towards the front of a moving vehicle? He wasn't running away from the road block.. LOL



Kinda surprised me that the government would use laser sights on their long guns, but they had them on that day. You can see them in the video, and they are talked about a few different times during the incident. "Keep the lasers off of you" is what they say, and you can see the lasers combing the truck looking for a target.

RD

That's the longest post in the history of posting. It's like you own the place or something

 

[RiverDave]

I addressed a couple different posts and added the history of the BLM and the common grounds in there etc.. Just wanted to cover all the basis and throw my conspiracy theory in there as well.. Lol

 

[C-2]

Interesting question for sure.. One that I asked myself the other day and started doing some research on. So it basically comes down to poor disposal of the lands. Way back in the day when people were settling out west, a person could "Homestead" a 160 acres of land by building a 14 x 16 house on it. So without writing a novel on the subject. The 160 acres wasn't big enough for the ranchers etc.. So you would have joe blow homestead over here. and john q homesteaded over there and there'd be giant parcels of land in between called "commons." Well John Q and Joe Blow wouldn't always get along so there was some legit "wild west" shit going on when those skirmishes happened.. Then you had the Sheep herders that would travel through the common lands sometimes 2 states away from where they started. Now Joe Blow and John Q might not always like each other, but it was pretty common that everybody hated the nomadic sheep herder fuckers because they'd just blow through the commons.. and sometimes you'd go to graze your cows only to find out the sheep herders had already come through there and ate all the grass already. This led to some pretty epic battles between cattlemen and sheep herders etc.. So to put a stop to that, the government decided to manage the land, and assign grazing permits to prevent future conflicts. Enter the Bureau of Land Management.


RD

An interesting and fun read is about the Sooners of Oklahoma.

My family are members of the First Families of the Twin Territories, my great/great/grandmother at the age of 76 in 1887 rode her team of 9 Oxen from McKinney, Texas to Sugden, OK. At Fort Sill, she filed for an alottment of land - but her number was 75,000 and she did not draw a claim. She had to rent and then later buy a 180 acre farm there, that happened I believe in 1905.

Sooner, than later as the saying goes.

 

[Go-Fly]

I addressed a couple different posts and added the history of the BLM and the common grounds in there etc.. Just wanted to cover all the basis and throw my conspiracy theory in there as well.. Lol

I read your manifesto some post back that almost comes off like you think we should obey the laws we agree with and just blow off the ones we disagree with. Then negotiate a settlement with law enforcement when your actions have consequences but, there are only special people that can do this after a certain tipping point. You see how that turned out. I'll say it again that these people were so in the right and went about it in all the wrong ways. I see no positive outcome from any of this.

 

[t&y]

I addressed a couple different posts and added the history of the BLM and the common grounds in there etc.. Just wanted to cover all the basis and throw my conspiracy theory in there as well.. Lol

You have a very vivid imagination Dave. I read it figuring you just finished watching a Bourne Identity marathon or something

 

[n2otoofast4u]

I am probably biased being that I'm from Oregon. That said, you guys and gals that live where BLM doesn't completely rule the land don't quite understand how far these fucks are taking their authority. We can't do 1/10 of the shit in our desert as you guys can. In my short reading here it seems that they are starting to ruin you're ground down there as well. These protesters 100% have an argument that attaches to their message, but 100% went about it wrong. Mr. Finicum paid the ultimate price, but he over stepped his bounds the very second he careened off the road driving like a goon. These guys left federal property that they had overtaken then thought they were mighty enough that they could just carry on without issue into town to go preach their shit. They have a message, and it's a good one. But they delivered it in a terrible way. If one thing changes from all of this, then I guess Mr. Finicum's loss of life will forever be admired and might live on in the history books. But in a world where most can't name the vice-president of this country, his name will drift into the distance with the same people who were responsible for blowing up the Boston marathon. The show will go on, despite what memories we have of the name and the only thoughts will be "that goofy fuck in oregon who got killed" all the while we will all fall victim to the man dictating what we can, and most likely cannot do on publicly owned land.

 

[RiverDave]

You have a very vivid imagination Dave. I read it figuring you just finished watching a Bourne Identity marathon or something

Well when drones are flying above and lasers are scanning through the truck, it does have the semblance of something you see on the big screen doesn't it?

I read your manifesto some post back that almost comes off like you think we should obey the laws we agree with and just blow off the ones we disagree with. Then negotiate a settlement with law enforcement when your actions have consequences but, there are only special people that can do this after a certain tipping point. You see how that turned out. I'll say it again that these people were so in the right and went about it in all the wrong ways. I see no positive outcome from any of this.

I'm saying what happened isn't right.. And more or less they didn't have to drop the hammer on the guy but they did it to set an example of what exactly happens when you screw with them. There's a hundred different ways to have handled that situation (on both sides) but at the end it was a show of power and examples were made.

 

[Old Texan]

I'm saying what happened isn't right.. And more or less they didn't have to drop the hammer on the guy but they did it to set an example of what exactly happens when you screw with them. There's a hundred different ways to have handled that situation (on both sides) but at the end it was a show of power and examples were made.

I've again not researched all of this incident to talk about many aspects of it. But from what I have observed, n2otoofast4u's post makes a lot of sense to me. There were issues that needed to be worked out in court that instead were pushed over the line with occupation of a federal building.

Finicum getting himself shot is on him as he refused to realize the occupation made them "dangerous" criminals in the eyes of the law. Armed ones at that and places them at a higher degree of response from LE. A degree that includes shoot to kill if the incident escalates. And when he made his run around the roadblock, it clearly looks that he almost ran over an officer. This particular act most likely sealed his fate as it comes across as he tried to harm the LE.

I reserve any sympathy for Finicum as he made poor choices plus he had a child in the vehicle which is plain stupid. All his credibility to me from the video is absent and he handled this situation as a martyr or blind idiot.

Now with all that being said, the BLM and other agencies present handled this mess very poorly. They got the people isolated but didn't have agents present with level heads that could have prevented the outcome. And the shooting into the truck was far and away completely wrong.

Maybe it was setting an example, but more likely just poorly done with lack of objective leadership present that could have cooled down the situation without any shots fired. Now either side has points of justification and the main issues will get pushed aside......This whole ordeal is just another example of our oversized government lacking the common sense and ability to deal with citizens that feel, right or wrong, they are being pushed to the brink of their very existence.

A don't have the answers, just observations that our government needs some serious changes made that can bring bureaucracy under control and citizens need to realize with the growing population we are going to have changes that could and will effect things in their lives they've always taken for granted. Basically government needs to train people to stop with their arrogance and the folks they deal with need to gain better ways to deal with issues legally by better educating themselves with actual facts rather than conjecture and self educating themselves via the internet and assumptions.

 

[Go-Fly]

Well when drones are flying above and lasers are scanning through the truck, it does have the semblance of something you see on the big screen doesn't it?



I'm saying what happened isn't right.. And more or less they didn't have to drop the hammer on the guy but they did it to set an example of what exactly happens when you screw with them. There's a hundred different ways to have handled that situation (on both sides) but at the end it was a show of power and examples were made.

I can't say you are wrong and we can all agree this was as bad as it could get. I just think this was the outcome that he wanted. Was told once that when law enforcement goes to a gun fight they like to take ten times the manpower and two times the fire power. The good guys go home to their families and the criminals get to lay there waiting for a body pick-up. I have worked with land use issues going back to the 80's. Everything from turning wetlands into commercial parks to logging to grazing cattle in Eastern Oregon. Every time you build vertical or bring in yellow steel to clear land you have land use issues. I have been in court more times then I can count. Some I have won, some I have lost, some have cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars. At no time have I felt threaten by my government or anyone that I came into contact with. It's just not the way real life works.

 

[rivermobster]

I've again not researched all of this incident to talk about many aspects of it. But from what I have observed, n2otoofast4u's post makes a lot of sense to me. There were issues that needed to be worked out in court that instead were pushed over the line with occupation of a federal building.

Finicum getting himself shot is on him as he refused to realize the occupation made them "dangerous" criminals in the eyes of the law. Armed ones at that and places them at a higher degree of response from LE. A degree that includes shoot to kill if the incident escalates. And when he made his run around the roadblock, it clearly looks that he almost ran over an officer. This particular act most likely sealed his fate as it comes across as he tried to harm the LE.

I reserve any sympathy for Finicum as he made poor choices plus he had a child in the vehicle which is plain stupid. All his credibility to me from the video is absent and he handled this situation as a martyr or blind idiot.

Now with all that being said, the BLM and other agencies present handled this mess very poorly. They got the people isolated but didn't have agents present with level heads that could have prevented the outcome. And the shooting into the truck was far and away completely wrong.

Maybe it was setting an example, but more likely just poorly done with lack of objective leadership present that could have cooled down the situation without any shots fired. Now either side has points of justification and the main issues will get pushed aside......This whole ordeal is just another example of our oversized government lacking the common sense and ability to deal with citizens that feel, right or wrong, they are being pushed to the brink of their very existence.

A don't have the answers, just observations that our government needs some serious changes made that can bring bureaucracy under control and citizens need to realize with the growing population we are going to have changes that could and will effect things in their lives they've always taken for granted. Basically government needs to train people to stop with their arrogance and the folks they deal with need to gain better ways to deal with issues legally by better educating themselves with actual facts rather than conjecture and self educating themselves via the internet and assumptions.

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