Finicum Shooting video inside vehicle

[Raffit78]

[video=youtube;9DGXDgzOCls]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DGXDgzOCls[/video]



Discuss?

 

[shintoooo]

He should have just obeyed their orders.

 

[Havasu Rehab]

At the 5:30 mark, when he exits the car he says "go ahead and shoot me" and raises his left hand in the air as if he has a gun. He should have obeyed. He would still be here if he did so.

 

[rivermobster]

Looks like he got what he asked for. Dumbazz.

 

[Lunatic Fringe]

I just don't feel any sympathy at all except for the LEO's who were stuck in that situation.

Playing protester and carrying guns was all fun and games until the other side called the bluff.
All of a sudden, those still in the truck forgot all about the cause.

 

[rivrrts429]

He fucked up but now the heat is back on the FBI as the first shots they fired as soon as he steps out of vehicle went unreported.

FBI agent or agents trying to cover up something.

At the end of the day he was asking to die. He got his wish.

 

[t&y]

He fucked up but now the heat is back on the FBI as the first shots they fired as soon as he steps out of vehicle went unreported.

FBI agent or agents trying to cover up something.

At the end of the day he was asking to die. He got his wish.

Where have you heard they were unreported?

 

[rivrrts429]

Where have you heard they were unreported?

BEND ? An FBI agent is suspected of lying about firing twice at Robert "LaVoy" Finicum and may have gotten help from four other FBI agents in covering up afterward, authorities revealed Tuesday.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/oregon_standoff_fbi_agents_und.html

 

[460]

Zero sympathy. He should have listened to them from the very start.

 

[riverbrian]

Crazy maybe, murdered absolutely.

How far did they follow OJ, or how long do these car chases go on for?

Sounds like they missed the first two times, is it ok for us to shoot an intruder that is running out of the house?

 

[IN AWE]

Absolutely was murder, government is out of control.

 

[RiverDave]

Should have just listened huh?

Ok so why don't any of you guys explain to me why they were lighting the truck up for five minutes with zero presence of a threat?

If they would have shot one of the girls or the guy in the truck (which make no mistake they tried). Then would it still be "should have listened?"

Is there any question at all about the fact that if any of them tried to get out of the truck (as directed) they would have gotten clipped the same as their buddy?

 

[IN AWE]

Should have just listened huh?

Ok so why don't any of you guys explain to me why they were lighting the truck up for five minutes with zero presence of a threat?

If they would have shot one of the girls or the guy in the truck (which make no mistake they tried). Then would it still be "should have listened?"

Is there any question at all about the fact that if any of them tried to get out of the truck (as directed) they would have gotten clipped the same as their buddy?

Should have just listened, Pffft. Some people on this site have bumped their head.

 

[Raffit78]

To think this received as "much" press as the mining water leak in the Arizona river.

 

[RiverDave]

To think this received as "much" press as the mining water leak in the Arizona river.

It's crazy to me that people are "ok" with this..

 

[shintoooo]

It's crazy to me that people are "ok" with this..

These guys were armed and were threatening to use their weapons. If you were on the other side you would have probably shot too.

What's the difference between this situation and the black guy I posted last week getting in trouble for Jaywalking? Nothing really, they both should have listened to the cops. It's the world we live in.

 

[Go-Fly]

It's crazy to me that people are "ok" with this..

Dave, these were good people with a good cause and I think had a right to protest. I don't think there is to many people that would disagree with that. But, when you bring guns to a protest, everyone knows what the outcome will be. All the good that could of be done was off the table and all we remember is a box of dildo's along with some cookies. Why they were there was no longer the story and a man lost his life over it thinking that he would really change things. The police and FBI are not there to decide who is right or wrong as far as the protest goes, they are there to enforce the law. I think it's back page news and people don't care about death by cop. If the cops ever have guns pointed at me, I'm going to do what I'm told, when I'm told and how I'm told. The odds are in my favor in a court of law and almost 100% against me in a gun fight. The story now will be, who fired the rounds and didn't report it. Trumps hand size will be bigger news then this. Sorry.

 

[C-2]

That video makes it worse for their cause. Who does that? I question their competency, all of them.

 

[lakemadness]

Did he hit a guy when he drove off in to the snow? Sure looks like he either hit someone or came damn close.

 

[Ballyhoo]

Many of the rounds hitting the truck after it stopped looked like gas projectiles. I don't know what kind they had as there are many different types.

 

[rivrrts429]

Did he hit a guy when he drove off in to the snow? Sure like like he either hit someone or came damn close.

The cops start shooting as the truck rounds the curve. Looks like cop is drawn down on him as he ditches it into the snow. I think it's the cop who goes towards the truck.

Many of the rounds hitting the truck after it stopped looked like gas projectiles. I don't know what kind they had as there are many different types.

It was pepper balls I think.

 

[DaveC]

Kind of heavy handed by the Feds.

Clearly these guys are protesting all wrong. Now consider if he did that in LA. He would have been chased by 50 cops, 20 news helicopters and he would have been tackled after a brief foot chase and thrown in the back of a police car still alive. That is of course as long as he was not protesting the federal government

They need to get some Brown or black people in their protest. That would help too.

Gimme a break. Not saying that any of it is right but we have seen much worse from other so called "protests" that didn't result in getting killed by a shot from a black-clad Fed's AR. :cool

The city of Oakland just lost a multi million dollar lawsuit because a protestor was accidentally hit in the head with a tear gas canister shot at him.

Maybe the family should sue and cite precedent

Next time they need to burn and loot a dozen properties and cars in downtown Oakland to make their point. Nobody gets in trouble there

 

[ParkerRat]

Two interesting Reads below.
JEANETTE FINICUM RESPONDS TO OREGON STATE AND FBI INVESTIGATIVE REPORT

DEADMANS ROADBLOCK SHOCKS THE CONSCIENCE

Here's the Press Conference where the State Police and FBI Give their side of the Story. Note that the FBI special agent in charge will not admit any wrong doing but the State Police make it clear that an FBI HRT sniper fired on the Truck and then lied about it.
[video=youtube_https;cWvvrB6mDwg]https://youtu.be/cWvvrB6mDwg[/video]

 

[rivermobster]

Should have just listened huh?

Ok so why don't any of you guys explain to me why they were lighting the truck up for five minutes with zero presence of a threat?

If they would have shot one of the girls or the guy in the truck (which make no mistake they tried). Then would it still be "should have listened?"

Is there any question at all about the fact that if any of them tried to get out of the truck (as directed) they would have gotten clipped the same as their buddy?

Tell ya what Dave, how about you go down to Havasu City Hall, and throw everyone out at gunpoint. Be sure to make all kinna threats, and tell the cops you have back-up on the way, and it's gonna be a blood bath.

When you step out, cause you ran outa food, yell at the cops and tell em; go ahead, shoot me, over and over again.

What do you think will happen to you?

a. You'll get a reward for standing up for your cause

b. You'll get shot dead as a fucking door nail.

Choose wisely. :thumbup:

 

[Lunatic Fringe]

Tell ya what Dave, how about you go down to Havasu City Hall, and throw everyone out at gunpoint. Be sure to make all kinna threats, and tell the cops you have back-up on the way, and it's gonna be a blood bath.

When you step out, cause you ran outa food, yell at the cops and tell em; go ahead, shoot me, over and over again.

What do you think will happen to you?

a. You'll get a reward for standing up for your cause

b. You'll get shot dead as a fucking door nail.

Choose wisely. :thumbup:

And also while screaming at the cops, make a move that is interpreted as going for a weapon. Whether you are or not doesn't matter, it's the interpretation.

 

[t&y]

BEND ? An FBI agent is suspected of lying about firing twice at Robert "LaVoy" Finicum and may have gotten help from four other FBI agents in covering up afterward, authorities revealed Tuesday.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/oregon_standoff_fbi_agents_und.html

Fuck the feds honestly... But back to the big picture, when the idiot driving is making the statements he was during the first stop, then almost takes out that guy trying to go around, or whatever he was doing, game over.

 

[t&y]

Should have just listened huh?

Ok so why don't any of you guys explain to me why they were lighting the truck up for five minutes with zero presence of a threat?

If they would have shot one of the girls or the guy in the truck (which make no mistake they tried). Then would it still be "should have listened?"

Is there any question at all about the fact that if any of them tried to get out of the truck (as directed) they would have gotten clipped the same as their buddy?

They were hitting the windows and inside the truck with soft projectiles. Maybe even pepper balls to gas them out of the truck or incapacitate them to a point of surrender. You have to keep in perspective of all the statements made just prior by the idiot driver. That plays into the mindset of everyone on scene and I can just about guarantee they were broadcasting what was being said the feds at the secondary road block knew what they were getting into.

Law Enforcement isn't always pretty Dave... but that doesn't make it wrong given the circumstances.

 

[Joker]

Disturbing in so many ways.

 

[rivrrts429]

Tell ya what Dave, how about you go down to Havasu City Hall, and throw everyone out at gunpoint. Be sure to make all kinna threats, and tell the cops you have back-up on the way, and it's gonna be a blood bath.

When you step out, cause you ran outa food, yell at the cops and tell em; go ahead, shoot me, over and over again.

What do you think will happen to you?

a. You'll get a reward for standing up for your cause

b. You'll get shot dead as a fucking door nail.

Choose wisely. :thumbup:

Although this guy fucked up and got what he was asking them to do, I think RD is talking about how this deal began.

The Fed's pulled some seriously shady shit on the landowners and they had enough. They didn't want to be another Ruby Ridge or Waco.

I've got no issue with the State Troopers. They showed great restraint in this instance but this story goes way back.

 

[rivrrts429]

Fuck the feds honestly... But back to the big picture, when the idiot driving is making the statements he was during the first stop, then almost takes out that guy trying to go around, or whatever he was doing, game over.

I've got no issues with the state troopers. They performed flawlessly.

The Fed's on the other hand are savages and you knew it would come to this with how it started in the months and years before the standoff ever began.

 

[rivermobster]

Although this guy fucked up and got what he was asking them to do, I think RD is talking about how this deal began.

The Fed's pulled some seriously shady shit on the landowners and they had enough. They didn't want to be another Ruby Ridge or Waco.

I've got no issue with the State Troopers. They showed great restraint in this instance but this story goes way back.

Oh.

Kinna hard to tell What he is talking about sometimes!

[emoji13]

 

[rivrrts429]

Oh.

Kinna hard to tell What he is talking about sometimes!

[emoji13]

I don't want to put words in his mouth but kind of hard to argue the ending. I'm crossing my fingers RD is talking about how they got to that day lol

How it began and the story leading up to the shooting is pretty fucked.

 

[rivermobster]

I don't want to put words in his mouth but kind of hard to argue the ending. I'm crossing my fingers RD is talking about how they got to that day lol

How it began and the story leading up to the shooting is pretty fucked.

And the ending was even worse. Guy was a dumbazz from what I saw in that vid. Sad he lost his life.

 

[RiverDave]

Tell ya what Dave, how about you go down to Havasu City Hall, and throw everyone out at gunpoint. Be sure to make all kinna threats, and tell the cops you have back-up on the way, and it's gonna be a blood bath.

When you step out, cause you ran outa food, yell at the cops and tell em; go ahead, shoot me, over and over again.

What do you think will happen to you?

a. You'll get a reward for standing up for your cause

b. You'll get shot dead as a fucking door nail.

Choose wisely. :thumbup:

Lol.. Well that's not even remotely close to an accurate description of what they did?

 

[rivermobster]

Lol.. Well that's not even remotely close to an accurate description of what they did?

That's pretty much exactly what they did!

Well, I did leave the part out about not doing as you were told to do, and trying to run a road block...

So I guess you're right after all. [emoji106]

 

[nrbr]

They forced everyone out of city hall at gunpoint and hit the road waving their guns?? I didn't hear anything about that but I've been busy all day...

 

[RiverDave]

They were hitting the windows and inside the truck with soft projectiles. Maybe even pepper balls to gas them out of the truck or incapacitate them to a point of surrender. You have to keep in perspective of all the statements made just prior by the idiot driver. That plays into the mindset of everyone on scene and I can just about guarantee they were broadcasting what was being said the feds at the secondary road block knew what they were getting into.

Law Enforcement isn't always pretty Dave... but that doesn't make it wrong given the circumstances.

I've got no issues with the state troopers. They performed flawlessly.

The Fed's on the other hand are savages and you knew it would come to this with how it started in the months and years before the standoff ever began.

I don't want to put words in his mouth but kind of hard to argue the ending. I'm crossing my fingers RD is talking about how they got to that day lol

How it began and the story leading up to the shooting is pretty fucked.

The story leading up it was fucked.. But even this story post shooting is fucked when the local authorities flat said the Feds are lying about shooting first etc..

The roadblock in my opinion was nothing short of an ambush.. The driver didn't "almost hit someone." The someone almost got hit because he was running out in front of the truck..

It's hard to know what actually took place from those videos.. But the people in the truck are claiming he had his hands up until they shot him, that is when his hands went down, to hold his bullet wound. After that they shot him several more times..

I'm not convinced that they were shooting the truck with "soft projectiles" the entire time. The people in the truck sure didn't think they were non lethal judging by the audio, until the end.. Automotive glass is pretty tough shot to break (if you have ever tried). And several windows got blown out of the truck. (Would be really interesting to see if the truck is riddled with bullet holes which I think it would be.

Personally I think they ambushed these guys.. They did it in the middle of nowhere and every detail of it was planned. At least one person was gonna die that day, if not all. The rest got lucky they didn't get out of the truck.


That said I am flat amazed at how calm and collected the audio was on the video given the circumstances..

 

[rivrrts429]

The story leading up it was fucked..

The roadblock in my opinion was nothing short of an ambush.. The driver didn't "almost hit someone." The someone almost got hit because he was running out in front of the truck..

It's hard to know what actually took place from those videos.. But the people in the truck are claiming he had his hands up until they shot him, that is when his hands went down, where they shot him several more times..

I'm not convinced that they were shooting the truck with "soft projectiles" the entire time. The people in the truck sure didn't think they were non lethal judging by the audio, until the end..

Personally I think they ambushed these guys.. They did it in the middle of nowhere.. And at least one was gonna die that day, if not all. The rest got lucky they didn't get out of the truck.


That said I am flat amazed at how calm and collected the audio was on the video given the circumstances..

Depends on what side of the equation you're on to call the roadblock an ambush.

Once the Fed's started shooting when the truck begins rounding the curve I knew someone is going to die. They're driving on a blind curve with a snowbank and the cops are popping off rounds. That's some Wild West type shit.

What's weird is the FBI sniper(s) purposely didn't tell the investigators they fired any rounds. They tried to kill him before he was completely out of the truck and yet didn't report it? Something is seriously wrong with that. When police are involved in a shooting every round is accounted for.

Like I said, the State Troopers granted his wish and did a decent job. They were instructed to end it on that road and they did. He asked them to execute him. The Fed's on the other hand are doing him dirty and have been out to fuck the ranchers for years.

This whole deal pushed good people to the point they snapped. They went about it the wrong way but it's a good example of law abiding citizens, up to the point of the refuge being taken over, being fucked hard by our government. I think it's important to know how they got to this point to understand how it ended. This was no overnight deal. 95% of the story happens long before the Refuge standoff.

 

[t&y]

Hmmm Imagine how that shooting would have went down if they didn't run from the initial stop... Oh never mind.

 

[Outdrive1]

It was a felony stop. Not following directions at that point is probably going to get you shot.

Why wouldn't there be a felony stop on an armed guy occupying a Federal building? Not only that he's made it known he wanted to die and he wasn't going to be taken into custody. This is a ridiculous argument IMO. He wasn't a random guy stopped in the middle of bfe that was randomly gunned down. He was stopped in the middle of nowhere so innocent people wouldn't be caught in a gun fight with this idiot.

 

[jpf091959]

suicide by cop. I don't have a lot of empathy for these people who don't obey the orders of someone in authority with a gun pointed at you.

 

[Backlash]

I have to say, I've had the fortune and misfortune to work with people at the federal level on more than one occasion. They are like everyone else in every other profession around the world. Some are the absolute best trained and sound individuals you could imagine, while others only earned their badge and gun because they had a Master's Degree in psychology and underwater basket weaving. There are good and bad in all career fields and this is no different.

It's unfortunate that people were screwed with over the land deal and it's unfortunate that someone put themselves in a position to have their life taken at the hands of a law enforcement officer.

 

[Kylemenz1]

He did have a gun on him. He did say there was going to be a blood bath if they tried to arrest him. He did run from the police. He did not comply with direct orders.

He did deserve what he got.

Listen to the cops and don't get shot. Seems pretty simple to me.

 

[rivermobster]

It was a felony stop. Not following directions at that point is probably going to get you shot.

Why wouldn't there be a felony stop on an armed guy occupying a Federal building? Not only that he's made it known he wanted to die and he wasn't going to be taken into custody. This is a ridiculous argument IMO. He wasn't a random guy stopped in the middle of bfe that was randomly gunned down. He was stopped in the middle of nowhere so innocent people wouldn't be caught in a gun fight with this idiot.

This. ^^^

And think about this...

Glamis got fucked big time, by some lying sack of shit with an agenda.

The court sided with him, and the BLM shut down acres and acres of land.

It's just now being reopened again. Through years of perseverance by the ASA, we are finally getting back what was ours.

Nobody took over any buildings...
Nobody pulled out a gun...
Nobody threatened anyone...

Amazing huh? Who woulda thunk.

 

[C-2]

This. ^^^


Nobody took over any buildings...
Nobody pulled out a gun...
Nobody threatened anyone...

Amazing huh? Who woulda thunk.

Exactly.

I have also worked on numerous Eminent Domain cases (I have 3 of them in front of me now pertaining to the Alameda Corridor-East) and I have never seen anybody do the things you outlined-above. People get pissed, but know their redress is thru the courts, and not by playing Wild, Wild West.

Who do those people think they are, Apple, Inc.?

 

[Old Texan]

LE does a dangerous job and put their lives at risk every time they take to the street. They have to be cautious and alert at all times for idiots that commit crimes and carry weapons.

Arm chair QBing is a far cry from the danger LE faces live in these situations. If an officer is facing down an armed perp, I have no issue whatsoever with the perp ending up dead. No officers life is worth risking to an armed criminal intent on fighting arrest.

Society has a fucked up view when they condemn LE or Military doing a job in which most cannot even begin to understand the danger faced.

 

[Go-Fly]

I still don't understand where people break the law, have guns and run from the police and then somehow, think they have a right to dictate how law enforcement handles their arrest. You see it all the time on the news. Johnny was so misunderstood, never mind the four attempted murder charges, if you would of asked him nicely, I'm sure he would of put the gun down. There was just no reason to shot him five times, hell, it's been two years since he last shot at the police. He was trying to change and then they show a picture of him in his 8th grade graduation gown. The only good out of this whole thing is that we didn't have four bodies along side the road. People moving around inside the SUV taking video's or going for guns, is just asking for a bullet. Police only react to your actions. They are not mind readers. Then I always like the statement " I was so afraid", no shit.

 

[RiverDave]

they both should have listened to the cops. It's the world we live in.

And the ending was even worse. Guy was a dumbazz from what I saw in that vid. Sad he lost his life.

That's pretty much exactly what they did!

Well, I did leave the part out about not doing as you were told to do, and trying to run a road block...

So I guess you're right after all. [emoji106]

Maybe you oughta go back and reread some shit if you think they kicked anybody out of anything, and had some kind of armed stand off.. That's not what happened at all Joe. The building was vacant. Nobody was walking around guns drawn threatening anyone etc.. Did they have guns on them? Sure.. But hell I ran into some friends walking into the mexican restaurant the other day, and both him and his wife were open carrying.. Didn't seem to bother anybody?

They are ranchers.. They are all gonna have guns.

Depends on what side of the equation you're on to call the roadblock an ambush.

Once the Fed's started shooting when the truck begins rounding the curve I knew someone is going to die. They're driving on a blind curve with a snowbank and the cops are popping off rounds. That's some Wild West type shit.

What's weird is the FBI sniper(s) purposely didn't tell the investigators they fired any rounds. They tried to kill him before he was completely out of the truck and yet didn't report it? Something is seriously wrong with that. When police are involved in a shooting every round is accounted for.

Like I said, the State Troopers granted his wish and did a decent job. They were instructed to end it on that road and they did. He asked them to execute him. The Fed's on the other hand are doing him dirty and have been out to fuck the ranchers for years.

This whole deal pushed good people to the point they snapped. They went about it the wrong way but it's a good example of law abiding citizens, up to the point of the refuge being taken over, being fucked hard by our government. I think it's important to know how they got to this point to understand how it ended. This was no overnight deal. 95% of the story happens long before the Refuge standoff.

What is being done to them is straight criminal. Where the ranchers fucked up is they have no clear message, marketing, and they came off like a bunch of buffoons, especially with some of the other yahoo's that joined in on that program.

To paint just a simple picture of what is going on, it is just a giant land grab from the Federal Government, and some people saying "Hey wait a minute... This isn't legal? This isn't constitutional? This isn't even morally right?" What is at stake is considerably larger though. Because if the ranchers prove their case and win, then the Feds lose Billions, and a lot of control on a lot of fronts, and quite simply they are going to do whatever they have to do to make sure that doesn't happen.. Including killing people.

If the Rancher's win their argument and prove unconstitutional.. Then the BLM loses everything in red in one shot (what do you figure that's worth?).. Also decreases their authority and power exponentially.



Look at that map and do the math.. Why are all the West states Red? (think about it, the answer is simple)

Where they made their biggest mistake was at the refuge.. There was no leadership, their main spokesmen was anything but a spokesmen.. They kept getting sidetracked with all these ridiculous offshoots (which stems from decades of frustration one can only assume), instead of focusing on the key points. They had no clear plan, clear goals and objectives, etc..

It's really unfortunate because they came off like a bunch of buffoons, on a marquis issue that is happening right now in this country.

Hmmm Imagine how that shooting would have went down if they didn't run from the initial stop... Oh never mind.

These people have been fucked by the government for decades.. It has come down to a point where they have literally made a stand in life. They are then on their way to meet a local Sheriff to discuss in detail the issues and resolution. You want them to stop because the same people that have persecuted them asked them too? And then those same people ambushed them?

I realize your a cop man.. But even the cops in this situation are scratching their heads at the Feds actions on this one and saying "Uhhh... They were pumping rounds in this deal waaayyy before it was necessary, and they are lying about it."

He wasn't a random guy stopped in the middle of bfe that was randomly gunned down. He was stopped in the middle of nowhere so innocent people wouldn't be caught in a gun fight with this idiot.

You are correct he wasn't some random guy or people. These were people that took a stand against the federal government, and it was national news (both good and bad).. They were on their way to meet with a local Sheriff to discuss the issues and work a resolution, that could have potentially had negative impacts for the Federal government on a much larger scale.. which opens Pandora's box Discussion of States rights vs Federal.. The purpose of BLM, the governments ability to actually own land (which they aren't allowed to constitutionally), the entire land grab deal that's going on, and what the land is actually being used for etc.. The FEDS were not going to let that happen on any level, especially when they were winning the "PR campaign" because these guys completely screwed the pooch with the Media.. (which brings up other things as well, but to stay on point)

So you are correct.. A location was chosen, next to a blind corner, and the strategy is simple. These people in the last 90 days have not done one thing that the Feds have asked.. Previous to that for the last five decades have more or less told the Feds to fuck off. So the Feds are going to tell them to pull over.. (Yeah that's gonna happen), on the way to meet with a local Sheriff. The Feds then place a roadblock in a position where a vehicle could under no circumstances stop even if the guy wanted too. The vehicle is now a threat, and it gives you open license to shoot at the vehicle. That's the type of shit that happened back in the 50's to black people on country roads and was called "legal."

suicide by cop. I don't have a lot of empathy for these people who don't obey the orders of someone in authority with a gun pointed at you.

I'd be real interested in your level of Empathy for the Founding Fathers? Not saying these guys are of that caliber.. But they are being fucked by the government, and they took a stand to say "enough is enough." If you think asking politely and conforming and obeying is going to institute change then you are on planet mars..

He did have a gun on him. He did say there was going to be a blood bath if they tried to arrest him. He did run from the police. He did not comply with direct orders.

He did deserve what he got.

Listen to the cops and don't get shot. Seems pretty simple to me.

The direct orders from the same people that are doing a bunch of illegal shit across the board to try and put them out of business and destroy their lives? That's the people they should comply with?

This. ^^^

And think about this...

Glamis got fucked big time, by some lying sack of shit with an agenda.

The court sided with him, and the BLM shut down acres and acres of land.

It's just now being reopened again. Through years of perseverance by the ASA, we are finally getting back what was ours.

Nobody took over any buildings...
Nobody pulled out a gun...
Nobody threatened anyone...

Amazing huh? Who woulda thunk.

Joe I'm glad you brought up that example.. Because you consider that a victory, and I look at it as a total loss.. Where was the consequence? What was the reaction to the action?

What happened to the guy that was in your words the "lying sack of shit?" Did anything happen to them for falsifying environmental reports? Joe Q Public was unable to use their own land for how many years? Was the ASA reimbursed all of the money that was raised and spent to fight that in court? Was the lying sack of shit or the environmental groups that supported that forced to pay the estimated fees that would have been collected? (Which brings up another cluster fuck.. of why do we even have to pay fees to use our own fucking land for recreational purposes that aren't harming anyone?)

What if any were any consequences to the action? What you are suggesting and are ok with goes against a basic "absolute" in Science/Nature/etc.. For every action there is a reaction. Where is the reaction in this scenario?

People get pissed, but know their redress is thru the courts, and not by playing Wild, Wild West.

They are ranchers.. I'm not sure they were "playing" Wild Wild West, but rather they are living in the "Wild Wild West." If you think about how much this country has changed in 50 years.. It's not hard to understand how people that have been living on a Ranch for 100's of years (generation after generation) might look at this new program we got going on and say "How the hell did this happen? This isn't anything like what it's supposed to be?"

Rewind where you are sitting 100 years (not that long when you really think about it.) The relationship between the citizens, the state, and the Feds was COMPLETELY different. Most of these agencies aren't even 50 years old? They came out of nowhere with no real power or authority, and somehow someway they are now the absolute say so in what happens? Half the shit the BLM is doing across the country they have absolutely no right to do, and rest assured it certainly wasn't the intention of those that created it to become what it is!!

You get fucked by the Feds... and the solution is to go to Federal Court for resolution because somehow they aren't related and connected? Meanwhile, the Feds are paying the salaries of everyone in the building.. That is destined to be a fair and impartial deal. This is exactly why they tried to handle it on a state level, and to put it bluntly the Feds killed this guy for it.. And All the other major players involved in this, are now facing LIFE SENTENCES!!

Who did they hurt? What actually transpired here to justify a life sentence? Did they murder people or something? Or did they just get tired of the BLM burning down their neighbors houses.. Getting prosecuted in court for lighting a fire that burned a couple hundred acres of BLM land (no big deal).. Yet when the BLM has their prescribed burns, and it jumps property lines nobody complains, and their is no recourse even if someone did?

This shit goes on and on..

The fact is you don't care because you haven't figured out how it directly effects you.. But it is directly effecting us. From the food that we eat, right down to where you can and cannot vacation.

The real problem is there has to be a change, but nobody has figured out (to date) what that change will be or how to do it. The answer certainly isn't found in the Federal Courts though because they are not impartial. For me personally I believe the answer is found in State's rights and the Constitution, and the complete revamping and shrinking of the Federal government. It was never intended to be this giant all controlling thing that it has turned into.

Which takes us all the way back to why I have a confederate flag hanging on my wall. Because to sum it up best "It represents a level of Freedom and State's rights that we as Americans will never know."

RD

 

[RiverDave]

Ah what the fuck do I know.. People I consider to be reasonable and normal are saying you just surrender at every opportunity.. And half the country is contemplating voting for a career criminal with no accomplishments, or a flat out admitted socialist.. I think I'm losing touch with reality.. Lol. Because this seems so bizarre to me I feel like I landed in the twilight zone.

 

[Andy01]

Maybe you oughta go back and reread some shit if you think they kicked anybody out of anything, and had some kind of armed stand off.. That's not what happened at all Joe. The building was vacant. Nobody was walking around guns drawn threatening anyone etc.. Did they have guns on them? Sure.. But hell I ran into some friends walking into the mexican restaurant the other day, and both him and his wife were open carrying.. Didn't seem to bother anybody?

They are ranchers.. They are all gonna have guns.



What is being done to them is straight criminal. Where the ranchers fucked up is they have no clear message, marketing, and they came off like a bunch of buffoons, especially with some of the other yahoo's that joined in on that program.

To paint just a simple picture of what is going on, it is just a giant land grab from the Federal Government, and some people saying "Hey wait a minute... This isn't legal? This isn't constitutional? This isn't even morally right?" What is at stake is considerably larger though. Because if the ranchers prove their case and win, then the Feds lose Billions, and a lot of control on a lot of fronts, and quite simply they are going to do whatever they have to do to make sure that doesn't happen.. Including killing people.

If the Rancher's win their argument and prove unconstitutional.. Then the BLM loses everything in red in one shot (what do you figure that's worth?).. Also decreases their authority and power exponentially.

View attachment 471236

Look at that map and do the math.. Why are all the West states Red? (think about it, the answer is simple)

Where they made their biggest mistake was at the refuge.. There was no leadership, their main spokesmen was anything but a spokesmen.. They kept getting sidetracked with all these ridiculous offshoots (which stems from decades of frustration one can only assume), instead of focusing on the key points. They had no clear plan, clear goals and objectives, etc..

It's really unfortunate because they came off like a bunch of buffoons, on a marquis issue that is happening right now in this country.



These people have been fucked by the government for decades.. It has come down to a point where they have literally made a stand in life. They are then on their way to meet a local Sheriff to discuss in detail the issues and resolution. You want them to stop because the same people that have persecuted them asked them too? And then those same people ambushed them?

I realize your a cop man.. But even the cops in this situation are scratching their heads at the Feds actions on this one and saying "Uhhh... They were pumping rounds in this deal waaayyy before it was necessary, and they are lying about it."



You are correct he wasn't some random guy or people. These were people that took a stand against the federal government, and it was national news (both good and bad).. They were on their way to meet with a local Sheriff to discuss the issues and work a resolution, that could have potentially had negative impacts for the Federal government on a much larger scale.. which opens Pandora's box Discussion of States rights vs Federal.. The purpose of BLM, the governments ability to actually own land (which they aren't allowed to constitutionally), the entire land grab deal that's going on, and what the land is actually being used for etc.. The FEDS were not going to let that happen on any level, especially when they were winning the "PR campaign" because these guys completely screwed the pooch with the Media.. (which brings up other things as well, but to stay on point)

So you are correct.. A location was chosen, next to a blind corner, and the strategy is simple. These people in the last 90 days have not done one thing that the Feds have asked.. Previous to that for the last five decades have more or less told the Feds to fuck off. So the Feds are going to tell them to pull over.. (Yeah that's gonna happen), on the way to meet with a local Sheriff. The Feds then place a roadblock in a position where a vehicle could under no circumstances stop even if the guy wanted too. The vehicle is now a threat, and it gives you open license to shoot at the vehicle. That's the type of shit that happened back in the 50's to black people on country roads and was called "legal."



I'd be real interested in your level of Empathy for the Founding Fathers? Not saying these guys are of that caliber.. But they are being fucked by the government, and they took a stand to say "enough is enough." If you think asking politely and conforming and obeying is going to institute change then you are on planet mars..



The direct orders from the same people that are doing a bunch of illegal shit across the board to try and put them out of business and destroy their lives? That's the people they should comply with?



Joe I'm glad you brought up that example.. Because you consider that a victory, and I look at it as a total loss.. Where was the consequence? What was the reaction to the action?

What happened to the guy that was in your words the "lying sack of shit?" Did anything happen to them for falsifying environmental reports? Joe Q Public was unable to use their own land for how many years? Was the ASA reimbursed all of the money that was raised and spent to fight that in court? Was the lying sack of shit or the environmental groups that supported that forced to pay the estimated fees that would have been collected? (Which brings up another cluster fuck.. of why do we even have to pay fees to use our own fucking land for recreational purposes that aren't harming anyone?)

What if any were any consequences to the action? What you are suggesting and are ok with goes against a basic "absolute" in Science/Nature/etc.. For every action there is a reaction. Where is the reaction in this scenario?



They are ranchers.. I'm not sure they were "playing" Wild Wild West, but rather they are living in the "Wild Wild West." If you think about how much this country has changed in 50 years.. It's not hard to understand how people that have been living on a Ranch for 100's of years (generation after generation) might look at this new program we got going on and say "How the hell did this happen? This isn't anything like what it's supposed to be?"

Rewind where you are sitting 100 years (not that long when you really think about it.) The relationship between the citizens, the state, and the Feds was COMPLETELY different. Most of these agencies aren't even 50 years old? They came out of nowhere with no real power or authority, and somehow someway they are now the absolute say so in what happens? Half the shit the BLM is doing across the country they have absolutely no right to do, and rest assured it certainly wasn't the intention of those that created it to become what it is!!

You get fucked by the Feds... and the solution is to go to Federal Court for resolution because somehow they aren't related and connected? Meanwhile, the Feds are paying the salaries of everyone in the building.. That is destined to be a fair and impartial deal. This is exactly why they tried to handle it on a state level, and to put it bluntly the Feds killed this guy for it.. And All the other major players involved in this, are now facing LIFE SENTENCES!!

Who did they hurt? What actually transpired here to justify a life sentence? Did they murder people or something? Or did they just get tired of the BLM burning down their neighbors houses.. Getting prosecuted in court for lighting a fire that burned a couple hundred acres of BLM land (no big deal).. Yet when the BLM has their prescribed burns, and it jumps property lines nobody complains, and their is no recourse even if someone did?

This shit goes on and on..

The fact is you don't care because you haven't figured out how it directly effects you.. But it is directly effecting us. From the food that we eat, right down to where you can and cannot vacation.

The real problem is there has to be a change, but nobody has figured out (to date) what that change will be or how to do it. The answer certainly isn't found in the Federal Courts though because they are not impartial. For me personally I believe the answer is found in State's rights and the Constitution, and the complete revamping and shrinking of the Federal government. It was never intended to be this giant all controlling thing that it has turned into.

Which takes us all the way back to why I have a confederate flag hanging on my wall. Because to sum it up best "It represents a level of Freedom and State's rights that we as Americans will never know."

RD

Boy you eat your fuck'n Wheaties this morning!! :thumbsup