Fast 21 V Drive

[vdcruiser]

Anyone here trying to make a 21' Howard cruiser go fast. Like to hear some details.

 

[fmo24]

I think 420HOA has one. Big blown motor. Maybe PM him ?

 

[WESTERNAERO]

Anyone here trying to make a 21' Howard cruiser go fast. Like to hear some details.

Don't you own a Howard cruiser that you did a lot of work to?

 

[vdcruiser]

Don't you own a Howard cruiser that you did a lot of work to?

Yes I have been messing with it for quite a while, but I would like to see what others have done and what results they got.

 

[WESTERNAERO]

Oh, okay. I'm curious also. I'll be re-rigging my Dimarco (same bottom as yours) this winter. I'd like to know stut angle and distance, plate length, engine location, etc. also.

 

[vdcruiser]

I can tell you what I've done to mine. My strut angle is 7.5 deg. and the rear of the barrel is 23.5" from the transom, (was 10 deg and 17" from transom. Phil Bergeron made the strut for me and gave me advice as to where to put it. I believe he put the centerline of the barrel closer to the bottom than it was too. The plates are the ones that came with the boat when I bought it new in 1983. The outer edge is 8 5/8" off the transom and the center edge is 10" off the transom and there is a 3" gap between the plates. I did some work on the plate recess though. I had to deepen it about 1/16" at the transom. If you put a straight edge under the bottom and plate it would hit right under the transom and leave a gap from there forward for several inches. I other words it had a "hook" in the bottom caused by the plate recess. I also filled and faired the bottom about 3' to 4' forward of the transom back to the transom. I don't know what others have but mine has a little rocker in the last 3' to 4' feet of the bottom. That just what it had after I straightened the bottom. The engine is pretty close to the transom. I just put it far enough back to clear the seats. I can give you the exact distance at some point. These boats are pretty heavy and in my opinion the weight close to the transom helps carry the bow. I also have the battery behind the engine. I have not lengthened the inner strakes like some recommend, but would like to talk to someone that has to see if it might help, also like to know what moving the engine forward would do. If you have any other questions let me know. Hope someone that has one of these boats going fast will reply.

 

[WESTERNAERO]

Here's where I'm at now. I am planning on making a new strut so I can easily take out 1.00 degree without modifying the shaft hole. However I'm not sure if it needs to be moved forward. Right now I think I pretty close to where you are at. If I make the the plates 2.00" longer wouldn't I be accomplishing the same thing? I'm sure if George or Racey see this they'll tell me I'm wrong, but that's okay I'm sure they'll explain why. My engine is also very far back in the boat, and I kinda agree with you in thinking that these boats need the weight further back to carry the nose.

 

[vdcruiser]

Ok, I have heard people say that extending the plates has the same effect as moving the strut forward, but I really don't know. If you are going to go to the trouble of building and installing a new strut be sure you put it in the optimal location and at the optimal angle. Talk to Phil Bergeron,(Bergeron Engineering in Meza AZ.) he knows a lot about making these things run and handle. Its important to get things in the right location, don't let the existing shaft hole dictate what you do. Its not that hard to change it, I did it myself. Phil kept telling me that the centerline of the V drive needed to be at least 106/108 inches from the transom. When I made the changes the V drive went forward 13", its 110" from the transom and almost under the dash.

 

[WESTERNAERO]

I wonder why all these boats were setup so differently when they all had the same bottom. The setup I have now is what came originally on the boat from Dimarco. You changed a lot and ended up with something pretty close to mine, what where these builders thinking I wonder?

 

[420HOA]

My Howard was built for for Lew Larson in '86, he had Howard lay it up to his dimensions and weight. That said I have had that boat to 98 MPH on a three blade with 29's in a C-500 box with 1075 HP. I put in a blast plate and a shorter prop shaft leaving a 1/4" between blast plate an prop ear. That made a huge difference. I have not been able to test it since I added a nickel between the v drive and the shaft and the new exhaust.
Ironically Lew has been my wifes family friend forever, and she road the boat as a kid.

 

[WESTERNAERO]

My Howard was built for for Lew Larson in '86, he had Howard lay it up to his dimensions and weight. That said I have had that boat to 98 MPH on a three blade with 29's in a C-500 box with 1075 HP. I put in a blast plate and a shorter prop shaft leaving a 1/4" between blast plate an prop ear. That made a huge difference. I have not been able to test it since I added a nickel between the v drive and the shaft and the new exhaust.
Ironically Lew has been my wifes family friend forever, and she road the boat as a kid.

When you say huge difference, what do you mean exactly? Difference in ride, speed, handling, etc? Do you know what dimensions you have as far as the strut, v-drive, engine distance from the transom, strut angle and length of plates?

 

[vdcruiser]

I think back in the 70's and 80's most of these boats were set up as ski/pleasure boats and no one was using as much power as we have now. Some were set up for ski racing, but they probably didn't have as much power as what we are using now. I knew Bob Teague had used one for ski racing and I asked him for some setup info, which he gave me, but it was different from what I got from Phil Bergeron. How much power do you plan to use and what do you hope to get out of it? What do you use it for mainly? Most of the time I just cruise around in mine at 2000 rpm's or less,( 25 to 30 mph with 48 % gears), but occasionally I like to mix it up with the local jet boats and outboards.

 

[420HOA]

When you say huge difference, what do you mean exactly? Difference in ride, speed, handling, etc? Do you know what dimensions you have as far as the strut, v-drive, engine distance from the transom, strut angle and length of plates?

All of the above, faster out of the hole and top end, handles way better the nose used to hunt side to side about an
inch now thats gone. Pulls a little to the right now on full power thats why I added the nickel might take a couple more to find the sweet spot. Don't know the dimensions and the boats in Parker.

 

[FrznJim]

You should talk to Jim Lange. He rerigged a 21 Howard for me about six years ago, relocated new strut, 1-1/8 propshaft, blast plate, T400. That boat rode like it was on rails, 81 mph with 760 hp twin turbo. Shoulda kept that boat and asked Danny to put a new DCM deck on it, back then. Oh well, hindside is always 20/20....

 

[vdcruiser]

Thanks for the info, nice boat. I've done all of the things you mentioned and some bottom work also. Trying to see if anyone is trying something I haven't heard of yet, I should talk to Jim anyway, he knows his stuff. I like the new decks too.

 

[78Southwind]

I just bought a 75 Spectra V-Drive from Greg Fuller's (RIP) father. Jim Lange (High Tech Marine) rigged the boat and rebuilt the engine around 2008.

The strut angle is 7.8* with a 6" drop. The distance between the transom and strut is 25". The cavitation plates are 9.5" from the transom and end 7.25" from gunnels. The distance between the engine and transom is 20". The centerline of the gear box is 100" from the transom, 4" from the bulk head and about 15" from the deck/dash. Greg also did some work to the bottom and put a T400 in the boat.

I sent Jim a PM and this is the information he gave me. The strut was replaced with a fabricated steel drop thru and strut braces, new rails and mounts, relocated V-drive replacing the original Champion V drive with a rebuilt casale split case, new A22 prop shaft, new Menkens prop, installed new "adjustable" cav plates (originally had NO plates). I never drove it, but from what I've been told, it handles well. The transmission was built by a guy that used to work for Art Carr. I believe it has a Scat steel crank and rods, JE pistons. All new Manley Severe Duty valves, new oil pump, rings, bearings.

I don't think Greg ever dynoed the engine after Jim rebuilt it but the engine was originally owned by Danny Donahue (RIP) and he dynoed the engine at Westech Performance in 2004. I sent Steve Brule an e-mail and he confirmed that the engine made 954ft/lbs of torque@4500rpm and 946 HP@5600 with 6.5lbs of boost.

I found some of Greg's old posts...

...Mines a 75, heavy lay up ( bottom is 1 3/8" thick) 4 full stringers. blown 572. I re-rigged it, moved the prop 10" forward, reduced the angle by 3 degrees to alleviate the stern lift problem.

...Whoever builds Hi Tech Marines trannys is the bomb.

...Blown 572 I will trust Danny on the HP, Replaced the champion with a 12 degree casale moved forward right up to the bulkhead with 37, reduced propshaft angle, new custom steel strut, blastplate at the stock strut location prop forward about 10" My prop is not correct but its running about mid 90s and get there in a hurry.

...Gps'ed it today... 50 @ 3000, 65 @ 4k... 85 @ 5k. the prop I'm running doesn't carry the bow worth a shit and I didnt want Wheeler to soil my seat so that was it...The way I see it if I can ever get my Menkins prop duplicated I should hit at least 107 at 6k : )

...I rode in Lynch's boat at 113, felt faster than mine, but I wasn't driving... my pile has around 1000 hp, 37's in the box, 11.75 X 16.5 Menkins 3 blade. I can hit 5400 with a little more than half throttle, I've stood on it from there a few times but not about to look at the tach?

...I have a new Menkins 2 blade that was originally a 11 3/4" X 17. I ran it once and it vibrated my boat. I just got it back from Valley Prop service after having it cut down to 11 1/2 X 16 1/2". You are welcome to give it a try. I also have a Kindsvater 3 blade 11 1/2" X 16 1/2" with only last season on it, does not work well on my boat it gets squirrely above 80, I have Brian At VPS working on that one now to try and match a 3 blade Menkins that works perfectly but is about done hour wise. I had no luck getting in touch with Dallas @ Menkins last year that is why I bought the Kindsvater. I would bet you would be happy with the 3 blade Menkins, I am going to try to Get Dallas to duplicate the one I have.

 

[vdcruiser]

Pretty neat that you got Gregg's boat. Post up some pics and video when you get it running, like to see some pics of the rigging, V drive location ,etc,etc.

 

[78Southwind]

Pretty neat that you got Gregg's boat. Post up some pics and video when you get it running, like to see some pics of the rigging, V drive location ,etc,etc.

It's going to be a while before I get it back together but I have some of Greg's old pictures and I can take new ones since the boat is now at my house. Just let me know what you need.

 

[vdcruiser]

Thanks 78southwind, that's one thing I wanted to see, where the v-drive is mounted. I think mine is a little further forward,(110" from the transom), but my strut angle is 7.5 deg and that would put it further forward.

 

[78Southwind]

Thanks 78southwind, that's one thing I wanted to see, where the v-drive is mounted. I think mine is a little further forward,(110" from the transom), but my strut angle is 7.5 deg and that would put it further forward.

The center-line of the gear box is 100" from the transom, 4" from the bulk head and about 15" from the deck/dash.

 

[SPECTRABRENT]

It's going to be a while before I get it back together but I have some of Greg's old pictures and I can take new ones since the boat is now at my house. Just let me know what you need.

78Southwind,

What do the plates look like?

Is the steering Calgo?

Good luck with your Spectra!

Brent

 

[78Southwind]

78Southwind,

What do the plates look like?

Is the steering Calgo?

Good luck with your Spectra!

Brent

I put up a couple plate pictures. They're about 9.5 " from the transom. Yes, the boat has Calgo steering. Thank you...

 

[SPECTRABRENT]

I just bought a 75 Spectra V-Drive from Greg Fuller's (RIP) father. Jim Lange (High Tech Marine) rigged the boat and rebuilt the engine around 2008.

I haven't measured the strut angle (from Greg's post it looks to be 9*) but the distance between the transom and strut is 25". The cavitation plates are 9.5" from the transom and end 7.25" from gunnels. The distance between the engine and transom is 20". The center-line of the gear box is 100" from the transom, 4" from the bulk head and about 15" from the deck/dash. Greg also did some work to the bottom and put a T400 in the boat.

I sent Jim a PM and this is the information he gave me. The strut was replaced with a fabricated steel drop thru and strut braces, new rails and mounts, relocated V-drive replacing the original Champion V drive with a rebuilt casale split case, new A22 prop shaft, new Menkens prop, installed new "adjustable" cav plates (originally had NO plates). I never drove it, but from what I've been told, it handles well. The transmission was built by a guy that used to work for Art Carr. I believe it has a Scat steel crank and rods, JE pistons. All new Manley Severe Duty valves, new oil pump, rings, bearings.

I don't think Greg ever dynoed the engine after Jim rebuilt it but the engine was originally owned by Danny Donahue (RIP) and he dynoed the engine at Westech Performance in 2004. I sent Steve Brule an e-mail and he confirmed that the engine made 954ft/lbs of torque@4500rpm and 946 HP@5600 with 6.5lbs of boost.

I found some of Greg's old posts...

...Mines a 75, heavy lay up ( bottom is 1 3/8" thick) 4 full stringers. blown 572. I re-rigged it, moved the prop 10" forward, reduced the angle by 3 degrees to alleviate the stern lift problem.

...Whoever builds Hi Tech Marines trannys is the bomb.

...Gps'ed it today... 50 @ 3000, 65 @ 4k... 85 @ 5k. the prop I'm running doesn't carry the bow worth a shit and I didnt want Wheeler to soil my seat so that was it...The way I see it if I can ever get my Menkins prop duplicated I should hit at least 107 at 6k : )

...I rode in Lynch's boat at 113, felt faster than mine, but I wasn't driving... my pile has around 1000 hp, 37's in the box, 11.75 X 16.5 Menkins 3 blade. I can hit 5400 with a little more than half throttle, I've stood on it from there a few times but not about to look at the tach?

...I have a new Menkins 2 blade that was originally a 11 3/4" X 17. I ran it once and it vibrated my boat. I just got it back from Valley Prop service after having it cut down to 11 1/2 X 16 1/2". You are welcome to give it a try. I also have a Kindsvater 3 blade 11 1/2" X 16 1/2" with only last season on it, does not work well on my boat it gets squirrely above 80, I have Brian At VPS working on that one now to try and match a 3 blade Menkins that works perfectly but is about done hour wise. I had no luck getting in touch with Dallas @ Menkins last year that is why I bought the Kindsvater. I would bet you would be happy with the 3 blade Menkins, I am going to try to Get Dallas to duplicate the one I have.

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ARe the plates on a hinge?

Thanks,

Brent

 

[78Southwind]

No hinge. They're bolted to a mounting block.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[vdcruiser]

I seem to remember a 21' Howard named something" Eagle" , maybe "Screaming Eagle" that was pretty fast, anyone know anything about that boat? I believe it was burgundy and white.

 

[SPECTRABRENT]

I seem to remember a 21' Howard named something" Eagle" , maybe "Screaming Eagle" that was pretty fast, anyone know anything about that boat? I believe it was burgundy and white.

I did see that boat run at Lake Ming drag races. I think the name was "Bald Eagle".

Thanks,


Brent

 

[vdcruiser]

Thanks Brent, that's the one. Anyone know any details about it?

 

[78Southwind]

Can you guys put up some pictures of your blast plates? The one on the Spectra is a little small. What do you guys think the cost would be to install a bigger blast plate and the cost for the blast plate it's self (aluminum or stainless steel)?

 

[vdcruiser]

Looks like someone put a filler in the recess where the original strut was. I made mine out of .090" thk. stainless and had a guy with a sheetmetal brake bend it up to suit the shape of the bottom. After it was made I laid out the bottom and routed it out with a router. As for the size, I made note of where the bottom was eroding. Basically it is 13" wide at the front of the cav. plate recess and tapers in to 7" wide about 2.5" behind the strut base,( would take it all the way to the strut base if doing it over). I will try to get a picture at some point. Since you don't have a cav.plate recess you probably should take it all the way to the transom, (mine goes all the way to the transom between the cav plates,3" wide and has a hole in it for the rudder stuffing box. Don't know about the cost, depends on how much of the work you do yourself.

 

[alohajeff]

That isn't a blast plate... that is the old strut chopped. I have that exact strut on my 24XS. The only reason to do that is because it is a quick and easy way to keep the hull sealed up. That means the new strut has been moved FAR forward of the original.

Aloha

 

[420HOA]

That isn't a blast plate... that is the old strut chopped. I have that exact strut on my 24XS. The only reason to do that is because it is a quick and easy way to keep the hull sealed up. That means the new strut has been moved FAR forward of the original.

Aloha

Exactly what I was gonna say :thumbsup

 

[vdcruiser]

Did some measuring and took a few,(poor), pictures. Changed dimensions in earlier post and will try to post pictures.

Click on picture and scroll thru.
Didn't know it was going to put up all the pictures in my gallery, O well.

 

[78Southwind]

Did some measuring and took a few,(poor), pictures. Changed dimensions in earlier post and will try to post pictures.

Click on picture and scroll thru.
Didn't know it was going to put up all the pictures in my gallery, O well.

How well does the 2 blade work? Is the blast plate aluminum? If so how durable is it? Do you have to change it out every couple years?

 

[vdcruiser]

2 blade works great, a little vibration taking off, but is smooth at higher speed and is 5/6 mph faster than my 3 blade. 2 blade is 11 1/2 X 16 and 3 blade is 11 3/4 X 16. If I am going to be carrying 3 or 4 people and cruising a lot I use the 3 blade. The blast plate is .090" thk. stainless,(see post # 29), and has been on there 5 or 6 years, and is still ok.

 

[Full Pull]

I seem to remember a 21' Howard named something" Eagle" , maybe "Screaming Eagle" that was pretty fast, anyone know anything about that boat? I believe it was burgundy and white.

(pic from www.v-driveboat.com)

 

[vdcruiser]

Thanks for the picture. I talked to a guy at Bad Attitude Boats in Parker that did some work on this boat back in the day. He said the bottom had been worked on more than once, but he wasn't sure what was done to it, he had done work on the engine and installation. He said they ran it at the drags, in blown gas flat, for giggles and it ran 110 mph and won the first round. Wonder where it is now? Boats name was "Bald Eagle".

 

[Full Pull]

Wonder where it is now?

That pic was taken last month in Parker so it's around...

 

[RiverDave]

How well does the 2 blade work? Is the blast plate aluminum? If so how durable is it? Do you have to change it out every couple years?

That looks like a lot of distance between the prop and the rudder?

Thanks for the picture. I talked to a guy at Bad Attitude Boats in Parker that did some work on this boat back in the day. He said the bottom had been worked on more than once, but he wasn't sure what was done to it, he had done work on the engine and installation. He said they ran it at the drags, in blown gas flat, for giggles and it ran 110 mph and won the first round. Wonder where it is now? Boats name was "Bald Eagle".

For some reason I remember the # being a lot faster then that.. 116 or 118? I remember thinking "Holy fuck that's fast" when I heard about it and that was probably 7-8 years ago.

RD

 

[vdcruiser]

Yeah Dave, the strut/prop has been moved forward 6 1/2" on this deal as well as dropping the shaft angle from 10 to 7 1/2 deg.
I have heard different speeds for that boat, maybe it went 110 in the quarter and faster flat out. Either way its fast. The reason I started this thread was to find out what different people had done to make these boats run really fast. Its hard to get cold hard facts though.

 

[RiverDave]

Yeah Dave, the strut/prop has been moved forward 6 1/2" on this deal as well as dropping the shaft angle from 10 to 7 1/2 deg.
I have heard different speeds for that boat, maybe it went 110 in the quarter and faster flat out. Either way its fast. The reason I started this thread was to find out what different people had done to make these boats run really fast. Its hard to get cold hard facts though.

Those that have the really fast ones don't seem to eager to share.. LOL

RD

 

[SPECTRABRENT]

Any updates on this one?

Brent

 

[vdcruiser]

Nothing new from the gallery, I just pulled the engine out of my Howard to look for water leaks under the engine. Also plan to change the cam and maybe move the engine forward a little. Like to know if moving the engine forward 1" to 1 1/2" will make much difference in the handling. It carries the bow nicely now, don't want to cause it to drag the nose.

 

[Shane Kneisel]

This is a great thread. I'm wondering if any of you have had any updates in the last 10 Years.

 

[sintax]

@vdcruiser is still around on occasion, i'm sure he'll chime in.

Him being an east coast guy, its not someone I run into on the water.

theres still some fast 21' cruisers out there too, sometimes you can even get one of the schiadas off of the trailer. (i joke but i get as much shit about my trailer queen)