Engine Builders (So Cal & AZ)

[Javajoe]

Used to be you would send them to Ilmor but now they and Chrysler no longer support the platform. Best bet for viper rebuilds is exotic engine development in Nevada.

No one in Havasu huh?

 

[Teague_JR]

Sounds like a Teague vs Jasper longevity showdown is needed to settle this....

Like those old castor motor oil commercials where they drain the oil and see which motor lasts the longest

That was the “prolong challenge”

 

[Teague_JR]

No one in Havasu huh?

Not that I’m aware of at least.

 

[poncho]

Did you know John, the original owner? He and I are friends. BTW, that 28 Speedster ran 174. Larry has built all my engines up until I built my Skater. He also built all Predators engines before his relationship with Carson Brummet

This one is in my 66 Chevelle

View attachment 1245895

View attachment 1245896

No I didn't, my friend in Mass bought it from him I believe. The acceleration in that boat is incredible, small world it's now owned by another friend of mine in Oklahoma.

 

[RiverDave]

Is your intention to keep it a 525? Or are you looking for more power?

Before the cheer leading starts on which shop that is an important question.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I love it.. the Merc engine won’t be blue anymore , and the boat will be worthless unless Teague fixes it!!

 

[RiverDave]

I love it.. the Merc engine won’t be blue anymore , and the boat will be worthless unless Teague fixes it!!

Resale value tanks if it’s custom power.. but yes if you upgrade power the resale will be affected depending if it’s a named shop that does the work or Joe Schmoe put on a pro charger.

If it’s refreshed and is basically still stock Merc power the person who does the work becomes less important when it comes to resale but there still is some sway there..

RD

 

[boatnam2]

I love it.. the Merc engine won’t be blue anymore , and the boat will be worthless unless Teague fixes it!!

Could call robbie g and have him build it if timeline isnt a issue.

 

[RiverDave]

To throw another name in the hat Dave at DNE

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Could call robbie g and have him build it if timeline isnt a issue.

Who is robbie g? Does he work on Cummings?

 

[gqchris]

Todd's Performance /Havasu
NHRA Veteran who ran with Big Daddy & Shirley !
It's where everyone ends up when they are tired of subpar work out here!
Does not farm out work / everything in House !
Peace Out.....

My new to me HTM has a brand new motor from Todd. What impressed me was that he graciously spoke with me on the phone when I called him asking about his motor before I bought it. He was so helpful and accomodating. He has my business from here on out.

I have a gift card in the mail for him since I know people calling for "free" advice is never easy or free.

 

[boatnam2]

Who is robbie g? Does he work on Cummings?

Both cummings and goings

 

[gqchris]

Resale value tanks if it’s custom power.. but yes if you upgrade power the resale will be affected depending if it’s a named shop that does the work or Joe Schmoe put on a pro charger.

If it’s refreshed and is basically still stock Merc power the person who does the work becomes less important when it comes to resale but there still is some sway there..

RD

Dave with the older Merc power packages slowly becoming aged out, (496 HO etc), do you think this still holds true as we see the older boats getting repowered? I dont know if its as Important to seasoned boaters but I can see some new to boating folks swaying heavy on it.

 

[HubbaHubbaLife]

I wouldnt use a Jasper big block in even standard applications. I have seen far too many of their engines with low vacuum out of the shoot and far too many with low hour failures. As a mechanic I have had far too many issues with their engines to depend on them and quit using them years ago. The last straw was when they took my 4 bolt main block and gave me back a 2 bolt main and then gave me grief when I called them on it. I cancelled my order and made them return my original engine to be rebuilt locally. I'm pretty sure they don't have an offering for any of the blue motors anyway.

their only saving grace is their warranty, the actual product they put out is nowhere near what it used to be

Word

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

No I didn't, my friend in Mass bought it from him I believe. The acceleration in that boat is incredible, small world it's now owned by another friend of mine in Oklahoma.

That would probably be right. He told me some guy in Boston bought it. Yea, acceleration with that crazy HP in a 28 ft boat. Insane.

And to LOF's point, I agree. Resale value is severely hurt by aftermarket power. It only makes sense if that is of NO concern. You may love your engine guy, but the owner after you. probably have never heard of them. I love Larry BUT, he would only build me stuff for my own special interest stuff where resale is of no concern.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Resale value tanks if it’s custom power.. but yes if you upgrade power the resale will be affected depending if it’s a named shop that does the work or Joe Schmoe put on a pro charger.

If it’s refreshed and is basically still stock Merc power the person who does the work becomes less important when it comes to resale but there still is some sway there..

RD

What is custom power? A 525 with upgraded heads? A cam? Further who would even know if the 525 engine was lightly modified if it was not modified externally.

At this point if the boat is fixed or even fixed with a cam and upgraded valve train the value of the will be higher as the heads/valve train are fixed and upgraded.

There are plenty of qualified people to repair the engine outside of Teague. And the simple fact is if he keeps the blue bits on it, his resale value will be fine. Any broker selling the boat would call a blue 525 with refreshed heads a value for the potential buyer.

There is no need to spend 2x on an engine rebuild for a 20 year old boat to make a couple more grand if/when you resell the boat.

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

What is custom power? A 525 with upgraded heads? A cam? Further who would even know if the 525 engine was lightly modified if it was not modified externally.

At this point if the boat is fixed or even fixed with a cam and upgraded valve train the value of the will be higher as the heads/valve train are fixed and upgraded.

There are plenty of qualified people to repair the engine outside of Teague. And the simple fact is if he keeps the blue bits on it, his resale value will be fine. Any broker selling the boat would call a blue 525 with refreshed heads a value for the potential buyer.

There is no need to spend 2x on an engine rebuild for a 20 year old boat to make a couple more grand if/when you resell the boat.

Guys with 700's, many do stage 1-3 HP upgrades. Me, personally would NEVER purchase a resale boat with 700's other than 100% stock. The top ends of these aren't happy over 5K for extended periods and are not designed for it. Also, if in a M6 drive boat, the transmissions don't take ~800 HP very well.

For the marginal gains, its isn't worth it.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Guys with 700's, many do stage 1-3 HP upgrades. Me, personally would NEVER purchase a resale boat with 700's other than 100% stock. The top ends of these aren't happy over 5K for extended periods and are not designed for it. Also, if in a M6 drive boat, the transmissions don't take ~800 HP very well.

For the marginal gains, its isn't worth it.

Sure. I agree on forced induction applications, and buyer beware, but we are talking an NA big block here. These 525s have well known top end weak points. So having those addressed and adding a little power makes them full custom and to retain resale value these well documented and needed modifications can only done by a Teague?

Didn’t H20 Toie just rebuild one or both of the 525s (edit 600s) in his cigarette? If I followed that story correctly they were not rebuilt by Teague and magically he somehow made money on that boat and didn’t destroy the resale value.

 

[Bpracing1127]

Sure but we are talking an NA big block here. These things have well known top end weak points. So having those addressed and adding a little power makes them full custom?

Didn’t H20 Toie just rebuild one or both of the 525s in cigarette? If I followed that story correctly they were not rebuilt by Teague and magically he somehow made money on that boat and didn’t destroy the resale value.

They were 600’s and I think Mario did the work

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

Sure but we are talking an NA big block here. These things have well known top end weak points. So having those addressed and adding a little power makes them full custom?

Didn’t H20 Toie just rebuild one or both of the 525s in cigarette? If I followed that story correctly they were not rebuilt by Teague and magically he somehow made money on that boat and didn’t destroy the resale value.

"You're right, why did I doubt you" My bad.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

They were 600’s and I think Mario did the work

That’s right. He could have got another $20k in profit if he spent another $30k on rebuilds.

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

That’s right. He could have got another $20k in profit if he spent another $30k on rebuilds.

This is exactly the type of response that encourages the start of a shit stream of arguing. I won't engage.

 

[HOOTER SLED-]

Lol...here we go again.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

This is exactly the type of response that encourages the start of a shit stream of arguing. I won't engage.

Well I quoted someone else, so there is no need to engage. And we seem to have evidence from this very month to suggest that buyers and sellers can transact on boats that have been repaired by qualified shops and repaired boat resale values have not tanked because of it.

These are 20 year old pleasure boats making 400-600 HP. They don’t need to all be repaired by the Nordstrom of boat engine builders, at Nordstrom prices to retain their value.

 

[counterpart7]

Yay another Speed thread!

Simple FACTS. A performance/custom boat with stock merc power or huge name(Teague) will typically sell quicker and for more money than the same boat with a rebuild from Billy Bob’s engine cantina.

Is Teague the only ones that can do it? Fuck no. Are there other reputable shops that have a great name in the industry, absolutely. But you’re average buyer will have never heard of them.

Not sure where some of these exorbitant price differences between Teague and other high end shops comes from. I’ve seen the receipts of a Teague 525 build from a blown up 502. Wasn’t outrageous. Is Teague’s hourly rate 3x more than other shops?? Doubt it.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Yay another Speed thread!

Simple FACTS. A performance/custom boat with stock merc power or huge name(Teague) will typically sell quicker and for more money than the same boat with a rebuild from Billy Bob’s engine cantina.

Is Teague the only ones that can do it? Fuck no. Are there other reputable shops that have a great name in the industry, absolutely. But you’re average buyer will have never heard of them.

Not sure where some of these exorbitant price differences between Teague and other high end shops comes from. I’ve seen the receipts of a Teague 525 build from a blown up 502. Wasn’t outrageous. Is Teague’s hourly rate 3x more than other shops?? Doubt it.

So now a Merc 525 that is freshened up internally by someone other than Teague is no longer a 525? .

The “Average buyer” looks in the hatch and sees the Merc 525. And then sees the receipt of the known issues with that Merc 525 were addressed by a reputable shop and the boat sells for top dollar. There is literally 15 years of history backing that up on 525s

If you have a complete backstory, a reputable shop did the repairs, and the boat runs well and is healthy, the average buyer does not care who fixed it because it still says Merc 525 and is blue.

 

[counterpart7]

So now a Merc 525 that is freshened up internally by someone other than Teague is no longer a 525? .

The “Average buyer” looks in the hatch and sees the Merc 525. And then sees the receipt of the known issues with that Merc 525 were addressed by a reputable shop and the boat sells for top dollar. There is literally 15 years of history backing that up on 525s

If you have a complete backstory, a reputable shop did the repairs, and the boat runs well and is healthy, the average buyer does not care who fixed it because it still says Merc 525 and is blue.

Did I say that? Would you prefer to buy a 525 boat with some no name builder doing the rebuild or someone you’ve heard of, like Teague?

 

[DMF]

Did I say that? Would you prefer to buy a 525 boat with some no name builder doing the rebuild or someone you’ve heard of, like Teague?

Personally, I would prefer Teague.

 

[Bowtiepower00]

I for one would absolutely care who rebuilt a 525 (or any blue motor) in a boat I was going to purchase. But I am not your average boat buyer.

Would it have to be Teague? No. But the seller would have to have documentation that whoever did the work addressed the head gasket, roller rocker, and valve spring issues the engines are known for- and not by replacing them with stock merc parts. Not to mention proof the headers were pressure tested or recently replaced depending on age. Any boat that I could not verify this on, I would budget for a top end or rebuild on top of the purchase price.

I would not run one over 250-300 hours on stock top ends, period. Some guys do and get away with it, and some don’t. And it doesn’t appear to have any correlation to how hard the boat was ran. You can read threads for days over on OSO about 525 failures and rebuilds.

There are plenty of reputable builders out there who can rebuild one, it’s not a magic engine platform. But there are better parts available now to make them run better and last longer between top ends/ rebuilds.

If they were being turned up, then the number of people I trust to do it right would shrink further, as ECM tuning would be involved, and there aren’t many builders I trust to do that right.

 

[rivermobster]

That was the “prolong challenge”

Many years ago now...

There was a shop in Irwindale that took old Ford and Chebby small block engines and mounted em on engine stands.

They blocked the carbs wide open, drained out all the oil and with no coolant, fired em up to see which one would last the longest.

HUGE amounts of people would show up to watch!!! It was a killer promotion!

One year, the rear main seal popped out of one, spewed oil all over the headers and the plants behind the engine and caught everything on fire.

Sure wish someone would do that again. Good times!!!

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I for one would absolutely care who rebuilt a 525 (or any blue motor) in a boat I was going to purchase. But I am not your average boat buyer.

Would it have to be Teague? No. But the seller would have to have documentation that whoever did the work addressed the head gasket, roller rocker, and valve spring issues the engines are known for- and not by replacing them with stock merc parts. Not to mention proof the headers were pressure tested or recently replaced depending on age. Any boat that I could not verify this on, I would budget for a top end or rebuild on top of the purchase price.

I would not run one over 250-300 hours on stock top ends, period. Some guys do and get away with it, and some don’t. And it doesn’t appear to have any correlation to how hard the boat was ran. You can read threads for days over on OSO about 525 failures and rebuilds.

There are plenty of reputable builders out there who can rebuild one, it’s not a magic engine platform. But there are better parts available now to make them run better and last longer between top ends/ rebuilds.

If they were being turned up, then the number of people I trust to do it right would shrink further, as ECM tuning would be involved, and there aren’t many builders I trust to do that right.

Exactly. And none of what you mentioned is specific to a Teague repair.

You like most buyers would rather have it already fixed by a reputable shop when you bought it, and will pay more money for a repaired 525 with a clean bill of health as opposed to running a stock one that is a ticking time bomb.

Are you willing to pay a premium for the used boat because Teague did the work over another reputable shop? Some folks on RDP would.. most boat buyers would not if the engine checked out as healthy and there was supporting documentation.

 

[Bowtiepower00]

Exactly. And none of what you mentioned is specific to a Teague repair.

You like most buyers would rather have it already fixed by a reputable shop when you bought it, and will pay more money for a repaired 525 with a clean bill of health as opposed to running a stock one that is a ticking time bomb.

Are you willing to pay a premium for the used boat because Teague did the work over another reputable shop? Some folks on RDP would.. most boat buyers would not if the engine checked out as healthy and there was supporting documentation.

The big thing is, once I see the name Teague, I know that it was done right. Would I pay a premium? Perhaps I would to some extent.

I have no idea what exact top end costs are post covid, but if I’m looking at 15000 from shop XYZ, and 17500 from Teague, I’d probably just take the boat to Teague- confident that I’d probably get that 2500 back at sales time. And $2500 for piece of mind when I’m out running my boat- or heaven forbid- if I have any issues, is worth it for me.

If the difference is 5000, or 10000, then probably not.

 

[oldschool]

I can see why these blue motors boost the value, they sure hold up well.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

The big thing is, once I see the name Teague, I know that it was done right. Would I pay a premium? Perhaps I would to some extent.

I have no idea what exact top end costs are post covid, but if I’m looking at 15000 from shop XYZ, and 17500 from Teague, I’d probably just take the boat to Teague- confident that I’d probably get that 2500 back at sales time. And $2500 for piece of mind when I’m out running my boat- or heaven forbid- if I have any issues, is worth it for me.

If the difference is 5000, or 10000, then probably not.

I completely agree with you. That is my entire point.. It is a break even at best at resale to spend the Teague money on a 525 rebuild. To say the value of a 20 year old boat with a Merc 525 is destroyed if Teague does not rebuild it is just RDP hyperbole.

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

The big thing is, once I see the name Teague, I know that it was done right. Would I pay a premium? Perhaps I would to some extent.

I have no idea what exact top end costs are post covid, but if I’m looking at 15000 from shop XYZ, and 17500 from Teague, I’d probably just take the boat to Teague- confident that I’d probably get that 2500 back at sales time. And $2500 for piece of mind when I’m out running my boat- or heaven forbid- if I have any issues, is worth it for me.

If the difference is 5000, or 10000, then probably not.

Exactly this.

When someone uses a "non well-known" entity to rebuild Mercury Racing engines, there are a number of folks, to include myself, that will completely exclude even looking seriously at a purchase. Your reasons are solid and echo my thoughts exactly. Everything doesn't revolve around dollars and cents and confidence to run this shit hard while enjoying lake time, is one of those things.

Teague, Sterling and perhaps a few others are on the list of folks that I would take my engine(s) to. They are all well-known and most wouldn't hesitate at purchasing a used boat with the proper documentation, stating engine rebuilds or repairs.

 

[27Daytona]

As I stated in my other thread yesterday, we are going to be doing a full rebuild of our Merc Racing 525.

I am looking for engine builder recommendations between Phoenix and So Cal. I know the regulars like Teague, GT, Paul Pfaff, etc. Looking for someone that I may not have heard of that is reputable.

My buddy works at Jim Grubbs, so will be reaching out to him today.

Who else should I know?!

You don’t really say. Are you looking to rebuild back to OEM Specs or wanting Extra HP?

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Exactly this.

When someone uses a "non well-known" entity to rebuild Mercury Racing engines, there are a number of folks, to include myself, that will completely exclude even looking seriously at a purchase. Your reasons are solid and echo my thoughts exactly. Everything doesn't revolve around dollars and cents and confidence to run this shit hard while enjoying like time, is one of those things.

Teague, Sterling and perhaps a few others are on the list of folks that I would take my engine(s) to. They are all well-known and most wouldn't hesitate at purchasing a used boat with the proper documentation, stating engine rebuilds or repairs.

Seems we are in agreement again. A Teague invoice for an engine rebuild is a known and nice to have, but probably does not destroy any value for your boat at the end of the day vs a competent shop with a good reputation. Some buyers will only consider a rebuild valid if it was done buy a top tier shop. Great for them, I get it, but that isn’t the average buyer of a 20 year old pleasure boat with 500 HP.

Hell you dealt with Merc OEM quality… and the “roll your own” fuel system fix probably added value to your boat.

 

[OldSchoolBoats]

You don’t really say. Are you looking to rebuild back to OEM Specs or wanting Extra HP?

Just want to rebuild and get back on the water. From what I have heard, the new parts to rebuild will increase HP. Not looking to do anything as far as going bigger.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Just want to rebuild and get back on the water. From what I have heard, the new parts to rebuild will increase HP. Not looking to do anything as far as going bigger.

Good plan Joe. I would just rebuild with modern and more durable parts, and take the extra few dozen HP as a consolation prize for your troubles.

 

[Havasu blue label]

Just want to rebuild and get back on the water. From what I have heard, the new parts to rebuild will increase HP. Not looking to do anything as far as going bigger.

pm tomorrow morning

 

[Bajastu]

What’s funny is everyone wants a blue motor in their boat but the cost to rebuild them properly is the achilles heel to ownership. I owned a Hallett with a blown 500efi that was rebuilt at 250 hours by Gary Teague and I sold it before it needed a topend or a complete rebuild (476 hours). However, I was completely honest with the guy that bought it and I told him that around 500 hours, a rebuild was eminent. I agree with all on here that if you have one, the topend or the rebuild should be from a reputable builder with receipts to show proof.

 

[boatnam2]

Its been 4 years but I did a complete rebuild on TCM 800 and drive, think it was close to 23k, 15 or so motor and 7 for drive, one year warranty lake tested pick up and hit the lake. No worries about my water impeller was out blah blah blah after picking up and on first trip. I will think time will be more of an issue than finding a shop, lots of shops but do they have time to even get you out this summer.

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

Seems we are in agreement again. A Teague invoice for an engine rebuild is a known and nice to have, but probably does not destroy any value for your boat at the end of the day vs a competent shop with a good reputation. Some buyers will only consider a rebuild valid if it was done buy a top tier shop. Great for them, I get it, but that isn’t the average buyer of a 20 year old pleasure boat with 500 HP.

Hell you dealt with Merc OEM quality… and the “roll your own” fuel system fix probably added value to your boat.

I would rather not have to change away from a factory system. I felt I had no other choice if I wanted to use my boat.

 

[Big B Hova]

Jasper offers a 1050 motor with a 2 year warranty

 

[counterpart7]

Jasper offers a 1050 motor with a 2 year warranty

View attachment 1245994

 

[boatnam2]

Jasper offers a 1050 motor with a 2 year warranty

View attachment 1245994

Its like a sore dick, you can't beat it!

 

[oldschool]

Jasper offers a 1050 motor with a 2 year warranty

View attachment 1245994

You serious Clark?

 

[RiverDave]

Sure. I agree on forced induction applications, and buyer beware, but we are talking an NA big block here. These 525s have well known top end weak points. So having those addressed and adding a little power makes them full custom and to retain resale value these well documented and needed modifications can only done by a Teague?

Didn’t H20 Toie just rebuild one or both of the 525s (edit 600s) in his cigarette? If I followed that story correctly they were not rebuilt by Teague and magically he somehow made money on that boat and didn’t destroy the resale value.

I think you missed what I was saying.. if you lift the hatch and it looks factory it will have better resale dollar for dollar.

If you lift the hatch and it’s a 525 with a blower on it that some random shop put together you certainly aren’t going to get your money back out of that investment.. it helps if it’s a well known shop that built it though.

Etc

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Jasper offers a 1050 motor with a 2 year warranty

View attachment 1245994

A Blueprint 632 775 HP marine engine is $16.5k with a 1 year warranty. Complete from carb to pan.

Not bad..

BluePrint Big Block Stroker Marine Crate Engine - Throttle.News

BluePrint Big Block Stroker Marine Crate Engine | BluePrint has a lineup of crate marine engines with prices from $4,499 to $13,799.

throttle.news

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I think you missed what I was saying.. if you lift the hatch and it looks factory it will have better resale dollar for dollar.

If you lift the hatch and it’s a 525 with a blower on it that some random shop put together you certainly aren’t going to get your money back out of that investment.. it helps if it’s a well known shop that built it though.

Etc

That is exactly what I said in the first place Dave. If the engine is still outwardly identical to stock, there is not going to be a meaningful change to the resale value of the boat if the engine is healthy. These 525s need work at 250-300 hours, that is common knowledge.

They are not all fixed at Teague. Having it fixed at a reputable shop with documentation is going to satisfy 90% of potential buyers.