Electrical questions for residential wiring

[Travmon]

So I am in the middle of a major remodel on the house I purchased a few years ago. I moved a few walls and now need to address the electrical. The whole house is wired in aluminum flex tubing and I now need to extend some runs to fit the new wall design. The Question I have is about splicing wires together in the wall ? What is legally acceptable and my best route to accomplish.? I really don’t want to pull new wire from the panel. Thoughts ?? Thank you

 

[Mandelon]

There's gonna be more accomplished electricians to answer this but you are likely describing older BX cable. A spiral wound steel protection over insulated wires. Connections should be in metal boxes and made to accessible in the future. You can make splices in the attic if it is accessible to avoid extra junction boxes on the wall. For a typical residential application you can use Romex cabling. 14/2 with ground for lighting, (white) and 12/2 with ground for outlets. (yellow)

 

[Mandelon]

You meant a real house, right? Not the model? LOL

 

[Taboma]

So I am in the middle of a major remodel on the house I purchased a few years ago. I moved a few walls and now need to address the electrical. The whole house is wired in aluminum flex tubing and I now need to extend some runs to fit the new wall design. The Question I have is about splicing wires together in the wall ? What is legally acceptable and my best route to accomplish.? I really don’t want to pull new wire from the panel. Thoughts ?? Thank you

View attachment 1444779 View attachment 1444780

Please whatever you do, DO NOT BURY any splices and render them inaccessible. Pretty cool your home was wired using flex. I don't know your particular codes or exact situation, but I'm not aware of that being required in any residential applications. Copper NM Cable --- AKA Romex, is the required and normal wiring used in homes.
Any legal splice requires an appropriately sized J-Box (Junction box), and unless it has a device, then a blank cover can be utilized. If I knew your exact circumstance I or other RDP sparkys could possibly provide additional recommendations.

 

[Taboma]

There's gonna be more accomplished electricians to answer this but you are likely describing older BX cable. A spiral wound steel protection over insulated wires. Connections should be in metal boxes and made to accessible in the future. You can make splices in the attic if it is accessible to avoid extra junction boxes on the wall. For a typical residential application you can use Romex cabling. 14/2 with ground for lighting, (white) and 12/2 with ground for outlets. (yellow)

BX of yore was typically steel. Aluminum is the modern equivalent and is possibly used in other areas of the country for residential ?? I though perhaps he was referring to Aluminum flex conduit ?? We installed that in apartment complexes in the late 60's, early 70's, until MC became more widely accepted.

 

[HNL2LHC]

You should also looking into the splicing of aluminum and copper. Back in the 60s my grand father worked in the aluminum industry. They were using aluminum in the wiring which had it‘s issues in the islands at least. People have been chasing issues with aluminum wiring. Then the parents did a renovation and aluminum was no longer available 20 years later. Connecting aluminum and copper was another issue at the time. It might not be the case for you and your project just saying that you should look into the compatibility as well so you go in eyes open.

 

[Travmon]

This is what is everywhere. Attic will be difficult as there is 3 feet of blown in insulation. Doing boxes with an accessible cover will kinda be seen which I would rather not do.

 

[NicPaus]

Splice them together at outlets or light fixtures. So the connections are accessible. Then extend them to where you need them. Might have to reroute the flex in areas but it beats running new lines from the main.

 

[500bbc]

You can tie the AL flex into any box that has a KO just like steel flex then make your connection to romex in the box. As noted do not bury splices, terminate them to a box that is a switch, outlet or blank the box off. AL to copper needs copalum connectors.

 

[Travmon]

You can tie the AL flex into any box that has a KO just like steel flex then make your connection to romex in the box. As noted do not bury splices, terminate them to a box that is a switch, outlet or blank the box off. AL to copper needs copalum connectors.

Its all copper wire.

 

[Travmon]

So the house was built in 1990 by the owner whom was a Yugoslavian immigrant that was a machinist. Strange house in many ways but I am fairly confident I can modify it to my liking. I am going for modern office building type look. I will not be happy if it is not a “WOW” house when completed. Love the acreage , fruit trees and it is across the street from a pretty quiet public boat launch !!

 

[NicPaus]

We all know you got the skills to get it done. Any questions on construction stuff you don't know just ask.

 

[rrrr]

Just buy some wire nuts, splice the new wire to the old, and cover it. No one will know.



When we sequentially removed all of the drywall in our house during 1999-2001 to extensively remodel it, I found this inside a bedroom wall. The brown appliance cord was routed to the ceiling light fixture box and powered a ceiling fan apparently installed by a previous owner.

 

[Taboma]

This is what is everywhere. Attic will be difficult as there is 3 feet of blown in insulation. Doing boxes with an accessible cover will kinda be seen which I would rather not do.

Aluminum flex is a rarity in residential. Your options depend on your particular application.
Burying or performing an inline running- splice is the grand sparky NO NO. You will be driven from the village and a curse placed upon you and all subsequent generations.

 

[rrrr]

Aluminum flex is a rarity in residential. Your options depend on your particular application.
Burying or performing an inline running- splice is the grand sparky NO NO. You will be driven from the village and a curse placed upon you and all subsequent generations.

See the post above.

 

[Taboma]

See the post above.

When we purchased the original 1970's home on this property, the owner was the Chief Engineer on a large well known Tuna Seiner.
While chasing down a few "Ghostly" flickering lights, I encountered a couple of ones similar to yours. At least mine were open in the attic and weren't to hard to spot after I resorted to pulling up batts of fiberglass insulation and finding them hidden beneath.
Probably a miracle that Seiner had never sunk.
Thankfully the downstream circuits weren't heavily loaded, else they'd have been found when the fire department tore my ceiling out.

 

[Flying_Lavey]

Aluminum flex is a rarity in residential. Your options depend on your particular application.
Burying or performing an inline running- splice is the grand sparky NO NO. You will be driven from the village and a curse placed upon you and all subsequent generations.

Burbank city didnt allow romex in residential applications for a long time. I want to say it wasnt up until 15 years or so until the started to allow it. I have been adding some recessed lighting in my aunt's house recently and it was remodeled in the 60's and it is all steel flex Which is good and bad. Way fewer home runs with it that other applications I have seen.

BTW, slightly different topic..... do you remember when the code changed to requiring a separate ground in the wiring and not being able to utilize the metallic conduit for the ground?

 

[Taboma]

Burbank city didnt allow romex in residential applications for a long time. I want to say it wasnt up until 15 years or so until the started to allow it. I have been adding some recessed lighting in my aunt's house recently and it was remodeled in the 60's and it is all steel flex Which is good and bad. Way fewer home runs with it that other applications I have seen.

BTW, slightly different topic..... do you remember when the code changed to requiring a separate ground in the wiring and not being able to utilize the metallic conduit for the ground?

I believe that code change was probably early 60's.
I know by 1966 we were wiring apartments using flexible conduit and we had to pull separate ground conductors.
My dad was one of the co-authors of NEC article 250 (Grounding). In that endeavor he worked with another co-author, Herb Ufer (Ufer Grounds). I recall having conversations regarding UL Lab's on the old steel BX and Steel flex and their findings proved that the high resistance across the convolutions could turn it into a heating element prior to it tripping the breaker under certain fault conditions.

 

[DirtyWhiteDog]

As, all have said above. Every splice/connection has to be accessible. You can get creative with 4x4 boxes or bigger behind lighting fixtures or in cabinet space etc

 

[SoCalDave]

I believe that code change was probably early 60's.
I know by 1966 we were wiring apartments using flexible conduit and we had to pull separate ground conductors.
My dad was one of the co-authors of NEC article 250 (Grounding). In that endeavor he worked with another co-author, Herb Ufer (Ufer Grounds). I recall having conversations regarding UL Lab's on the old steel BX and Steel flex and their findings proved that the high resistance across the convolutions could turn it into a heating element prior to it tripping the breaker under certain fault conditions.

Interesting...

 

[77charger]

Aluminum flex is a rarity in residential. Your options depend on your particular application.
Burying or performing an inline running- splice is the grand sparky NO NO. You will be driven from the village and a curse placed upon you and all subsequent generations.

Wish I had a pic of the splices I saw behind a shower wall buried behind the insulation.

I’m just a hot mopper but even I knew this was a a big nope. Just in one corner I saw 2 different splices wing nuts and electrical tape for this guy.

I’m no electrician but know basics and use a junction box if needed.

 

[Barnes Cove]

you showed a picture of aluminum flex which needs to have individual conductors pulled in for circuits, remove existing conductors. install inline coupling. extend flex to new box location. pull in new conductors

 

[Taboma]

you showed a picture of aluminum flex which needs to have individual conductors pulled in for circuits, remove existing conductors. install inline coupling. extend flex to new box location. pull in new conductors

Not being familiar with you or your electrical skill level, I write the following as general information to be shared with the group, not to you in particular.

What you suggest is of course most often being the most preferred solution, if possible and practical.

The one potential negative of this method would be exceeding the number and types of allowable (360 degrees) or even re-pullable bends (?) total between what was existing (At a minimum probably already 180 to 270) and what's necessary to complete the new run. Not saying exceeding it a little isn't unheard of, but there is a reason that code limitation was imposed.

It's not uncommon when roping a structure using flex to leave one or both ends unstrapped or even loose from the connectors, to facilitate a wire pull, then connecting or strapping the run after. Always pull conductors in flex while it's still accessible (Unless runs are short and straight).

The upside of flex is it's easy to install, particularly in walls than conduit. The flipside is, if installed by the "Unskilled", it can be easily be rendered more challenging if not impossible when it comes to fishing and pulling the conductors.

This method of extending the run, can be more easily facilitated by the fact that all or one of the existing conductors can be used to pull-in either new conductors or at a minimum a fishtape. (Especially if the number of bends rule is being bent, but be careful not to stress the new conductors. (use wire lube.)
This being accomplished by installing the fishtape from the new end and before coupling the new flex to the existing, connect the tape to one of the existing conductors, then complete coupling the flex.

When working with either aluminum or steel flex (Or any conduit for that matter), invest in a Greenlee flexible fishtape leader makes pushing the tape around corners much less challenging.

 

[yz450mm]

Just buy some wire nuts, splice the new wire to the old, and cover it. No one will know.



When we sequentially removed all of the drywall in our house during 1999-2001 to extensively remodel it, I found this inside a bedroom wall. The brown appliance cord was routed to the ceiling light fixture box and powered a ceiling fan apparently installed by a previous owner.

View attachment 1444789

I found this fine example of quality workmanship above the t bar ceiling when I was installing a bunch of new light fixtures yesterday. I sent the property owner a list of all the code violations and told them that this is the exact reason that I asked to rip out all the old crap and start over.

 

[HNL2LHC]

Just buy some wire nuts, splice the new wire to the old, and cover it. No one will know.



When we sequentially removed all of the drywall in our house during 1999-2001 to extensively remodel it, I found this inside a bedroom wall. The brown appliance cord was routed to the ceiling light fixture box and powered a ceiling fan apparently installed by a previous owner.

View attachment 1444789

Looks like my grandfather did the work. If you like I can look into the stacks of napkins to see if I have a set of the original “as built plans”

 

[Taboma]

I found this fine example of quality workmanship above the t bar ceiling when I was installing a bunch of new light fixtures yesterday. I sent the property owner a list of all the code violations and told them that this is the exact reason that I asked to rip out all the old crap and start over. View attachment 1445140

WTF ???? HOLY SHIT, by "List", did you mean "Book"

 

[The Chicken]

Please whatever you do, DO NOT BURY any splices and render them inaccessible. Pretty cool your home was wired using flex. I don't know your particular codes or exact situation, but I'm not aware of that being required in any residential applications. Copper NM Cable --- AKA Romex, is the required and normal wiring used in homes.
Any legal splice requires an appropriately sized J-Box (Junction box), and unless it has a device, then a blank cover can be utilized. If I knew your exact circumstance I or other RDP sparkys could possibly provide additional recommendations.

Naw-Go ahead and bury those illegal splices in the wall and cover them up with drywall too. Also, leave all your wire nuts barely tight on those splices while you're at it. Bonus if you also splice old aluminum wire to new copper using the incorrect methods/devices on your buried splices!

In all seriousness, I've spent a lot of time and made a lot of money over the years digging into walls and attics trying to find these illegal splices and repairing the damage they often leave behind years later. And a number of them have by some miracle not been structure fires. Behind open circuit issues caused by stab-in devices and improperly installed wire nuts, buried wire splices were my most common, time consuming, and expensive trouble-shooting and repair jobs.
And on that note-save yourself the trouble and do NOT use stab-in switches, outlets, or wire connectors; and learn how to PROPERLY install wire nuts.

 

[Taboma]

Naw-Go ahead and bury those illegal splices in the wall and cover them up with drywall too. Also, leave all your wire nuts barely tight on those splices while you're at it. Bonus if you also splice old aluminum wire to new copper using the incorrect methods/devices on your buried splices!

In all seriousness, I've spent a lot of time and made a lot of money over the years digging into walls and attics trying to find these illegal splices and repairing the damage they often leave behind years later. And a number of them have by some miracle not been structure fires. Behind open circuit issues caused by stab-in devices and improperly installed wire nuts, buried wire splices were my most common, time consuming, and expensive trouble-shooting and repair jobs.
And on that note-save yourself the trouble and do NOT use stab-in switches, outlets, or wire connectors; and learn how to PROPERLY install wire nuts.

This fellow sparky approves this message but then I'm retired and not seeking job security

 

[rrrr]

I found this fine example of quality workmanship above the t bar ceiling when I was installing a bunch of new light fixtures yesterday. I sent the property owner a list of all the code violations and told them that this is the exact reason that I asked to rip out all the old crap and start over. View attachment 1445140

The number of screwups in that photo is impressive. It even involves other trades, like the flex duct connections to the grilles.



For the non-electrically inclined inmates, the presence of Romex in a ceiling return air plenum is a code violation. One also doesn't have to be an expert to see that unspooling Romex and randomly routing it in that manner isn't allowed.

Notice the four #12 AWG spliced with a yellow wire nut (the max number allowed is three), and two of them aren't twisted with the two that made up the original connection.

The lighting circuit conduit and junction box aren't properly supported, and... there's more.

 

[FENDERFAB]

i just finished a major remodel in my house. I was able to get away with only having two visible blank cover plates for access boxes. Its really not noticable once its done. As mentioned do not bury open connections in the wall. As nic mentioned you can try to make your splices in outlet boxes, light boxes etc somewhere there is already going to be a box.

 

[yz450mm]

The number of screwups in that photo is impressive. It even involves other trades, like the flex duct connections to the grilles.



For the non-electrically inclined inmates, the presence of Romex in a ceiling return air plenum is a code violation. One also doesn't have to be an expert to see that unspooling Romex and randomly routing it in that manner isn't allowed.

Notice the four #12 AWG spliced with a yellow wire nut (the max number allowed is three), and two of them aren't twisted with the two that made up the original connection.

The lighting circuit conduit and junction box aren't properly supported, and... there's more.

Oh there's waaaayyyy more ...

 

[lbhsbz]

The number of screwups in that photo is impressive. It even involves other trades, like the flex duct connections to the grilles.



For the non-electrically inclined inmates, the presence of Romex in a ceiling return air plenum is a code violation. One also doesn't have to be an expert to see that unspooling Romex and randomly routing it in that manner isn't allowed.

Notice the four #12 AWG spliced with a yellow wire nut (the max number allowed is three), and two of them aren't twisted with the two that made up the original connection.

The lighting circuit conduit and junction box aren't properly supported, and... there's more.

I've got that beat.

My tenant wanted more outlets on one side of the garage and didn't need the 240V that I had in there (2 hots, bare undersized (correct for it's purpose) ground), so he decided to split the 240V circuit into 2 120V circuits, using one hot and sharing the bare ground as the neutral because he saw that they were tied together at the main panel, so they must be the same. Added 6 outlets total. Didn't change the double pole breaker either. lol.

His Dad's doing. After I saw that, I told him I'd evict his ass if his dad ever touched anything but a fucking doorknob in that house again.

 

[yz450mm]

WTF ???? HOLY SHIT, by "List", did you mean "Book"

The number of screwups in that photo is impressive. It even involves other trades, like the flex duct connections to the grilles.



For the non-electrically inclined inmates, the presence of Romex in a ceiling return air plenum is a code violation. One also doesn't have to be an expert to see that unspooling Romex and randomly routing it in that manner isn't allowed.

Notice the four #12 AWG spliced with a yellow wire nut (the max number allowed is three), and two of them aren't twisted with the two that made up the original connection.

The lighting circuit conduit and junction box aren't properly supported, and... there's more.

This wiring job was obviously installed in strict accordance with the IBC, and approved by absolutely no one ever. Yes, this is exactly as I found it.

IBC -- India Building Code

 

[Taboma]

This wiring job was obviously installed in strict accordance with the IBC, and approved by absolutely no one ever. Yes, this is exactly as I found it.

IBC -- India Building Code

View attachment 1445532 View attachment 1445534

I don't know which emotion is going to win over me, laughing till my ribs break , or sobbing like a baby Damn, and to top it off he used a tubing cutter and didn't even bother to ream it.

 

[rrrr]

My dad was one of the co-authors of NEC article 250 (Grounding). In that endeavor he worked with another co-author, Herb Ufer (Ufer Grounds). I recall having conversations regarding UL Lab's on the old steel BX and Steel flex and their findings proved that the high resistance across the convolutions could turn it into a heating element prior to it tripping the breaker under certain fault conditions.

The lack of knowledge and understanding of Article 250 is an issue in the electrical trades. During the 1989-1992 period when I was installing and maintaining large data center UPS systems and associated power distribution units, or PDUs, I routinely found instances where improper ground and neutral commingling created equipment damage and failures. In one instance, this situation took down an entire building and kicked an IBM mainframe offline in a manner that the IBM tech didn't understand and I was able to diagnose.

I received the call around 2:30 AM that a customer's data center was down. When I arrived at the site, I found a momentary utility outage (just a few seconds) had tripped the ground fault circuit interruptor protected 1200 amp main service entrance breaker. There was a UPS protecting the data center critical loads, but no generator.

The UPS had run until the battery was exhausted, but the IBM System 38 mainframe had gone dark immediately when the utility power had failed. Before I arrived, the utility main had been reset and power to the building had been restored. The UPS was running again and recharging its battery, the data peripherals were all back in operation, but not the mainframe. An IBM field engineer was now onsite, and he had not been able to restart the Sys38.

I suspected an improper neutral/ground connection somewhere had caused the GFCI on the 1200 amp main to trip. It sounds counterintuitive, but a single low amperage branch circuit protected by a 20 amp breaker can cause the main to trip during a momentary outage, because the low impedance of that neutral or ground may allow the neutral current of the entire service to flow through a #10 or #12 wire for a few milliseconds.

Looking for current on the ground bus of the PDU, it didn't take long to find someone had grabbed a four wire 208V/1ϕ branch circuit cable under the raised floor and used it to power the air handler of a small split system A/C unit. They had connected the neutral conductor of the PDU cable to the chassis ground of the AHU. I fixed that issue.

But the mainframe was still dead. This is back in the day when IBM field engineers still wore white shirts and skinny black ties, and the documents for the mainframes were in big blue books on roll around carts. The power supply module of the mainframe was not producing power. I asked the FE for the schematic. There was a 5 amp SloBlo fuse on the primary, and I was pretty sure that was the issue. I had the same fuse in my tool bag.

The FE was adamant he couldn't take the cover off of the module. "That's an FRU (field replacement unit). I can't get one until tomorrow morning." My customer demanded he open it, he did, and there's the blown fuse. In ten more minutes the computer was going through startup mode.

 

[Taboma]

The lack of knowledge and understanding of Article 250 is an issue in the electrical trades. During the 1989-1992 period when I was installing and maintaining large data center UPS systems and associated power distribution units, or PDUs, I routinely found instances where improper ground and neutral commingling created equipment damage and failures. In one instance, this situation took down an entire building and kicked an IBM mainframe offline in a manner that the IBM tech didn't understand and I was able to diagnose.

I received the call around 2:30 AM that a customer's data center was down. When I arrived at the site, I found a momentary utility outage (just a few seconds) had tripped the ground fault circuit interruptor protected 1200 amp main service entrance breaker. There was a UPS protecting the data center critical loads, but no generator.

The UPS had run until the battery was exhausted, but the IBM System 38 mainframe had gone dark immediately when the utility power had failed. Before I arrived, the utility main had been reset and power to the building had been restored. The UPS was running again and recharging its battery, the data peripherals were all back in operation, but not the mainframe. An IBM field engineer was now onsite, and he had not been able to restart the Sys38.

I suspected an improper neutral/ground connection somewhere had caused the GFCI on the 1200 amp main to trip. It sounds counterintuitive, but a single low amperage branch circuit protected by a 20 amp breaker can cause the main to trip during a momentary outage, because the low impedance of that neutral or ground may allow the neutral current of the entire service to flow through a #10 or #12 wire for a millisecond.

Looking for current on the ground bus of the PDU, it didn't take long to find someone had grabbed a four wire 208V/1ϕ branch circuit cable under the raised floor and used it to power the air handler of a small split system A/C unit. They had connected the neutral conductor of the PDU cable to the chassis ground of the AHU. I fixed that issue.

But the mainframe was still dead. This is back in the day when IBM field engineers still wore white shirts and skinny black ties, and the documents for the mainframes were in big blue books on roll around carts. The power supply module of the mainframe was not producing power. I asked the FE for the schematic. There was a 5 amp SloBlo fuse on the primary, and I was pretty sure that was the issue. I had the same fuse in my tool bag.

The FE was adamant he couldn't take the cover off of the module. "That's an FRU (field replacement unit). I can't get one until tomorrow morning." My customer demanded he open it, he did, and there's the blown fuse. In ten more minutes the computer was going through startup mode.

Certainly an intriguing issue and one that had you not found a timely solution, would have surely been a sleep thief.

When we were replacing all the 12KV substations and distribution loop at 32nd St Naval Station they'd spec'd all GFCI mains on the secondary side.
Problem as I'm sure you can imagine, we're now re-connecting to occupied buildings that had were wired and re-wired over many decades and they all had to be cleaned up prior to the narrow window we were authorized to perform the switchover outage.

During the 80's and early 90's we stayed extremely busy replacing both 12KV and Communications infrastructure on all the area Navy bases.
One very interesting aspect of that work was the educational phase early on of learning the most proficient methods for setting manholes in conjunction with the tidal phases. You either got it right and in sync, or you now had an extremely large rectangular flat bottom concrete BOAT on your hands.

A large percentage of otherwise qualified electricians, fail to fully appreciate the science of ground fault currents and their paths.
In the 70's Article 250 was confounding to many, and although better understood today, is still a source of local inspection mistakes.
I made it a point when starting any new project, even in a familiar jurisdiction to discuss and agree on the main service or any potential special grounding methods and concerns right out of the gate.

 

[DLC]

This wiring job was obviously installed in strict accordance with the IBC, and approved by absolutely no one ever. Yes, this is exactly as I found it.

IBC -- India Building Code

View attachment 1445532 View attachment 1445534

Well at least the box had a cover on it….

LoL

 

[Joe mama]

I don't know which emotion is going to win over me, laughing till my ribs break , or sobbing like a baby Damn, and to top it off he used a tubing cutter and didn't even bother to ream it.

Pretty sure the customer got reamed on this one.

 

[Taboma]

Pretty sure the customer got reamed on this one.

That kinda looks like the result of a conversation over beers that started something like " Listen buddy, I know this guy ----- "