eject!

[JB in so cal]

Winter....

 

[JayBreww]

Like i said, please educate us on what this Trillion dollars has accomplished.... I'm all ears, because as to date nobody has really shown anything mind blowing for a Trillion dollars and 25 years of development that is now mostly outdated as we see the rise of unmanned operations.

RG: I’ll be your huckleberry.

 

[Go-Fly]

Like i said, please educate us on what this Trillion dollars has accomplished....

That ejection seat worked with a flawless intent.

 

[Not_Tonto]

Exactly, absolutely there is a ton of technology in the plane, but there ought to be for that long of a development timeline, and more than a Trillion dollars spent so far. That is absolutely insane to think about, a trillion dollars....

I mean it's hard to fathom just how much money that is.... The Ford Class Aircraft Carrier program has had a total program budget of under 40 billion.... To develop the newest greatest aircraft carrier, a floating city with nuclear reactor power that houses thousands of seamen for months and months without resupply.

40 billion, That is just 0.040 trillion or 4%.

Like 77 said, the acquisition/procurement at DoD has become a poison piggy bank, and the f35 is the most egregious example.

Another not so mentioned program would be Sikorsky and their hissy fit over the contract with Boeing for the newest Combat Rescue Helicopter (CRH), as well as cost overruns and weapons issues. We would be much better off with Boeings HH-47. But I’m not salty.

 

[Blackmagic94]

engine failure. Look at the smoke on decent. That was a controlled crash not pilot error

 

[Blackmagic94]

I agree with that, but from the time the f35 was incepted, to when it was meant to be delivered, to now when it has actually enterrd operation, we have had the rise of unmanned vehicles that were unimagined in '95, but sae their huge rise in the iraq/afghan theater before the f35 flew, and became a dominant force from that time till now. The f35 will probably be the last manned fighter.

If the f35 had of been delivered by it's initial deadline there would have been a fair argument. But 10 years past that deadline into drones it all of a sudden looks like quite a wasted effort for the immense costs.

I mean the SLS rocket that took 10+ years and 25 billion is laughable in it's technology compared to what SpaceX accomplished in the same time frame with far less money. And the F35 program could pay for the SLS program 40 times over

Show me unmanned drones that perform air to air etc. you can’t.



The f35 has flown over Iranian airspace in broad daylight against s300s with no intercepts. The f35 is the most advanced anything that flys in the world. It’s going to be very useful against PLAN

 

[Blackmagic94]

Has anyone here dissing these birds even sat in one? Better question, have you flipped down the visor screen and had a look? Yes an f-16 will out fly a f-35 no questions asked thats simple. However an f-35 will pluck it outta the air before the 16 knows what's up.

Actually no. F16s are getting their asses handed to them by f35a in red flag now that the f35a isn’t limited to 7.5 Gs anymore. They pull high 9s now with a full weapons load. An f16 only does that clean with no stows. Which means air show config only.


Also red air only allows for handicapped BVR engagements which defeats the real benefits of LO. The upcoming AIM-260 will make the f35 and f22 kill your from 150 plus miles and you will never know.

 

[530RL]

 

[Racey]

Show me unmanned drones that perform air to air etc. you can’t.



The f35 has flown over Iranian airspace in broad daylight against s300s with no intercepts. The f35 is the most advanced anything that flys in the world. It’s going to be very useful against PLAN

Show me a trillion dollar drone

Post Vietnam what are total air to air losses for the entire world? Probably under 100... Air to air combat has become exceedingly rare.

 

[rrrr]

I stated drones also but you seem to ignore that, on top of existing missles, existing long range stealth bombers, existing conventional bombers.

The program is a joke because it's run on for 25 years before delivering an aircraft and cost more than 1 Trillion dollars, ridiculously behind schedule and ridiculously over budget. It never would have been approved for that cost and timeline. It never would have been approved at half the price and half the timeline.

The F-35B is a complete waste of money. The idea that it will provide close air support in forward combat areas with the ability to land on unimproved surfaces is something a fifth grader could intuitively discern is a crock of shit.

 

[Blackmagic94]

The F-35B is a complete waste of money. The idea that it will provide close air support in forward combat areas with the ability to land on unimproved surfaces is something a fifth grader could intuitively discern is a crock of shit.

That’s a side note. Its main purpose is to operate of the USN amphi assault ships which are basically aircraft carriers in size to what other nations run. So that gives us many more aircraft carriers then just super carriers. But hey let’s not be ready to fight the Chinese or anything. And let’s not buy them and continue to operate av-8b harriers that are garage off them since you think this is a waste.

 

[Blackmagic94]

Show me a trillion dollar drone

Post Vietnam what are total air to air losses for the entire world? Probably under 100... Air to air combat has become exceedingly rare.

The f-15 combat record is 104 kills to zero
The f-16 is 76:1
The f-18 is 2:1
The f-14 is 135:4
Sea Harrier is 21:1, only raf used that


Not gonna list the French and Soviet built numbers


We also don’t know the real numbers of air to air in Ukraine right now but the moral of the story is in the past few decades a lot of kills have taken place. A lot more then 100

 

[Blackmagic94]

Current purchase f35s are less than a 100 million each now. The price is coming down with buying more. Shits expensive now-days either way.



You also made the claim it’s outdated to drones. Explain that one.


Explain how an open end hardware and software tech is outdated and unable to be upgraded to future systems. Hint, it’s not. They can change it to whatever they need as systems are engineered in the future.

Show me a stealth ucav capable of air to air, air to ground, sead, ISR-awacs. I’ll wait.

Also how do you launch and recover drones in the middle of the pacific after China has attacked?

 

[Not_Tonto]

Actually no. F16s are getting their asses handed to them by f35a in red flag now that the f35a isn’t limited to 7.5 Gs anymore. They pull high 9s now with a full weapons load. An f16 only does that clean with no stows. Which means air show config only.


Also red air only allows for handicapped BVR engagements which defeats the real benefits of LO. The upcoming AIM-260 will make the f35 and f22 kill your from 150 plus miles and you will never know.

The dilemma that RF had was “do they want to develop fighter pilots or missile truck drivers?” They chose the former by restricting the BVR engagements. However, in a head to head fight, the 35 will beat the 16 almost every time. Due mostly to their sensors, data link, etc.
What a lot of people fail to realize is that yes, the J-20 is in fact a adversary to be worries about. The BVR capability is clear. What’s unclear is their BFM capes.

 

[Blackmagic94]

The dilemma that RF had was “do they want to develop fighter pilots or missile truck drivers?” They chose the former by restricting the BVR engagements. However, in a head to head fight, the 35 will beat the 16 almost every time. Due mostly to their sensors, data link, etc.
What a lot of people fail to realize is that yes, the J-20 is in fact an adversary to be worries about. The BVR capability is clear. What’s unclear is their BFM capes.

Bingo.



Also what really made people start to see the light was when they allowed unrestricted turns to 9.0 plus Gs and the f-35s would kill 4 red air f-16Ns and then head to a bombing sortie and drop twin 2000 lbs jdam and then return home. The aggressor red air guys were dumbfounded when they found out the 35s had 4000 lbs on bombs and full fuel when they got their asses handed to them.


A f-16 block 52 with a combat load of say

2 aim-9x
2 aim-120c
2 500 gal drop tanks
2 1000 lb jdams


That is gonna struggle to hold a continuous 5-6 G turn and bleed momentum off like crazy all why have the a huge radar return.

In combat they are gonna dump the drop tanks and the jdams to have a fighting chance against a 4th gen Chinese or Russian airframe. And they basically just lost their primary purpose which was a strike package.


The other big issue with the Chinese fight is distance. There is reason the usmc just dumped all their armored tanks for hypersonic mobile truck missile launchers and ground launched anti ship missiles. It’s going to be an island hoping campaign while air assets are gonna be making the hump from Pearl Harbor, Australia and the Philippines or Guam because anything closer is gonna be on fire

 

[Not_Tonto]

Bingo.



Also what really made people start to see the light was when they allowed unrestricted turns to 9.0 plus Gs and the f-35s would kill 4 red air f-16Ns and then head to a bombing sortie and drop twin 2000 lbs jdam and then return home. The aggressor red air guys were dumbfounded when they found out the 35s had 4000 lbs on bombs and full fuel when they got their asses handed to them.


A f-16 block 52 with a combat load of say

2 aim-9x
2 aim-120c
2 500 gal drop tanks
2 1000 lb jdams


That is gonna struggle to hold a continuous 5-6 G turn and bleed momentum off like crazy all why have the a huge radar return.

In combat they are gonna dump the drop tanks and the jdams to have a fighting chance against a 4th gen Chinese or Russian airframe. And they basically just lost their primary purpose which was a strike package.


The other big issue with the Chinese fight is distance. There is reason the usmc just dumped all their armored tanks for hypersonic mobile truck missile launchers and ground launched anti ship missiles. It’s going to be an island hoping campaign while air assets are gonna be making the hump from Pearl Harbor, Australia and the Philippines or Guam because anything closer is gonna be on fire

Agreed. Albeit O-Plans (without getting into classified stuff) have had little change over the years. And with our 5th gen capes I’m curious as to how we would be able to fully operate in a GPS denied environment. In my opinion that’s where the Vipers and Strike eagles will come out an play.

The Chinese are playing 5D chess. They know that it would be an island hopping campaign, prime example is their man made islands.

 

[DaveH]

love this thread.

have several friends that are military pilots, including one who is a 16 driver test pilot at edwards and another who is a retired 16 driver who now runs the simulators at edwards.

i have asked them many of these questions, about the reality of dog fighting in today's times and the effectiveness of the F35 program today.

leaving out the cost of delays procuring the F35......the answer I got from these guys is an F35, while capable of dog fighting, isn't what it is intended to do. the radar cross section is what it is ALL about, and they claim the ranges and advancements of the weapons the F35 offer, it would kill any adversary before the opponent knew it was there. even in a highly contested airspace, where an enemy could have AWACS type aircraft with more powerful radars capable of seeing an F35, getting that info to an adversary and the fighter acquiring a weapons grade lock to shoot at a 35 and actually hit it is much more difficult or even impossible given the low RCS of the 35.

to them....its all about TACTICS, using stealth as an advantage win air superiority for the 4th gen aircraft to then go in with the heavy payloads and mop up the target and make it back home.

operating in a GPS jammed environment is a double edge sword..........jamming GPS goes both ways, hence the reason we have weapons now with radar, infrared, and other sensing technologies to hit their mark. jamming is nothing new and has been around since the advent of radar, we have aircraft that are specifically designed for this exact purpose, as no doubt does our enemies.

bottom line is its all about who can get closest without being seen, carries weapons with the longest range to get the first shot off...........and this is where our 6th gen aircraft rule the skies right now.

 

[DaveH]

as for the crash and ejection........seems to me like some sort of thrust and/or flight control malfunction. he touches down, albiet a little on the hard set yet you can clearly see where the tail get kicked up from thrust and the thing stays clearly at full throttle. never heard the engine spool down before he ejected leads me to believe there was some sort of loss of control.

 

[traquer]

love this thread.

have several friends that are military pilots, including one who is a 16 driver test pilot at edwards and another who is a retired 16 driver who now runs the simulators at edwards.

i have asked them many of these questions, about the reality of dog fighting in today's times and the effectiveness of the F35 program today.

leaving out the cost of delays procuring the F35......the answer I got from these guys is an F35, while capable of dog fighting, isn't what it is intended to do. the radar cross section is what it is ALL about, and they claim the ranges and advancements of the weapons the F35 offer, it would kill any adversary before the opponent knew it was there. even in a highly contested airspace, where an enemy could have AWACS type aircraft with more powerful radars capable of seeing an F35, getting that info to an adversary and the fighter acquiring a weapons grade lock to shoot at a 35 and actually hit it is much more difficult or even impossible given the low RCS of the 35.

to them....its all about TACTICS, using stealth as an advantage win air superiority for the 4th gen aircraft to then go in with the heavy payloads and mop up the target and make it back home.

operating in a GPS jammed environment is a double edge sword..........jamming GPS goes both ways, hence the reason we have weapons now with radar, infrared, and other sensing technologies to hit their mark. jamming is nothing new and has been around since the advent of radar, we have aircraft that are specifically designed for this exact purpose, as no doubt does our enemies.

bottom line is its all about who can get closest without being seen, carries weapons with the longest range to get the first shot off...........and this is where our 6th gen aircraft rule the skies right now.

Nice I knew there'd be much more knowledge here than what a layperson like me has.

Only question I have after seeing what happened in Iran and Ukraine (shooting down airliner by accident) is what is the strategy for firing one of these air to air missles with 100+ mile range? How would you know what you're shooting at? Seems like all the stuff from the current Ukraine war is along the lines of "only shoot when the enemy is close" and it's working well enough

 

[DaveH]

Nice I knew there'd be much more knowledge here than what a layperson like me has.

Only question I have after seeing what happened in Iran and Ukraine (shooting down airliner by accident) is what is the strategy for firing one of these air to air missles with 100+ mile range? How would you know what you're shooting at? Seems like all the stuff from the current Ukraine war is along the lines of "only shoot when the enemy is close" and it's working well enough

our aircarft (and our allies) operate an IFF (identify friend or foe) coded transmitter to help ID enemy airacft. i also believe we have radar cross sections of other types of aircraft....much like we have acoustic signatures of submarines....to help identify a target at long range. but at any rate shooting down a friendly or civilian aircraft is something we take seriously. what are all the tools we have (that can be talked about)....I'll have to ask my military friends.

 

[Blackmagic94]

Prior to Ukraine conflict the last and most currently aerial engagement was paki f16s vs a mix of Indian aircraft. The f-16s show down one mig-21 and a su-30. Aim-120c that were never said to be sold to Pakistan were used and had fms lot numbers that were sold to Taiwan.

Indian claims they shot down an f-16 but to this day zero evidence has been shown to prove that.

 

[Go-Fly]

Yet the Chinese sent a 39 cent germ on the end of a Q-tip, around the world and killed millions of people as a test. They don't have to out fight, just outlast for 72hrs.

 

[STV_Keith]

I haven't read the manual on the F-35, but I have read that if the plane experiences a lift fan failure, which this one seems to have had (nose pitched violently down), the plane can auto-eject the pilot if it determines it is level enough for a safe ejection. Watching the video, it looks like the lift fan failed, the plane nosed in, then spun around on the ground, eventually getting level enough for an auto-eject maybe.

 

[attitude]

Frank Holbert would of landed that bad boy with no issue…

 

[DaveH]

so after talking to one of my edwards buddies........way too soon to know for certain (but they will find out), he suspects a mechanical failure of the fan or some sort of flight control issue.

in his opinion, the only thing the pilot did wrong was not ejecting sooner...............

 

[Go-Fly]

in his opinion, the only thing the pilot did wrong was not ejecting sooner...............

I think the pilot was preoccupied kissing his ass goodbye.

 

[4Waters]

I haven't read the manual on the F-35, but I have read that if the plane experiences a lift fan failure, which this one seems to have had (nose pitched violently down), the plane can auto-eject the pilot if it determines it is level enough for a safe ejection. Watching the video, it looks like the lift fan failed, the plane nosed in, then spun around on the ground, eventually getting level enough for an auto-eject maybe.

Yeah, page 37 second paragraph

That's crazy that the plane can decide to eject the pilot. Can we get that system in the oval office? I would pay to see that.

 

[Bigbore500r]

Winter....

Winter…..when 2 boaters argue if a Drone could kill a submarine before an aging figher smokes a 5th Gen stealth plane.

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