Does war have "rules"

[jetboatperformance]

Cluster bombs are against the "rules" WTF

 

[fat rat]

What is a cluster bomb, the controversial weapon the U.S. is sending to Ukraine?

Many U.S. allies have banned cluster munitions, but there is evidence that both Russia and Ukraine have used them on the battlefield.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[pronstar]

Rules are easily circumvented.

Covert forces technically aren’t military and aren’t beholden to military rule, as an example.

Or they’re just flat ignored…it’s not like there’s some law-enforcement organization that will write me a citation for planting land mines, because my military will kill your law enforcement.

 

[SixD9R]

Deliberately bombing and killing innocent civilians is and should be against the rules. As Russia, and the terrorists in the Middle East / Palestine do.

 

[Javajoe]

Absolutely shocking we are supplying them to Ukraine. Not good. Lots don’t explode and kids end up sometimes finding them and blowing themselves up

 

[DarkHorseRacing]

Deliberately bombing and killing innocent civilians is and should be against the rules. As Russia, and the terrorists in the Middle East / Palestine do.

What if they are collateral damage because the strike needed to eliminate the actual target simply can’t get more precise?

If we were to deny the strike because collateral damage is against the rules we’d never be able to eliminate anything.

 

[retaocleg]

prob with cluster bombs is they have about 30% failure rate on impact, leaving little surprises for the future civilians after the war ends

 

[4Waters]

Yes, the military has rules, that's why the US militia is feared by all governments of the world, we have no rules.

 

[USMC2010]

Yes there are rules, no not everyone abides by them. We are supposed to be better than this but...it's Biden, I mean Obama.

 

[jetboatperformance]

I remember Rush once said "War is to kill people and break things" (paraphrase) . I wonder if alot of thought was given to "innocents" with Fat man and Little boy ?

 

[Smupser]

I’ve always believed there are two schools of thought here. In the world we live in with political motivations and certain governments best interests there will always be rules to play by. Playin by these rules makes it extremely difficult to win any war.

The other way of thinking is along the lines of Fredrick Nietzsche, in that the sole destruction of the enemy, by any means necessary, is what wins wars

 

[hallett21]

Deliberately bombing and killing innocent civilians is and should be against the rules. As Russia, and the terrorists in the Middle East / Palestine do.

We’ve blown up a lot of weddings and parties.

 

[DarkHorseRacing]

I remember Rush once said "War is to kill people and break things" (paraphrase) . I wonder if alot of thought was given to "innocents" with Fat man and Little boy ?

Well the Japanese army was made up of civilians either drafted, conscripted or volunteered for their military. The choice was their population or ours that would be lost to end a war, one that they started. Plus at the time the Japanese were vowing to never surrender which meant you’d practically have to kill a lot more of them to achieve an objective that another group might have surrendered instead.

At the time, with the information they had, they made the best decision for this country. We gotta stop putting history on trial and holding them to todays standards.

 

[monkeyswrench]

Deliberately bombing and killing innocent civilians is and should be against the rules. As Russia, and the terrorists in the Middle East / Palestine do.

It's not just the ones you listed...all players have blood of innocents on their hands. American bombs took out an aid worker and some of his family in Afghanistan...because the Taliban said he was the guy responsible for the air base bombing. Israel strikes Palestinian apartment buildings...chicken/egg thing at this point. Last week Russia hit a civilian target...yet the videos were posted by former US military that must have been vacationing there...

As the saying goes, all is fair in love and war. There's nothing even remotely refined about the concept of killing people to force their leaders into submission. There may be a lot of technological advancements, but the end game is still the same. Lots of dead people. Some will be innocent of crimes, others deserving of more than a simple death, and the rest somewhere in between. As a human, of any nationality, we just hope it doesn't take our loved ones. That can't be the case for everyone though.

 

[jetboatperformance]

When I was a kid (a friend) I got in a fist fight knock down drag out in the dirt deal seems like it went on for ever , at no point would either one of us quit....... My point is that it came to me that the only way to get Him to "tap out" and give up was to be stronger and do more that he could take ...."the insurmountable force meets the immovable object"

 

[Berdes]

Book I read long ago about this subject ended with an elite mercenary group that was sick of all the women and children being killed and decided to change all that. Covertly planted a "gift" on each opposing presidents desk. When opened, a recording said "We know and see you. Next time, you're dead. Cease hostilities or cease to live." I rather liked the approach.

 

[Smupser]

I’ve always believed there are two schools of thought here. In the world we live in with political motivations and certain governments best interests there will always be rules to play by. Playin by these rules makes it extremely difficult to win any war.

The other way of thinking is along the lines of Fredrick Nietzsche, in that the sole destruction of the enemy, by any means necessary, is what wins wars

There’s a reason why we kicked ass in World War II and lost Vietnam

 

[clarence]

There's nothing even remotely refined about the concept of killing people to force their leaders into submission.

Au contraire:

Just war theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Geneva Conventions - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[pronstar]

Yes there are rules, no not everyone abides by them. We are supposed to be better than this but...it's Biden, I mean Obama.

The drone program under Obama turned fucking barbaric…

 

[Taboma]

The countries that have NOT signed this treaty banning cluster bombs ---- Notice a pattern here ??

According to Cluster Munition Monitor 2022, the list of 16 countries that refuse to sign the convention and produce cluster munitions included Brazil, China, Egypt, Greece, Iran, Israel, India, North Korea, Pakistan, Poland, Romania, Russia, Singapore, South Korea, the United States and Turkey.

 

[azsunfun]

None, look at the political wars here . And abroad continuing fund a losing ukraine do to western funding and weapons to keep Russian onslaught going we are to blame for the continued life loss, u.s. and Hiroshima what a innocent country we are. Fuck the patriot act, and presidential war powers!

 

[CoolCruzin]

Rules for war - seems like why .
If you’re losing there will be no rules .
And rules are made to be broken

 

[MR HARLEY]

Clusterbombs?

 

[monkeyswrench]

Au contraire:

Just war theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Geneva Conventions - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Just War Theory"...buy who's justification? Even according to Saint Augustine, those who make the justification were to be leaders of political groups. Augustine himself was a proponent of war, but only if victory was assured.

Honestly, I don't care how eloquent the wording or justifications may be, the truth of the matter is war means death. Blood, guts and gore, horrible things that nightmares are made of. Loss of friends or family, orphaned children, and parents losing offspring.

Those that make the justifications, never risk themselves or their kin. They justify the deaths of their countrymen, and even honor their memory, all the while increasing their holdings, and assuring their own bloodlines.

 

[PlanB]

Cluster munitions (DPICM) are very effective. We used them in the ME and they were very effective against personnel. The rocket drops the bomblets above the target and they cover a larger area than a conventional HE warhead.

 

[Shlbyntro]

Only losers are subject to the rules. Winners make the rules.

 

[monkeyswrench]

Only losers are subject to the rules. Winners make the rules.

Racing, the unspoken "If you aren't cheating, you're not winning"
Or...
"If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck."

 

[Gramps]

Rule #1........WIN

 

[clarence]

If you worry for your immortal soul, the rules matter.

. . . you have but one epistemological problem, to learn the will of God. If there is no God, everything is permitted; if there is a God, it's even more terrifying, because then some things are not permitted, and men have got to find out which are which.

https://openyls.law.yale.edu/bitstream/handle/20.500.13051/2166/Book_Review_Knowledge_and_Politics.pdf?sequence=2

 

[TimeBandit]

Russia is and has been using Cluster bombs against Ukraine, so what's the problem?

 

[monkeyswrench]

Russia is and has been using Cluster bombs against Ukraine, so what's the problem?

...and Ukraine has been using them as well. Human Rights Watch has reported both sides using cluster type rocket munitions. No saints anywhere.

The only reason anyone cares is they are actually telling us we're sending them. For the most part, the American people never questioned the means given to allies before. Because it's publicized now, people care.

 

[pronstar]

...and Ukraine has been using them as well. Human Rights Watch has reported both sides using cluster type rocket munitions. No saints anywhere.

The only reason anyone cares is they are actually telling us we're sending them. For the most part, the American people never questioned the means given to allies before. Because it's publicized now, people care.

They care until the media shifts the focus to the next shiny object that comes along.

 

[monkeyswrench]

They care until the media shifts the focus to the next shiny object that comes along.

Sad but true. The public has the attention span of a gnat, and no long term memory to speak of.

 

[sirbob]

Ask Sherman about the rules of war…

Sherman's March to the Sea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[monkeyswrench]

Ask Sherman about the rules of war…

Sherman's March to the Sea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Never read this before:
"VII. Negroes who are able-bodied and can be of service to the several columns may be taken along, but each army commander will bear in mind that the question of supplies is a very important one and that his first duty is to see to them who bear arms..."

The previous articles were written about what troops could take from civilians. Then Article VII...If they took slaves, which they were at war to free. I've read about Sherman's march, but never read any of the rules for engagement set forth.

 

[Lumpy]

YES!

WIN or DIE.

Those are the RULES.

 

[monkeyswrench]

YES!

WIN or DIE.

Those are the RULES.

Pretty damn accurate guidelines there

 

[Racer56]

The ban is not about the effectiveness or ethicassy of using cluster bombs against enemy soldiers, it's about the fact that most cluster bombs manufactured by other countries have a defect rate of up to 40% leaving thousands of unexploded bombs that can kill civilians.

 

[Nanu/Nanu]

The one rule of war is someone needs to launder a fuck load of money now.

Disclaimer: i have been drinking

But honestly think about it ever since WW2 no country has ever been victorious from a war that was declared.

Why?

 

[monkeyswrench]

The one rule of war is someone needs to launder a fuck load of money now.

Disclaimer: i have been drinking

But honestly think about it ever since WW2 no country has ever been victorious from a war that was declared.

Why?

Don't bring logic into this, drinking or not!

 

[Orange Juice]

After Russia’s “Putin organization“ crumbles, and Russians joins NATO, there’s going to be a 50 year rebuilding period of growth, and a focus on Asian relationships and trade. Russia will eventually pay for Ukraine’s rebuilding.

It starts getting real, when Ukraine retaliates inside Russia, and Russia has a brain fart on the frontline, and a chunk of Russias army walks away in protest.

I can tell you having been there, the focus of war is retaliation, in the heat of a battle. Cluster bombs, chemical weapons, nuke’s, it’s all part of the end game. What makes our military the leader a world power, is the massive amount of destruction we would inflict on Moscow, Middle East, in the first 30 days of any war.

Any peace agreement going forward would probably include NATO military bases inside Ukraine.

 

[Orange Juice]

“
After taking around 300,000 Polish prisoners in 1939 and early 1940, NKVD officers conducted lengthy interrogations of the prisoners in camps that were, in effect, a selection process to determine who would be killed. On March 5, 1940, pursuant to a note to Stalin from Lavrenty Beria, the members of the Soviet Politburo(including Stalin) signed and 22,000 military and intellectuals were executed - They were labelled "nationalists and counterrevolutionaries", kept at camps and prisons in occupied western Ukraine and Belarus. This became known as the Katyn massacre. Major-GeneralVasili M. Blokhin, chief executioner for the NKVD, personally shot 6,000 of the captured Polish officers in 28 consecutive nights, which remains one of the most organized and protracted mass murders by a single individual on record. During his 29-year career Blokhin shot an estimated 50,000 people, making him ostensibly the most prolific official executioner in recorded world history.

In August 1939, Stalin declared that he was going to "solve the Baltic problem, and thereafter, forced Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia to sign treaties for "mutual assistance."
”

 

[rsvrdogs]

Only the dead have seen the end of war

 

[havasujeeper]

They care until the media shifts the focus to the next white powdery substance is found in the White House that comes along.

FIFY

 

[Blackmagic94]

Absolutely shocking we are supplying them to Ukraine. Not good. Lots don’t explode and kids end up sometimes finding them and blowing themselves up

There aren’t any kids in the trenches of the front lines there.

 

[Blackmagic94]

The ban is not about the effectiveness or ethicassy of using cluster bombs against enemy soldiers, it's about the fact that most cluster bombs manufactured by other countries have a defect rate of up to 40% leaving thousands of unexploded bombs that can kill civilians.

Ours are rated at 2.5%. People debate that they are 20% in the field. But what we are sending are a newer design with the lower rate

 

[Taboma]

“
After taking around 300,000 Polish prisoners in 1939 and early 1940, NKVD officers conducted lengthy interrogations of the prisoners in camps that were, in effect, a selection process to determine who would be killed. On March 5, 1940, pursuant to a note to Stalin from Lavrenty Beria, the members of the Soviet Politburo(including Stalin) signed and 22,000 military and intellectuals were executed - They were labelled "nationalists and counterrevolutionaries", kept at camps and prisons in occupied western Ukraine and Belarus. This became known as the Katyn massacre. Major-GeneralVasili M. Blokhin, chief executioner for the NKVD, personally shot 6,000 of the captured Polish officers in 28 consecutive nights, which remains one of the most organized and protracted mass murders by a single individual on record. During his 29-year career Blokhin shot an estimated 50,000 people, making him ostensibly the most prolific official executioner in recorded world history.

In August 1939, Stalin declared that he was going to "solve the Baltic problem, and thereafter, forced Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia to sign treaties for "mutual assistance."
”

Most all the Older Germans I worked with in the early 70's, told me stories of how, near the end, once they realized they'd lost the war, they'd fled to the US lines to surrender in order to avoid capture and the known atrocities being committed by the advancing Russians.

None harboring any ill will as a result of their time spent in US POW camps, all having been shipped to and incarcerated in various areas of the USA, and spoke highly of their humane treatment.