Does Donner Pass flow to Havasu?

[Spudsbud]

Mead be lovin this snow/rain !

 

[79 HUSTLER]

No

 

[Kachina26]

No

 

[renodaytona]

Donner pass is way up north if that's the one you are talking about. It's about 50 min from my house, lots of snow currently. Boral ski resort sits at the top of the pass and is reporting 137" of packed powder base. That water melts and flows into Donner lake then into the Truckee river. Some of it ends up in lahontan reservoir. It also flows over the hill and down into the American rover and into Folsom.

 

[boatpi]

Does a bear shit in the woods?

 

[Sportin' Wood]

Map of the River Systems of the United States

Copy 3 has variant title on plate XVIIa. Phillips, 1330 Available also through the Library of Congress Web site as a raster image. AACR2 Copy 2 replaced with another copy 4/2000

www.loc.gov

 

[Bobby V]

Does a bear shit in the woods?

Not a Polar Bear.

 

[DUNEFLYER]

Cool map of where the rain drop ends up

River Runner

Watch the path of a raindrop from anywhere in the contiguous United States

river-runner.samlearner.com

 

[Ziggy]

Cool map of where the rain drop ends up

River Runner

Watch the path of a raindrop from anywhere in the contiguous United States

river-runner.samlearner.com

Cool site.

 

[Todd Mohr]

That's cool as F

 

[mothershipper]

It ends up in Lake Pyramid

 

[Flyinbowtie]

The Truckee river originates in Tahoe City, that gate is controlled and only releases when the lake is high enough and all the powers that be agree.
Some summers it is pretty much dry, others it flows right along, you can rent a raft and float the river...pretty peaceful on a weekday.
The Truckee River meanders back into the Town of Truckee from Tahoe City, then turns east, and runs down canyon towards Reno, picking up water from Stampede, Boca, and Prosser, and some from Donner lake itself. The creek out of Donner that feeds into the Truckee is Donner Lake's only outlet I believe. Once you go west over Donner Summit, the rivers in that area drain via the American, Yuba, and Feather Rivers all ultimately wind up in the Sacramento River.
The Truckee flows right through downtown Reno and out to Fernley then out to Pyramid Lake, as Mothershipper stated.
Pyramid is an ancient lake, and part of the Paiute Nation. The Pyramid Paiute Tribe controls it.
That lake has no outlet...it is a "dead end".
If you are a fisherman, or just interested in this stuff, check out the Lahontan Cutthroat Trout fishing at Pyramid....
Fishing is also controlled by The Tribe, I've been out there fishing twice way back when, no joy in our boat but I have seen some huge fish come out of that lake, I mean huge.

If you are ever heading to Reno through Truckee on I-80 keep a close watch on the River just past the Stampede cut off. If you look you will get a brief glance of a "house" right on the river, opposite the UP railroad.
This is The Tahoe Truckee Flycasters private club.
This place was founded by the railroad barons who would take a train up there, stop and have themselves a fishing expedition during the seasons.
A private exclusive outfit then and now.
I was fortunate enough to get a tour once, during the off season, with a member. The history in there is unbeleiveable, the guestbook reads like a whos who of the late 1800's-early 1900's, and they have some of the fishing tackle the guests used. The photos and paintings on the walls are also amazing.

 

[Eliminator21vdrive]

The Truckee river originates in Tahoe City, that gate is controlled and only releases when the lake is high enough and all the powers that be agree.
Some summers it is pretty much dry, others it flows right along, you can rent a raft and float the river...pretty peaceful on a weekday.
The Truckee River meanders back into the Town of Truckee from Tahoe City, then turns east, and runs down canyon towards Reno, picking up water from Stampede, Boca, and Prosser, and some from Donner lake itself. The creek out of Donner that feeds into the Truckee is Donner Lake's only outlet I believe. Once you go west over Donner Summit, the rivers in that area drain via the American, Yuba, and Feather Rivers all ultimately wind up in the Sacramento River.
The Truckee flows right through downtown Reno and out to Fernley then out to Pyramid Lake, as Mothershipper stated.
Pyramid is an ancient lake, and part of the Paiute Nation. The Pyramid Paiute Tribe controls it.
That lake has no outlet...it is a "dead end".
If you are a fisherman, or just interested in this stuff, check out the Lahontan Cutthroat Trout fishing at Pyramid....
Fishing is also controlled by The Tribe, I've been out there fishing twice way back when, no joy in our boat but I have seen some huge fish come out of that lake, I mean huge.

If you are ever heading to Reno through Truckee on I-80 keep a close watch on the River just past the Stampede cut off. If you look you will get a brief glance of a "house" right on the river, opposite the UP railroad.
This is The Tahoe Truckee Flycasters private club.
This place was founded by the railroad barons who would take a train up there, stop and have themselves a fishing expedition during the seasons.
A private exclusive outfit then and now.
I was fortunate enough to get a tour once, during the off season, with a member. The history in there is unbeleiveable, the guestbook reads like a whos who of the late 1800's-early 1900's, and they have some of the fishing tackle the guests used. The photos and paintings on the walls are also amazing.

Careful how many and size of fish due to mercury levels......

 

[jet496]

...ultimately wind up in the Sacramento River.

Here in Southern Cal we used to rely on a large portion of water from the Sacramento River until they quit pumping it here due to harming the Smelt fish (that happened around 10 years ago.) The way I picture it, all that fresh water is wasted & just dumping into the ocean.

How much is actually wasted into the ocean? Or is it just us in Southern Cal being denied any of it while they use it all up there in the bay area?

 

[OLDRAAT]

Does a bear shit in the woods?

 

[Icky]

Cool map of where the rain drop ends up

River Runner

Watch the path of a raindrop from anywhere in the contiguous United States

river-runner.samlearner.com

Very cool, I just wasted 20 mins of my life though

 

[1manshow]

Here in Southern Cal we used to rely on a large portion of water from the Sacramento River until they quit pumping it here due to harming the Smelt fish (that happened around 10 years ago.) The way I picture it, all that fresh water is wasted & just dumping into the ocean.

How much is actually wasted into the ocean? Or is it just us in Southern Cal being denied any of it while they use it all up there in the bay area?

4 million acre feet of fresh rainwater has now become saltwater nobody can use. It's an amount of water equal to filling up San Luis Reservoir from empty, two times. This water will not be used to recharge groundwater, for Sustainable Groundwater Management Act compliance (SGMA), to grow our food, lower our water bills, arrest subsidence, restore dry wells, or improve water quality by diluting the concentration of toxins. It is gone, and it happened under the guise of producing a recovery of smelt nobody has seen after five years of Fall Midwater Trawling surveys. The graph below is the outflow of water that passes thru the delta out to the ocean.

cfs X 2 = acre feet per 24 hour period.
1 acre foot is enough water for 10 people for a year.
We have lost a supply of water equal to meeting the needs of 40 million people for a year since these storms began.
#ManMadeDrought

Sources here: https://cdec.water.ca.gov/dynamicapp/QueryDaily?s=DTO&end=2023-01-17&span=30days

CDFW - Under Maintenance Page

 

[Flyinbowtie]

1manshow nailed it.
There is a known amount of water that needs to be sent downriver to keep the tides from pushing salt water from the bay up into the delta, destroying that ecosystem and ruining the Ag business in the process. That is what should be the baseline flow.
It ain't.
Fix that.
California's water "problems" are of it's own making; when you have "leaders" who, for 40 years or more, have shut down infrastructure development catering to the leftest hoards, while the population has boomed... the results are gonna be what we have today, every single time.
Now we hear them talking about adding storage for the first time in decades. Of course, even if the political will existed to do it the Eco-Socialists will tie up the plan in litigation for 25 years. There was talk a few years ago of raising Shasta Dam. I don't know where that went.
Just my opinion having lived in NorCal and having friends down in the valley who actually do run real live family farms, and have for generations, but here is how I see it.
This state can't depend on a couple of highly stressed water sources to feed the population and Ag anymore, and the latter feeds the former.
The Colorado River and the Snowpack of the Sierras are poorly managed and the infrastructure extremely outdated.
Fix that.
SoCal needs to develop DeSal plants, and NorCal needs more reservoirs, and logic needs to be applied to the delta.
Of course, the grid isn't able to support huge DeSal plants because it is also outdated and poorly managed, and there ain't enough windmills or other perpetual motion machines to make it happen, hell we can't even keep our AC's on in the summer. In the Sacramenot area there are a few small, isolated electrical generation plants that are kept ready to go in the event the whole shebang drops below the red line on power, and they fired these up last summer. Efficient, fairly new, and reliable.
Guess what they run on?
Natural gas, you know that stuff that runs lots of ovens and stoves...the stoves they want to eliminate.
Morons. Idiots. People who have had it too good for too long.
Fix that.
See the pattern?
This state has tremendous potential, it needs to get it's shit together.
That won't happen until the people wake up and demand it. And the people won't wake up until the, "water shortage" hits their tap, in their house.
Same with the electrical grid.
I am old enough now to see things I feared as a young man happening. Our society is devolving before our very eyes, our culture is collapsing faster than our infrastructure.
Ayn Rand's fictional works are starting to look a lot less fictional.
Rant Over.

 

[Jim]

So all that meltoff doesnt go somewhere to do some good? Even if not south where its needed?
Cali even fucks the citizens on free water !!!

 

[stephenkatsea]

That River Runner app is interesting.

 

[boatpi]

But Cali voters voted for a train to nowhere. You cannot fix stupid.

 

[hman442]

Meanwhile, up north,

 

[4Waters]

View attachment 1191024

Must have gotten into the Taco Bell trash

 

[stephenkatsea]

Jarbidge area north of Elko NV gets a good snowfall. Surprisingly, that runoff actually makes its way to the Pacific Ocean, first via the Snake River then into the Columbia and on into the Pacific.

 

[MPHSystems]

Not a Polar Bear.

Polar bear kills mother, 1-year-old son after rampage through remote Alaska village

A polar bear chased down and killed a woman and her 1-year-old son when it entered a remote village in Alaska before it was shot by a resident.

abcnews.go.com

 

[1manshow]

Brian Dahle - CA Senator on Instagram: "California is in the middle of a severe water supply crisis that threatens our economic stability, security, and growth. #CA needs a comprehensive water plan to combat our water crisis, and storage projects suc

3,624 likes, 150 comments - briandahleca on January 18, 2023: "California is in the middle of a severe water supply crisis that threatens our economic stability, security, and growth. #CA needs a comprehensive water plan to combat our water crisis, and storage projects such as, Sites Reservoir...

www.instagram.com

 

[DaytonaBabe]

Cool map of where the rain drop ends up

River Runner

Watch the path of a raindrop from anywhere in the contiguous United States

river-runner.samlearner.com

Thanks for sharing that site! Very cool I love maps, so I'll probably be wasting a lot of time with this

 

[Uncle Dave]

4 million acre feet of fresh rainwater has now become saltwater nobody can use. It's an amount of water equal to filling up San Luis Reservoir from empty, two times. This water will not be used to recharge groundwater, for Sustainable Groundwater Management Act compliance (SGMA), to grow our food, lower our water bills, arrest subsidence, restore dry wells, or improve water quality by diluting the concentration of toxins. It is gone, and it happened under the guise of producing a recovery of smelt nobody has seen after five years of Fall Midwater Trawling surveys. The graph below is the outflow of water that passes thru the delta out to the ocean.

cfs X 2 = acre feet per 24 hour period.
1 acre foot is enough water for 10 people for a year.
We have lost a supply of water equal to meeting the needs of 40 million people for a year since these storms began.
#ManMadeDrought

Sources here: https://cdec.water.ca.gov/dynamicapp/QueryDaily?s=DTO&end=2023-01-17&span=30days

CDFW - Under Maintenance Page

View attachment 1191077

I'm confused, but always up for a good conspiracy.

Delta flow rate is determined by the release of water above the delta and the myriad of un damned contributing streams to it which would not be caught. (Runoff)

Because you cant control non captured streams - for the outflow to be 'wasted" it would mean one or more of the reservoirs upstream are releasing more than they should at any given time.

I dont see any evidence that any of the reservoirs are releasing more than they should? Is there a reservoir anyone can point to that is?

I'm in full agreement we should build more dams but I'm unsure whose land we steal at this point to do it and sites looks like the only viable place.

IS the assertion here we should damm up all these contributing streams and rivers to catch the flow ?

 

[Racey]

Pretty much everything on the eastern side of the sierras goes into the sink hole known as the Great Basin, which is exactly what it sounds like, a giant bowl that has no exit. It gets absorbed into ground water if it eventually makes it to a dry lake bed.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I'm confused, but always up for a good conspiracy.

Delta flow rate is determined by the release of water above the delta and the myriad of un damned contributing streams to it which would not be caught. (Runoff)

Because you cant control non captured streams - for the outflow to be 'wasted" it would mean one or more of the reservoirs upstream are releasing more than they should at any given time.

I dont see any evidence that any of the reservoirs are releasing more than they should? Is there a reservoir anyone can point to that is?

I'm in full agreement we should build more dams but I'm unsure whose land we steal at this point to do it and sites looks like the only viable place.

IS the assertion here we should damm up all these contributing streams and rivers to catch the flow ?


View attachment 1197548

I'm confused, but always up for a good conspiracy.

Delta flow rate is determined by the release of water above the delta and the myriad of un damned contributing streams to it which would not be caught. (Runoff)

Because you cant control non captured streams - for the outflow to be 'wasted" it would mean one or more of the reservoirs upstream are releasing more than they should at any given time.

I dont see any evidence that any of the reservoirs are releasing more than they should? Is there a reservoir anyone can point to that is?

I'm in full agreement we should build more dams but I'm unsure whose land we steal at this point to do it and sites looks like the only viable place.

IS the assertion here we should damm up all these contributing streams and rivers to catch the flow ?


View attachment 1197548

In 2018 CA said every reservoir in the state was full and the state government said we had water for 5 years.

2 years later they said we were in a water emergency.

They are either lying, stupid, or let more water out of the reservoirs than they should.

Considering 50% of the states retained water simply is released to the ocean, it stands to reason that it may be a combination of all 3.

A state that borders the ocean should not be in a drought condition ever with today’s technology.

 

[Uncle Dave]

In 2018 CA said every reservoir in the state was full and we had water for 5 years.

2 years later they said we were in a water emergency.

They are either lying, stupid, or let more water out of the reservoirs than they should.

Considering 50% of the states retained water simply is released to the ocean, it stands to reason that it may be a combination of all 3.

A state that borders the ocean should not be in a drought condition ever with today’s technology.

The state makes all kinds of claims and is probably all 3.

The army corp of engineers/ US bureau of reclamation controls release for most of the bigger dams.
Release schedules are by and large fixed for what they have to let out vs what conditions are rain wise and whats in the snowpack.
Are these algos correct? Probably conservative.

That doesnt answer the question as to where we can currently store runoff water that runs into the delta ?

The accusation was that that water flow to the delta was " wasted excess " but there is no place to catch most of it because it was runoff vs release.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

The state makes all kinds of claims and is probably all 3.

The army corp of engineers controls release for most of the bigger dams.
Release schedules are by and large fixed for what they have to let out vs what conditions are rain wise and whats in the snowpack.
Are these algos correct? Probably conservative.

That doenst answer the question as to where we can currently store runoff water that runs into the delta ?

The accusation was that that water flow to the delta was " wasted excess " but there is no place to catch most of it because it was runoff vs release.

That’s the problem.. there is no where to store it. The money from the bullet train to nowhere could have solved all the states water retention problems 10 years ago, but the greens despise dams. This is also why Powell and Mead are drained and kept low.

The original infrastructure that was promised 50+ years ago in CA to store and supply water was never finished.

Given the state reservoir capacity today, their inability to produce fresh water from the ocean, and their inability retain water from rainfall, the answer to your question is to not release a drop more to the ocean than is absolutely needed.

This is all to say that residential, commercial and municipal water uses less than 10% of the total supply. Environmental Releases and Ag make up the other 90% of water use.

Squeezing people living in houses with pools or watering lawns does nothing.

What if they released 5% less water into the ocean from the near 50% of the total supply they currently release?

We can’t have that, water bills will go down and we can’t say we are in a water emergency.

 

[Uncle Dave]

That’s the problem.. there is no where to store it. The money from the bullet train to nowhere could have solved all the states water retention problems 10 years ago, but the greens despise dams. This is also why Powell and Mead are drained and kept low.

The original infrastructure that was promised 50+ years ago in CA to store and supply water was never finished.

Given the state reservoir capacity today, their inability to produce fresh water from the ocean, and their inability retain water from rainfall, the answer to your question is to not release a drop more to the ocean than is absolutely needed.

This is all to say that residential, commercial and municipal water uses less than 10% of the total supply. Environmental Releases and Ag make up the other 90% of water use.

Squeezing people living in houses with pools or watering lawns does nothing.

What if they released 5% less water into the ocean from the near 50% of the total supply they currently release?

We can’t have that, water bills will go down and we can’t say we are in a water emergency.

I think it's more 80/20 but Im aligned. That isnt what Im questioning.

Im questioning labelling runoff water as " wasted excess" because thats what makes up the vast majority of that number.
OF course this number is going to be huge during large rainstorms.

It makes for lots of likes and great stories but that water was never caught to begin with and it would take 20-30 dams to catch it.

As a guy that actually has water rights on my land parcel I watch this closer than most.

Whose land do we steal to address the problem?

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I think it's more 80/20 but Im aligned. That isnt what Im questioning.

Im questioning labelling runoff water as " wasted excess" because thats what makes up the vast majority of that number.
OF course this number is going to be huge during large rainstorms.

It makes for lots of likes and great stories but that water was never caught to begin with and it would take 20-30 dams to catch it.

As a guy that actually has water rights on my land parcel I watch this closer than most.

Whose land do we steal to address the problem?

Yes we are mostly in alignment.

Water Use in California

To understand California’s water, start here. Water use in California varies dramatically between wet and dry years: learn who’s using California’s water, where, and how much.

www.ppic.org

To answer your question, the easy answer is you don’t have to steal land from anyone. Retain more water with what we have. Fix the Salton Sea. Store water there for So Cal. And stop letting more water out than needed.

Again, there will always be environmental releases. Does it need to be 50% in dry years? Could it be 40%? That would double the amount of water for urban use. That does not fit any narrative, so it is not going to happen.

So Cal let’s nearly all it’s water run to the ocean. It relies on the Colorado for 50% of its water. It could reduce its reliance on the Colorado to almost nothing if it actually retained falling water.

If we do need to steal land then steal it.

We seemed to have no problems getting land to build a train that never got built.

These are solvable problems. There is just no political capital to solve them.

 

[jetboatperformance]

Does a bear shit in the woods?

Yes ....

 

[Uncle Dave]

Yes we are mostly in alignment.

Water Use in California

To understand California’s water, start here. Water use in California varies dramatically between wet and dry years: learn who’s using California’s water, where, and how much.

www.ppic.org

To answer your question, the easy answer is you don’t have to steal land from anyone. Retain more water with what we have. Fix the Salton Sea. Store water there for So Cal. And stop letting more water out than needed.

Again, there will always be environmental releases. Does it need to be 50% in dry years? Could it be 40%? That would double the amount of water for urban use. That does not fit any narrative, so it is not going to happen.

So Cal let’s nearly all it’s water run to the ocean. It relies on the Colorado for 50% of its water. It could reduce its reliance on the Colorado to almost nothing if it actually retained falling water.

If we do need to steal land then steal it.

We seemed to have no problems getting land to build a train that never got built.

These are solvable problems. There is just no political capital to solve them.

None of that would stop the chart above from occurring every big rainfall.

I do not believe we have enough capacity, but I agree we can probably keep more by changing the " release rules".

there's capacity release based on rain and snowpack - FAFO if you get this wrong.
There's hydropower continuous flow (often enough to keep rivers going)
There's water fulfillment through the aqueduct
There's release to keep rivers flowing

I assume you mean dry up the rivers? (Im only as green as my wallets concerned so no offense to me)
OR do you mean cut the hydro?

Salton sea flushed and pumped back up....hmmm interesting anybody actually look into this?

I think piping the columbia discharge down make more sense than bringing the miss across.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

None of that would stop the chart above from occurring every big rainfall.

I do not believe we have enough capacity, but I agree we can probably keep more by changing the " release rules".

there's capacity release based on rain and snowpack - FAFO if you get this wrong.
There's hydropower continuous flow
There's water fulfillment through the aqueduct
There's release to keep rivers flowing

I assume you mean dry up the rivers? (Im only as green as my wallets concerned so no offense to me)

Agreed. There are short and long term solutions. Short term is change release rules.

To your point, if we dried up rivers, we would have a capacity shortage in CA.

To that end we have an empty Mead and an empty Powell, and a dying Salton Sea A pipe and a pump are tried and true solutions

We have more than a 2 century history of taking land in the name of the greater good. If we need to do that great. I don’t see it happening because no one in CA wants to solve the problem.

When the faucets in CA homes run dry I’ll believe there is a supply problem. If that happens in a state bordering an ocean, CA deserves what it gets I suppose.