Dodge cummins help

[spectra3279]

Wouldn't the edge have the same problem an my vivid with 50hp injectors? As in it wouldn't be tuned for them, would be setup for stock injectors

 

[monkeyswrench]

Wouldn't the edge have the same problem an my vivid with 50hp injectors? As in it wouldn't be tuned for them, would be setup for stock injectors

I think it depends on how the tune, or tuner, derives it's gains. I'm not a tuner guru, but I know that initial injector timing changes of 4-5 degrees can make a significant difference. Just a timing change may not be a bad thing, but if the tune is then set for more fuel, it may get confused because of things like temps, desired RPM or rail pressure. Really, I think just talking to the tuner or manufacturer of the tuner, would know off hand.

 

[spectra3279]

I think it depends on how the tune, or tuner, derives it's gains. I'm not a tuner guru, but I know that initial injector timing changes of 4-5 degrees can make a significant difference. Just a timing change may not be a bad thing, but if the tune is then set for more fuel, it may get confused because of things like temps, desired RPM or rail pressure. Really, I think just talking to the tuner or manufacturer of the tuner, would know off hand.

Was gonna call and see what they said. My vivid is no longer supported. Superchips dropped it when the bought them

 

[Colton]

Its the angle of the nozzle orifice that's the problem on the early vs late 5.9 cr stuff. Technically your timing (when the injector fires) would be unchanged from early to late style injector based on the current tune. Early style 03 and 04 piston bowl was different than later on 5.9 cr bowl, one piston had a narrow bowl and the other was a wider bowl. Hopefully that makes some sense.

 

[Colton]

So in theory you could run a 100% over nozzle , a 50hp nozzle or any nozzle orifice larger than oem with your current tune as long as the spray angle on the nozzle matches the piston bowl design in that year engine.

 

[OCMerrill]

I personally own 3 5.9's and one 6.7. I have replaced injectors in all three 5.9's and its not all that difficult, just time consuming. The Cummins in the ocean cat take a special part number and were purchased from Seaboard Marine in Oxnard. Be happy you dont need those at $450 ea.

My 2004 ram injectors (not a 2004.5 which takes a different Injector) I replaced a couple years ago as a kit from Industrial Injection and included the tubes. Comes in a nice kit around $2000 and yes you can step up to the 50 hp if you want. I already have the Smarty Jr tow tune on the truck and the truck goes well as it sits currently. I also have a Fass stand alone lift pump but still use the canister filter and that kit comes with what you need to rid the small pump on the side of the filter housing.

The whole install went well and the truck runs great.

Back 10 years ago the truck dead pedaled me in an intersection. The TPS as MW is describing is actually called an APPS. Accelerator pedal position sensor.
In a 2003-2004 its under a plastic cover near the front of the engine on the drivers side and actuated by the gas pedal and cable. I would use the Turbo Diesel Register forum and ask who makes the customized APPS as if I remember right his name was Tim. He takes a sensor of a big boy cummins and adapts it to fit. I did this and never a problem in the 10+ years so far. Also try Genos Garage. The factory APPS is a POS and will eventually leave you stranded.

Lastly...You need to monitor a few things and check a few things hopefully to cure the stumble or rough idle.

Contribution test - I dont see a path to just replace one Inj. IMO. Get yourself back to a level playing field. Remember they fire at least twice every power stroke..
Take the valve cover off and check all the injector nuts. They could be loose after all someone's been in there.
The valve cover gasket has all the injector wiring embedded into the gasket. Wires can crack inside the gasket.
There are three injector plugs where the engine harness connects with the cover gasket harness. Loose connection? Bent pins during reassembly?
The person who replaced the injector allowed dirt?
Fuel Rail Pressure Actuator or Sensor is failing (rare)
Verify your new pump is putting decent pressure the the CP3 pump

I am pretty well versed in these engines. hopefully you get it sorted.

 

[OCMerrill]

Its the angle of the nozzle orifice that's the problem on the early vs late 5.9 cr stuff. Technically your timing (when the injector fires) would be unchanged from early to late style injector based on the current tune. Early style 03 and 04 piston bowl was different than later on 5.9 cr bowl, one piston had a narrow bowl and the other was a wider bowl. Hopefully that makes some sense.

The injectors need to match the piston. 2003-04 has 8 hole injectors. Using a 5 hole (2004.5 and up) could result a melted piston with even a mild tune. Its where the nozzle sprays for the most part. It has been stated though that an 8 hole can be used in all CR 5.9's and extrude honing they can make big power in all CR years.

 

[spectra3279]

I personally own 3 5.9's and one 6.7. I have replaced injectors in all three 5.9's and its not all that difficult, just time consuming. The Cummins in the ocean cat take a special part number and were purchased from Seaboard Marine in Oxnard. Be happy you dont need those at $450 ea.

My 2004 ram injectors (not a 2004.5 which takes a different Injector) I replaced a couple years ago as a kit from Industrial Injection and included the tubes. Comes in a nice kit around $2000 and yes you can step up to the 50 hp if you want. I already have the Smarty Jr tow tune on the truck and the truck goes well as it sits currently. I also have a Fass stand alone lift pump but still use the canister filter and that kit comes with what you need to rid the small pump on the side of the filter housing.

The whole install went well and the truck runs great.

Back 10 years ago the truck dead pedaled me in an intersection. The TPS as MW is describing is actually called an APPS. Accelerator pedal position sensor.
In a 2003-2004 its under a plastic cover near the front of the engine on the drivers side and actuated by the gas pedal and cable. I would use the Turbo Diesel Register forum and ask who makes the customized APPS as if I remember right his name was Tim. He takes a sensor of a big boy cummins and adapts it to fit. I did this and never a problem in the 10+ years so far. Also try Genos Garage. The factory APPS is a POS and will eventually leave you stranded.

Lastly...You need to monitor a few things and check a few things hopefully to cure the stumble or rough idle.

Contribution test - I dont see a path to just replace one Inj. IMO. Get yourself back to a level playing field. Remember they fire at least twice every power stroke..
Take the valve cover off and check all the injector nuts. They could be loose after all someone's been in there.
The valve cover gasket has all the injector wiring embedded into the gasket. Wires can crack inside the gasket.
There are three injector plugs where the engine harness connects with the cover gasket harness. Loose connection? Bent pins during reassembly?
The person who replaced the injector allowed dirt?
Fuel Rail Pressure Actuator or Sensor is failing (rare)
Verify your new pump is putting decent pressure the the CP3 pump

I am pretty well versed in these engines. hopefully you get it sorted.

Don't have the fass pump, but it does basically the same, it still uses the factory filter but replaces the pump on the filter with a machined block. Just did this 2 weeks ago. Still running the original cp3.

Had planned on doing all injectors but at the time needed it running. Now I have my dad's car so I can take some time to replace them all.

 

[spectra3279]

The injectors need to match the piston. 2003-04 has 8 hole injectors. Using a 5 hole (2004.5 and up) could result a melted piston with even a mild tune. Its where the nozzle sprays for the most part. It has been stated though that an 8 hole can be used in all CR 5.9's and extrude honing they can make big power in all CR years.

So if I do use 50hp injectors, do I need to have a custom tune?

 

[monkeyswrench]

Reading Merrill's post reminded me: If you do the injectors, don't overtighten the harness nuts on top of them. Like a 2mm stud. Seen guys Crack them on install, and they do goofy stuff. Also, if broken, no core credit or returns from any supplier I've seen.

In this pic, you can see the studs on top. The retainer on the far right I use a socket to remove. On some, I've found a belt tensioner tool, the flat bar with the 1/2" square drive, fits where a ratchet won't. When you pop the injector(s), check to make sure the copper ring came out with it. Also, check to make sure someone else didn't double them up. Hard to do on a Cummins because of the feed tube, but I still check.

 

[spectra3279]

So based on reading some stuff from the turbo diesel register, my problem could be the fca.


Still gonna get video of the issue and one when I shut off injector 3 and one of the others. As It doesn't make any real difference when I shut it off.

 

[spectra3279]

Here is a video of it starting. Got some black and white smoke

 

[OCMerrill]

Here is a video of it starting. Got some black and white smoke

Certainly not excessive however that thing is not happy. In my list is the fuel control actuator. Its rare but happens.

I dont think you will need any special tune but check with the reseller. White smoke is generally raw fuel. Black smoke may be from the way it currently running.
My 04 no smoke even when pedal down. That said what triggered the injector replace was random loping and running poor along with white smoke at startup.
Injector replacement cured it.

The nuts on the injectors are 10-11 INCH lbs.

 

[spectra3279]

For the price, I'm just gonna change the fca. Then maybe do all the injectors if the number 3 still doesn't change idle when it's shut off. I figure after 350k miles, the current ones don't owe me anything anymore.

 

[OCMerrill]

For the price, I'm just gonna change the fca. Then maybe do all the injectors if the number 3 still doesn't change idle when it's shut off. I figure after 350k miles, the current ones don't owe me anything anymore.

If you have an infra-red heat gun you can see what cylinders are producing as you shut them down. 350K i wish we could have made it that far.

 

[pwerwagn]

I would use the Turbo Diesel Register forum and ask who makes the customized APPS as if I remember right his name was Tim. He takes a sensor of a big boy cummins and adapts it to fit. I did this and never a problem in the 10+ years so far. Also try Genos Garage. The factory APPS is a POS and will eventually leave you stranded.

Timbo is his name on TDR. http://www.dodgecumminsapps.com/ is the website, lots of info on his APPS swap there. Genos sells his APPS also. I actually just ordered one about 30 min ago for a truck im working on haha.


OP...with that many miles on injectors buy new injectors. BBI is the best for those trucks, in my opinion. Just go with the stage 0.1 or 0.5's, both will work just fine with stock tuning. Be careful with injectors on the 03-early 04 motors, if you get an injector that hangs open longer than the others and have a cylinder temp rise in one cylinder you wont see it in EGT or coolant temp. The 03-early 04 motors have an issue dropping valve seats when that happens, Ive had to do heads on that motor 10-1 compared to the 04.5 and newer motors.

 

[OCMerrill]

Timbo is his name on TDR. http://www.dodgecumminsapps.com/ is the website, lots of info on his APPS swap there. Genos sells his APPS also. I actually just ordered one about 30 min ago for a truck im working on haha.


OP...with that many miles on injectors buy new injectors. BBI is the best for those trucks, in my opinion. Just go with the stage 0.1 or 0.5's, both will work just fine with stock tuning. Be careful with injectors on the 03-early 04 motors, if you get an injector that hangs open longer than the others and have a cylinder temp rise in one cylinder you wont see it in EGT or coolant temp. The 03-early 04 motors have an issue dropping valve seats when that happens, Ive had to do heads on that motor 10-1 compared to the 04.5 and newer motors.

Timbo. Back when I purchased one they were like $160 sent from Timbo. Genos was not selling them back then however a saw it in their latest catalog.

I would not recommend fueling a 03-04 because, like you said...would be difficult to monitor a single cylinder and risk Valve seat issues. The smarty Jr I have for this 04 was so I could program the abs module for tire size and with that being successful I went and stuck the tow tune in there. 2004.5 and up much better platform to place that 100 hp tune on.

 

[spectra3279]

Timbo. Back when I purchased one they were like $160 sent from Timbo. Genos was not selling them back then however a saw it in their latest catalog.

I would not recommend fueling a 03-04 because, like you said...would be difficult to monitor a single cylinder and risk Valve seat issues. The smarty Jr I have for this 04 was so I could program the abs module for tire size and with that being successful I went and stuck the tow tune in there. 2004.5 and up much better platform to place that 100 hp tune on.

I've had this tune on it since I got it. Bought the truck with 148k back in 2012. This is the first actual issue the engine has ever had

 

[spectra3279]

If you have an infra-red heat gun you can see what cylinders are producing as you shut them down. 350K i wish we could have made it that far.

If I shut the injector off, is gonna hurt anything running like that while I check the temps?

 

[DarkHorseRacing]

If I shut the injector off, is gonna hurt anything running like that while I check the temps?

Wouldn't that cylinder be acting like an air brake? No fuel=not lean. Just bouncing the piston off the air pocket.

 

[monkeyswrench]

If I shut the injector off, is gonna hurt anything running like that while I check the temps?

If that cylinder doesn't make much/any difference now, shutting it down may not change the Temps much anyway. No fuel, no power...no heat. Balance and harmonics go to crap, just don't hot rod it.

 

[mjc]

I just had injectors done on my Dmax in my RV. They put in parts from Jasper engines. They have the best warranty of all from what I found out. I was getting pressure loss at the injectors I could watch the fuel pressure drop on hill until I got an error that caused a power. They wanted to test them but I decided I didn't want to spend 45 per injector to replace them anyway. Not your engine but just what had to do.

 

[Big B Hova]

Both batteries good? Mine started to fail in my 07 mega cab and it would act funny

 

[spectra3279]

If that cylinder doesn't make much/any difference now, shutting it down may not change the Temps much anyway. No fuel, no power...no heat. Balance and harmonics go to crap, just don't hot rod it.

Runs smoth whether it's enabled or not. Other 5 cylinders make it shake.

I'm treating as if 2 problems.

 

[spectra3279]

Both batteries good? Mine started to fail in my 07 mega cab and it would act funny

Hold 12.6 volts with key off, running is about 14.8

 

[OCMerrill]

Hold 12.6 volts with key off, running is about 14.8

The PCM is completely in control of the charging system. They can run ridiculously high voltages which causes the batteries to outgas and the cable connections start to corrode. Likely the injection system likes that high of voltage.

A Cylinder Contribution test does exactly what your doing or would do except the computer does the work.
You would need a bidirectional scanner to run that test. I do not possess one or I would send it to you to help get answers.

When that injector was replaced was the tube also replaced? The slightest nick can cause excess fuel return.

 

[spectra3279]

The PCM is completely in control of the charging system. They can run ridiculously high voltages which causes the batteries to outgas and the cable connections start to corrode. Likely the injection system likes that high of voltage.

A Cylinder Contribution test does exactly what your doing or would do except the computer does the work.
You would need a bidirectional scanner to run that test. I do not possess one or I would send it to you to help get answers.

When that injector was replaced was the tube also replaced? The slightest nick can cause excess fuel return.

I don't know if they replaced the tube or not.

I'm using an older otc genesis scanner borrowed from a friend. It's loaded for up to 2009 vehicles. Don't think it's bidirectional as I can only do the disable test. Never has a code set or pending.

Ordered an fca from genos garage. Am I right in thinking this is 2 separate issues or could this be just 1 problem?

 

[OCMerrill]

I don't know if they replaced the tube or not.

I'm using an older otc genesis scanner borrowed from a friend. It's loaded for up to 2009 vehicles. Don't think it's bidirectional as I can only do the disable test. Never has a code set or pending.

Ordered an fca from genos garage. Am I right in thinking this is 2 separate issues or could this be just 1 problem?

Since you have wheels to drive put in the FCA and then you can rule out rail pressure issues.
Will the scanner monitor rail pressure?

 

[spectra3279]

Since you have wheels to drive put in the FCA and then you can rule out rail pressure issues.
Will the scanner monitor rail pressure?

I don't think so. Or if it does I just haven't found it yet

 

[spectra3279]

This is the scanner I have.
Its running the 2.0 system update

 

[Big B Hova]

Hold 12.6 volts with key off, running is about 14.8

My batteries tested fine. But swapping the batteries fixed my randon issues and random CEL

 

[monkeyswrench]

This is the scanner I have.
Its running the 2.0 system update View attachment 1446797

Is this one running the "card", or the "smart box" cable thing? Don't know if it makes much difference, I have one with the cable deal. It's bee awhile, but I thought it had two sets of "engine data", and it was under one and not the other. I think my latest update on it was '12 or '13 though.

 

[spectra3279]

It's got an SD card in the side and uses I guess a mux.

 

[spectra3279]

Well. I think the fca fixed it. Even injector 3 is making a difference when you disable it now. I should know for sure in a couple of days

 

[Colton]

That's a good deal. I'd probably still do injectors and tubes with the miles it has though.

 

[spectra3279]

That's a good deal. I'd probably still do injectors and tubes with the miles it has though.

I plan on it. Just buys me some time to take care of some other stuff first

 

[Dalton]

My batteries tested fine. But swapping the batteries fixed my randon issues and random CEL

need the battery tester that tells you the amps of the battery, in the desert I've seen lots of batteries where the volts were fine but battery only had like 40 amps

 

[monkeyswrench]

Looked at my OTC when I was in the trailer today...think it's the same deal

 

[Racey]

How old are the batteries?

 

[spectra3279]

Looked at my OTC when I was in the trailer today...think it's the same deal

Yep. Mine is running Napa version of software.