DEVEL SIXTEEN Engine Development

[tunnel vision]

Thought I would share.
[video=youtube;vfvCuRMGDwY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vfvCuRMGDwY[/video]

 

[RiverDave]

The amount of machining that went into that is incredible..

 

[tunnel vision]

I knew you'd get a kick out of that part. I wonder what just the machining bill was, not the materials or modeling just the machining. Machining the block had to take a week or more.

 

[jones performance]

im curious as to what the internals look like. 4k hp is quite a bit.

 

[DLow]

Since this is a bote website, I wonder what a pair of those in front of Arnesons in something like a Mystic would do? :eek

 

[wsuwrhr]

The amount of machining that went into that is incredible..

I've done several billet two stroke cylinders and related cases, crank, head and hardware.

A 4 stroke block is certainly possible, but difficult, to put in a water jacket in, but the cylinderhead.....I don't see how it is possible without a multi-piece design.

Brian

 

[mjc]

What is anybody going to do with 3000 hp in a street driven car?

 

[Yarder]

What is anybody going to do with 3000 hp in a street driven car?

Likely kill themselves...

 

[wsuwrhr]

What is anybody going to do with 3000 hp in a street driven car?

Hopefully burn up a lot of tires.

I'd like to let you know.

 

[poncho]

If I had stupid money I would do things like this.:thumbsup

 

[Yellowboat]

only 20 psi boost...



cubic dollars

 

[HitIt]

What is anybody going to do with 3000 hp in a street driven car?

Probably something like this:

Qatari sheikh flees United States after racing his $1.4million Ferrari through Beverly Hills

• Luxury supercars were filmed racing around the residential neighborhood
• Witnesses said vehicles ran stop signs and narrowly missed other cars
• The race only ended when the yellow Ferrari's engine began smoking
• Driver told police arriving shortly afterwards he had diplomatic immunity
• When confronted by a video journalist he allegedly said 'F*** America'
• He then warned 'he could have him killed' and 'flicked a cigarette at him'

 

[Yellowboat]

Probably something like this:

Qatari sheikh flees United States after racing his $1.4million Ferrari through Beverly Hills

• Luxury supercars were filmed racing around the residential neighborhood
• Witnesses said vehicles ran stop signs and narrowly missed other cars
• The race only ended when the yellow Ferrari's engine began smoking
• Driver told police arriving shortly afterwards he had diplomatic immunity
• When confronted by a video journalist he allegedly said 'F*** America'
• He then warned 'he could have him killed' and 'flicked a cigarette at him'

and he should have been arrested and deported on the spot.

 

[RiverDave]

He should have had his ass kicked on the spot.

 

[rivermobster]

Where is Mel Gibson when you need him!

 

[rivermobster]

Thought I would share.
[video=youtube;vfvCuRMGDwY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vfvCuRMGDwY[/video]

Pretty awesome. :thumbsup

 

[Wombat]

Thought I would share.
[video=youtube;vfvCuRMGDwY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vfvCuRMGDwY[/video]

Good stuff, love this kind of engineering.:thumbsup

 

[DLow]

He should have had his ass kicked on the spot.

 

[Sleek-Jet]

Cool video, he was very... specific. But why a 90* block, and not 60*? I always understood that was one of the issues with the Falconer V12.

 

[wsuwrhr]

Cool video, he was very... specific. But why a 90* block, and not 60*? I always understood that was one of the issues with the Falconer V12.

Intake area becomes too narrow?

 

[spectracular]

Okay...pardon my ignorance, but what is the difference in terms of complexity between building this 16 cylendar version versus a 32 cylendar version. I mean, is it much more than copy paste in the cad software and double the amount of materials used (oversimplified on purpose)? What did they do that was so different/out of the box thinking that sets them apart?


I think this is cool and all and still want 2 of them for the boat

 

[wsuwrhr]

Okay...pardon my ignorance, but what is the difference in terms of complexity between building this 16 cylendar version versus a 32 cylendar version. I mean, is it much more than copy paste in the cad software and double the amount of materials used (oversimplified on purpose)? What did they do that was so different/out of the box thinking that sets them apart?


I think this is cool and all and still want 2 of them for the boat

As far as the CAD goes, you are correct. However, for a V config, single row of cyl per bank, you would be talking about a 3-4 in dia main bore main bore that would approach 80 in long. And a crank that would be slightly longer than that.

Brian

 

[pronstar]

Can you imagine the forces acting on a long crankshaft like that? Crazy...

 

[Racey]

Cool video, he was very... specific. But why a 90* block, and not 60*? I always understood that was one of the issues with the Falconer V12.

Because it's a 16 cyl not a 12....

Seriously.

 

[wsuwrhr]

Can you imagine the forces acting on a long crankshaft like that? Crazy...

I don't even see how it would work with a conventional main dia/relative to stroke. When the dia is increased to compensate, then drag comes into play.

Wild, motor is still trick though.

Brian

 

[wsuwrhr]

If I had stupid money I would do things like this.:thumbsup

I would happily machine it, if you couldn't do it yourself.

 

[Racey]

Can you imagine the forces acting on a long crankshaft like that? Crazy...

Or the cam for that matter.... You'd almost want to drive it from both sides... Depending on your spring rates feeding back to the cam you mad have to model some advance into the lobes at the furthest end.


All of these things are neat feats of machining, but there is a reason why V8's are so popular. Firing order bank separation make an easy setup of 90 degrees between TDC's in a 90 Deg block, makes great power and torque all in a shorter less complicated package.

 

[wsuwrhr]

Yep, I left the cam argument out of it. That is why the bigger blanks(55MM?) came into play. Too hard to get an accurate profile with serious spring rates and varying RPM load.

Brian

Or the cam for that matter.... You'd almost want to drive it from both sides... Depending on your spring rates feeding back to the cam you mad have to model some advance into the lobes at the furthest end.


All of these things are neat feats of machining, but there is a reason why V8's are so popular. Firing order bank separation make an easy setup of 90 degrees between TDC's in a 90 Deg block, makes great power and torque all in a shorter less complicated package.

 

[Sleek-Jet]

Because it's a 16 cyl not a 12....

Seriously.

I realy would like to know why, harmonics or different power pulses on the crank?

 

[Racey]

I realy would like to know why, harmonics or different power pulses on the crank?

Odd fire vs even fire. If you are sharing rod journals then your bank separation angle has to be the solution to the amount of degrees of crank rotation to make a complete cycle (720 degrees) by the the number of cylinders in the engine to make it even fire. 720/8=90 V8. 720/10=72 V10. 720/6=120 V6. etc

A viper v-10 for example is a 90 degree block with common journals, it's firing order is 90degree/54degree alternating crank rotation between tdc events for 720 degrees crank rotation. If they made the motor with a 72 degree bank separation it would be even fire 72 degrees between firing events.

In a 90 degree v8, 8 firing events, 90 degrees between each one, 90*8 = 720.
In a 90 degree V10 like an ilmore viper it's (90*5)+(54*5) = 720 (5 cylinders fire 90 degrees separated, the other 5 fire 54 degrees separated)

4.3L chevy v6's are a good example of a split journal crank, google a picture and you will see. They are even fire V-6 in a 90 degree bank config by splitting the journal. Split journal 90 degree v-6s fire even, every 120 degrees. 120*6=720 However the split journal makes a really weak spot in the crank. Badass built 90 degree v6's are odd fire because they use a common journal crank. They fire 90/150 alternating degrees.

In a 90 degree v6 (90*3)+(150*3)=720

You also then get into issues with primary and secondary engine balancing, which is an entire discipline in calculus. Balancing shafts etc to fix balancing issues of the engine, having a power of 2 even fire negates many of these issues, 2, 4, 8, 16 cylinder engines for example.


Multiple edits to try and make the explanation easy to understand.

 

[River Runnin]

Don't know about all that technical stuff..:smackhead..Only that I got me a little chubby when that engine was run up, and have'n visions of that thing in me river jet! Yee! F'n Haa!

 

[shan]

The torsional deflection magnitude on the crank and the cam must be huge given the lengths and the number of inputs. It's an interesting science project.

 

[Dettom]

A rich guy could put just one of those in a 34' DCB and have a beast of a boat.

 

[spectracular]

A rich guy could put just one of those in a 34' DCB and have a beast of a boat.

Agreed but just from a weight, moving piece count, reliability point...they'd be hard pressed not to consider a turbine.

 

[wsuwrhr]

A rich guy could put just one of those in a 34' DCB and have a beast of a boat.

So you up for a pair DT?

 

[plaster dave]

That is badass!! I wonder what kind of HP it would make on Carson's dyno?? [emoji3]

 

[pronstar]

You also then get into issues with primary and secondary engine balancing, which is an entire discipline in calculus. Balancing shafts etc to fix balancing issues of the engine, having a power of 2 even fire negates many of these issues, 2, 4, 8, 16 cylinder engines for example.

In these instances, starting with a design with perfectly balanced design is massively helpful :thumbsup
Perfectly balanced designs include:
Inline-6
Boxer/opposed/flat 6
60-degree V12

Any other engine design, to your point, will have forces and moments that have to be dealt with, often adding complexity and robbing power.

 

[wsuwrhr]

In these instances, starting with a design with perfectly balanced design is massively helpful :thumbsup
Perfectly balanced designs include:
Inline-6
Boxer/opposed/flat 6
60-degree V12

Any other engine design, to your point, will have forces and moments that have to be dealt with, often adding complexity and robbing power.

Ah now you have my attention. I didn't even mention Subie 6cyls. I didn't want to start obsessing over them again.

Brian

 

[rivermobster]

Lots of R&R went into that engine. I was told there is a video of the block being machined, and it spent five DAYS in the CNC.

The piece of aluminum that it was made for cost 15k.

I would guess that engine must have sold for a cool mil.

 

[ParkerTime]

The Camel Jockey, traded in the camel for the $2+ million dollar car that motor goes in- BAD ASS!


[video=youtube_https;gmK09MJNQA0]https://youtu.be/gmK09MJNQA0[/video]

 

[pronstar]

Here's a good article with the engine builder:
http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...rris-develops-all-new-quad-turbo-v-16-engine/

I'm not sure if its this article (I didn't see it in there), but I recall reading an interview with Steve Morris and, while he made the prototype, he has zero inclination to produce the production engine.

 

[tunnel vision]

Lots of R&R went into that engine. I was told there is a video of the block being machined, and it spent five DAYS in the CNC.

The piece of aluminum that it was made for cost 15k.

I would guess that engine must have sold for a cool mil.

I guessed a week, probably 400# of chip too!

 

[rivermobster]

Here's a good article with the engine builder:
http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...rris-develops-all-new-quad-turbo-v-16-engine/

I'm not sure if its this article (I didn't see it in there), but I recall reading an interview with Steve Morris and, while he made the prototype, he has zero inclination to produce the production engine.

That answers a lot of questions. Nice article. Thanks. [emoji106]

 

[wsuwrhr]

I guessed a week, probably 400# of chip too!

Haha, try around 2000# sir.

 

[mash on it]

In these instances, starting with a design with perfectly balanced design is massively helpful :thumbsup
Perfectly balanced designs include:
Inline-6
Boxer/opposed/flat 6
60-degree V12

Any other engine design, to your point, will have forces and moments that have to be dealt with, often adding complexity and robbing power.

So the street tune was 3500hp @ 6900 rpm? How useful is this in a car?

Allison aircraft V-1710 3000 hp @ 3000 rpm...full roller...supercharged...4 valves per cylinder...V-12 60* engine...built /designed in 1929- 87 years ago.

Makes the Devel 16 a little less impressive, especially with the technology involved, basically 2) 6.2L LS motors freight trained.

I don't think the D-16 would last @ 3500 hp continuously, for very long. (like in a boat?)

Dan'l

 

[wsuwrhr]

Always got to be at least one buzzkill in the crowd.

So the street tune was 3500hp @ 6900 rpm? How useful is this in a car?

Allison aircraft V-1710 3000 hp @ 3000 rpm...full roller...supercharged...4 valves per cylinder...V-12 60* engine...built /designed in 1929- 87 years ago.

Makes the Devel 16 a little less impressive, especially with the technology involved, basically 2) 6.2L LS motors freight trained.

I don't think the D-16 would last @ 3500 hp continuously, for very long. (like in a boat?)

Dan'l

 

[pronstar]

So the street tune was 3500hp @ 6900 rpm? How useful is this in a car?

Allison aircraft V-1710 3000 hp @ 3000 rpm...full roller...supercharged...4 valves per cylinder...V-12 60* engine...built /designed in 1929- 87 years ago.

Makes the Devel 16 a little less impressive, especially with the technology involved, basically 2) 6.2L LS motors freight trained.

I don't think the D-16 would last @ 3500 hp continuously, for very long. (like in a boat?)

Dan'l

It's hardly two LS's stuck together...here's another good article with the engine builder:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...-5000-hp-quad-turbo-v16-steve-morris-engines/

The Allison is a 28-liter engine that weighs 1400 lbs..the Devel is a 12.3L engine that likely weighs half that.
So this is a pretty tough comparison to equalize...no supercar (or performance boat) is going to want that much weight tied-up in an engine.

 

[Racey]

It's hardly two LS's stuck together...here's another good article with the engine builder:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...-5000-hp-quad-turbo-v16-steve-morris-engines/

The Allison is a 28-liter engine that weighs 1400 lbs..the Devel is a 12.3L engine that likely weighs half that.
So this is a pretty tough comparison to equalize...no supercar (or performance boat) is going to want that much weight tied-up in an engine.

Yeah i was gonna say, the allison motors were massive, in both displacement, and weight. Not really a great comparison to make there

And you are correct on perfect engine balance configs, I6, F6, 60deg V-12.

 

[rivermobster]

It's hardly two LS's stuck together...here's another good article with the engine builder:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...-5000-hp-quad-turbo-v16-steve-morris-engines/

The Allison is a 28-liter engine that weighs 1400 lbs..the Devel is a 12.3L engine that likely weighs half that.
So this is a pretty tough comparison to equalize...no supercar (or performance boat) is going to want that much weight tied-up in an engine.

:thumbsup:thumbsup

 

[RiverDave]

I couldn't be the only one that thinks that car looks terrible.. Looks like some cheap kit car?

RD