Debate time

[500bbc]

Republicans consistently garner a large chunk of their votes from poor, white, uneducated voters. Why? What causes poor uneducated white people to vote Republican?
Republicans so often vilify and shame the poor that no one wants to self-identify as being poor or middle class. They fool themselves by voting against their own interests and pretend they are members of this ?elite GOP club? when the reality is they are just the hired help looking in.
The Republicans advocate cutting food stamps, unemployment, education, and health care ? all while cutting taxes for the wealthy. The GOP has a long history of demonizing poor people. The relatively new Tea Party crowd and the Libertarians have the reigning attitude of ?go fend for yourself? when it comes to providing any type of assistance to the poor.

Lower and middle class whites desperately need things like strong unions that protect their rights as workers, they need affordable health care, they need fairer tax laws that don?t punish them and reward the rich even more than now, they need higher minimum wage hike, they need help to send their kids to college without graduating with a debt bigger than most home mortgages, they need their kids to have an opportunity to attend schools that offer opportunity to achieve the American dream and not our current school-to-prison pipeline model. They need a government that won?t send their kids to fight in wars we shouldn?t be in or waste trillions in the sands of the Middle East and have nothing to show for it. They need a party that recognizes the highest income disparity since 1928 is a big problem. They need a party who cares more about Main street than Wall Street but they still keep voting Republican? WHY????

Poor whites have a desire to feel superior to something or somebody ? blacks and now Hispanics fill that need.
This political strategy is unfortunate. It has created a huge divide in our country.
Tens of millions of Americans actually believe in the false premise that if you give more to the rich it will eventually help the rest of us. The top 2% have become wealthier for sure, but where do people think their new wealth comes from? Hint: Look in a mirror. If it hasn?t trickled down by now, chances are you might want to revise your thinking that it ever will.
In 1952, a time many Republicans recall fondly as the good ol? days, corporate income tax accounted for about 33% of federal tax revenue. Today even with record breaking profits it accounts for 9% and they still are asking for lower rates. Payroll taxes have skyrocketed just as corporate taxes have fallen.
Many older white people are holed up in exburb enclaves listening to the likes of Limbaugh, Fox News, Glen Beck, and dozens of others who rant and rave that America has been stolen and we need to ?take our country back? whatever that means.

These right wing radio and TV shows do a good job of frightening older white voters and feeding them a lot of misinformation and false propaganda and outright lies. They also tell them that all traditional media are liars and refer to them as the ?Lame stream media? which makes them distrust any information that conflicts with their preconceived views. They live in a bubble and recoil at any hint their beliefs are based on outright lies and misinformation.
Republicans might claim they are for smaller budgets and for a small government but the reality is quite the opposite. If a president from your party hasn?t balanced the budget since the 1950′s, how can you claim to be the party for ?fiscal responsibility?? Keep in mind the last 2 two-term Republican presidents (Reagan/George W. Bush) left office with our national debt much higher than what it was when they took office.

Fucking racist 'tard.

How many dead in Chi Town last weekend you racist bastard?

Name one

 

[2CHILL]

I live in LA. I'm supposed to know the names of the shooting victims in Chicago, because?

 

[500bbc]

I live in LA. I'm supposed to know the names of the shooting victims in Chicago, because?

Because if a white cop killed a black criminal you'd be marching in the streets and posting more racist bullshit along with your black lives matter retard buddy's.


All the Best!:finger

 

[2CHILL]

Ok. I've actually done none of the above, but thanks for clearing that up for me...

 

[rivrrts429]

Republicans consistently garner a large chunk of their votes from poor, white, uneducated voters. Why? What causes poor uneducated white people to vote Republican?
Republicans so often vilify and shame the poor that no one wants to self-identify as being poor or middle class. They fool themselves by voting against their own interests and pretend they are members of this ?elite GOP club? when the reality is they are just the hired help looking in.
The Republicans advocate cutting food stamps, unemployment, education, and health care ? all while cutting taxes for the wealthy. The GOP has a long history of demonizing poor people. The relatively new Tea Party crowd and the Libertarians have the reigning attitude of ?go fend for yourself? when it comes to providing any type of assistance to the poor.

Lower and middle class whites desperately need things like strong unions that protect their rights as workers, they need affordable health care, they need fairer tax laws that don?t punish them and reward the rich even more than now, they need higher minimum wage hike, they need help to send their kids to college without graduating with a debt bigger than most home mortgages, they need their kids to have an opportunity to attend schools that offer opportunity to achieve the American dream and not our current school-to-prison pipeline model. They need a government that won?t send their kids to fight in wars we shouldn?t be in or waste trillions in the sands of the Middle East and have nothing to show for it. They need a party that recognizes the highest income disparity since 1928 is a big problem. They need a party who cares more about Main street than Wall Street but they still keep voting Republican? WHY????

Poor whites have a desire to feel superior to something or somebody ? blacks and now Hispanics fill that need.
This political strategy is unfortunate. It has created a huge divide in our country.
Tens of millions of Americans actually believe in the false premise that if you give more to the rich it will eventually help the rest of us. The top 2% have become wealthier for sure, but where do people think their new wealth comes from? Hint: Look in a mirror. If it hasn?t trickled down by now, chances are you might want to revise your thinking that it ever will.
In 1952, a time many Republicans recall fondly as the good ol? days, corporate income tax accounted for about 33% of federal tax revenue. Today even with record breaking profits it accounts for 9% and they still are asking for lower rates. Payroll taxes have skyrocketed just as corporate taxes have fallen.
Many older white people are holed up in exburb enclaves listening to the likes of Limbaugh, Fox News, Glen Beck, and dozens of others who rant and rave that America has been stolen and we need to ?take our country back? whatever that means.

These right wing radio and TV shows do a good job of frightening older white voters and feeding them a lot of misinformation and false propaganda and outright lies. They also tell them that all traditional media are liars and refer to them as the ?Lame stream media? which makes them distrust any information that conflicts with their preconceived views. They live in a bubble and recoil at any hint their beliefs are based on outright lies and misinformation.
Republicans might claim they are for smaller budgets and for a small government but the reality is quite the opposite. If a president from your party hasn?t balanced the budget since the 1950′s, how can you claim to be the party for ?fiscal responsibility?? Keep in mind the last 2 two-term Republican presidents (Reagan/George W. Bush) left office with our national debt much higher than what it was when they took office.

Why not link to the author when you're going to cut/paste? Seems it would be the right thing to do to give credit to who wrote it.

http://www.liberalamerica.org/2015/05/18/what-poor-vote-republican/

 

[500bbc]

Ok. I've actually done none of the above, but thanks for clearing that up for me...

Oh Shit!!

I'm sorry, some fucktard was posting under your name a few weeks ago whining about some white racist cop gunning down an "innocent" black man.


Please accept my humble apologies.

You need to find that asshole and beat his punk ass!

 

[2CHILL]

Did he march in the streets as well?

 

[500bbc]

Did he march in the streets as well?

Figuratively, he sure supports the fucktards that do.

Good luck finding him!:thumbsup

 

[AZMIDLYF]

This is someone you want to represent America??
[video=youtube_https;3MdIri5ji68]https://youtu.be/3MdIri5ji68[/video]

I was waiting for him to stick his thumbs in his ears and stick his tongue out.

 

[BHC Vic]

Was a shit show. I almost stopped watching at that point. That little clip is y I called him a bully

 

[wsuwrhr]

This is someone you want to represent America??

I'd say, still better than what we have now.

 

[AZMIDLYF]

That is very comforting. :yikes

 

[wsuwrhr]

That is very comforting. :yikes

You didn't call me a liar.

 

[AZMIDLYF]

Why would I do that? You are entitled to your opinion.

 

[jet496]

This is someone you want to represent America??
[video=youtube_https;3MdIri5ji68]https://youtu.be/3MdIri5ji68[/video]

I was waiting for him to stick his thumbs in his ears and stick his tongue out.

Okay, that's some funny ass shit :lmao Jeb does looks like one of those kids picked on in school. I couldn't watch any of it though & went out to dinner instead. Definitely a shit show & a bunch of characters.

 

[530RL]

I don't disagree with this on the surface but you are forgetting two very important aspects of the equation.

First I see no mention of WAR in the above numbers. War profiteering since WW2 has devastated the financial situation in this country.

Second in the 1950's GM was the largest employer in this country with wages that would be decent by any modern standard. Today it's Wallmart with minimum wage as the base, a corporate strategy that maximizes tax payer funded employee benefits, and a purchasing manifesto predicated on driving production to the cheapest locale possible.

So as a balance to your points what percentage of the GDP in the 50's were company profits vs now?

Those are fair points.

I do not know the answer to your question but I will look up Ford's pre-tax income as a percentage of revenue in 1950 versus today. Your exact question becomes a difficult calculation and comparison as a percentage of GDP as most non-pubic companies are now pass through entities such that "personal income" now include private company profits, something that was not available in 1950. Hence the shift from corporate tax receipts to personal tax receipts. Further, due to public company regulation promoted by the government, the ratio of public to private companies continues to move towards private compared to public companies.

But the question remains as you have posted about your trips to Asia relating to operations there. Why is it that companies are incented to move offshore? Because of more government intervention, relative taxes and regulation or because of less? I can only answer for myself as a former public company Chariman and Director of several public companies. And you know my answer, and I suspect you know the answer for the company you work for.

 

[squeezer]

Those are fair points.

I do not know the answer to your question but I will look up Ford's pre-tax income as a percentage of revenue in 1950 versus today. Your exact question becomes a difficult calculation and comparison as a percentage of GDP as most non-pubic companies are now pass through entities such that "personal income" now include private company profits, something that was not available in 1950. Hence the shift from corporate tax receipts to personal tax receipts. Further, due to public company regulation promoted by the government, the ratio of public to private companies continues to move towards private compared to public companies.

But the question remains as you have posted about your trips to Asia relating to operations there. Why is it that companies are incented to move offshore? Because of more government intervention, relative taxes and regulation or because of less? I can only answer for myself as a former public company Chariman and Director of several public companies. And you know my answer, and I suspect you know the answer for the company you work for.

Direct labor costs for our customers is the only reason we are in the countries we are in. (We are highly automated and could be profitable anywhere. In fact our two best performing locations are in Germany and Korea... Germany has a regulatory base that makes the U.S. look crude)

 

[500bbc]

The election of bobo has lowered the bar to be President of this once great country forever.

He's proved that anyone can be placed into that office and the sheep will following along bleating happily to their own slaughter.

Good job 'Tards, you put Trump where he is now.:finger

 

[thetub]

squeezer;2226382]Direct labor costs for our customers is the only reason we are in the countries we are in. (We are highly automated and could be profitable anywhere.

SQUEEEEEEEEZE ^^^^^^^^^


Squeeze this sentence doesn't make any sense . Highly automated and direct labor costs? What labor is there if you'''r companies are highly automated?


Those were different times back then in the 50s less competition globally , probably less publicly traded companies back then who tried keeping things here in the US and we were going through a manufacturing boom back then "industrial revolution" Kinda what China just finished going through.

Its the Global Economy thats either gonna make things cheaper for the consumer, but by doing so bringing down the standard of living of the laborer producing that item.

 

[squeezer]

squeezer;2226382]Direct labor costs for our customers is the only reason we are in the countries we are in. (We are highly automated and could be profitable anywhere.


SQUEEEEEEEEZE ^^^^^^^^^


Squeeze this sentence doesn't make any sense . Highly automated and direct labor costs? What labor is there if you'''r companies are highly automated?


Those were different times back then less competition globally , probably less publicly traded companies back then who tried keeping things here in the US and we were going through a manufacturing boom back then "industrial revolution" Kinda what China just finished going through.

Its the Global Economy thats either gonna make things cheaper for the consumer, but by doing so bringing down the standard of living of the laborer producing that item.

Figured this would confuse a few even as I typed it.

We locate our production (as a 2nd tier supplier) close to the primary manufacturing base. The primary manufacturers rely on cheap labor we do not.

 

[Racey]

Direct labor costs for our customers is the only reason we are in the countries we are in. (We are highly automated and could be profitable anywhere. In fact our two best performing locations are in Germany and Korea... Germany has a regulatory base that makes the U.S. look crude)

Not true, cost of capital investments (buildings, machinery, etc) are less, property taxes, insurance, regulatory fees are less. Taxes on inventory sitting on shelves (tangible property tax) etc, shipping in regards to locales of inputs especially plastics and metals as the US has regulated dozens of mills and foundries out of the country.....

Labor costs are only a portion of a larger picture. Depending on the business labor costs can actually be the smallest part of the pie especially if you are talking about production manufacturing that is highly automated.

 

[squeezer]

Not true, cost of capital investments (buildings, machinery, etc) are less, property taxes, insurance, regulatory fees are less. Taxes on inventory sitting on shelves (tangible property tax) etc, shipping in regards to locales of inputs especially plastics and metals as the US has regulated dozens of mills and foundries out of the country.....

Labor costs are only a portion of a larger picture. Depending on the business labor costs can actually be the smallest part of the pie especially if you are talking about production manufacturing that is highly automated.

OK Racey go ahead and tell me more about our factories...

You are correct on the surface, cheaper labor/taxes/fees yada yada yada... But what you miss are the secondary effects. The cost of an expat machine shop manager is 10X the cost of a local guy and 2-3X more than the same guy made back in Germany. Land and published tax rates are cheaper but not the local fee's administered by whatever agency inspector happens to need a new car. (Dust on the fire extinguisher... that will bee Ten million 'Dong). Language barriers are massively expensive in direct time costs and fuck-up costs. Sure shipping and electricity start out cheaper but factor in needing a back-up generator that is full factory capable and shipping that gets the stuff where it needs to be "most" of the time and lets call it a draw. (And thats being generous to the "cheap" markets).

Yes there are benefits of being offshore but those benefits are getting smaller every year.

 

[Racey]

OK Racey go ahead and tell me more about our factories...

You are correct on the surface, cheaper labor/taxes/fees yada yada yada... But what you miss are the secondary effects. The cost of an expat machine shop manager is 10X the cost of a local guy and 2-3X more than the same guy made back in Germany. Land and published tax rates are cheaper but not the local fee's administered by whatever agency inspector happens to need a new car. (Dust on the fire extinguisher... that will bee Ten million 'Dong). Language barriers are massively expensive in direct time costs and fuck-up costs. Sure shipping and electricity start out cheaper but factor in needing a back-up generator that is full factory capable and shipping that gets the stuff where it needs to be "most" of the time and lets call it a draw. (And thats being generous to the "cheap" markets).

Yes there are benefits of being offshore but those benefits are getting smaller every year.

If we were gonna call it a 'draw' we wouldn't be sending the shear amount of business overseas that we are now.... the scale is way beyond a draw for many industries.

I know a couple guys personally that build consumer products in composite and plastics, they sent their entire operations to china because of what CA wanted to do business here cost wise. They don't have expats running the shops over there, they are just job shops in these cases, they will build whatever you want within their scope of expertise, when their job run is done they move on to something else.... This is even a bigger business the machining and electronics world.

I'm not doubting that IF you are going to have an ex-pat move to a 2nd or 3rd world country they are going to want some big compensation, but they are not the majority, MFG has been going on for long enough that a 2nd and 3rd generation of locals are now able to do the more technical jobs that in decades past would have required a westerner to manage.

As you state, This is also leading to their rise in labor costs as their skill and productivity goes up, and their countries modernize and the consumer demand base grows, and consumers in those countries start interacting with the outside world economy, this is no secret.

If you want to look at it through the liberal rose color glasses, the jobs and incomes lost in this country have helped 100:1 to bring others out of far worse poverty in another land. So in essence these businesses have done the world one of the greatest social welfare gestures of all time, helping tens, hundreds of millions rise out of poverty. It's all part of the shared sacrifice to help the less fortunate.... :rolleyes

 

[squeezer]

If we were gonna call it a 'draw' we wouldn't be sending the shear amount of business overseas that we are now.... the scale is way beyond a draw for many industries.

I know a couple guys personally that build consumer products in composite and plastics, they sent their entire operations to china because of what CA wanted to do business here cost wise. They don't have expats running the shops over there, they are just job shops in these cases, they will build whatever you want within their scope of expertise, when their job run is done they move on to something else.... This is even a bigger business the machining and electronics world.

I'm not doubting that IF you are going to have an ex-pat move to a 2nd or 3rd world country they are going to want some big compensation, but they are not the majority, MFG has been going on for long enough that a 2nd and 3rd generation of locals are now able to do the more technical jobs that in decades past would have required a westerner to manage.

As you state, This is also leading to their rise in labor costs as their skill and productivity goes up, and their countries modernize and the consumer demand base grows, and consumers in those countries start interacting with the outside world economy, this is no secret.

If you want to look at it through the liberal rose color glasses, the jobs and incomes lost in this country have helped 100:1 to bring others out of far worse poverty in another land. So in essence these businesses have done the world one of the greatest social welfare gestures of all time, helping tens, hundreds of millions rise out of poverty. It's all part of the shared sacrifice to help the less fortunate.... :rolleyes

I am not looking at this through a Liberal or Conservative lens... Just from decades of doing business overseas.

And the "Draw" it talk about is for my specific market area which is easily automated. The market will chase cheap labor regardless.

 

[was thatguy]

If we were gonna call it a 'draw' we wouldn't be sending the shear amount of business overseas that we are now.... the scale is way beyond a draw for many industries.

I know a couple guys personally that build consumer products in composite and plastics, they sent their entire operations to china because of what CA wanted to do business here cost wise. They don't have expats running the shops over there, they are just job shops in these cases, they will build whatever you want within their scope of expertise, when their job run is done they move on to something else.... This is even a bigger business the machining and electronics world.

I'm not doubting that IF you are going to have an ex-pat move to a 2nd or 3rd world country they are going to want some big compensation, but they are not the majority, MFG has been going on for long enough that a 2nd and 3rd generation of locals are now able to do the more technical jobs that in decades past would have required a westerner to manage.

As you state, This is also leading to their rise in labor costs as their skill and productivity goes up, and their countries modernize and the consumer demand base grows, and consumers in those countries start interacting with the outside world economy, this is no secret.

If you want to look at it through the liberal rose color glasses, the jobs and incomes lost in this country have helped 100:1 to bring others out of far worse poverty in another land. So in essence these businesses have done the world one of the greatest social welfare gestures of all time, helping tens, hundreds of millions rise out of poverty. It's all part of the shared sacrifice to help the less fortunate.... :rolleyes

It's "sheer"...just sayin.

 

[530RL]

OK Racey go ahead and tell me more about our factories...

You are correct on the surface, cheaper labor/taxes/fees yada yada yada... But what you miss are the secondary effects. The cost of an expat machine shop manager is 10X the cost of a local guy and 2-3X more than the same guy made back in Germany. Land and published tax rates are cheaper but not the local fee's administered by whatever agency inspector happens to need a new car. (Dust on the fire extinguisher... that will bee Ten million 'Dong). Language barriers are massively expensive in direct time costs and fuck-up costs. Sure shipping and electricity start out cheaper but factor in needing a back-up generator that is full factory capable and shipping that gets the stuff where it needs to be "most" of the time and lets call it a draw. (And thats being generous to the "cheap" markets).

Yes there are benefits of being offshore but those benefits are getting smaller every year.

We mainly manufactured in China, however, one thing that is missing here is that in many countries, to include many EU countries and Russia and Brazil and the list goes on, if you want to sell in those markets you have to manufacture in those markets or pay a fairly high tariff. So we could sell in the US out of our plant in China that we owned/leased but if we were to sell in Germany for example, we would have to use the Flextronics plant in Germany or the tariffs would exceed the cost savings.

The point being is that the free trade issue is a very complex issue and where Racey and I will sometimes disagree is that if we allow free trade to the US, in other words no tariffs or other additional taxes or costs, but other countries do not, that may be "free trade" but it is not fair trade. Further the trade treaties and other agreements signed between the US and many countries or geographical markets, let alone the international trade courts set up by such treaties, make Obamacare seem like a readable and workable piece of legislation.

So the concept of "free trade" is correct in a vacuum but under the laws and work rules of the 196 countries in the world, there really is no such thing as either free or fair trade as the issue and the problem is the biggest gordian knot ever.

 

[Racey]

We mainly manufactured in China, however, one thing that is missing here is that in many countries, to include many EU countries and Russia and Brazil and the list goes on, if you want to sell in those markets you have to manufacture in those markets or pay a fairly high tariff. So we could sell in the US out of our plant in China that we owned/leased but if we were to sell in Germany for example, we would have to use the Flextronics plant in Germany or the tariffs would exceed the cost savings.

The point being is that the free trade issue is a very complex issue and where Racey and I will sometimes disagree is that if we allow free trade to the US, in other words no tariffs or other additional taxes or costs, but other countries do not, that may be "free trade" but it is not fair trade. Further the trade treaties and other agreements signed between the US and many countries or geographical markets, let alone the international trade courts set up by such treaties, make Obamacare seem like a readable and workable piece of legislation.

So the concept of "free trade" is correct in a vacuum but under the laws and work rules of the 196 countries in the world, there really is no such thing as either free or fair trade as the issue and the problem is the biggest gordian knot ever.

You are correct, i wouldn't disagree with this, unfortunately because of all the other protectionist (isolationist ) trade rules in the world we are forced to play at the lowest common denominator.... Free trade does not exist, nor a free market, yet it is constantly blamed by the left for a multitude of problems. What i advocate for is the entire world should be moving away from these protectivist rules and towards freer and more open markets, not protection rackets. If we want the most efficient use of capital we should put it where it does the most good, instead we have manipulated and complex import and export rules to deal with that skew the market in very complex ways, these are also used by governments as bargaining chips, or chess pieces, the manipulate completely unrelated industries.

There was a very good investigation that aired on NPR a few years ago about the US manipulating the cotton trade against south america, in violation of a trade agreement we had in place with them, to prop up the US cotton industry, I believe it was Brazil that took the US to international court and i think they won but couldn't collect as the ruling didn't have teeth, they in turn threatened to place 100% import tax on American Automobiles, this in turn made the US auto industry put pressure on the US government to come to an agreement over the cotton price fixing.... I posted a thread on it here way back when it happened. I'm paraphrasing here, but if i remember correctly it went down something like that.

The system is a nightmare, could you imagine if we had to deal with these type of rules in state to state commerce here in the US? Nothing would ever get done, as the world grows smaller and closer with technology we will continue to see the negative effects of these protectionist policies in the mis-allocation of capital to industries to prop them up, in certain geographic areas, that just would not be competitive without the government's intervention. AKA corporate welfare.

Gordian knot is a perfect analogy....

 

[allblowdup]

Unfortunately we can't have open trade because US and Canada will get it's ass kicked. We cannot manufacture anything that is cheaper and better than China,Japan, korea,,vietam,etc. We are fat cats that demand to much $ for our time and we have way to many regulations that stop us from being competitive on the world market.

 

[Racey]

Unfortunately we can't have open trade because US and Canada will get it's ass kicked. We cannot manufacture anything that is cheaper and better than China,Japan, korea,,vietam,etc. We are fat cats that demand to much $ for our time and we have way to many regulations that stop us from being competitive on the world market.

Which is exactly what we should be trying to fix, instead we band-aid the problem with tarrifs and trade restrictions. Typical government in action, never treat the disease, treat the symptoms. Oh you have a cold? you just need more tissues