Concrete Shrinkage

[Joker]

Current project the engineer says these are shrinkage cracks first level underground. I’m a bit concerned the deck is going to fail. Complex is just 2 years old and they continue to grow.

 

[Done-it-again]

Set up a go pro, that would be some crazy video...

 

[NicPaus]

Did they test each load? Deputy on sight testing slump before pour?

That doesn't look Like a shrinkage Crack to Me.

 

[Joker]

Did they test each load? Deputy on sight testing slump before pour?

That doesn't look Like a shrinkage Crack to Me.

It’s a PT deck with cables running on a curve which I’ve never seen. I’m not sure how they expected to get tension. The crack are starting to run up the columns as well. There’s no way these are shrinkage but they won’t get a second opinion. Everything was inspected and they’ve got a 4 story apartment building above it.

 

[JL95]

 

[monkeyswrench]

It’s a PT deck with cables running on a curve which I’ve never seen. I’m not sure how they expected to get tension. The crack are starting to run up the columns as well. There’s no way these are shrinkage but they won’t get a second opinion. Everything was inspected and they’ve got a 4 story apartment building above it.

How'd they do the PT with curves? I don't do concrete, but picturing pulling or tubes...which doesn't sound right.

 

[Joker]

How'd they do the PT with curves? I don't do concrete, but picturing pulling or tubes...which doesn't sound right.

You’ll see the crack sizes noted as 1/8” originally. Now they’re up to 1/2”

 

[monkeyswrench]

View attachment 1423578

You’ll see the crack sizes noted as 1/8” originally. Now they’re up to 1/2”

I'm no engineer, but see a definite trend in the crack locations. Someone done F'd up, and I don't think it was the rod benders or the concrete guys.

 

[ConcreteDr]

how many levels?
is this top deck ?
is crack wider on bottom? Or top ?
looks like differential settelment could be considered
pt will hold it all together. Until it doesn’t

if this was in Florida auto red tag that place is super fucked!

 

[gqchris]

Downtown LBC also, Joker?

I was glad to leave that swamp garage at Shoreline Gateway. LOL

 

[OCMerrill]

Two years old, their property manager should contact the builder. I see this in 40-50 year old stacked condos but this is a modern build.

Let the builder get his engineer involved.

 

[rrrr]

View attachment 1423578

You’ll see the crack sizes noted as 1/8” originally. Now they’re up to 1/2”

It's obvious the offset in the PT cables was improperly engineered.

 

[paradise]

It's obvious the offset in the PT cables was improperly engineered.

Sure seems like that would create a shearing force pulling at that angle

 

[Rajobigguy]

This is in Long Beach, right John?
I would be highly suspicious of footing creep.

 

[monkeyswrench]

Two years old, their property manager should contact the builder. I see this in 40-50 year old stacked condos but this is a modern build.

Let the builder get his engineer involved.

I have a feeling it's going to quickly go from engineer, to lawyer.

 

[c_land]

Two years old, their property manager should contact the builder. I see this in 40-50 year old stacked condos but this is a modern build.

Let the builder get his engineer involved.

The engineer:

 

[C-Ya]

I have a feeling it's going to quickly go from engineer, to lawyer.

That is definitely a construction defect claim.

 

[wzuber]

I have a feeling it's going to quickly go from engineer, to lawyer.

That will be the least of their problems when it's completely failed and there is loss of life.

 

[wzuber]

That is definitely a construction defect claim.

Do you know any good lawyers? Asking for the bldg. Contractor of course......

 

[Joker]

how many levels?
is this top deck ?
is crack wider on bottom? Or top ?
looks like differential settelment could be considered
pt will hold it all together. Until it doesn’t

if this was in Florida auto red tag that place is super fucked!

2 levels subterranean. This is the deck separating the two. Cracks are just as wide up top but the spalling is more evident underneath as the concrete is falling on cars parked below the cracks. Cracks transferring from the deck and splitting columns is also concerning.

 

[Joker]

 

[rivrrts429]

That’s a major issue and I can’t ever recall seeing PT ran like that. Somebody needs to get a qualified engineer to inspect as a second opinion.

 

[white tortilla]

I have run PT like that. Sometimes opposing offsets or parallel offsets. It’s interesting looking at cable layouts sometimes trying to understand the intention. Either way not good, it is interesting to see the cracks and location of PT offset seem to be related.

 

[69hondo]

The fact that its starting to pull away from the column. There should be good amount of head steel there but wow. Thats crazy.
Send those pics to city engineers email with the address.
This will be on the news if nothing is done soon.

 

[Bobby V]

Hopefully @Nordie will chime in. He is a iron worker who does this type of construction.

 

[bonesfab]

HOA fees going to the moon in the Long Beach. That's pretty scary honestly.

 

[HNL2LHC]

Anyone else think of this when lookIng at the images? I hope that it is not this bad and if so I hope no one is hurt…..

 

[Nordie]

It’s a PT deck with cables running on a curve which I’ve never seen. I’m not sure how they expected to get tension. The crack are starting to run up the columns as well. There’s no way these are shrinkage but they won’t get a second opinion. Everything was inspected and they’ve got a 4 story apartment building above it.

How'd they do the PT with curves? I don't do concrete, but picturing pulling or tubes...which doesn't sound right.

You can do PT with curves easily, that has quite the jog in it though. I'd imagine that there was a ton of bursting steel installed to aid with the curves.

I'll take a 2nd look at the pictures, but those cracks are absolutely fucked. There's definitely something wrong here.

Edit, looking at the deck plans, I was thinking that there is a separation, but with the banded cables running perpendicular to the cracks and on the bend. It's definitely a lateral crack. It's not shrinkage at all. The bend on the PT is probably not as drastic as it appears on the drawings, but with a lateral movement I'd imagine that's why you would see the spalling that you're seeing.

If they're calling you in for a fix, I'd steer clear of this one

 

[Your ad here]

It looks like the crack is shearing. Was the deck supposed to be a multi sequence pour and the angled cables needed to be tensioned separate from the straight runs?

 

[4Waters]

Anyone else think of this when lookIng at the images? I hope that it is not this bad and if so I hope no one is hurt…..

Yup

 

[OCMerrill]

The engineer:

View attachment 1423608

Most excellent!!

Total side bar....

Two weekends back we went over to Two Harbors. It's about 11:00 am and the place is full of radio chatter with people begging for a mooring.
Obnoxious and inpatient, blow boaters mostly. They are a breed I struggle with.

I announce our boat name, length, asked once for a mooring, and waited. She said power cat I've got ya, I copied and done. See did not forget.
She pulls the harbor boat up and its a gall who has been there a while. She says I'm giving you A9 (awesome can for sure)
and then..."You said 35' power but the last time you were here it was 34'." She grins.

I said "all guys round up, I'm having a good day." She laughed, my crew laughed, and I paid the bill.

 

[OCMerrill]

This is in Long Beach, right John?
I would be highly suspicious of footing creep.

Rossmoor - an HOA there gets seawater in their elevator pits. They don't have visible failure of the structure but dam that unnerving to say the least.
This HOA is 7 miles inland from the ocean.

Built in 1972. I resist working there.

 

[Joker]

You can do PT with curves easily, that has quite the jog in it though. I'd imagine that there was a ton of bursting steel installed to aid with the curves.

I'll take a 2nd look at the pictures, but those cracks are absolutely fucked. There's definitely something wrong here.

Edit, looking at the deck plans, I was thinking that there is a separation, but with the banded cables running perpendicular to the cracks and on the bend. It's definitely a lateral crack. It's not shrinkage at all. The bend on the PT is probably not as drastic as it appears on the drawings, but with a lateral movement I'd imagine that's why you would see the spalling that you're seeing.

If they're calling you in for a fix, I'd steer clear of this one

They brought us in to inject the cracks with epoxy. We refused as the epoxy would either fail because of exotherm, the deck would crack next to the repair or we’d lose all the resin along the cables.
We’ve just caulked the cracks in which is what I believe the owners attempt to hide the cracks from the residents. I’m 100 percent aware this is not the right approach.
No warranty but the sealant won’t try to weld something together that is moving. This is what they asked of us.
I’m half tempted to get the city involved in case there would be a failure in the future with the signature of a concerned current resident of the property.

 

[4Waters]

They brought us in to inject the cracks with epoxy. We refused as the epoxy would either fail because of exotherm, the deck would crack next to the repair or we’d lose all the resin along the cables.
We’ve just caulked the cracks in which is what I believe the owners attempt to hide the cracks from the residents. I’m 100 percent aware this is not the right approach.
No warranty but the sealant won’t try to weld something together that is moving. This is what they asked of us.
I’m half tempted to get the city involved in case there would be a failure in the future with the signature of a concerned current resident of the property.

Cover your ass

 

[Taboma]

Most excellent!!

Total side bar....

Two weekends back we went over to Two Harbors. It's about 11:00 am and the place is full of radio chatter with people begging for a mooring.
Obnoxious and inpatient, blow boaters mostly. They are a breed I struggle with.

I announce our boat name, length, asked once for a mooring, and waited. She said power cat I've got ya, I copied and done. See did not forget.
She pulls the harbor boat up and its a gall who has been there a while. She says I'm giving you A9 (awesome can for sure)
and then..."You said 35' power but the last time you were here it was 34'." She grins.

I said "all guys round up, I'm having a good day." She laughed, my crew laughed, and I paid the bill.

Have you happened to run into a very tall old salty dog running a harbor boat at Two Harbors ? I don't know if Ray's still there or not

 

[Done-it-again]

They brought us in to inject the cracks with epoxy. We refused as the epoxy would either fail because of exotherm, the deck would crack next to the repair or we’d lose all the resin along the cables.
We’ve just caulked the cracks in which is what I believe the owners attempt to hide the cracks from the residents. I’m 100 percent aware this is not the right approach.
No warranty but the sealant won’t try to weld something together that is moving. This is what they asked of us.
I’m half tempted to get the city involved in case there would be a failure in the future with the signature of a concerned current resident of the property.

You know what happens right?

If somthing happens the last company that worked on it gets blamed. Then it’s your fight to say otherwise.

I wouldn’t have touched it without an engineering certified letter saying those are superficial cracks.

 

[Joker]

You know what happens right?

If somthing happens the last company that worked on it gets blamed. Then it’s your fight to say otherwise.

I wouldn’t have touched it without an engineering certified letter saying those are superficial cracks.

We have that letter

 

[Havasu blue label]

They brought us in to inject the cracks with epoxy. We refused as the epoxy would either fail because of exotherm, the deck would crack next to the repair or we’d lose all the resin along the cables.
We’ve just caulked the cracks in which is what I believe the owners attempt to hide the cracks from the residents. I’m 100 percent aware this is not the right approach.
No warranty but the sealant won’t try to weld something together that is moving. This is what they asked of us.
I’m half tempted to get the city involved in case there would be a failure in the future with the signature of a concerned current resident of the property.

You should of passed on the job

 

[riverroyal]

Letter means very little if someone dies....unless you notify the city building inspectors or cal osha

Because if tragedy happens you knew .
Matter of fact you put it on social media.

Spend a hour and email city and osha. You can then say you did you due diligence. Even as a anonymous whistle blower

 

[riverroyal]

Edit. Sorta. 2 years old?
The owner should have a lawyer.
This is on the structure engineer, seismic engineer, GC and concrete contractor.

Unless....corners were cut and some unscrupulous business was done and they attempted to save money.

Seems very suspicious they had you caulk this.

 

[Roosky01]

I'm sure the engineer had a stamp so it's surely not his fault?

 

[Cray Paper]

I've been a deck foreman on several buildings with PT tendon layout that doesnt make sense, key is putting a bunch of rebar around the area that will experience the stresses of the tendons when they are stressed. Seen blockout edges blow out, to many tendons with to many KIPS in beams etc lift off CIP columns etc. Depending on the owners contract (not design build) this could come back to the owners design consultants, i.e. engineer that stamped the structural drawings and submittals. I've been on projects where we have had to de-stress several tendons (was lifting the deck off the columns), projects that we had to de-stress then move stressing ends and projects where tendons broke during stressing and we had to pull new tendons back through. Brazing to the king wire is the trick for that.

That said, if I understand correctly, this is below grade in a parking garage. Something is drastically wrong with the engineering and that is not being caused by concrete shrinkage. I've never seen a column being pulled apart like that on a PT deck.

 

[Joker]

I've been a deck foreman on several buildings with PT tendon layout that doesnt make sense, key is putting a bunch of rebar around the area that will experience the stresses of the tendons when they are stressed. Seen blockout edges blow out, to many tendons with to many KIPS in beams etc lift off CIP columns etc. Depending on the owners contract (not design build) this could come back to the owners design consultants, i.e. engineer that stamped the structural drawings and submittals. I've been on projects where we have had to de-stress several tendons (was lifting the deck off the columns), projects that we had to de-stress then move stressing ends and projects where tendons broke during stressing and we had to pull new tendons back through. Brazing to the king wire is the trick for that.

That said, if I understand correctly, this is below grade in a parking garage. Something is drastically wrong with the engineering and that is not being caused by concrete shrinkage. I've never seen a column being pulled apart like that on a PT deck.

I 100 percent agree. All documentation is covered on our end expressing concerns and letters from the engineers.

 

[Cray Paper]

PT tendons are spring steel wound around a king wire strand. PT slabs crack but the tendons limit how much the crack grows, and I have always wondered how long the tendons will last. 50 years? 75 years? 100 years?

Looking at all the skyscrapers in downtown Seattle that are CIP PT buildings I often wonder what kind of shit show it will look like in a hundred years when the PT tendons start failing, which they will. Most of these giant buildings have 7 - 10 floors of parking below ground, that the shoring holding the ground back rely on the structural integrity of the floors (PT decks) to support the exterior walls (shotcrete). Typically we use tie backs (PT cables again) to hold the temporary shoring in place until the floors are cast, then the tie back cables are{ "de stressed" with a acetylene / ox torch) so the next developer doesnt run in to a bomb in the ground when they decide to dig a giant hole in the ground.

 

[OCMerrill]

Have you happened to run into a very tall old salty dog running a harbor boat at Two Harbors ? I don't know if Ray's still there or not

A nice but a bit brash guy so to speak? If so he was there a year back or so. We only dealt with the gal at two harbors and the care taker of Emerald Bay this trip. We had a ball there also so everyone that wanted to snorkel could. He lived on a CAT sail boat there at the edge of the harbor. Emerald in my preferred place to stay. When Lobster Season lights up were over there weekly. NOT hooping in the MPA wanted to make that clear.

 

[ConcreteDr]

pt cables could have slipped have they checked any in or effected area ?

 

[AEA]

They brought us in to inject the cracks with epoxy. We refused as the epoxy would either fail because of exotherm, the deck would crack next to the repair or we’d lose all the resin along the cables.
We’ve just caulked the cracks in which is what I believe the owners attempt to hide the cracks from the residents. I’m 100 percent aware this is not the right approach.
No warranty but the sealant won’t try to weld something together that is moving. This is what they asked of us.
I’m half tempted to get the city involved in case there would be a failure in the future with the signature of a concerned current resident of the property.

Your closing sentence confirms that you know the city should be involved.
Do the right thing and make sure it happens.

 

[WYRD]

Come on guys, it's just one Crack...

 

[rmarion]

the clock is ticking on statue of limitations.

Different criteria with exposed defects. (3 yesrs??)

They need to get on this ASAP.

Good luck

 

[Taboma]

A nice but a bit brash guy so to speak? If so he was there a year back or so. We only dealt with the gal at two harbors and the care taker of Emerald Bay this trip. We had a ball there also so everyone that wanted to snorkel could. He lived on a CAT sail boat there at the edge of the harbor. Emerald in my preferred place to stay. When Lobster Season lights up were over there weekly. NOT hooping in the MPA wanted to make that clear.

Yup, that's him A man of amazing talents and a million stories, who passionately pursued and was successful at accomplishing a laundry list of a variety of life-goals and occupations.
The one he truly longed for, even while engaged in various others however, was to get his skipper's license and run charter cruises on a big Cat or Tri.
It's was this final dream, although accomplished, that became his " Moby Dick " story and landed him in Two Harbors, as an otherwise unhoused, off-grid live-aboard and working far to hard for a man over 70.
Ray is the definition of a "Free Spirit".
We went to high school together and I lost contact with him a few years back.

When my wife and I were ocean boaters we truly loved our Catalina vacations. 29 years ago we sold our last sportfisher and relocated our recreation time to Havasu and haven't been back.
I've spent untold hours scanning Yacht World dreaming of returning to the sea, but after doing the accounting, reading what others, including yourself have shared, I'm forced to realize, it's gotten far more (Too) expensive an endeavor since we've been away in the desert.
Dig your boat sir and thanks for sharing your boating stories