Cam/lifter failure

[jetboatperformance]

I dont keep exact track of the amount of engines we have built over the years However suffice it to say "hundreds" My track record on flat tappet hydraulics has be one about 15 years ago . We are very careful as to what we use and how we go about "breakin" (oils additives etc) and we use the tradition suggested time and RPM procedures . Well last week we lost one . The engine ran well after breakin and then for several hours in actual operation .... until it didnt (lost three lobes and lifters . To date the manufacturer has summarily said tough sh*t . I know there's been a lot of discussion of late , curious what the experiences have been here ?

 

[4Waters]

I hear stories from both sides but my experience is the one and only cam I broke in went flat during break in and never did it again and never had one go flat since

 

[Hammer]

I had a set of Hydraulic lifters fail after dyno break in time and maybe an hour of ruin time in the boat. It seems there were a bunch of lifters out on the market that weren't "good" from the get go. I had to eat it too, I thought it was kinda strange for a lifter to just stop pumping up when they were new out of the box.

 

[Nordie]

If I ever decide to get back into boating again (jet bote), I'll never ever do another flat tappet cam again. It's just not worth it.

 

[Bigbore500r]

I dont keep exact track of the amount of engines we have built over the years However suffice it to say "hundreds" My track record on flat tappet hydraulics has be one about 15 years ago . We are very careful as to what we use and how we go about "breakin" (oils additives etc) and we use the tradition suggested time and RPM procedures . Well last week we lost one . The engine ran well after breakin and then for several hours in actual operation .... until it didnt (lost three lobes and lifters . To date the manufacturer has summarily said tough sh*t . I know there's been a lot of discussion of late , curious what the experiences have been here ?

Most builders out there won't even entertain using a flat tappet cam these days. I've personally lost 2 over the last 15 years, had another 3 live. So 40% failure rate, same break-in process, same lube, same procedures. These were performance cams with dual springs, not stockers. If I absolutely had to use a flat tappet, I would be looking to use break-in springs during cam run-in and then change them out after the break-in run.

For rollers, I've been using Johnson's in everything the last few years with good luck.
I'm trying the new Comp evolution hyd. rollers, in my new motor, we'll see how that goes......

 

[coolchange]

My brother had 1 flatten a little while ago. Lifter was flat on bottom, no cup at all. He found some nos trw and ran those. I know of a builder that turns brand new lifters into spec for his builds.
I’m contemplating a bbc build now, don’t want cost of roller, but if I have to do 2 flat tappets, I’m already at cost.$

 

[UltraLucky]

I had a solid roller fail at the start of last season.

 

[HALLETT BOY]

The consensus on YouTube engine builders is the lifters aren’t ground with enough of a “dome “ and the cam isn’t ground with a proper ramp angle …

 

[monkeyswrench]

Dunno, over the past 20ish years, probably close to 40 motors, I've had 2 cam issues. These aren't all whizbang, cool motors. All said and done, probably 75% pretty mild, basic stuff. Both failures were flat tappet hydraulic, what I would consider milder cams. All assembled and broke in the same. Both failed under 10 hours of "use", under 15 or so total.

Both were in the last 4-5 years, both from the same large, commercial, cam manufacturer. I was thinking a bad run of blanks in my case.

 

[Nordie]

Most builders out there won't even entertain using a flat tappet cam these days. I've personally lost 2 over the last 15 years, had another 3 live. So 40% failure rate, same break-in process, same lube, same procedures. These were performance cams with dual springs, not stockers. If I absolutely had to use a flat tappet, I would be looking to use break-in springs during cam run-in and then change them out after the break-in run.

For rollers, I've been using Johnson's in everything the last few years with good luck.
I'm trying the new Comp evolution hyd. rollers, in my new motor, we'll see how that goes......

My last BBC I stuck to the break in procedure to exact instructions, I pulled the inner springs and broke the cam in, then tore everything down to reinstall the inner springs. I even ran high zinc oil and I still lost a few lobes. I had maybe 35 hours on the engine. It was my second engine that summer, and after I grenaded that one I decided to take a break from boating. I had no idea that I was gonna stay boatless this long. Just because I'm currently boatless I'd do it all over again.

Broke jet boters know how to have a good time

 

[jetboatperformance]

My guess is soft lifter material , Breakin procedure had two tubes of Lucas cam breakin run 25 minutes at 2500 rpm non stop These components have very little run time since breakin

 

[Brian]

Cam cores and lifter material are soft. Was told that the covid boom made some cam companies buy sub par cores and this is the result. Supposedly everyone is back to good cores now.

 

[rivermobster]

My guess is soft lifter material , Breakin procedure had two tubes of Lucas cam breakin run 25 minutes at 2500 rpm non stop These components have very little run time since breakin

Holy fuck that's hard to believe!!!

What oil did you use?

Did you use zinc additive?

I've always used Comp Cams Break In Oil. That's all JMS Racing ever used as well. We also used Comp Cams Lube on all the valve train components. Hundreds of engines went out the door in the years I worked at JMS. I don't recall a single issue like what you posted. That's crazy.

Are you sure the cam wasn't walking around for some reason?

Break-In & Assembly Oils - Lubricants & Fluids - Products - COMP Cams®

www.compcams.com

 

[Boat 405]

I lost a flat tappet brand new cam and lifters about 20 years ago. Since then I've never done anything besides solid rollers. On my lake boat stuff I run fairly aggressive lift for a "lake boat". .700 plus lift / 270-280 dur @ 50. I swap out a cam and lifters at 100 hrs regardless. I have the lifters rebuilt if possible (isky redzone stuff, and a new cam ground from Bullet.)

 

[jetboatperformance]

Holy fuck that's hard to believe!!!

What oil did you use?

Did you use zinc additive?

I've always used Comp Cams Break In Oil. That's all JMS Racing ever used as well. We also used Comp Cams Lube on all the valve train components. Hundreds of engines went out the door in the years I worked at JMS. I don't recall a single issue like what you posted. That's crazy.

Are you sure the cam wasn't walking around for some reason?

Break-In & Assembly Oils - Lubricants & Fluids - Products - COMP Cams®

www.compcams.com

2 Lucas "cam breakin" Tubes for 10 qts of 15/40 Rotella (dinosuar) , same as the last successful 30 or 40 JBP motors

 

[rivermobster]

2 Lucas "cam breakin" Tubes for 10 qts of 15/40 Rotella (dinosuar) , same as the last successful 30 or 40 JBP motors

Rotella has zinc, so that's good.

Try the Comp Cam products maybe? I'd be checking hard for the cam maybe moving around. That looks like 200k mi on a worn out 283!

 

[CANUCK007]

Rotella formula has changed recently. Not as much zinc. Haven’t been able to
Buy decent hydraulic lifters in years. Did have real good luck with Johnson in three motors recently. Lasted longer than teague build crane?? I think

 

[jetboatperformance]

Rotella has zinc, so that's good.

Try the Comp Cam products maybe? I'd be checking hard for the cam maybe moving around. That looks like 200k mi on a worn out 283!

Joe this and the methods have worked for more succesfull engines than we can count , I dont believe we could have avoided this cam/lifter failure , when google this mfg has page after page of problems as I research

 

[coolchange]

My guess is soft lifter material , Breakin procedure had two tubes of Lucas cam breakin run 25 minutes at 2500 rpm non stop These components have very little run time since breakin

Can’t really see but looks like those aren’t turning? Do you have any you can check the dish?

 

[jetboatperformance]

Can’t really see but looks like those aren’t turning? Do you have any you can check the dish?

will check a couple mannana~ ty

 

[Nordie]

Let's go boating, whatever you thought is fun go have fun. This is a terrible video, but a glass Lake Mead deserves some love!

Enjoy the ride

 

[hman442]

My vote is for $hit parts. More China influence, poor soft, untested metal, poor procedure, skipping most of the old school quality control and letting a computerized camera do it instead ? What about heat treating, or is that a thing? On airplane engines, I've read that the cams and lifter faces are heat treated. On a bit of a tangent, as of late, some aero engine builders have been refacing the lifters, reshaped, but they don't do anything about the heat treating that they jhiust ground off. We've noticed lots of premature (200-300 hrs) lifters pit and that takes out the cam. The old timers didn't seem to have these issues 20 years ago, but lately, heard of quite a few. The engine guys say it's moisture attacking, but, we live in a desert climate in Eastern Oregon, cars never rust, cars and boats that sit for years are okay, but a plane with light use for a couple years has ruined lifters, etc.

 

[Neverbowdown]

My last BBC I stuck to the break in procedure to exact instructions, I pulled the inner springs and broke the cam in, then tore everything down to reinstall the inner springs. I even ran high zinc oil and I still lost a few lobes. I had maybe 35 hours on the engine. It was my second engine that summer, and after I grenaded that one I decided to take a break from boating. I had no idea that I was gonna stay boatless this long. Just because I'm currently boatless I'd do it all over again.

Broke jet boters know how to have a good time

View attachment 1247333 View attachment 1247334 View attachment 1247335

Well it appears you changed engine manufacturers so that was a smart move!

 

[Nordie]

Well it appears you changed engine manufacturers so that was a smart move!

You're such a clown. Why are you so insufferable?

 

[Neverbowdown]

Just pointing out the obvious, you speak of your bad luck with the BBC, and I'm assuming those abbreviations are engine related, then you have pictures of a beautiful boat with a "BBF" in it, we call people names now? Sheeze, touchy touchy. Your video wasn't crummy either, sounded like music to me.

 

[28Eliminator]

Crap cam cores and even crapier lifter bodies. I’ve read a lot about flat tappet failures the last few years.. no or little crown, no hardening on the face.. I wouldn’t touch one.

Or a Morel roller..

 

[BUBBAMAN]

After losing one flat tappet cam in a BBC build I switched to hydraulic rollers.

 

[rrrr]

I'm 7-0, most of those were SBCs. My last one was in 2004, the 1963 427 FE in my '67 Howard. The engine was still standard bore and had all stock internals. It was a very early production low riser. How early? Inspection of identification stampings on the cam nose revealed it was a 406 CI cam. I guess there was a parts shortage for the new engine.

I installed a Clay Smith cam in it, straight up, and used their break in lube. I was so paranoid about the startup, I spent the time to measure and index the distributor at exactly 10° BTDC. It wasn't going to be one of those deals where the hold down clamp was loose and doing some twisting while cranking until it fired.

The carburetors had been rebuilt at the Carb Shop, and the engine was rigged with an electric fuel pump, there's no mechanical pad on the 427. The pump filled the bowls, and I had the idle preset.

After a final careful inspection of the engine, I pumped the carburetors' linkage a few times, shooting 105 octane fuel into the intake system of the beast. I was standing next to the engine, and someone else turned the key. The engine literally turned one revolution and started, and the RPM was right where I wanted it. The break in went perfect.

That was the most I've ever sweated a flat tappet startup. I had been having nightmares about metal debris pumping through my 41 year old 427.

 

[Nordie]

Just pointing out the obvious, you speak of your bad luck with the BBC, and I'm assuming those abbreviations are engine related, then you have pictures of a beautiful boat with a "BBF" in it, we call people names now? Sheeze, touchy touchy. Your video wasn't crummy either, sounded like music to me.

I actually blew up the Ford first then put a Chevy in it and blew that one up. The BBC was 20mph faster until it wasn't.

 

[coolchange]

I'm 7-0, most of those were SBCs. My last one was in 2004, the 1963 427 FE in my '67 Howard. The engine was still standard bore and had all stock internals. It was a very early production low riser. How early? It had a 406 cam in it. I guess there was a parts shortage for the new engine.

I installed a Clay Smith cam in it, straight up, and used their break in lube. I was so paranoid about the startup, I spent the time to measure and index the distributor at exactly 10° BTDC. It wasn't going to be one of those deals where the hold down clamp was loose and doing some twisting while cranking until it fired.

The carburetors had been rebuilt at the Carb Shop, and the engine was rigged with an electric fuel pump, there's no mechanical pad on the 427. The pump filled the bowls, and I had the idle preset. I was next to the engine, and someone else turned the key,.

The engine literally turned one revolution and started, and the RPM was right where I wanted it. The break in went perfect.

That was the most I've ever sweated a flat tappet startup. I had been having nightmares about metal debris pumping through my 41 year old 427.

View attachment 1247520

I love that boat

 

[ElAzul]

My last BBC I stuck to the break in procedure to exact instructions, I pulled the inner springs and broke the cam in, then tore everything down to reinstall the inner springs. I even ran high zinc oil and I still lost a few lobes. I had maybe 35 hours on the engine. It was my second engine that summer, and after I grenaded that one I decided to take a break from boating. I had no idea that I was gonna stay boatless this long. Just because I'm currently boatless I'd do it all over again.

Broke jet boters know how to have a good time

View attachment 1247333 View attachment 1247334 View attachment 1247335

99% sure I owned that boat at one time or it's identical twin

 

[Nordie]

99% sure I owned that boat at one time or it's identical twin

You might have, it's been passed around...I think they made a lot of them in that color scheme. It was a full stringer Tahiti, made by Hardin Marine. I believe it was an 84

 

[Eliminator21vdrive]

By the time you factor in replacing pistons because of metal inbeaded in them and possibility of bearing and crank damage a roller is a cheap insurance policy!

 

[Nordie]

By the time you factor in replacing pistons because of metal inbeaded in them and possibility of bearing and crank damage a roller is a cheap insurance policy!

I want it to survive, I'm getting really tired of window tinting my work trucks.

 

[77 SLEEK]

My vote is for $hit parts. More China influence, poor soft, untested metal, poor procedure, skipping most of the old school quality control and letting a computerized camera do it instead ? What about heat treating, or is that a thing? On airplane engines, I've read that the cams and lifter faces are heat treated. On a bit of a tangent, as of late, some aero engine builders have been refacing the lifters, reshaped, but they don't do anything about the heat treating that they jhiust ground off. We've noticed lots of premature (200-300 hrs) lifters pit and that takes out the cam. The old timers didn't seem to have these issues 20 years ago, but lately, heard of quite a few. The engine guys say it's moisture attacking, but, we live in a desert climate in Eastern Oregon, cars never rust, cars and boats that sit for years are okay, but a plane with light use for a couple years has ruined lifters, etc.

I have to agree, shit parts from China. We took this out of a Ford 6.8 L this morning. Engine has 32,000 miles on it.

 

[jetboatperformance]

This manufacturer like most believe because they simply state "no liability or reasonability for consequential or incidental damages" on the literature they send with the parts , that indeed they have none , At the risk of "tilting at windmills" I may take this issue further , this was my response from the MFG so far :



Tom
Our warranty policy is to repair or replace parts that fail. A bad break-in is wouldn’t necessarily fall under “warranty” because there are many things that can go wrong during a break-in (wrong oil used, no zinc, high spring pressure, etc…), however, we have made it our policy to replace those cams and lifters with break-in guidance for the replacement. We cannot warranty an engine or labor for an installation and break-in that we had nothing to do with because we have no way of knowing what the procedure was during the process. I often use the analogy of having a tv mounted to the wall and have the mount fall and then ask the mount manufacturer for a new tv. The mount wasn’t installed by the mount manufacturer, so they wouldn’t replace the tv even though the installer has been doing it for over a decade.
I understand that you and your son have a lot of experience with engine building but, quite frankly, so does everyone else who contacts our warranty department over a bad break-in. The reality is that many things can go wrong during the process and we cannot cover any extra expenses that may result from them. The kit you ordered is a popular kit and each are made with the same lifters and cam core. There is no material defect in these because, if so, they would all be coming back to us prompting our QC team to investigate, but that just isn’t the case.
I am happy to replace the kit, but that is the extent of what I can do

 

[4Waters]

This manufacturer like most believe because they simply state "no liability or reasonability for consequential or incidental damages" on the literature they send with the parts , that indeed they have none , At the risk of "tilting at windmills" I may take this issue further , this was my response from the MFG so far :



Tom
Our warranty policy is to repair or replace parts that fail. A bad break-in is wouldn’t necessarily fall under “warranty” because there are many things that can go wrong during a break-in (wrong oil used, no zinc, high spring pressure, etc…), however, we have made it our policy to replace those cams and lifters with break-in guidance for the replacement. We cannot warranty an engine or labor for an installation and break-in that we had nothing to do with because we have no way of knowing what the procedure was during the process. I often use the analogy of having a tv mounted to the wall and have the mount fall and then ask the mount manufacturer for a new tv. The mount wasn’t installed by the mount manufacturer, so they wouldn’t replace the tv even though the installer has been doing it for over a decade.
I understand that you and your son have a lot of experience with engine building but, quite frankly, so does everyone else who contacts our warranty department over a bad break-in. The reality is that many things can go wrong during the process and we cannot cover any extra expenses that may result from them. The kit you ordered is a popular kit and each are made with the same lifters and cam core. There is no material defect in these because, if so, they would all be coming back to us prompting our QC team to investigate, but that just isn’t the case.
I am happy to replace the kit, but that is the extent of what I can do

Pay with a CC next time and dispute the charges if the product fails.

 

[jetboatperformance]

Pay with a CC next time and dispute the charges if the product fails.

We buy thru Atech motorsports wholesale , really not fair to them to contest it that way