CA Signs Bill for Healthcare for Illegals

[SNiC Jet]

List for me a single country that has higher health care costs per capita than the USA.

I’ll wait...

Find me one that has better overall health care....and produces advancements in health care achievements in medicine and technology......

 

[rrrr]

I believe every word you typed here is true... It is also EXACTLY why we need universal healthcare.

The legislation we are talking about in this thread has nothing to do with your friends situations now does it...

Of course it does. Tax dollars are being spent on people invading our country. Do you recall the $5.6 billion dollar legislation Trump signed last week? That money should be helping citizens, not freeloaders.

The money California is spending on illegal aliens belongs to the citizens, and that's who should get the benefits of it, not thousands of invaders who got here by some fucking liberal paying for the caravans.

 

[regor]

The ACA couldn’t have been further from a single payer system...

List for me a single country that has higher health care costs per capita than the USA.

I’ll wait...

List for me a single country that has better health care than the USA.

I’ll wait..

Nothing's free squeaky!!!! It used to be affordable for most until government kept sticking their noses in it and now you want to turn it completely over to them...............

 

[squeezer]

Find me one that has better overall health care....and produces advancements in health care achievements in medicine and technology......

No problem,

Whats your metric to gauge effectiveness? (I suggest expected lifespan and infant mortality rates)

Whats you metric to measure costs? (I suggest cost per capita and/or % of GDP)

Achievements in medicine and technology are much harder to quantify but they should get us results in the effectiveness metric would they not...?

Agree to the terms and lets research the numbers.

 

[squeezer]

List for me a single country that has better health care than the USA.

I’ll wait..

Nothing's free squeaky!!!! It used to be affordable for most until government kept sticking their noses in it and now you want to turn it completely over to them............... View attachment 774113

Really...??? How far back in history do you go to find a time when a healthcare emergency wouldn't bankrupt the average person?

 

[SNiC Jet]

Achievements in medicine and technology are much harder to quantify but they should get us results in the effectiveness metric would they not...?

Funny...you damn right you can't quantify these numbers as you want to utilize the U.S. healthcare/medical advancements that are implemented worldwide to save lives in other countries in your failed efforts to win your argument......PRICELESS! ........You just made my point!

The entire worlds healthcare is better off if the U.S. remains as an inovation leader in the healthcare industry! Removing the incentives...removes the results. There is a fair and balanced solution out there....we just need to get the greedy out of our way! Bottom Line: handing this all over to the gov to fix is insanity X 10!

 

[westair]

insanity

 

[regor]

Really...??? How far back in history do you go to find a time when a healthcare emergency wouldn't bankrupt the average person?

Not long for those who work and spend responsibly. Hell, how about yesterday.........................Stalin!!!!!!

 

[SNiC Jet]

.....when a healthcare emergency wouldn't bankrupt the average person?

Better than bankrupting an entire nation......One again..^^^^ this is a symptom of a bigger problem. Stop treating the symptoms and address the cause!

 

[squeezer]

Funny...you damn right you can't quantify these numbers as you want to utilize the U.S. healthcare/medical advancements that are implemented worldwide to save lives in other countries in your failed efforts to win your argument......PRICELESS! ........You just made my point!

The entire worlds healthcare is better off if the U.S. remains as an inovation leader in the healthcare industry! Removing the incentives...removes the results. There is a fair and balanced solution out there....we just need to get the greedy out of our way! Bottom Line: handing this all over to the gov to fix is insanity X 10!

So you are saying the rest of the world takes our medical innovations and somehow finds a way to get better results with less cost... ????

I wonder OH how I wonder what they could possibly be doing different.

 

[SNiC Jet]

So you are saying the rest of the world takes our medical innovations and somehow finds a way to get better results with less cost... ????

I wonder OH how I wonder what they could possibly be doing different.

Sure...much of the "heavy lifting" is done and the insurance bureaucracy is minimized.... apparently you do not appreciate nor realize the tremendous efforts and costs of failures and successes involved in order to reach a particular goal of these magnitudes. Sorry, as much as you believe and try.....you can't "quick fix" this one. But IMO, gov assisting in these development costs is a big win for all. The gov does assist with grants and so forth...but not enough to dilute the costs.

 

[wallnutz]

Bring em all in California, you can be the sanctuary for the country. You can add a few more illegals to soon become homeless. Enjoy your filth, and your dinner!

Cheers!

 

[SNiC Jet]

Bring em all in California, you can be the sanctuary for the country. You can add a few more illegals to soon become homeless. Enjoy your filth, and your dinner! View attachment 774207 Cheers!

 

[RodnJen]

I really can't believe I'm reading this. So who exactly do you think should pay for this? I have a couple friends who are divorced. They both run businesses and have paid into the system since they were teens. They are now in their early 50's. The last couple years they have both had to drop their health insurance because it just became to expensive. Now they are at high risk of losing everything in the event they develop a serious illness. This is the same scenario for my 35 yr old son and his fiancee. She is covered at work but until married my son cannot afford it. In January this year my son developed a blood clot in his spin. The surgery and subsequent rehab cost him over $14000.00 which he is now paying. No one in the government stepped up and offered him jack shit, yet you're ok with these border jumpers getting full benefits.
Your argument that "because they are here they should have free health care" is insulting to say the least. You and your band of "vote buying liberals" make me sick!
By supporting these policy's you are making it harder for those who live here to afford health care for themselves and their families. I seriously hope that this law comes back to roost right on your front porch. You and the crooked politicians you support. Maybe sometime in the not to distant future you may find yourself with a healthcare system which requires you to wait 7 to 8 mo to get help because Pedro and his illegal family got in line ahead of you.

I wanted to wait until I got home to respond. Your post deserved better than a quick reply on a phone.

You gave very specific and true examples of what is wrong with healthcare and insurance in our great country. The presence of illegals in the U.S. is absolutely a contributor to the issues we are having with HC and insurance. Are they the sole, or even the main driver of the ineffective and inefficient delivery of care in our society, no.

Insurance companies have been slowly and methodically disrupting care to particpants for years because the lie that has been sold to Americans is that you need full coverage HC insurance to receive care. This has become more evident as major health systems, the largest contracts for insurance companies, have been squeezing out small doctor and ancillary service providers. Chare what you will as a doctor, but Blue Cross can come in and tell you what you will be paid regardless of quality of care or cost of doing business. They have that level of power and influence. Medicare can do the same thing for that matter.

What has happened is people without insurance flood the emergency rooms for non-emergent care. This has been occurring since the Reagan era when he signed into law that no person, regardless of diagnosis, could be turned away at the emergency room.

In the case of your son, there is a difference between receiving a level of care that returns him to his previous condition, than receiving emergent care at a hospital. Jumpers don't get full benefits, to use your words. I hope your son has made full recovery.

All of the examples you stated are the exact reasons we need insurance and healthcare reform. To answer the question of who should pay, we are already paying for it in the most inefficient and expensive way possible.

 

[Andy B.]

Funny thing is squeez still hasn't named a country that has better healthcare and doctors than the US!! Crickets , people from Canada come just to have surgeries done because there system sucks!

 

[Uncle Dave]

I wanted to wait until I got home to respond. Your post deserved better than a quick reply on a phone.

You gave very specific and true examples of what is wrong with healthcare and insurance in our great country. The presence of illegals in the U.S. is absolutely a contributor to the issues we are having with HC and insurance. Are they the sole, or even the main driver of the ineffective and inefficient delivery of care in our society, no.

Insurance companies have been slowly and methodically disrupting care to particpants for years because the lie that has been sold to Americans is that you need full coverage HC insurance to receive care. This has become more evident as major health systems, the largest contracts for insurance companies, have been squeezing out small doctor and ancillary service providers. Chare what you will as a doctor, but Blue Cross can come in and tell you what you will be paid regardless of quality of care or cost of doing business. They have that level of power and influence. Medicare can do the same thing for that matter.

What has happened is people without insurance flood the emergency rooms for non-emergent care. This has been occurring since the Reagan era when he signed into law that no person, regardless of diagnosis, could be turned away at the emergency room.

In the case of your son, there is a difference between receiving a level of care that returns him to his previous condition, than receiving emergent care at a hospital. Jumpers don't get full benefits, to use your words. I hope your son has made full recovery.

All of the examples you stated are the exact reasons we need insurance and healthcare reform. To answer the question of who should pay, we are already paying for it in the most inefficient and expensive way possible.

There is merit in that position - we certainly are paying for it today in the most expensive way possible and non-emergency sicknesses dealt with in emergency rooms clog up the systems and generate bills they don't pay anyway - increasing prices dramatically for everyone.

That said Im uncertain this solution lowers cost - what it does is help the healthcare providers spread the load and get them paid a base rate - problem I see is that they won't actually lower their costs bases but will simply keep raising them.

What on one level appears altruistic can just as a more effective way to secure receivables and insure continued record rising profits.

UD

 

[RodnJen]

There is merit in that position - we certainly are paying for it today in the most expensive way possible and non-emergency sicknesses dealt with in emergency rooms clog up the systems and generate bills they don't pay anyway - increasing prices dramatically for everyone.

That said Im uncertain this solution lowers cost - what it does is help the healthcare providers spread the load and get them paid a base rate - problem I see is that they won't actually lower their costs bases but will simply keep raising them.

What on one level appears altruistic can just as a more effective way to secure receivables and insure continued record rising profits.

UD

Record rising profits for who? The only entities receiving record profits are insurance companies and cash-for-care doctors performing elective surgeries. Actually we are so far along in this mess, a complete implosion may occur before an actual solution is found. I would hope we could find more sensible reform, but the current political climate makes that an unlikely scenario.

 

[Andy B.]

I have an idea take better care of yourselves and deport all illegal aliens and as far as daca if you've been here more than two years that's plenty of time to become a citizen or at least start the process! Enforce our laws and take out the trash common sense solution in my opinion. That would be a good start and save billions of dollars so sick of all this sensitive political correctness the truth hurts deal with it!!!

 

[rrrr]

So you are saying the rest of the world takes our medical innovations and somehow finds a way to get better results with less cost... ????

I wonder OH how I wonder what they could possibly be doing different.

If you think the "rest of the world" has the same advanced technologies and treatment options as the United States does, you're mistaken.

Which is no surprise.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Record rising profits for who? The only entities receiving record profits are insurance companies and cash-for-care doctors performing elective surgeries. Actually we are so far along in this mess, a complete implosion may occur before an actual solution is found. I would hope we could find more sensible reform, but the current political climate makes that an unlikely scenario.

The entire industry is incredibly profitable.
The drug companies are making a killing getting seemingly more than their fair share.
The AXIOS 100 list is a pretty good set of numbers to look at.


UD

 

[Old Texan]

No problem,

Whats your metric to gauge effectiveness? (I suggest expected lifespan and infant mortality rates)

Whats you metric to measure costs? (I suggest cost per capita and/or % of GDP)

Achievements in medicine and technology are much harder to quantify but they should get us results in the effectiveness metric would they not...?

Agree to the terms and lets research the numbers.

Biff when will you remember how many times your canned liberal statistics have been broken down to the point they've been incorrect. Twisting the numbers on how things like infant mortality rates are figured completely shoots your whole argument in the ass.

Stay on topic, this is about giving away the store and putting more burden on the legal resident tax payers. The vast majority of whom want these freeloaders and criminals out of our country period.

You liberals fucks want to pay for those that you allow to come illegally, take up a collection and form a fucking charity to pay for it. Stay the hell out of government funds collected through taxes. Have a bake sale, throw a benefit, sit out in front of your favorite hang outs with a bell and kettle to collect change. It's a liberal wish to help these parasites, not a citizen responsibility.

 

[Uncle Dave]

If you think the "rest of the world" has the same advanced technologies and treatment options as the United States does, you're mistaken.

Which is no surprise.

They have the tech- but not enough of it from a requested use perspective.

Wait time to get into an MRI or get laparoscopic surgery with advanced tool like a Davinci surgical Robot are ridiculous outside of the US - unless you opt for secondary insurance.

I had a cat an MRI, laparoscopic exploratory, and then a Davinci surgery - within 2 weeks.

UD

 

[rrrr]

Insurance companies have been slowly and methodically disrupting care to particpants for years because the lie that has been sold to Americans is that you need full coverage HC insurance to receive care. This has become more evident as major health systems, the largest contracts for insurance companies, have been squeezing out small doctor and ancillary service providers.

Before Obamacare, one could buy the level of insurance they wanted to pay for. Obama and the Democrats are responsible for the requirement of "full coverage" healthcare. It's not a "lie", it's the law.

You're arguing from a position of ignoring the facts.

 

[Old Texan]

So you are saying the rest of the world takes our medical innovations and somehow finds a way to get better results with less cost... ????

I wonder OH how I wonder what they could possibly be doing different.

For one thing drugs produced in the US sell cheaper abroad then they do in the US. We pay the R&D costs, other countries don't so much.

 

[Andy B.]

Before Obamacare, one could buy the level of insurance they wanted to pay for. Obama and the Democrats are responsible for the requirement of "full coverage" healthcare.

You're arguing from a position of ignoring the facts.

Exactly it's easier for them to bury their heads in the sand!

 

[RodnJen]

The entire industry is incredibly profitable.
The drug companies are making a killing getting seemingly more than their fair share.
The AXIOS 100 list is a pretty good set of numbers to look at.


UD

The insurance industry yes, not the HC industry. Specifically care providers not associated with major medical systems are being forced to close or affiliate is a larger care provider. Kaiser is an entirely different business model and doing very well.

 

[Old Texan]

Take a stroll through a large university medical center and realize how many foreign students are receiving their training here in the USA.
Doctors are developed in the US, not in India or other nations. We have the equipment and the talent is grown here......Yet the liberal propaganda has our health "system" ranked below other nations that have little and few.

Liberalism is the main disease we are failing to find a cure for......

 

[squeezer]

Funny thing is squeez still hasn't named a country that has better healthcare and doctors than the US!! Crickets , people from Canada come just to have surgeries done because there system sucks!

So you are fine with the metrics I laid out....


Life expectancy... (Scroll WAY down the list for the USA)

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/life-expectancy/

Infant Mortality Rate.

Cost per person:

And just in case some of the fact challenged set want to blame the ACA... The rate of change went down during President Obama's time in the Oval.

But yea, you geniuses go ahead and blame the healthcare problems we have in this country on legislation in California that hasn't taken effect yet...

 

[RodnJen]

Before Obamacare, one could buy the level of insurance they wanted to pay for. Obama and the Democrats are responsible for the requirement of "full coverage" healthcare. It's not a "lie", it's the law.

You're arguing from a position of ignoring the facts.

Partially true. It was moving that direction long before the ACA. The fact that you are ignoring is that 20 million more people had health insurance as a result of the ACA. The uninsured rate dropped to an all-time low in 2016 as well.

 

[squeezer]

For one thing drugs produced in the US sell cheaper abroad then they do in the US. We pay the R&D costs, other countries don't so much.

Insulin costs 20X more in the USA than Canada. It was discovered in 1922, at the University of Toronto...

 

[Andy B.]

Yeah but everyone come here to get worked on who gives a shit about life expectancy and mortality rates that has nothing to do with the government getting involved and screwing things up! Like I said in the other post take better care of yourself deport the illegals and enforce existing laws!! A lot of people in the US are overweight and don't give two shits about their health why should I pay for them and people that aren't citizens! And I could give two shits about CA I never blamed them for our health care problem that makes no sense. Liberal democrats are the problem if they want to help everyone they should open their wallets and stay out of mine!!

 

[rrrr]

The insurance industry yes, not the HC industry. Specifically care providers not associated with major medical systems are being forced to close or affiliate is a larger care provider. Kaiser is an entirely different business model and doing very well.

Again, you don't know the facts. The eight largest health insurers' profits are somewhere between five and seven percent. Just curious, Rod, what's your company's net profit margin?

It's impossible to find news reports on insurers' that aren't biased. Note the adjective "hefty" describing the income, and the stunning 5.2% profits made in the the quarter of 2018.

The eight largest insurers made more than $7 billion during the third quarter of 2018 and pulled in a hefty $132.4 billion in revenue.

More of the same bullshit about United Healthcare's 3Q profits:

Unsurprisingly, UnitedHealthcare raked in the greatest profits. It earned $3.3 billion in the third quarter of 2018 on $56.6 billion in revenue, up from $2.5 billion during the third quarter of 2017.

That's a stunning 5.8% profit. It's criminal what these insurers are getting away with.

Here's the link to the exaggeration and hyperbole that's supposed to be reporting.

https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/pa...ish-strong-year-raking-132-4-billion-total-q3

 

[squeezer]

Biff when will you remember how many times your canned liberal statistics have been broken down to the point they've been incorrect. Twisting the numbers on how things like infant mortality rates are figured completely shoots your whole argument in the ass.

Stay on topic, this is about giving away the store and putting more burden on the legal resident tax payers. The vast majority of whom want these freeloaders and criminals out of our country period.

You liberals fucks want to pay for those that you allow to come illegally, take up a collection and form a fucking charity to pay for it. Stay the hell out of government funds collected through taxes. Have a bake sale, throw a benefit, sit out in front of your favorite hang outs with a bell and kettle to collect change. It's a liberal wish to help these parasites, not a citizen responsibility.

OK then lets play it this way...

ANYBODY (Corporation, individual, anybody) caught employing an illegal is immediately subject to a fine equal to one years cost of welfare plus one years cost of healthcare per offense.

 

[wallnutz]

OK then lets play it this way...

ANYBODY (Corporation, individual, anybody) caught employing an illegal is immediately subject to a fine equal to one years cost of welfare plus one years cost of healthcare per offense.

Perfect! Then we can come up with a fool proof ID that we can use for everything, including voting. No ID, no job, no ID no vote. No ID no healthcare. Pretty simple.

 

[Andy B.]

For fucks sake squeezed st least admit oshitcare started this debacle and is the reason for the mess we are in. Government is not the cure healthcare is not a human right government regulation is not the answer.

 

[Andy B.]

OK then lets play it this way...

ANYBODY (Corporation, individual, anybody) caught employing an illegal is immediately subject to a fine equal to one years cost of welfare plus one years cost of healthcare per offense.

Now your talking I can get on board with this except for the healthcare part.

 

[mjc]

Partially true. It was moving that direction long before the ACA. The fact that you are ignoring is that 20 million more people had health insurance as a result of the ACA. The uninsured rate dropped to an all-time low in 2016 as well.

Those 20 mil had tax payer paid health care, not the same as you and me. Aka medicare.

 

[mjc]

Y

So you are fine with the metrics I laid out....


Life expectancy... (Scroll WAY down the list for the USA)

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/life-expectancy/

Infant Mortality Rate.

View attachment 774224



Cost per person:

View attachment 774229


And just in case some of the fact challenged set want to blame the ACA... The rate of change went down during President Obama's time in the Oval.

View attachment 774230

But yea, you geniuses go ahead and blame the healthcare problems we have in this country on legislation in California that hasn't taken effect yet...

You need to look at how those other countries come up with there infant numbers. They are way different than we do it. We count every kid that comes out many others only count them somewhat later in life.

 

[rrrr]

Partially true. It was moving that direction long before the ACA. The fact that you are ignoring is that 20 million more people had health insurance as a result of the ACA. The uninsured rate dropped to an all-time low in 2016 as well.

It wasn't "moving in that direction long before the ACA". That's a bunch of crap. Consumers could choose from a dozen or more insurers, and select coverage which included or excluded specific underwriting.

Those 20 million people got insurance because it's subsidized by the government and paid for with tax receipts and higher insurance costs for those that don't qualify for the ACA handouts.

Like Vinny Gambino said in his opening argument, "Everything that guy just said is bullshit".

 

[Old Texan]

OK then lets play it this way...

ANYBODY (Corporation, individual, anybody) caught employing an illegal is immediately subject to a fine equal to one years cost of welfare plus one years cost of healthcare per offense.

Got no problem with that as long as those illegals are deported immediately and the contractor they typically work for is fined along with the company that got caught having them on property. Most illegals work for contractors from what I've seen and that isn't being policed effectively.

 

[Old Texan]

Y

You need to look at how those other countries come up with there infant numbers. They are way different than we do it. We count every kid that comes out many others only count them somewhat later in life.

The point he and the liberals using their tweaked stats won't admit to.....

 

[rrrr]

So you are fine with the metrics I laid out....


Life expectancy... (Scroll WAY down the list for the USA)

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/life-expectancy/

Infant Mortality Rate.

View attachment 774224



Cost per person:

View attachment 774229


And just in case some of the fact challenged set want to blame the ACA... The rate of change went down during President Obama's time in the Oval.

View attachment 774230

But yea, you geniuses go ahead and blame the healthcare problems we have in this country on legislation in California that hasn't taken effect yet...

Again, facts elude the liberals. There are valid statistical reasons the infant mortality and life expectancy rates for US citizens are lower than a handful of other countries.

This article was written by an economics professor at Pepperdine University who has had a distinguished career with many published papers and books. He's not some dipshit working for CNN.

Unfortunately, though, infant mortality and life expectancy comparisons stink as health care efficiency indicators.

Using infant mortality as a condemnation of American health care not only ignores important differences in what countries count as infant deaths, it ignores many factors unrelated to health care quality that would dramatically change comparisons.

Nonviable babies who die quickly after birth are recorded as live births in the US, but are more likely to be classified as stillbirths in other countries, particularly if they die before birth is legally registered. That biases our infant mortality rate substantially upward compared with others. One study in Philadelphia concluded that the overstatement was 40 percent.

American doctors also go to greater lengths resuscitating very premature babies who are not breathing when they are delivered. This also means that babies at very high risk are counted as live births here, but not in many other countries, increasing our infant mortality rate as well as inflating our costs by increasing neonatal care needs.

Infant mortality also reflects many factors apart from health care provision, including mother’s age, obesity, drug use and other lifestyle factors, as well as babies’ gestational age at birth, all of which worsen American results.

The US has the highest proportion of preterm and low-birth-weight babies, which comprise a large fraction of infant deaths, of any developed country. For example, teenage mothers (nearly three times more common in the US than Canada and seven times more than in Sweden and Japan) are far more likely to have low-birth-weight babies.

If the US birth-weight distribution had been the same as for Canada, a study found that, by itself, would lower American infant mortality below Canada's. A study of gestational ages found that if that distribution had been the same in the US as Sweden, it would cut our infant mortality rate one-third, making us equal to France.

https://mises.org/wire/infant-mortality-misleading-statistic-international-comparisons

Gary Galles CV:

https://seaver.pepperdine.edu/academics/faculty/gary-galles/

 

[spectra3279]

A friend of mine is on epclusa ( pardon the spelling). Here in the US, it's about 1k a pill. In India its 4 dollars a pill.

Let that sink in

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

[was thatguy]

On a side note, I’ve got about 80% of my household into storage. Junk guys coming today to haul off a load. Notice to vacate has been given for the 31st.
Boat is stored.
I’m tired.

 

[SNiC Jet]

The only entities receiving record profits are insurance companies and cash-for-care doctors performing elective surgeries.

Bullshit! Only ignorance regarding the insurance industry would promote such a misleading statement...please post your sources.

The AHA data show community hospital profits have risen 43% since 2011, when they were $53.2 billion.

Seven of the 10 most-profitable hospitals in the United States are nonprofit hospitals, each earning more than $160 million from patient care services, according to a study in Health Affairs.

 

[Old Texan]

Bullshit! Only ignorance regarding the insurance industry would promote such a misleading statement...please post your sources.

The AHA data show community hospital profits have risen 43% since 2011, when they were $53.2 billion.

Seven of the 10 most-profitable hospitals in the United States are nonprofit hospitals, each earning more than $160 million from patient care services, according to a study in Health Affairs.

He'll never change.....False news "facts" allow him to justify his voting habits of, pull the D lever regardless the idiot the action enables

 

[RodnJen]

Bullshit! Only ignorance regarding the insurance industry would promote such a misleading statement...please post your sources.

The AHA data show community hospital profits have risen 43% since 2011, when they were $53.2 billion.

Seven of the 10 most-profitable hospitals in the United States are nonprofit hospitals, each earning more than $160 million from patient care services, according to a study in Health Affairs.

You have heard of HMO’s and managed care? Non profit hospitals, really?

 

[SNiC Jet]

You have heard of HMO’s and managed care? Non profit hospitals, really?

Of course I have.....So, whats your point?

I have shown you the incredible/increasing profits Hospitals are racking in....yes, even the so-called Non For Profits......and you blame the insurance companies

 

[mjc]

It

Of course I have.....So, whats your point?

I have shown you the incredible/increasing profits Hospitals are racking in....yes, even the so-called Non For Profits......and you blame the insurance companies

Has to be from them Medicare pays less than 40% of the bill.

 

[squeezer]

Sqeezer, You can spin this any way you want. Reasoning with liberals is like trying to teach Bill Clinton about DNA and the fact that no matter what he says, his dick was in not in his pants where he said it was. Yes our health care system is in need of an overhaul but that is not what this is about. It's about taking care of our own. My son is not asking for a hand out. He will pay for his medical just like all the other employed Americans who cannot afford insurance. But if the Government is going to stick it to tax payers it should be for it's own people. Not a bunch of illegal pond jumpers who break our laws.

Its unfortunate that stating facts about cost and availability of healthcare is considered spin...

I am 100% about taking care of our own. I am also as fiscally responsible as anybody on this site and probably more so than most. The reality is we have a healthcare system, (Hospitals/doctors/nurses/reserchers/etc) that is 2nd to none in the world. We also have a delivery system that is fundamentally flawed. The idea that we have insurance providers that are the conduit for care is flat out absurd. Health care is not some unknown event that we need to insure against. It is in fact fairly predictable, particularly the most costly aspects of it. It is also vastly less expensive to maintain health than it is to recover health. That last concept is the basis of the fiscal argument that everyone in this country should have "free" easy acces to basic healthcare. Doing this lowers the cost to American taxpayers simply because if people dont get preventative care they WILL get emergency care. That emergency care is orders of magnitude more costly and guaranteed by law.

The choice is basically this:

Would you rather spend $200 to treat a cold or $40000 to treat pneumonia? You and I are going to pay for one or the other like it or not...