Boat content!!! Need thoughts and suggestions. Metal in oil filter

[HNL2LHC]

Bummer to see what you are faced with. Best to you and hope that the road ahead is not too bumpy!!!! Please keep us updated.

 

[brgrcru]

Sorry for that to happen
Looks like bearings.
Been there a few times .

FYI
That’s why some of us have two boats . Or three .

 

[MPHSystems]

Sorry for that to happen
Looks like bearings.
Been there a few times .

FYI
That’s why some of us have two boats . Or three .

So you can have 3X the bearings to go out?

 

[MPHSystems]

Boy do I know this feeling. Too many times. I spent all last summer on the dock. Couldn’t get hard parts to build My engine, it took 10 months to get a rotating assembly because of Covid.

I started on my SU turbo LAST February. Hopefully it’s done for NEXT October. I won’t even post how much money I have into that VW bug engine but its more than I paid for my 240.


Good news for OP is if his crank and rods are OK, it shouldn’t be too bad. It’s going to cost more than a tank of gas but at least he din’t window the case.

 

[Runs2rch]

I started on my SU turbo LAST February. Hopefully it’s done for NEXT October. I won’t even post how much money I have into that VW bug engine but its more than I paid for my 240.


Good news for OP is if his crank and rods are OK, it shouldn’t be too bad. It’s going to cost more than a tank of gas but at least he din’t window the case.

Your 24 was that cheap?! Hahaha!

 

[MPHSystems]

Your 24 was that cheap?! Hahaha!

No….. the VW bug engine was that expensive.


Here’s a sneak Preview.

 

[rrrr]

Yeah, it's a little bit beyond that.

I agree. Sending Blackstone a sample is like calling a painter to repair your house after it burns to the ground.

The motor has suffered a catastrophic failure. There's little or no oil pressure, and the filter has collected all one needs to know. I wouldn't spend five minutes or five bucks doing any diagnostic work. It's time to call Teague to get a slot and pull the motor while waiting.

 

[Jetdriver951]

I might have missed this but how many hrs were on the bottom end?

Engine roughly has 105 hrs on it.

 

[MPHSystems]

Engine roughly has 105 hrs on it.

Well, fuck.


yea, you definitely want to find out what the hell caused this.

Good news is that you shut er down and it didn’t come apart. It’s going to hurt but not as bad as it could have.

 

[Runs2rch]

No….. the VW bug engine was that expensive.


Here’s a sneak Preview.

So like 6500?

 

[MPHSystems]

So like 6500?

That’s exactly how much I paid Adam Wik for labor, bearings pistons and barrels on the long block. I supplied most of the parts. case, heads crank and rods. If you count the M130, PDM32, dash, Turbo, intake and exhaust, I’m over $30K. That Bergman 110A alternator kit and shroud was almost $2k.

 

[RiverDave]

Did you just buy this and this happened?

 

[mash on it]

Needs an oil change.








Everything that was touched by oil, change it.

Dan'l

 

[tx-19]

not necessarily. my engine ate the distributor gear and it went from running just fine to shutting off completely in a matter of seconds.

I feel like the chunks in his oil filter are little to big for bearing material

 

[Jetdriver951]

Did you just buy this and this happened?

Bought it last year. Ran it about 6 times not one issue. Not upset it's only money. With all the crazy shit going on in this world just happy that my family and I are all healthy and happy. Life it too short to be upset. She will get fixed no doubt. Told my almost 3 year old that the boat is sick today and will have to go to the doctors to get better. The look on her face was heart breaking. So we looked at the ads that came in the mail and told me she liked the pick one.

Did you just buy this and this happened?

 

[Jetdriver951]

I feel like the chunks in his oil filter are little to big for bearing material

I will keep everyone posted on what was found. Taking it to R&D marine in a few days.

 

[rrrr]

I feel like the chunks in his oil filter are little to big for bearing material

There isn't anything else in the engine made with copper, and the absence of oil pressure makes it obvious that's what it is.

 

[blue wonder]

There isn't anything else in the engine made with copper, and the absence of oil pressure makes it obvious that's what it is.

Bronze distributor gear

 

[blue wonder]

I will keep everyone posted on what was found. Taking it to R&D marine in a few days.

Before you take it there do yourself a favor and pull the distributor out, looks like a gear failure to me

 

[Jetdriver951]

Before you take it there do yourself a favor and pull the distributor out, looks like a gear failure to me

I will definitely to that. Thank you for the suggestion.

 

[blue wonder]

I will definitely to that. Thank you for the suggestion.

Post a pic of it, I’m thinking there’s gonna be quite a bit missing

 

[lbhsbz]

Before you take it there do yourself a favor and pull the distributor out, looks like a gear failure to me

That wouldn't account for the gradual loss of oil pressure though....unless the filter went into bypass, and clogged up the crank, but the filter should be able to hold a distributor gear I'd think.

 

[blue wonder]

That wouldn't account for the gradual loss of oil pressure though....unless the filter went into bypass, and clogged up the crank, but the filter should be able to hold a distributor gear I'd think.

It would if the gear failed so bad it stopped driving the oil pump shaft

 

[Your ad here]

That wouldn't account for the gradual loss of oil pressure though....unless the filter went into bypass, and clogged up the crank, but the filter should be able to hold a distributor gear I'd think.

I was thinking that to. Should be full oil pressure until the gear goes. If it was a gradual loss the timing should have gone out and shut the engine off or at least make it run shitty.

 

[jetboatperformance]

Anything in the engine thats degrading to the point of generating that much debris suggests a significant failure in process < I say metal particles instantly become pervasive thruout like "sneezing in a crowded theater" , time to teardwon to the point of failure sorry for your problems

 

[lbhsbz]

It would if the gear failed so bad it stopped driving the oil pump shaft

One would think the distributor would stop turning which makes oil pressure kinda irrelevant at that point. The oil pump shaft engages on the bottom of the distributor shaft...not the gear

Edit: Unless the oil pump drive shaft failed somehow and was effectively driven by friction and slipping while putting a greater load on the distributor gear causing that to go to hell...but that's a stretch.

 

[Your ad here]

Wild guess as I'm not to educated on engines but is it possible a cam bearing broke to pieces and that what the chunks are from and the gradual loss of oil pressure.

 

[blue wonder]

One would think the distributor would stop turning which makes oil pressure kinda irrelevant at that point. The oil pump shaft engages on the bottom of the distributor shaft...not the gear

Edit: Unless the oil pump drive shaft failed somehow and was effectively driven by friction and slipping while putting a greater load on the distributor gear causing that to go to hell...but that's a stretch.

Yes thank you I know how a oiling system works on a BBC…If the distributor gear started failing and the chucks started binding up the oil pump it could happen, especially if the pickup fell off (seen it several times)

 

[Teague_JR]

The fact that its not rod knocking and its also not able to make oil pressure makes me bet main bearing, maybe even broken crank at a main journal.

Also, if you ever have debris in your pan and you pull the motor to diagnose, drop the pan prior to flipping the motor over.... pro tip.

 

[timstoy]

One would think the distributor would stop turning which makes oil pressure kinda irrelevant at that point. The oil pump shaft engages on the bottom of the distributor shaft...not the gear

Edit: Unless the oil pump drive shaft failed somehow and was effectively driven by friction and slipping while putting a greater load on the distributor gear causing that to go to hell...but that's a stretch.

The distributor gear drIves the oil pump shaft. The gear is attached to the oil pump shaft with a roll pin. Even with a bronze gear and it did strip all the teeth on the gear you still need to pull the engine. The bronze material will still destroy the bearings. As you stated the oil pump pickup could have broken off also. Regardless the motor needs to come out and inspected.

 

[lbhsbz]

The distributor gear drIves the oil pump shaft. The gear is attached to the oil pump shaft with a roll pin. Even with a bronze gear and it did strip all the teeth on the gear you still need to pull the engine. The bronze material will still destroy the bearings. As you stated the oil pump pickup could have broken off also. Regardless the motor needs to come out and inspected.

no it doesn't, the tang is on the distributor shaft.

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The distributor gear drives the distributor shaft, the distributor shaft drives the oil pump drive shaft.

A gear failure cannot cause the oil pump to stop turning if the gear is still good enough to run the engine.

 

[timstoy]

no it doesn't, the tang is on the distributor shaft.

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The distributor gear drives the distributor shaft, the distributor shaft drives the oil pump drive shaft.

A gear failure cannot cause the oil pump to stop turning if the gear is still good enough to run the engine.

The oil pump shaft tang engages the oil pump the distributor gear is pinned to the oil pump shaft witch engages the cam gear. If the teeth shear off the distributor gear the distributor quits turning resulting in loss of oil pressure and loss of ignition. With that much metal in the oil the rod and main are done and hopefully he can save the crank. If the engine was still running and the oil pressure was dropping it’s not the distributor gear

 

[wzuber]

The oil pump shaft tang engages the oil pump the distributor gear is pinned to the oil pump shaft witch engages the cam gear. If the teeth shear off the distributor gear the distributor quits turning resulting in loss of oil pressure and loss of ignition.

Roll pin.....
As evidinced by the hole in the shaft just above the tang in the pic shown.
Oddly enoughy.........

 

[Orange Juice]

Problem….no oil pressure.
Symptom…..loss of oil pressure.
Result….big metal parts ground into small small pieces of metal.
Solution, fix oil pressure problem. Then fix worn parts.

 

[Teague_JR]

no it doesn't, the tang is on the distributor shaft.

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The distributor gear drives the distributor shaft, the distributor shaft drives the oil pump drive shaft.

A gear failure cannot cause the oil pump to stop turning if the gear is still good enough to run the engine.

Yeah that material is not a bronze gear going away. As the teeth wear it’s teeny tiny little shavings. You’ll just notice the timing retarding itself. When the teeth get too thin the oil pump load will cause the cam to blow a few of them off in one spot and the distributor will stop turning and the motor will shut off immediately… distributor gear issue cannot cause an oil pressure issue. That is, unless the engine not running is your oil pressure issue.

The gear drives the distributor and the oil pump simultaneously. The gear is attached to the distributor shaft via roll pin and the oil pump drive shaft mates to that shaft

Not sure why it needs to be an argument?

 

[timstoy]

Yeah that material is not a bronze gear going away. As the teeth wear it’s teeny tiny little shavings. You’ll just notice the timing retarding itself. When the teeth get too thin the oil pump load will cause the cam to blow a few of them off in one spot and the distributor will stop turning and the motor will shut off immediately… distributor gear issue cannot cause an oil pressure issue. That is, unless the engine not running is your oil pressure issue.

The gear drives the distributor and the oil pump simultaneously. The gear is attached to the distributor shaft via roll pin and the oil pump drive shaft mates to that shaft

Not sure why it needs to be an argument?

No argument from me. I agree with you on a spun main bearing probably started the engine failure then took out the rest of the bearings. Too much metal in the filter for a distributor gear failure in my opinion. Your tip on removing the oil pan is spot on, I don’t know why people even think of flipping the motor to take the oil pan off. Just makes a huge mess, plus you can see all the carnage that dropped to the bottom of the oil pan when you take the pan off correctly. As you know once you see the oil pressure gauge dropping to zero it is usually too late. My first check would be to check the oil level. I assume the motor has a aftermarket high capacity oil pan but I’ve seen people run motors out of oil. Regardless the motor has to come out, tore down and diagnosed to find what caused the oil pressure failure.

 

[Teague_JR]

No argument from me. I agree with you on a spun main bearing probably started the engine failure then took out the rest of the bearings. Too much metal in the filter for a distributor gear failure in my opinion. Your tip on removing the oil pan is spot on, I don’t know why people even think of flipping the motor to take the oil pan off. Just makes a huge mess, plus you can see all the carnage that dropped to the bottom of the oil pan when you take the pan off correctly. As you know once you see the oil pressure gauge dropping to zero it is usually too late. My first check would be to check the oil level. I assume the motor has a aftermarket high capacity oil pan but I’ve seen people run motors out of oil. Regardless the motor has to come out, tore down and diagnosed to find what caused the oil pressure failure.

you know Ive caught two different supercharged engines totally lose oil pressure at speed from broken drive shafts: one at 6000 rpm and the oil pressure was falling down passing 20 psi, by the time I got it off plane and shut down zero pressure... no engine damage. The other was running at 4500 with no pressure for maybe 20-30 seconds, it scuffed one rod bearing but didnt spin it, and scuffed a couple exhaust pushrod tips. Both of these engines had billet cranks and properly toleranced clevite bearings but it was surprising that they didnt just totally scuff everywhere running under good load and boost...

 

[bonesfab]

you know Ive caught two different supercharged engines totally lose oil pressure at speed from broken drive shafts: one at 6000 rpm and the oil pressure was falling down passing 20 psi, by the time I got it off plane and shut down zero pressure... no engine damage. The other was running at 4500 with no pressure for maybe 20-30 seconds, it scuffed one rod bearing but didnt spin it, and scuffed a couple exhaust pushrod tips. Both of these engines had billet cranks and properly toleranced clevite bearings but it was surprising that they didnt just totally scuff everywhere running under good load and boost...

Good oil and proper clearances do wonders.

 

[DaveH]

Engine roughly has 105 hrs on it.

or so the seller says. and with 250hp worth of N20....bet that's rod bearing.

 

[Uncle Dave]

For everyone saying Fram is junk, you need to watch the Engine Masters episode about oil filters. After watching it, I really don’t think it matters to be honest.
View attachment 1106489

A few of the microns rating on here are total bullshit and they are missing the % in the capture rate essentially rendering this part meaningless.

For example - 95% @ 20 microns vs 99% at 20 microns.

The is no such thing as a full flow single stage 10 micron filter like the K&N is being represented as.

 

[timstoy]

or so the seller says. and with 250hp worth of N20....bet that's rod bearing.

This is another problem, did Teague actually build the motor?, are the hours on the motor correct? Receipts help but I’ve seen several motors patched together to sell the boat more than once.

 

[lbhsbz]

Yeah that material is not a bronze gear going away. As the teeth wear it’s teeny tiny little shavings. You’ll just notice the timing retarding itself. When the teeth get too thin the oil pump load will cause the cam to blow a few of them off in one spot and the distributor will stop turning and the motor will shut off immediately… distributor gear issue cannot cause an oil pressure issue. That is, unless the engine not running is your oil pressure issue.

The gear drives the distributor and the oil pump simultaneously. The gear is attached to the distributor shaft via roll pin and the oil pump drive shaft mates to that shaft

Not sure why it needs to be an argument?

My point was that folks were looking at the debris and thinking it was a distributor gear failure. A distributor gear failure CANNOT result in a loss of oil pressure while the gear is good enough to turn the distributor. If the distributor is turning, the tang that drives the oil pump is turning...period.

There is no circumstance where the gear can be worn to a point where the distributor will still turn but the oil pump won't. Only an oil pump driveshaft failure or distributor shaft tang failure can cause that, but it would be a good trick if either one of those circumstances could result in a gradual loss of oil pressure.

Was trying not to get the OP's hopes up that he could pin on a new gear and be done with it.

 

[Jetdriver951]

Engine is out and I will keep everyone posted.

 

[MK1MOD0]

Hoping for no major parts failures for ya. Fingers crossed.

 

[MPHSystems]

Engine is out and I will keep everyone posted. View attachment 1107901 View attachment 1107902

you should know shortly, either way, you will have a fresh engine and just be able to enjoy your time on the water

 

[Deangang]

Looks like a mag , so it’s very possible .

Post a pic of it, I’m thinking there’s gonna be quite a bit missing

 

[DaveH]

update?

 

[Jetdriver951]

update?

Well she floats!!! A lot of upgrades!! New carbs, new crank, new cam, new upgraded ignition, new heads, and rebuilt pump just to name a few. Drop the boat in the water and cranked her up. Such a great sound and everyone at the dock stopped to see what the hell just started up!! I don’t even have to tell you how happy I am with the final product. She is running a little rich right now, but going to put a few hours on the motor then take it in for a quick valve adjustment if needed. Thank you Harald at R&D marine for your hard work.

 

[MPHSystems]

Careful on the too rich, The problem is un-burnt fuel can make it into the oil and break it down faster. Go have fun with the boat, it's not going to be a problem overnight but you're gonna want to do an oil change sooner rather than later

 

[Outdrive1]

@obnoxious001