Boat Build - Profit

[Sunset]

I thought about getting into boat building in 2004 and worked for two boat builders to learn the in and outs of custom boat manufacturing and learned fast to stay away . To take 10% down and build a custom boat and to get balance at end ? Too much Larbor and subcontractors . The builders I worked for would prefer to put stock engines in builds same profits less hassle .They make profit off of extras and financing and service . On there discount lines they would sub out rigging and I saw you get what you pay for.
I had long conversations with Dennis at Carrera and Cliff at Caliber and Godfather at eliminator not a lot of upside verse overhead.
Boat building is cyclic business .
The people making money in the boat industry are people like Sun County marine or the large pontoon dealers or boat web sites that advertise.
There not a lot of boat builders that retired rich .

 

[FreeBird236]

Just out of curiosity what would make Nordics 28ss with twin 400s (225kish at the last boat show) worthy around 100k less then eliminators 27 Daytona with twin 400s (330k at the last boat show)? They booth are at the top of the custom boat market as far as popularity and quality, and as far as overhead I’m sure they are close Nordic maybe a little more. So why the 100k difference?

I would say you can do better than 330k for the Eliminator, and you need to be comparing exactly the same options, it doesn't take much in options to add 50 or 60 thousand to boats of that quality.

 

[Done-it-again]

My guess would be California vs Arizona construction and Eliminators production volume = more bodies = higher overhead. Eliminator has a cross country following, Nordic is building that. Performance costs money. Anyone can drop a supercharged 502 GM block in a canoe and hit 100 mph. Putting 5 people in a boat capable of 130 that rides like a lubed up ultra thick condom takes a bit more work and people are willing to pay for that.

I can drop a big blower motor in a S-10 and lay down a 11 second quarter mile. Or I can drive a Ferrari at Laguna Seca. Both are fun but one is a thrill ride the other changes the way you think about cars.

You think Eliminator produces more boats than Nordic now? I'm not sure and if I had to make a guess Nordic is producing more at this time. Yes it cost more to do business in CA but not that much more, workers comp is slightly different but that depends on you mod rate as well, insurance is insurance no matter were. I would think employee expenses runs about the same, as you would need to bring in talent in to LHC as the labor pool is not the same.

It comes down to material cost and who has that streamlined to achieve the best price and still make a xx% profit on the sale they require. It was mention the speedster windshield is 10k alone, that some $$$$ and could it be had for a better cost? I think Nordic is more streamlined in manufacturing and is in to building more boats with lower cost than eliminator building less with higher cost.

Note: this is not a Eliminator vs Nordic debate.

 

[DrunkenSailor]

You think Eliminator produces more boats than Nordic now? I'm not sure and if I had to make a guess Nordic is producing more at this time. Yes it cost more to do business in CA but not that much more, workers comp is slightly different but that depends on you mod rate as well, insurance is insurance no matter were. I would think employee expenses runs about the same, as you would need to bring in talent in to LHC as the labor pool is not the same.

It comes down to material cost and who has that streamlined to achieve the best price and still make a xx% profit on the sale they require. It was mention the speedster windshield is 10k alone, that some $$$$ and could it be had for a better cost? I think Nordic is more streamlined in manufacturing and is in to building more boats with lower cost than eliminator building less with higher cost.

Note: this is not a Eliminator vs Nordic debate.

I don't know who is producing more just basing it off of what I see on here. Seems like Eliminator is turning out more just based on the build threads. Could be that Eliminator has a dedicated marketing guy and Nordic doesn't. They are all busy which overall is good for the industry. They are both building a kick ass product. You make good points. I have to think that labor costs in Havasu have to be less than in Mira Loma but I definitely could be wrong. I know that taxes are more here than in AZ. 10k for a windshield is a little steep lol.

 

[DRYHEAT]

I can’t help but think that is a hell of a lot cheaper building a boat in Arizona then it is in California when you factor in wages, taxes, permits etc. etc.
I’ve known a few guys over the years here in Havasu working in the business, and while they might be getting by and doing OK none of them are living a Baller lifestyle. There might be a select few that are doing extremely well, but that’s the exception not the rule. Plain and simple it’s a hard way to make a living and more of a labor of love than anything else.

 

[HBCraig]

Just an opinion here, but I would guess there is less % of profit on larger and more expensive builds. As many of you know I am in the crane business. Quality and the least amount of "down time" is worth a ton to most of my customers. The ones that are after the cheapest possible machine down always save money in the long run. Some do though. I know that "down time" isnt an issue as much for recreational boating, but I can tell you from my experience, I will take my boat to a reputable shop to perform necessary repairs to my boat if i know the work is done the 1st time and done correctly. Paying more for that kind of service isnt even an issue.

 

[575cat]

Some still using wood some not , Elim vs Nordic .

 

[FreeBird236]

Some still using wood some not , Elim vs Nordic .

 

[bowtiejunkie]

I know much less than you guys about customer boat builders, but since none of the custom boat builders are public, it's only a guess what their gross margin's are.

For a different flavor, you could compare the likes of Malibu Boats and MasterCraft boats, which are both public companies. Their gross margins (on company wide revenue) are >25% but <30%. Brunswick Corporation (Mercury Marine parent) is in that range as well, but there's a lot of non-marine business revenue & COGS. Whether any of these breakdown their financials by product line, I don't know. These three companies have much better economy of scale, efficient production building techniques, etc than a custom builder. They also have dealer networks. At the dealer level, I've read that knocking 20-30% off MSRP of a new wake/surf boat gets you a nice deal.

It would seem a custom builder's gross margin would be higher, but their COGS probably eats away at the Gross Revenue.

It's an interesting discussion.

 

[Cdog]

I’m friends & race with the guy that owns Tige boats. I’ll ask him the next time I see him.

 

[batterup]

You think Eliminator produces more boats than Nordic now? I'm not sure and if I had to make a guess Nordic is producing more at this time. Yes it cost more to do business in CA but not that much more, workers comp is slightly different but that depends on you mod rate as well, insurance is insurance no matter were. I would think employee expenses runs about the same, as you would need to bring in talent in to LHC as the labor pool is not the same.

It comes down to material cost and who has that streamlined to achieve the best price and still make a xx% profit on the sale they require. It was mention the speedster windshield is 10k alone, that some $$$$ and could it be had for a better cost? I think Nordic is more streamlined in manufacturing and is in to building more boats with lower cost than eliminator building less with higher cost.

Note: this is not a Eliminator vs Nordic debate.

Good point regarding their insurance. For curiosity, I looked at Eliminator's ex-mod and it's .83, so they appear to have their safety and work comp cost under control.

 

[Done-it-again]

Good point regarding their insurance. For curiosity, I looked at Eliminator's ex-mod and it's .83, so they appear to have their safety and work comp cost under control.

I know workers comp rates change per state and CA has the highest base (or close to the highest). I'm not sure the base rate difference between Az and CA is, but the mod does travel with you.

I'm still learning all of this as I'm partially running fam business now and its a lot to take in, along with health insurance. But what I'm blown away with is how much $$$ it does take to run a business and all the overhead (with manufacturing, installations, out of state travel). Its crazy what you need to make just to brake even and hopefully towards the end of the year you are above that for some profit.

 

[batterup]

I know workers comp rates change per state and CA has the highest base (or close to the highest). I'm not sure the base rate difference between Az and CA is, but the mod does travel with you.

I'm still learning all of this as I'm partially running fam business now and its a lot to take in, along with health insurance. But what I'm blown away with is how much $$$ it does take to run a business and all the overhead (with manufacturing, installations, out of state travel). Its crazy what you need to make just to brake even and hopefully towards the end of the year you are above that for some profit.

Out of more curiosity, I looked at the pure premium base rates for the boat builders class code. Arizona is $5.50 and California is $4.52, so Arizona is actually higher than CA. BTW - I speak at conferences across the nation on ex-mods and work comp, so if you ever have any questions, please feel free to use me as a resource. Best of luck with your family business!

 

[J.P.]

I would think to successfully operate any custom boat building business with full time employees you would need a gross profit margin per boat of 50% that's a 2.0 mark up on all labor and material/everything it takes to get it ready to hand the keys to the customer. At the end of the year its a 15-22 % net profit business. So if they did 5mil in sales that would be around 750K-1.1 million in profit.

 

[G. Faulk]

I thought about getting into boat building in 2004 and worked for two boat builders to learn the in and outs of custom boat manufacturing and learned fast to stay away . To take 10% down and build a custom boat and to get balance at end ? Too much Larbor and subcontractors . The builders I worked for would prefer to put stock engines in builds same profits less hassle .They make profit off of extras and financing and service . On there discount lines they would sub out rigging and I saw you get what you pay for.
I had long conversations with Dennis at Carrera and Cliff at Caliber and Godfather at eliminator not a lot of upside verse overhead.
Boat building is cyclic business .
The people making money in the boat industry are people like Sun County marine or the large pontoon dealers or boat web sites that advertise.
There not a lot of boat builders that retired rich .

100%, if your not doing everything less the trailer in house I would think your barely making a living.

With that said and with the economy cranking, I know for a fact some of the FL builders especially high end CC's making a very pretty penny right now selling boats. There so busy and a year out they charge full retail and getting it all day long. When you get into most high performance boats and even the higher end CC's its very seldom there's financing its all cash. My last boat purchase I put half down on a 300k purchase and my salesmen said I was the first to finance a boat from him in the last year. What I hear from friends today in this type of higher end boat sales its still the same, not a lot of financing. I just was looking at replacing what I have, a boat that cost me 300k 5 years ago, now cost 400k to replace. No fing way in 5 years it went up 100k. I get it but I can almost guarantee that if they were slow I'd get that boat for 325K all day long. Look at used boat pricing, its off the charts. That's why mines going up for sale replacing or not.

A bit more perspective, friends I know that do boat brokerage in FL, on a 250k sale if they aren't making 20K they don't even touch it. There the people making the $.

In the boat business it seems when the iron's hot they charge top dollar which again I get, when it aint ya charge what ya can to make it. It seems like Its a full on crap shoot business and thats why I have A ton of respect for Bob Leach. That guys been through the ringer and he's still doing well or making it selling boats.

A reminder to any of you boat builders checking in here, your raining days are coming and the smart people that hold on to there money and come to you on your raining days, don't be all pissed off when we grind your ass off to make a sale, pay back can be a bitch...

 

[WATERDOG]

Precise financials have never been a strength of the custom performance boat manufacturing industry. Conservatively, probably 5% or less of the builders today have a good handle on what it really costs them to produce a boat.

I really doubt that.

 

[WATERDOG]

I am not an expert, but my family was in the boat business since I was in diapers. Mostly large sail boats ( Shock, Cal. , Ranger, Islander Yachts, De Fever motor yachts etc. ) I worked at Baker, Sleek Craft ( Santa Fee Springs ) Conquest in Havasu for Bruce and Candy. ( great people ) Did paint work for Fiberglass Concepts ( who became Advantage Boats ) Worked at Eliminator for Tom Phillips. Ken Brown at the original Magic Boats. ( smartest man I have met regarding cost analysis per part and final cost , he should have dominated the custom west coast market ) I am in no way an expert, or know it all. The margin is not that big. It is a tough business. When I was a teenager I worked for Duffy Duffield in Costa Mesa making small sailboats , Ron Holder building sailboats ( He designed the Trident deck boat for Froggy ) It is by know means easy. The boating industry is a luxury item.

If my uncle had not passed away form skin cancer I would still be in that industry with people like ( Danny Donahue , best young man ever ) Building boats is awesome and great fun. It just doesn't pencil out for most.

Anyone in the performance boat industry is doing it because it is there passion. At the end of the year if they have made 10 to 15 % net profit I would be surprised .

We lost one of the best in the Marine Industry last week my good friend Steve Mc Elory . Aero Marine etc. The boating community and the V- Drive people have lost a great asset.

What years where you at Sleek in SFS?

 

[Racey]

I really doubt that.

You'd be surprised, BTW twocents is Bob Brown, who has been in the biz for probably 40+ years.... He knows what he is talking about.

 

[Tank]

Just an opinion here, but I would guess there is less % of profit on larger and more expensive builds.

It's actually the exact opposite. At least in the performance arena. Cigarette came out with a 30' about 12 years ago that was a mini version of their 38'. They sold for 150kish, while the 38's were high 3's. Problem is the actual cost (materials) of each boat was nearly identical except the 8' of fiberglass and vinyl. The money is actually better for the larger boats. The new 51' Cigarette sells for 2 mil. Now on the flip side of that Cigarette has some pretty hefty overhead so I don't quite know what they're percentage on boats are and skip was already very well off before buying Cigarette and has continued to grow the brand and continue to expand and make a butt load of money, but they really are an exception to the rule for the most part.

 

[WATERDOG]

I think part of the high costs of boats is that not only do they need a profit but every supplier they have wants to profit too. Not a bad thing. Boats are made out of many diff. parts. If boat part company's can't make a profit they would be gone.

 

[WATERDOG]

You'd be surprised, BTW twocents is Bob Brown, who has been in the biz for probably 40+ years.... He knows what he is talking about.

Of course he does. Love most of his posts

 

[WhatExit?]

I know i make about 10% on 6 figure projects

Gross or net? (I'm guessing net)

Custom boat makers are grossing, or should be, around 40% but their net is a lot less especially if they're manufacturing in Kalifornia

 

[hallett21]

Gross or net? (I'm guessing net)

Custom boat makers are grossing, or should be, around 40% but their net is a lot less especially if they're manufacturing in Kalifornia

I think a lot of people are mixing gross and net. The only profit number I care about is net. 100% gross doesn’t meant much if operating costs eat 90% of that


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[Yellowboat]

Gross or net? (I'm guessing net)

Custom boat makers are grossing, or should be, around 40% but their net is a lot less especially if they're manufacturing in Kalifornia

I only ever care about net. My gross can easily be 50% but my net is generally about 10%.

 

[NicPaus]

I only ever care about net. My gross can easily be 50% but my net is generally about 10%.

With hard money being 10% to borrow why bank a job for only 10%? I am banking 3 currently and without at least 20% net profit not worth the risk. CA $1k down and wait for the rest not worth it for 10%. Prices I am seeing are 50-100% gross mark up with everyone slammed with work.

 

[Yellowboat]

Where Are you getting your hard money from? I get mine at 4%. I am paying off some heavy equipment so that is making my profit margin go down.

 

[NicPaus]

Investors. If you can find 8% here that is good 4% unheard of.

 

[Yellowboat]

I know a few guys that are even lower than me but they have to pay a point or to start it

 

[DrunkenSailor]

Only thing gross matters for is ebitda and borrowing power. 4% hard money is pretty good.

 

[hallett21]

@Yellowboat can you get me 2,000,000 at 4%?

@NicPaus I got a line on hard money at 7%

[emoji16]


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[NicPaus]

@Yellowboat can you get me 2,000,000 at 4%?

@NicPaus I got a line on hard money at 7%

[emoji16]


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I would take a mill at 4% tomorrow!

I need to get some blue prints drawn up. 7% is better than my 7.9% from Wells Fargo. All current projects are for customers. No wonder I have so many headaches Lol. Finished that 1 by Lee st. 3 weeks ago. Just got back from collecting another check. Hopefully next week get final pay 1 month after.

 

[Yellowboat]

I doubt 1 mill at 4, but I did just do 200k at 4. My hard money lender likes me, I pay up with in 60 days, most guys are 6 months out. I always have all my ducks in a row before I even make the call, that plus quick repayment, reasonable time frames and putting my money in too is why I get 4%

If I draw from my lime of credit it's 7.375% + .8 points. Which is why I only r do it once a year just too keep it available. I know some day I will need it, so the time it takes and using it as a tax write-off if it's worth it. My day today credit is Amex, I love the 60-day payment grace period I have on it. It does cost me $900 a year for the privilege though.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

It's actually the exact opposite. At least in the performance arena. Cigarette came out with a 30' about 12 years ago that was a mini version of their 38'. They sold for 150kish, while the 38's were high 3's. Problem is the actual cost (materials) of each boat was nearly identical except the 8' of fiberglass and vinyl. The money is actually better for the larger boats. The new 51' Cigarette sells for 2 mil. Now on the flip side of that Cigarette has some pretty hefty overhead so I don't quite know what they're percentage on boats are and skip was already very well off before buying Cigarette and has continued to grow the brand and continue to expand and make a butt load of money, but they really are an exception to the rule for the most part.

Agreed. This is why very few of any sub 25 foot boats are being made by the large MFGs these days. They have had to raise the prices of smaller boats so high in order to make similar margins to a larger boat.

Case in point - The new Howard 255 is $150k with a 520 and only ~$30k - ~$40k less than a 288 deck.

 

[Gelcoater]

Agreed. This is why very few of any sub 25 foot boats are being made by the large MFGs these days. They have had to raise the prices of smaller boats so high in order to make similar margins to a larger boat.

Case in point - The new Howard 255 is $150k with a 520 and only ~$30k - ~$40k less than a 288 deck.

I dunno?
Shockwave sells the shit out of that 23 deckboat. Tahiti seems to be making quite a few of their little 21.
Lavey’s done a couple of 24s too.

There is still a market for sub 25 foot.
Eliminator has done a 220 and a 230 this past season, another 230 on deck to build, a 21 Daytona to build, and talk of another 220!
I hope they dust off the 19 soon

Sure they build mostly bigger stuff these days, but that smaller market segment seems to be gaining again.
MAGA

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I dunno?
Shockwave sells the shit out of that 23 deckboat. Tahiti seems to be making quite a few of their little 21.
Lavey’s done a couple of 24s too.

There is still a market for sub 25 foot.
Eliminator has done a 220 and a 230 this past season, another 230 on deck to build, a 21 Daytona to build, and talk of another 220!
I hope they dust off the 19 soon

Sure they build mostly bigger stuff these days, but that smaller market segment seems to be gaining again.
MAGA

Completely agreed that there is a market for those boats, but not with “premier builders” Notice all those MFGs you mentioned do not really offer boats in the $200-$300k and beyond space.

 

[WYRD]

U guys are funny

Rich is a relative term....

 

[Gelcoater]

Completely agreed that there is a market for those boats, but not with “premier builders” Notice all those MFGs you mentioned do not really offer boats in the $200-$300k and beyond space.

They don’t?
Not sure about Tahiti, I suppose you’re right there.

@Uncle Dave ?
How much would a 39 Lavey with a pair of 700s pencil out to?
Will 1350s fit it one?

Shockwave has a big twin engine v bottom too, I’m sure is a +300k sticker.

Eliminator has a 36 in production right now getting (2) Merc 1350s, the drivetrain alone on that boat is more than 300k.

The margin is thinner on the small boats but on the other hand they seem to sail through production much faster.
It’s also going to help production overall for everyone building.
The little boats are slipped in between the bigger ones, helps fill gaps while waiting for this or that bigger model mold to be free again.
Win/win

 

[highvoltagehands]

I dunno?
Shockwave sells the shit out of that 23 deckboat. Tahiti seems to be making quite a few of their little 21.
Lavey’s done a couple of 24s too.

There is still a market for sub 25 foot.
Eliminator has done a 220 and a 230 this past season, another 230 on deck to build, a 21 Daytona to build, and talk of another 220!
I hope they dust off the 19 soon

Sure they build mostly bigger stuff these days, but that smaller market segment seems to be gaining again.
MAGA

Curious, Do you think the smaller boat market is gaining because of the growing popularity of OB motor packages? Seems OB’s can be mounted on shorter less expensive hull’s and still have comparable usable space as larger hull boats required for Stern drive engine?

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

They don’t?
Not sure about Tahiti, I suppose you’re right there.

@Uncle Dave ?
How much would a 39 Lavey with a pair of 700s pencil out to?
Will 1350s fit it one?

Shockwave has a big twin engine v bottom too, I’m sure is a +300k sticker.

Eliminator has a 36 in production right now getting (2) Merc 1350s, the drivetrain alone on that boat is more than 300k.

The margin is thinner on the small boats but on the other hand they seem to sail through production much faster.
It’s also going to help production overall for everyone building.
The little boats are slipped in between the bigger ones, helps fill gaps while waiting for this or that bigger model mold to be free again.
Win/win

They don’t?
Not sure about Tahiti, I suppose you’re right there.

@Uncle Dave ?
How much would a 39 Lavey with a pair of 700s pencil out to?
Will 1350s fit it one?

Shockwave has a big twin engine v bottom too, I’m sure is a +300k sticker.

Eliminator has a 36 in production right now getting (2) Merc 1350s, the drivetrain alone on that boat is more than 300k.

The margin is thinner on the small boats but on the other hand they seem to sail through production much faster.
It’s also going to help production overall for everyone building.
The little boats are slipped in between the bigger ones, helps fill gaps while waiting for this or that bigger model mold to be free again.
Win/win

My point was more that they (Shockwave) are not making (or do not seem to be making) a ton of their expensive boats. They seem to be making a lot of $80-$180k boats.

The Nordics, Halletts, Howard’s and Eliminators of the world have moved up market. They largely don’t seem to make many boats under $120k. They are following DCB down that path, because there is more money to be made on more expensive boats.

 

[Uncle Dave]

They don’t?
Not sure about Tahiti, I suppose you’re right there.

@Uncle Dave ?
How much would a 39 Lavey with a pair of 700s pencil out to?
Will 1350s fit it one?

Shockwave has a big twin engine v bottom too, I’m sure is a +300k sticker.

Eliminator has a 36 in production right now getting (2) Merc 1350s, the drivetrain alone on that boat is more than 300k.

The margin is thinner on the small boats but on the other hand they seem to sail through production much faster.
It’s also going to help production overall for everyone building.
The little boats are slipped in between the bigger ones, helps fill gaps while waiting for this or that bigger model mold to be free again.
Win/win

Certain size and construction style combos are almost identical parts and labor wise - and as such the pricing favors the larger one.
a Lavey example would be our 21 and 24. We can't really sell a 21 for much less than a 24 now.

About 500K - W 700's - W/ 1350's in the 700's.

I've been a business person running my own businesses and others that pay me for almost three decades now.
I'm a spreadsheet veteran and would consider my self-having above average business acumen.

Pinning the exact cost to build a custom boat is extremely hard - almost but not quite impossible.

Oh you can figure out the large component costs pretty easy, interior trailer, engine drive, gel coater.....
- right until said materials cross the 2-3 boat boundary. (roll of cloth drums of this or that- bits of this and that color gel)

The hours are the hardest part -because of the "non-linear" way (custom) boats are built and how many different people touch it that have varying price points and skill sets.

Assembly line boats - pretty easy
Custom boats very very hard.

UD

 

[Gelcoater]

Curious, Do you think the smaller boat market is gaining because of the growing popularity of OB motor packages? Seems OB’s can be mounted on shorter less expensive hull’s and still have comparable usable space as larger hull boats required for Stern drive engine?

That’s a great question and from my perspective I’d have to say no. Most I’ve seen have V8 inboard power.
The 22 Eagle on the rigging line at the big E right now has a silver Merc I/O and I hear the 21 Daytona will be an I/O too...and some mention of Teague having something to do with it?!

I’d be curious as I have no idea, how many outboards Shockwave is doing? And on what?
@Greg@ShockwaveBoats ?
I would think that 23 Deckboat with an eggbeater would be a killer package?
Their 29 with a pair of 400s would be pretty bad ass too.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Curious, Do you think the smaller boat market is gaining because of the growing popularity of OB motor packages? Seems OB’s can be mounted on shorter less expensive hull’s and still have comparable usable space as larger hull boats required for Stern drive engine?

A basic "Ben Franklin list" looks like this-

Bunch of reasons -

The new ones are quite good (300/400) and can offer a 5 year warranty - thats a lot of trouble free boating.
Compared to an I/O you can often make more room in the XX feet of boat - that is if the molds allow it. Many have molded fixed engine wells.
Easier to tow- overall lower weight - although the weight is further back which can lead to sway.
Easier to change propshaft depth - If rigged properly can move up down as well as in/ out
"typically" less dollars than I/O per HP not always.
300 certed to run 87 octane

Downsides -

Does the existing mold accommodate it? If designed for an I/O you need extensive mods.
Can only be 400HP per engine. (unless you are running the 7 marines)
Not swimmer friendly - kills your swim platform.
IF it stops running an average guy cant do much more than take the cowling off.
What happens in 5 years? Can it be rebuilt? no long term track record on newer units. What happens in salt?
Average guy cant really mod the engine
sounds lame compared to BBC
Odd problems like friction welded shafts breaking -sure merc will fix it - high dollar prop(s) goes to bottom of lake.
400 requires fairly extensive maintenance.



UD

 

[Headless hula]

A basic "Ben Franklin list" looks like this-

Bunch of reasons -

Does the existing mold accommodate it? If designed for an I/O you need extensive mods.
The new ones are quite good (300/400) and can offer a 5 year warranty - thats a lot of trouble free boating.
Compared to an I/O you can often make more room in the XX feet of boat - that is if the molds allow it. Many have molded fixed engine wells.
Easier to tow- overall lower weight - although the weight is further back which can lead to sway.
Easier to change propshaft depth - If rigged properly can move up down as well as in/ out
"typically" less dollars than I/O per HP not always.
300 certed to run 87 octane

Downsides -

Can only be 400HP per engine. (unless you are running the 7 marines)
Not swimmer friendly - kills your swim platform.
IF it stops running an average guy cant do much more than take the cowling off.
What happens in 5 years? Can it be rebuilt? no long term track record on newer units. What happens in salt?
Average guy cant really mod the engine
sounds lame compared to BBC
Odd problems like friction welded shafts breaking -sure merc will fix it - high dollar prop(s) goes to bottom of lake.
400 requires fairly extensive maintenance.



UD

On your last statement,

What's the "extensive maintenance" on the 400? Oil and spark plugs? Isnt the interval a 100 hours? I'm not being argumentative, just asking. I'm probably purchasing one in the next few months.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Certain size and construction style combos are almost identical parts and labor wise - and as such the pricing favors the larger one.
a Lavey example would be our 21 and 24. We can't really sell a 21 for much less than a 24 now.

About 500K - W 700's - W/ 1350's in the 700's.

I've been a business person running my own businesses and others that pay me for almost three decades now.
I'm a spreadsheet veteran and would consider my self-having above average business acumen.

Pinning the exact cost to build a custom boat is extremely hard - almost but not quite impossible.

Oh you can figure out the large component costs pretty easy, interior trailer, engine drive, gel coater.....
- right until said materials cross the 2-3 boat boundary. (roll of cloth drums of this or that- bits of this and that color gel)

The hours are the hardest part -because of the "non-linear" way (custom) boats are built and how many different people touch it that have varying price points and skill sets.

Assembly line boats - pretty easy
Custom boats very very hard.

UD

Great post.

 

[Dirtbag]

That’s a great question and from my perspective I’d have to say no. Most I’ve seen have V8 inboard power.
The 22 Eagle on the rigging line at the big E right now has a silver Merc I/O and I hear the 21 Daytona will be an I/O too...and some mention of Teague having something to do with it?!

I’d be curious as I have no idea, how many outboards Shockwave is doing? And on what?
@Greg@ShockwaveBoats ?
I would think that 23 Deckboat with an eggbeater would be a killer package?
Their 29 with a pair of 400s would be pretty bad ass too.

So far i believe only 2 eggbeaters on the 22 deck have been sold. one with a 400 and one with a 350

 

[Uncle Dave]

On your last statement,

What's the "extensive maintenance" on the 400? Oil and spark plugs? Isnt the interval a 100 hours? I'm not being argumentative, just asking. I'm probably purchasing one in the next few months.

Its a great engine - 2 things stick out

Belt driven camshaft- (not sure if its an interference engine or not) this has an hour component

Supercharger intercooler (all leak after a while) salt typically kills them...even cupronickel has a finite life - Any supercharged engine with an intercooler has this issue.

UD

 

[DrunkenSailor]

A basic "Ben Franklin list" looks like this-

Bunch of reasons -

The new ones are quite good (300/400) and can offer a 5 year warranty - thats a lot of trouble free boating.
Compared to an I/O you can often make more room in the XX feet of boat - that is if the molds allow it. Many have molded fixed engine wells.
Easier to tow- overall lower weight - although the weight is further back which can lead to sway.
Easier to change propshaft depth - If rigged properly can move up down as well as in/ out
"typically" less dollars than I/O per HP not always.
300 certed to run 87 octane

Downsides -

Does the existing mold accommodate it? If designed for an I/O you need extensive mods.
Can only be 400HP per engine. (unless you are running the 7 marines)
Not swimmer friendly - kills your swim platform.
IF it stops running an average guy cant do much more than take the cowling off.
What happens in 5 years? Can it be rebuilt? no long term track record on newer units. What happens in salt?
Average guy cant really mod the engine
sounds lame compared to BBC
Odd problems like friction welded shafts breaking -sure merc will fix it - high dollar prop(s) goes to bottom of lake.
400 requires fairly extensive maintenance.



UD

I have never had any issue running my outboard in salt. True I have seen my fair share of corrosion on outdrives and lowers at the docks but never on my boat and mine was on a lift most of its life but always flushed and washed after every use. Would you choose a closed cooled blue motor over a 400R if you were running primarily in salt? I know you can get more power out of the inboard but when Merc releases their new line of v8 based performance outboards I gotta think that both $$$ and durability the outboard is gonna be the winner. My 250xs was bulletproof but that was a completely different platform from the new 4 stroke v8's.

I guess my ultimate question is do the supercharged outboards have issues running salt water? Any insight would be appreciated.

 

[Uncle Dave]

I wouldn't say outboards have any more issues in general than I/O's in salt water.

If its got an intercooler on it - you've got an item thats going to need to be replaced at some point.
IF it leaks - your engine is toast. Salt water will accelerate that replacement time.

On my own stuff I personally don't like dealing with blowers - between a bilge full of belt dust to the extra plumbing and filters to make sure it doesnt get plugged up w sand - and water routing to and from it.

Another problem is the the odd bad batch of gas you get at the back end of a 100 mile long lake can be problematic - 400 is min 89 recommended 91.

Lots of lakes only have 87 available. I know this because my Ilmor 710 also wants 91.

Id rather have a bigger displacement naturally aspirated engine and Ill pay more for that to avoid the windmills - but that is my personal preference.

On my buddies boat - bring it on!

UD

 

[Uncle Dave]

looks like the 400 has a chain driven cam (thumbs up) unless the guides go should be a lifetime part.

My bad on that I read a few issues about versos jumping time but they weren't 400's.

At some point the verados got a redesign so the new stuff is better than the old stuff.

UD

 

[Shlbyntro]

I wouldn't say outboards have any more issues in general than I/O's in salt water.

If its got an intercooler on it - you've got an item thats going to need to be replaced at some point.
IF it leaks - your engine is toast. Salt water will accelerate that replacement time.

On my own stuff I personally don't like dealing with blowers - between a bilge full of belt dust to the extra plumbing and filters to make sure it doesnt get plugged up w sand - and water routing to and from it.

Another problem is the the odd bad batch of gas you get at the back end of a 100 mile long lake can be problematic - 400 is min 89 recommended 91.

Lots of lakes only have 87 available. I know this because my Ilmor 710 also wants 91.

Id rather have a bigger displacement naturally aspirated engine and Ill pay more for that to avoid the windmills - but that is my personal preference.

On my buddies boat - bring it on!

UD

Yes there is much to be said about the old time saying, "There's no replacement for displacement"

And it's not just talking about performance but also reliability. At a certain point, you have to ask yourself the stresses that the small displacement powerhead of that 400hp outboard are under to make that kind of power vs let's just say a Merc 525efi motor that is 502ci.

That little outboard is high strung as fuck and sprinting to be making that kind of power where as the 525 is more so at just kind of a light jog.

I much rather have the lazy big block than the strung out outboard just for the sheer fact of maintenance costs and dependability. Fresh water or salt.

Imo the only good thing about a large outboard is deck space.