Any inmates with CNC access want to machine me a handful of parts?

[Shlbyntro]

basic jist is I need to machine some custom hubcentric rings to fit between my hubs and my wheels on this offroad truck Im working on to help keep the wheels from moving around and beating up themselves and the studs. @lbhsbz s idea but Im thinking hes on the right track.

Its a paying job, PM me for details if youre interested. Im going to want 6 of them made.

TIA
Breck

 

[lenmann]

@Toolman

Great guy, does amazing work and is easy to work with.

 

[lbhsbz]

What the OD/OD and thickness you need? Grab some drill bits and set them on the hub/pilot transition to get an idea of the radius that needs to be cleared with a chamfer.

I probably have a chunk of stock in the bin I could use to make them.

 

[Shlbyntro]

Ill draw up a rough diagram tonight for you guys.

thx

 

[RiverDave]

How many do you want? I might make ‘em

 

[Shlbyntro]

How many do you want? I might make ‘em

im looking to have 6 made. a full set plus 2 spares

 

[Ace in the Hole]

How many do you want? I might make ‘em

He’ll be in havasu in late October fyi @Shlbyntro

 

[welldigger00]

025 is another great choice. He’s in the off-road game as well.

 

[Shlbyntro]

Heres what Im looking for. These are exact measurements. Im sure there are some real world tolerances that need to be factored in for the hub and pilot measurements.

please forgive me if not to scale, this is what I was working with for stenciles.

 

[OLDRAAT]

Add the bolt circle dia to assist

 

[Shlbyntro]

Add the bolt circle dia to assist

its there

 

[HNL2LHC]

Add the bolt circle dia to assist

 

[DarkHorseRacing]

View attachment 1158647

Doesn’t he mean the diameter of the circle through the center of all the bolt holes around the hub?

 

[Shlbyntro]

Doesn’t he mean the diameter of the circle through the center of all the bolt holes around the hub?

also there

 

[DarkHorseRacing]

also there

Yup see it now. 5 x 5.50.

 

[HNL2LHC]

also there

 

[lbhsbz]

Why do you need a wheel spacer? Why not just a hub-centric ring?

 

[Shlbyntro]

Why do you need a wheel spacer? Why not just a hub-centric ring?

I dont need the spacer. but I have plenty of wheel stud to accomodate one and figure the more stout, the better.

how would you make the ring if not in the form of a spacer?

 

[lbhsbz]

I dont need the spacer. but I have plenty of wheel stud to accomodate one and figure the more stout, the better.

how would you make the ring if not in the form of a spacer?

Like this…these are used for the rotors in our JK big brake kits. Put a little flare on one end to fit in the chamfer on the pilot hole in the wheel…then it won’t go anywhere.

 

[SoCalDave]

Not sure if it was noted but what material does this need to be?

 

[Shlbyntro]

billet aluminum Im thinking. As far as the grade, Im not a metallurgist lol

Like this…these are used for the rotors in our JK big brake kits. Put a little flare on one end to fit in the chamfer on the pilot hole in the wheel…then it won’t go anywhere. View attachment 1158702

I see, and you may know better than I but Im not sure Id trust that to make any nominal improvement to whats going on.

I guess you could say, I rather over engineer the f*ck out of it is my only real reason.

 

[lbhsbz]

Another thing I was just checking out...on the phone you mentioned you were torquing these to 160lb.ft.

I know these aren't ARP studs, but I was looking through some ARP literature and for a 170/180ksi 9/16-18 fastener, they're calling out 160lb.ft WITH ARP Lube. Now, it's been a while since I've used ARP stuff but I remember on head studs and rod bolts and whatever they were very specific about exactly where to apply the ARP lube, and as I recall, they asked for a significantly higher torque value if using a lesser lubricant like motor oil. I have not researched whether or not they recommend lube on their wheel studs, but....judging by the rest of the fasteners they make which are undoubtedly made to the same standards, 160lb.ft on a dry 9/16-18 wheel stud would be considered WAY undertorqued, which fits the symptoms.

The torque value used must stretch the fastener to create more tension than the joint will ever see in use. If it creates less tension, such that the fastener is exposed to cyclic loads that are greater than the static clamp load/fastener tension, then the fastener will fatigue and break.

A hub centric ring should absolutely NOT be necessary here. I could not hurt, but if the joint is clamped appropriately, they will not change anything.

I'd put some ARP or a good moly lube on the thread and retorque....do a test. lube 1 stud and leave another dry. Run the nuts on to 15lb.ft, then mark the nuts and see how much farther the lubed one turns before the wrench clicks than the dry one. 1 turn - .056" of fastener stretch. That's a lot.

Pins should be subjected to shear loads....bolts should be subject to tension loads. If the bolt is ever subject to cyclic tension loads or shear loads, that means the joint has failed due to insufficient clamping, either because our fasteners were not tightened enough of the fasteners are too small and incapable of providing the appropriate clamping force before passing their elastic state and moving into the plastic state.

 

[lbhsbz]

billet aluminum Im thinking. As far as the grade, Im not a metallurgist lol


I see, and you may know better than I but Im not sure Id trust that to make any nominal improvement to whats going on.

I guess you could say, I rather over engineer the f*ck out of it is my only real reason.

The spacer, in theory, is only there to align things so that everything is concentric when we clamp it all down with the lugs. Plenty of aftermarket wheel manufacturers supply plastic hub-centric rings....and they work great, because they don't corrode.

You have an issue with insufficient clamping....these rings will serve as a crutch...but read my other reply. I think we're way undertorqued. If under dynamic conditions, the wheel is moving independently of the hub somehow and flexing the studs....a ring to take up the space between the wheel bore and the hub pilot should help with that, but we still have to address why the independent movement exists....and that is insufficient clamping.

Sorry for the edits...adding to it.

The minimum tensile strength of a grade 8 fastener in 9/16-18 is 30,400lbs. 160lb.ft WITH arp lube gets you to about 22,000 of clamp. I have to imagine that the studs you're using are of considerably better quality than your typical grade 8 fastener....so we've got a ways to go before we start to hurt that bolt with more torque (more accurately...more stretch to create more tension.) Also, you're using no lube. So figure at your torque value you're at 15,000lbs of clamp. Add some lube gets you 25% more, plus however much you raise the torque value. 200ksi fasteners should tolerate about 10-20% torque than a 170ksi fastener, based on ARP's literature.

Without lube, I'd guess that 210-230lb.ft would result in about the same stretch as using 160lb.ft with the ARP lube, but you can test this theory with marking the nuts after snug (20lb.ft) and watching how much they turn, and how much torque you have to put to the dry one to get it to turn as much as the lubed one.

EDIT again: Just spoke with a buddy of mine who is kind of an authority on holding shit together....he mentioned that ARP hardware (and other brands with threads made to that level of precision) will gall to shit if no lube is used...galling, while it may not be visible to the eyeball, uses up a whole shit load of torque while accomplishing nothing of value....which is likely why ARP wants you to use their lube on their hardware.

 

[Shlbyntro]

The spacer, in theory, is only there to align thing so that everything is concentric when we clamp it all down with the lugs. Plenty of aftermarket wheel manufacturers supply plastic hub-centric rings....and they work great, because they don't corrode.

You have an issue with insufficient clamping....these rings will serve as a crutch...but read my other reply. I think we're way undertorqued. If under dynamic conditions, the wheel is moving independently of the hub somehow and flexing the studs....a ring to take up the space between the wheel bore and the hub pilot should help with that, but we still have to address why the independent movement exists....and that is insufficient clamping.

I lubricate all my fasteners. Its a habit from my salt water days. Fwiw I use Mercury Extreme Grease for this. From all my reading, 160 ft/lb is pretty much the max for aluminum wheels using tapered lug nuts. Any more and the lugnuts will just deform the wheels

 

[lbhsbz]

I just looked closer at the picture of that hub....While I'm no fastener engineer, the slotted holes where the studs are concerns me. The head of a fastener needs a good bearing surface. I'm wondering if when those studs are stretched, the fact that the head is not supported over 1/3 of it's diameter is causing the stud to bend, which with as many stress risers as threads create...will very likely cause it to break.

Call the hub people and tell them to drill the right size round holes on the right PCD. I'll bet all your problems go away after that happens.

 

[Shlbyntro]

I just looked closer at the picture of that hub....While I'm no fastener engineer, the slotted holes where the studs are concerns me. The head of a fastener needs a good bearing surface. I'm wondering if when those studs are stretched, the fact that the head is not supported over 1/3 of it's diameter is causing the stud to bend, which with as many stress risers as threads create...will very likely cause it to break.

Call the hub people and tell them to drill the right size round holes on the right PCD. I'll bet all your problems go away after that happens.

Those are the drive plates that grab the axles. Theres no special ordering those without the slots unfortunately. Shit, just the hubs in their standard configuration are an 8 week lead time

 

[lbhsbz]

Those are the drive plates that grab the axles. Theres no special ordering those without the slots unfortunately. Shit, just the hubs in their standard configuration are an 8 week lead time

OK...struggling to figure out what I'm looking at. So the studs press through the rotor hat, then through the hub? Also...is that hub/drive flange steel or aluminum?

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

What studs are those?

 

[chvynhra]

That's a thick drive flange. I would just do the ring like stated earlier. Spacers mess up scrub radius and puts more load on the bearings.

 

[lbhsbz]

I lubricate all my fasteners. Its a habit from my salt water days. Fwiw I use Mercury Extreme Grease for this. From all my reading, 160 ft/lb is pretty much the max for aluminum wheels using tapered lug nuts. Any more and the lugnuts will just deform the wheels

Don't use mercury grease...use ARP lube or another high moly grease (I use Jetlube MP50 on most fasteners where I need it) If using merc grease, I'd run 'em up to 200lb.ft or so. If the effort required doesn't drop off before the wrench clicks...you're good.

 

[Shlbyntro]

What studs are those?

5/8-18 those are what came with the new bigger hubs

OK...struggling to figure out what I'm looking at. So the studs press through the rotor hat, then through the hub? Also...is that hub/drive flange steel or aluminum?

Its steel. the hub mounts directly to the axle via a spanner nut and then the plate slides over the wheel studs engaging the axle that runs through the hub to the differential.

That's a thick drive flange. I would just do the ring like stated earlier. Spacers mess up scrub radius and puts more load on the bearings.

Scrub radius is not an issue. As for the bearings, well this is a 1/4ton truck and theyre bigger than the ones on my Excursion so Im sure they will be ok.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

5/8-18 those are what came with the new bigger hubs

Its steel. the hub mounts directly to the axle via a spanner nut and then the plate slides over the wheel studs engaging the axle that runs through the hub to the differential.


Scrub radius is not an issue. As for the bearings, well this is a 1/4ton truck and theyre bigger than the ones on my Excursion so Im sure they will be ok.

View attachment 1158784

As far as spec of the studs and lug nuts.. any idea? Maybe just get better/new ARP ones. Heard of a lot of “covid spec” parts in the last couple years that just don’t hold up because of whatever change the mfg made in the last couple years.

 

[Shlbyntro]

As far as spec of the studs.. any idea? Maybe just get better/new ARP ones. Heard of a lot of “covid spec” parts in the last couple years that just don’t hold up bye to whatever change the mfg made.

They are provided by Mittler Bros (who makes the hubs) I can not find this particular stud from anyone else. I actually spent 45minutes on the phone with them yesterday discussing this exact thing and after checking around with their suppliers and their people in the shop putting them together. This truck is an outlier and it does not appear to them to be a common issue amongst their other customers

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

They are provided by Mittler Bros (who makes the hubs) I can not find this particular stud from anyone else. I actually spent 45minutes on the phone with them yesterday discussing this exact thing and after checking around with their suppliers and their people in the shop putting them together. This truck is an outlier and it does not appear to them to be a common issue amongst their other customers

And the problem is the lug nuts are coming loose?

 

[lbhsbz]

Also, keep any grease away from the conical taper on the lug nut and the wheel…that will absolutely cause problems.

 

[chvynhra]

5/8-18 those are what came with the new bigger hubs

Its steel. the hub mounts directly to the axle via a spanner nut and then the plate slides over the wheel studs engaging the axle that runs through the hub to the differential.


Scrub radius is not an issue. As for the bearings, well this is a 1/4ton truck and theyre bigger than the ones on my Excursion so Im sure they will be ok.

View attachment 1158784

Oh yea its on the rear, sorry coffee hadn't kick in yet.

 

[Waterjunky]

I would go with the rings and not the spacers but you night have a more fundamental issue. Lbhsbz is absolutely right in that you are at least having a tension issue. You would just need the ring to get them aligned correctly on the hub. As far as the spacer goes, think of it this way: Short and stocky is stronger and more stable than long and slender. I know that is a bit of an over simplification and in a perfect world it wouldn't matter as your clamping would overcome any potential slop in the system. Still, you are just adding torque and side load by moving further out on the studs.

More importantly Those rims look like they take a tapered lug (correct me if I am wrong.....) This means they are designed for the alignment to come off the studs - not the center ring of the hub. you cannot use both. Bad things can happen if you try to use both as they are not perfect in their relationship to each other. The builder picks one and makes everything else match that. My guess is this could be why the hubs have slots. They are build to be centered off the hub and the rims are built to be aligned off the studs. You might need different rims that align off the hub.

I am not an expert of this stuff, I know enough to be dangerous - not necessarily useful.

 

[Shlbyntro]

I would go with the rings and not the spacers but you night have a more fundamental issue. Lbhsbz is absolutely right in that you are at least having a tension issue. You would just need the ring to get them aligned correctly on the hub. As far as the spacer goes, think of it this way: Short and stocky is stronger and more stable than long and slender. I know that is a bit of an over simplification and in a perfect world it wouldn't matter as your clamping would overcome any potential slop in the system. Still, you are just adding torque and side load by moving further out on the studs.

More importantly Those rims look like they take a tapered lug (correct me if I am wrong.....) This means they are designed for the alignment to come off the studs - not the center ring of the hub. you cannot use both. Bad things can happen if you try to use both as they are not perfect in their relationship to each other. The builder picks one and makes everything else match that. My guess is this could be why the hubs have slots. They are build to be centered off the hub and the rims are built to be aligned off the studs. You might need different rims that align off the hub.

I am not an expert of this stuff, I know enough to be dangerous - not necessarily useful.

ive never had an issue using the 2 together. I ran hubcentric adapters on my Mustang for about a decade without issue

 

[joecfd1]

Here ya go @Shlbyntro

 

[Sawtooth]

Here ya go @Shlbyntro

View attachment 1159468

Hey, hey, hey....... what's with all this side hustle shit recently? With the crazy amount of monies I pay you to make my boat parts you should have plenty of peanut butter and jelly on hand and no need to look for extra work, sheeesh!

 

[joecfd1]

Hey, hey, hey....... what's with all this side hustle shit recently? With the crazy amount of monies I pay you to make my boat parts you should have plenty of peanut butter and jelly on hand and no need to look for extra work, sheeesh!

You better be nice to me or I won’t let you help me hang a new tv on the patio this week!!!

 

[Sawtooth]

You better be nice to me or I won’t let you help me hang a new tv on the patio this week!!!

So sorry sir, please let me know what day to come by to help you break it I mean install it!