Africa, The future is bleak; Caution ****GRAPHIC POACHING PHOTO"S*****

[riverroyal]

with you or anyone else hunting. Its just not my thing. I don't have that instinct I guess. Like I said, it will be up to hunters like yourself to stop or make a change in poaching. because non hunters really don't understand it.

if all poaching stops (which it wont), lets say the elephants. Whats the long term results? More elephants just roaming around? Or more 'tags' issued to sport hunters since there is no longer a population issue? I don't doubt there is a magic number of live elephants to sustain exact eco balance. 20 years from now does the elephant population grow to much? Is this now a sport hunters dream? From what you said, and facts, earth is not far away from eliminating some of these creatures.

Ive learned more on this thread about hunting and poaching then I have ever really. So, to answer you question, I have no idea what Im talking about. You have enlightened me on this issue. So job well done.

 

[TeamGreene]

You fella, miss the whole point and the reality.

Don't post and your ignorance is unknown, post and let the world know about it.:rolleyes

:thumbup:

 

[JD D05]

For those going to Costco tonight for a steak.

The cows are put into a line like Disney land. When it is yore turn a man leans down and uses basically a nail gun between the eyes about 5 inches long. This limp modes the computer. After that a sling blade dude makes a number of precise cuts around the ankles head and neck. The cow than is blasted with steam which turns the layer of fat between the hide and muscle into a liquid. After that it is moved into a serious of wheels like jugs machines and the entire hide is ripped off. Keep in the mind the heart is still beating because they don't want a bunch of blood in the meat.

 

[Dettom]

Afraid of the truth are you? This is no worse than a recent National Geographic special on poaching. You criticize hunting but won't look at the result of no hunting.

Very insightful post Nganga. You said it best when you said people criticize hunting but won't look at the results of no hunting. Unless I win the lottery, I'll never get a chance to hunt The Dark Continent. But that's ok. I'm glad the few remaining responsible hunters who get the opportunity, are humane and responsible and have appreciation for the animals over there, who's very survival is threatened by fools who seek enrich themselves. The problem is compounded when the modern media, lusts after a story of a lion killed legally but ignores this poaching problem. Sad commentary on our times.

 

[Ziggy]

Our city streets are full of poachers too, the 2 legged type.

 

[jb600]

Here is what pisses me off. Recently a well known bear killed a human up in Yellowstone. Human got between the bear and the cubs, sorry sport game over you fuked up. Now the same people that don't allow hunting don't allow guns in the park kill the mother bear and act like they saved someone or something.

Life is life no matter where it was brought into the world or how it was taken out. The real irony is how butt hurt or "I don't understand" people are but order a steak or whatever. Not sure if anyone has ever been to a slaughter house but there is a millions times more grace and respect when an animal is legally taken in the wild by a hunter that respects the process. I personally think we as humans can't change our basic instincts of hunting and gathering on some level. I understand we now live in a society that does not require the basic forms of this to survive but it is still there.

Poaching is disgusting with the exception of someone doing it to truly feed his or her family. Yes that does still happen, I use to give my deer to a family every year. The mom would literally break down in tears every time we dropped one off. My uncle is a big cattle rancher in Montana, the sick and dead cows he takes up to the Indian reservation and it is like Christmas morning for them.

I have hunted in my life and it taught me a lot of good lessons. I have no interest in killing an animal and haven't for a long time. I guess what gets me is the inconsistency we have when it comes to the type of animal or the process of how it happened. For example re introducing the wolves and the effect it has had.

I don't understand this mentality as well.

This pisses me off to no end.

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2013/04/15/more-charges-coming-in-walleye-poaching/

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

with you or anyone else hunting. Its just not my thing. I don't have that instinct I guess. Like I said, it will be up to hunters like yourself to stop or make a change in poaching. because non hunters really don't understand it.

if all poaching stops (which it wont), lets say the elephants. Whats the long term results? More elephants just roaming around? Or more 'tags' issued to sport hunters since there is no longer a population issue? I don't doubt there is a magic number of live elephants to sustain exact eco balance. 20 years from now does the elephant population grow to much? Is this now a sport hunters dream? From what you said, and facts, earth is not far away from eliminating some of these creatures.

Ive learned more on this thread about hunting and poaching then I have ever really. So, to answer you question, I have no idea what Im talking about. You have enlightened me on this issue. So job well done.

As you said, poaching will not stop. But, if the Elephant population returned to a "normal level" the result would be the annual quota of 5 Elephants. The science behind 5 is, 5 allows an off-take that has a population change of "no impact." the theoretical healthy population of just this GMA (Kilwa) is approx. 500-700. 5 is much less than the normal population swings based on life cycles. The amount of anti-poaching monies collected from those 5 Elephant hunts will pay to keep Tanzanian game scouts in the field even when there are no hunters, very significant point.

 

[riverroyal]

For those going to Costco tonight for a steak.

The cows are put into a line like Disney land. When it is yore turn a man leans down and uses basically a nail gun between the eyes about 5 inches long. This limp modes the computer. After that a sling blade dude makes a number of precise cuts around the ankles head and neck. The cow than is blasted with steam which turns the layer of fat between the hide and muscle into a liquid. After that it is moved into a serious of wheels like jugs machines and the entire hide is ripped off. Keep in the mind the heart is still beating because they don't want a bunch of blood in the meat.

Disneyland not so much.

I will say as a non hunting guy, cows are raised and breed for slaughter. The buck, lion, elephant, game animal is not. Not apples to apples.
I don't care how the cow is killed, its not a humane verse non humane way the food is killed to me, or most non hunters. That's what it is, food.

 

[riverroyal]

As you said, poaching will not stop. But, if the Elephant population returned to a "normal level" the result would be the annual quota of 5 Elephants. The science behind 5 is, 5 allows an off-take that has a population change of "no impact." the theoretical healthy population of just this GMA (Kilwa) is approx. 500-700. 5 is much less than the normal population swings based on life cycles. The amount of anti-poaching monies collected from those 5 Elephant hunts will pay to keep Tanzanian game scouts in the field even when there are no hunters, very significant point.

thank you for the reply. Must have been a crazy trip. Maybe Hawaii next time, seems more relazing

 

[JD D05]

I don't understand this mentality as well.

This pisses me off to no end.

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2013/04/15/more-charges-coming-in-walleye-poaching/

Fish don't matter to small...Whales though people loose there shit.

I actually had a conversation with a co-worker about meat and what not. She says to me fish is ok though so I ask why. She says well they don't feel any pain. My response was even carrots scream inside.

 

[JD D05]

Disneyland not so much.

I will say as a non hunting guy, cows are raised and breed for slaughter. The buck, lion, elephant, game animal is not. Not apples to apples.
I don't care how the cow is killed, its not a humane verse non humane way the food is killed to me, or most non hunters. That's what it is, food.

So if we raised lions on a farm specifically for slaughter than it would be different, like a pheasant farm? This is my exact point life is life no matter what and I don't understand a different set of rules or justification. Other than the conservation of a species. Most hunters view the buck as an experience and food.

 

[riverroyal]

So if we raised lions on a farm specifically for slaughter than it would be different, like a pheasant farm? This is my exact point life is life no matter what and I don't understand a different set of rules or justification. Other than the conservation of a species. Most hunters view the buck as an experience and food.

if American's ate lions from cost co, then yes. On the flip side, if cows were endangered then we wouldn't be eating them. Unless a hunter shot one.

I will say I hear the graphic 'cow' slaughter description all the time from hunters. Its like a attempt to make me think its ok to kill things other than cows. You wont get a pass from me with that analogy, Im not shocked by it, theres no part of me that will stop eating steak by this. Its sort of like this is the hunters 'go to' debate line.

If we, americans, ate moose, bucks or anything else in mass amounts then yes, its the same as cows. Raise them for this purpose. Life is life.

We all have opinion, like I said I have great life long friend that hunt. I don't care. So Im not directing anything to hunters here. Plus you guys have better aim than I do

 

[jb600]

Fish don't matter to small...Whales though people loose there shit.

I actually had a conversation with a co-worker about meat and what not. She says to me fish is ok though so I ask why. She says well they don't feel any pain. My response was even carrots scream inside.

LMAO!

 

[Wicky]

Let's see...
Guy who spends a ton of money to go to Africa &KILL defenseless animals in their environment, bitching about others that have done the same thing...priceless.

Somebody fell in love with Bambi at an early age....

 

[mbrown2]

There times like this when I listen to the conservationists and think they may have some valid points. Thanks for sharing this story. It is sad to see people exploit their environment beyond a reasonable means of survival.

I'd be up to go over there to hunt poachers and Chinese.

Ditto...although I don't support some of the so called tree huggers, but something more needs to be done to save the earth's natural resources. Thanks for posting, it will cause me to turn my philanthropic efforts towards something that would help this cause.

 

[JD D05]

if American's ate lions from cost co, then yes. On the flip side, if cows were endangered then we wouldn't be eating them. Unless a hunter shot one.

I will say I hear the graphic 'cow' slaughter description all the time from hunters. Its like a attempt to make me think its ok to kill things other than cows. You wont get a pass from me with that analogy, Im not shocked by it, theres no part of me that will stop eating steak by this. Its sort of like this is the hunters 'go to' debate line.

If we, americans, ate moose, bucks or anything else in mass amounts then yes, its the same as cows. Raise them for this purpose. Life is life.

We all have opinion, like I said I have great life long friend that hunt. I don't care. So Im not directing anything to hunters here. Plus you guys have better aim than I do

I am not trying to get you to stop eating steak and I doubt anyone is. I agree with you on the endangered deal I see no reason to hunt them personally. And just like me you have your "go to" debate line also, your logic eludes that as long as most Americans eat it is ok to kill it, or predisposed for a meal death. We should probably let the cows know though. There are also many farm raised traditional wild species raised specifically for a meal.

We also have not even got into the health effects and advantages of lean meat over some cow pumped full of hormones, point is there are advantages that some people really do like.

 

[2Driver]

All pitbulls are killers. Just throwing that out there.

 

[Enen]

All pitbulls are killers. Just throwing that out there.

Maybe we can have poachers set their sights on pit bulls.

 

[Old Texan]

To me it's interesting to hear the various viewpoints about hunting and domesticated animals used for consumption. I was quite fortunate to be raised in a rural area dominated by ranches, farms, and forest areas. Both wild and domesticated animals were part of everyday life. What I grew up with was how everything kind of just fell into place and how natural balance was understood.

I participated in the processing of numerous farm animals and understood how and why this was done. I even made a few of the "city" girls at school squeamish with my 6th grade report containing details and photos cattle being butchered.:yikes

Not to get long winded, I'll just get to the part where I learned the importance of keeping a balance in nature. A lot of what hunting and fishing is about relates to game management, or how to keep species from overpopulating and creating unhealthy imbalances that can have serious issues on all animals in the wild. It also protects against over harvest and depletion of habitat. Hunters along with Fish and Games scientists "manage" game animal populations and habitats. Funding for this vital protection of the resource and nature comes from license fees and organizational donations. Hunters and fisherman are the responsible stewards of the wild in this and other countries. Yet that point is completely misunderstood by many who condemn them and push for crazy legislation that often results in adverse conditions in nature.

Without groups like the Coastal Conservation, Ducks Unlimited, and other groups, we'd likely lose many types of wild animals all together. Uganda's points have always shown how essential hunters are to saving the game they hunt in various ways that obviously are poorly understood by many that see hunters as senseless killers. Without hunters from around the world, the African plains would have been void by now. That's not irony, that's fact.

 

[spectras only]

Hunters in general claiming that they do a good deed to control the animal population hunting selective species.
The problem with poaching in Africa is the blown out proportion population there. They breed like rabbits and can't feed their families by normal means. I think the solution is, giving out tags to hunt people there to control population just like controlling numbers of some animals. I'm sure there are way bigger number of hyenas than lions in Africa but don't think trophy hunters care to go after those.
Nganga, you said anti hunting activists rather have no elephants than have hunters hunting elephants. Sorry, but you're wrong in that respect.We donate money to both the Tennessee and California elephant sanctuary to save elphants that were used and abused by humans in circuses, so I do want to have elephants. They're better off in the sanctuary than in Africa, even though it isn't their natural habitat.
Just one more thing about hunting. We're carnivores so meat is part of our food source hence humans were breeding domesticated animals for consumption. Europe's population was only a mere 60 million in the middle ages and only the nobles were allowed to hunt there. They practically wiped out wild animals and now only some games avilable there in game farms under government control so they can generate revenue. Germans love hunting more than any other nations in Europe and they're the biggest revenue generators for Hungary for instance.
I have several hunter friends, they all good people but we'd never discuss this topic with them
You could see an African safari on one of them's walls all over in his house:skull

 

[2Driver]

Maybe we can have poachers set their sights on pit bulls.

Except mine. He's a lover. Wouldn't hurt a flee. [emoji2]

 

[Old Texan]

Hunters in general claiming that they do a good deed to control the animal population hunting selective species.
The problem with poaching in Africa is the blown out proportion population there. They breed like rabbits and can't feed their families by normal means. I think the solution is, giving out tags to hunt people there to control population just like controlling numbers of some animals. I'm sure there are way bigger number of hyenas than lions in Africa but don't think trophy hunters care to go after those.
Nganga, you said anti hunting activists rather have no elephants than have hunters hunting elephants. Sorry, but you're wrong in that respect.We donate money to both the Tennessee and California elephant sanctuary to save elphants that were used and abused by humans in circuses, so I do want to have elephants. They're better off in the sanctuary than in Africa, even though it isn't their natural habitat.
Just one more thing about hunting. We're carnivores so meat is part of our food source hence humans were breeding domesticated animals for consumption. Europe's population was only a mere 60 million in the middle ages and only the nobles were allowed to hunt there. They practically wiped out wild animals and now only some games avilable there in game farms under government control so they can generate revenue. Germans love hunting more than any other nations in Europe and they're the biggest revenue generators for Hungary for instance.
I have several hunter friends, they all good people but we'd never discuss this topic with them
You could see an African safari on one of them's walls all over in his house:skull

You've addressed Nganda, but I'd like to comment.

Using whitetail deer as an example, we've had a period for the last 20 years minimum in many states where the deer population has grown beyond the ability of natural habitat to support them. Therefore F&G biologists find it necessary to allow more animals to be harvested in select areas. May times it is taking more does to keep new births down. If this wasn't done, the herd would develop disease or starve from lack of forage.

We often see many animals grow in number and then adjust back per natural means. Rabbits, and game birds come to mind. Hunting has become more than food gathering, it's become a needed and humane way to protect the animal populations and insure healthy breeding and stronger members.

Nganda can better explain how the animals of Africa benefit from intelligent game management and how funding will ultimately save the populations if applied correctly.

 

[jb600]

You've addressed Nganda, but I'd like to comment.

Using whitetail deer as an example, we've had a period for the last 20 years minimum in many states where the deer population has grown beyond the ability of natural habitat to support them. Therefore F&G biologists find it necessary to allow more animals to be harvested in select areas. May times it is taking more does to keep new births down. If this wasn't done, the herd would develop disease or starve from lack of forage.

We often see many animals grow in number and then adjust back per natural means. Rabbits, and game birds come to mind. Hunting has become more than food gathering, it's become a needed and humane way to protect the animal populations and insure healthy breeding and stronger members.

Nganda can better explain how the animals of Africa benefit from intelligent game management and how funding will ultimately save the populations if applied correctly.

Great example OT. Problem up here (which bit the DNR in the ass) was that we had a couple of bad winters in row, and an exploding wolf population that took its toll on the deer population. So know it's bucks only season again for this year.

Old article from 2014.

http://www.startribune.com/to-boost...ters-will-face-new-rules-this-fall/268381782/

Rifle season starts tomorrow so will see how the harvest goes for this year. I don't deer hunt myself, but I have plenty of friends that do, so getting venison is not a problem for me.

 

[Riverbound]

Thanks for the insight to something that few of have or ever will experience Nganga. definitely gave me a different perspective. regardless of the other closed minded posts in here, I enjoyed your thread.

 

[Old Texan]

Great example OT. Problem up here (which bit the DNR in the ass) was that we had a couple of bad winters in row, and an exploding wolf population that took its toll on the deer population. So know it's bucks only season again for this year.

Old article from 2014.

http://www.startribune.com/to-boost...ters-will-face-new-rules-this-fall/268381782/

Rifle season starts tomorrow so will see how the harvest goes for this year. I don't deer hunt myself, but I have plenty of friends that do, so getting venison is not a problem for me.

Winters are tough on deer and wolves make it even worse. I read an article a while back about wolves being reintroduced to MN and gathered many folks aren't happy about it. I'm sorry but I don't understand the need to encourage wolf populations in states and areas with human populations within their range. Bad things happen beyond deer being eaten.

Proof to me that animal activists without logic, create more issues than they solve.

 

[HALLETT BOY]

Sounds like we should be applying the same tactics to control animal species to humans ...

 

[jb600]

Winters are tough on deer and wolves make it even worse. I read an article a while back about wolves being reintroduced to MN and gathered many folks aren't happy about it. I'm sorry but I don't understand the need to encourage wolf populations in states and areas with human populations within their range. Bad things happen beyond deer being eaten.

Proof to me that animal activists without logic, create more issues than they solve.

You gathered right. Speaking of bad things, I live far outside the city limits, and don't ever remember seeing so many lost dog signs. A few years ago my friends who live just a few miles down the road from me were setting up for their daughters grad party, and wolf came through and snapped up their Pug in broad daylight. Awesome idea someone had there.:rolleyes

 

[Cray Paper]

I read most of the posts on this thread and after the first one by nganga I visualized how this was going to go and it has. He brought to attention a critical issue in a part of the world most of us will never experience, although for a reason most of us would never travel there for. I'm just explaining my thought process here because it seems so predictable to me, maybe not so much to others. Posters dig in, each side becomes more important (diving in to the weeds, more specifics that do not apply to the OP's comments, then goes off the rails with political party division. Isnt that what happened?

I find it ironic that some one that takes pride in paying big money for a " permit" and guide to lead them to exotic animals so they can pull the trigger and kill them is now finding random harvesting of these same idolized animals for non ego boosting reasons despicable. Sorry, that's the way I see it. Were not talking about black or white tail dear, over populated cougars, black or brown bears, turkeys, buffalo, polar bears, wild boars etc. We are talking bout apex predators in foreign lands that we all know are becoming extinct. I would really like to know what nganga went to Africa to hunt? Water buffalo? I doubt it, and that's why he didn't mention this.

Just my thoughts on this, cut short by my wife who know wants to talk.

One last thing I would like to say is that China is the main culprit for the tusk harvesting. The Philippines are the route Ivory takes, yes, US territory. IF we feel bad about this, then put the pressure on our government. It's in our hands. If you fill like shit about this, do a little research, the US government is helping a bit.

 

[Cray Paper]

Not trying to pile on Nganga, have to say thank you for showing real life extreme examples of what is going on in an environment most of will never see. The issues you brought up are real, and by you bringing them up some people that don't trust what they see on TV and might possibly avoid in magazines are sum what forced to think about. The pictures force the issue, no denying it's not taking place. My wife is a hardcore ignorer of everything that doesn't make sense to her, or she doesn't want to take the time to understand, (only votes republican. For what it's worth) refused to look at the photos in you thread and was infuriated at that these animals were harvested just for there tusks.

If your truly moved by what you witnessed and understand where your hard earned money makes the largest impact in these locals, just donate the money you would spend on a hunting trip to assist with preserving these animals. You wont get a head to mount on the wall, but maybe your kid will.

There is no silver bullet for this, but since you've seen it first hand, lead the charge for preservation, not from a consumer point of view.

 

[Gelcoater]

Were not talking about black or white tail dear, over populated cougars, black or brown bears, turkeys, buffalo, polar bears, wild boars etc. We are talking bout apex predators in foreign lands that we all know are becoming extinct. I would really like to know what nganga went to Africa to hunt? Water buffalo? I doubt it, and that's why he didn't mention this.

.

For what it may be worth,Dave.You weren't too far off with the water buffalo comment.
Steve(nganja) and I talked via text in the days before he left on this trip,about a number of things.One of them being his upcoming hunt.
I'm going to let him answer your question himself,and if his answer to you isn't good enough I (with his blessing) can post a screen shot (dated) of part of our conversation to back his words.
Fair enough?

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

I read most of the posts on this thread and after the first one by nganga I visualized how this was going to go and it has. He brought to attention a critical issue in a part of the world most of us will never experience, although for a reason most of us would never travel there for. I'm just explaining my thought process here because it seems so predictable to me, maybe not so much to others. Posters dig in, each side becomes more important (diving in to the weeds, more specifics that do not apply to the OP's comments, then goes off the rails with political party division. Isnt that what happened?

I find it ironic that some one that takes pride in paying big money for a " permit" and guide to lead them to exotic animals so they can pull the trigger and kill them is now finding random harvesting of these same idolized animals for non ego boosting reasons despicable. Sorry, that's the way I see it. Were not talking about black or white tail dear, over populated cougars, black or brown bears, turkeys, buffalo, polar bears, wild boars etc. We are talking bout apex predators in foreign lands that we all know are becoming extinct. I would really like to know what nganga went to Africa to hunt? Water buffalo? I doubt it, and that's why he didn't mention this.

Just my thoughts on this, cut short by my wife who know wants to talk.

One last thing I would like to say is that China is the main culprit for the tusk harvesting. The Philippines are the route Ivory takes, yes, US territory. IF we feel bad about this, then put the pressure on our government. It's in our hands. If you fill like shit about this, do a little research, the US government is helping a bit.

Hi Dave,

I knew you would be one of the critics. This response is part of why I was hesitant to post this. But, in for a penny, in for a pound right?

I went to hunt, "Cape" Buffalo, East African Kudu, East African Bushbuck, Kongoni, Zebra, Nyasa Wildebeest, East African Eland (unsuccessfully) and Sable. Water-buffalo are found mostly in Asia, there are some non indigenous Asiatic Water Buffalo in Australia. Interestingly, I had a 21 day license. On that license was Lion, Leopard and Elephant. As you can see by the Lion picture, I had an opportunity. I also would have attempted a Leopard. The problem with Leopard right now is, the Warthogs have had their babies, the Leopards eat them like everlasting gobstoppers, can't get them on a bait.

Dave, if you think I'm a bad person, I can handle that. (I don't think I am) If hunting makes a person bad, Guilty. I look at these forums differently. Sharing our life experiences with others, posting interesting hobbies and activities that others may learn something from. Sometimes, it won't fly right with all the members. If you go back and re-read my OP, and really try to absorb my range of emotions I tried to convey you may see it through a different prism. I think this forum at large, has garnered some knowledge from this thread, there is so much going on around the world that we just don't get a glimpse of.

I'll ask you the same question you asked me, If you do in fact, care for these animals, as much as you seem to, nothing stopping you from donation either. Do you honestly think stopping hunting in Africa will save the animals, or make them extinct? Well managed hunting is part of the solution, not the problem.

Steve

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

Here's two interesting links. It details the Kenya hunting closure and the result. It also compares the Elephant population in neighboring countries that allow well managed sport hunting. There can be no argument as to the delta between animals populations and health in African countries that allow hunting VS. countries that do not allow hunting.

Kenya has lost 60-70% of its animals since 1977.

http://davidlansing.com/should-hunting-be-allowed-in-kenya/

http://www.rexano.org/ConservationPages/Kenya_Frame.htm

 

[2Driver]

I have found that if you have to explain to someone the difference between selective sport hunting and poaching a species into extinction more than once, you should just move on

Grew up hunting in the Selous in Tanzania in the 70's. [emoji106]