208v 'High-Leg' Electrical Service help.

[jones performance]

try calling done-right electrical here in havasu. 928) 453-5255 he does alot of automation type sparky work.

 

[rrrr]

Had to beat it into their young minds, test phase to phase, not phase to ground to test for potential.

I was deinstalling a switchboard fed by a 480 volt 2000 amp bolted pressure switch one sunny day, and the plant electrician assured me it was deenergized. The switch was open. I checked for voltage on the load side phase to phase, and there was no voltage. I was about to proceed, but decided to check phase to ground.

To my surprise, the B phase was hot, but A and C were not. The bolt that fastened the B phase knife switch to the dielectric crossbar had fallen out, so when the switch was opened that phase stayed hot. It was a real eye opener.

 

[Taboma]

I was deinstalling a panel board fed by a 480 volt 2000 amp bolted pressure switch one sunny day, and the plant electrician assured me it was deenergized. The switch was open. I checked for voltage on the load side phase to phase, and there was no voltage. I was about to proceed, but decided to check phase to ground.

To my surprise, the B phase was hot, but A and C were not. The bolt that fastened the B phase knife switch to the dielectric crossbar had fallen out, so when the switch was opened that phase stayed hot. It was a real eye opener.

WHOA, that's the shit right there that kills you if your lucky and burns your face off if you're not.
I'm not even going to mention when I was a freshman journeyman and took down an entire shopping mall while installing a new breaker into a de-energized board.
Yes, in time hair does grow back and sight and hearing returns and yes, like daddy used to always say "Did you learn something ?" ,, YES

 

[SS-C]

I pulled this new to us piece of equipment out of a lab in Denver 3 years ago and it has been in storage since.

I’m thinking maybe if the movers were rough with the machine it’s possible something was jarred loose, out of calibration / alignment / adjustment, etc. This machine no doubt has micro switches / sensors and the like requiring close tolerance adjustment specs.

Also, since it has been in storage for 3 years, is it at all possible rodents might have found their way in and chewed some wiring? Just a thought, have seen this happen before.

 

[wishiknew]

this is a control problem not a voltage problem you need a control electrician to look at this a y system has a neutral there is no were to connect a nuteral to this system the control parts are fed from a control transformer at the top of the panel

 

[stokerwhore]

speaking of high legs; "hey look at all these spare spaces in the panel", said the apprentice. "every third one's a spare! we can land the new lighting circuits here and here." lol what do you think happened next? yes the company owner's son did this and spent quite a bit of time replacing new but "slightly used" fixture parts.

now that thread has hit two pages we require an answer as to what the solution was to this problem
edit: the original poster's problem not this one lol

 

[Flying_Lavey]

When we try to start the motor we can see a couple of contactors pulling in but nothing happening on the clear relays.

The clear "cube relays are typically only used on the control side as they do not have a very high load rating. Like others have said, I'd love to see a wiring diagram cause even though I really do not have the slightest clue about the different types of transformers and what not, I can sww by how you are describing the issue that it is most likely a control issue. Id first check at those contactors that are pulling in if they have proper power going in AND out of it.

 

[Taboma]

speaking of high legs; "hey look at all these spare spaces in the panel", said the apprentice. "every third one's a spare! we can land the new lighting circuits here and here." lol what do you think happened next? yes the company owner's son did this and spent quite a bit of time replacing new but "slightly used" fixture parts.

now that thread has hit two pages we require an answer as to what the solution was to this problem

Uhhh, this being RDP, might I suggest trying 240 V bulbs, they should last years on 208V

 

[Brobee]

Since I recall you doing utility work in the SDG&E area, where is it still currently common to find 240 Delta on the customer side ? I found it increasingly uncommon after the later 70's, except older industrial areas of LA or strictly on the customer side, again in older plants.

A lot of industrial shops with refer units, restaurants, liquor store. Almost exclusively older businesses or well pumps out in the avocado groves. Almost all of our underground 3ph is 120/208 but overhead banks are more diverse.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Cobalt232]

Ok, I have an automation/controls guy coming tomorrow. Will update when I know more...

 

[Bigbore500r]

Maybe this will help

 

[wishiknew]

Ok, I have an automation/controls guy coming tomorrow. Will update when I know more...

Thank you a good control guy can look at that panel and figure out the problem without a schematic

 

[Joe mama]

Maybe this will help

Installed a lot of those back in the day! Ours had the the flux dingleberry back extractor without the high leg..

 

[Taboma]

Thank you a good control guy can look at that panel and figure out the problem without a schematic

I notice you left out that minor footnote " But may take a little longer and cost a little more " If it were me, I'd still want to take a peek at the one that is running correctly, cheating I know.

 

[dspracing]

Call royal industrial in city of industry and ask for Jim Nunn. If anyone knows, he would.

 

[Joe mama]

Without a schematic and a sequence of operation it’s like a dog chasing its tail, eventually he catches it just to chase it again.

 

[liquid addiction]

Ok, I have an automation/controls guy coming tomorrow. Will update when I know more...

Any news? Curious to hear how it turned out.

 

[Joe mama]

Always a good time waiting for the outcome.

 

[Taboma]

Without a schematic and a sequence of operation it’s like a dog chasing its tail, eventually he catches it just to chase it again.

Some days it just comes down to this ----

And if that doesn't work, then you switch hats, everybody stand back

 

[Cobalt232]

Any news? Curious to hear how it turned out.

I found an industrial automation guy in Portland that has worked on these exact machines for a competitor of ours in the past and even moderinized them in a couple of cases. He is going to fly down next Thursday and dive in.

Will keep you updated.

 

[SS-C]

I found an industrial automation guy in Portland that has worked on these exact machines for a competitor of ours in the past and even moderinized them in a couple of cases. He is going to fly down next Thursday and dive in.

Will keep you updated.

... but what happened to the person that was to check it out today?

 

[dspracing]

I found an industrial automation guy in Portland that has worked on these exact machines for a competitor of ours in the past and even moderinized them in a couple of cases. He is going to fly down next Thursday and dive in.

Will keep you updated.

Curious who this is?

 

[Uncle Dave]

I found an industrial automation guy in Portland that has worked on these exact machines for a competitor of ours in the past and even moderinized them in a couple of cases. He is going to fly down next Thursday and dive in.

Will keep you updated.

If it doesn't work out reach out to luv2gofast - Bob has lifetime experience in the film/tv business and has likely seen one of these before.

 

[Cobalt232]

... but what happened to the person that was to check it out today?

I felt more comfortable using a guy that has worked on similar equipment. We'll see how it works out.

 

[Sleek-Jet]

Keep us posted. I'm always looking for industrial automation support people. We have a managerie of technology to keep running around here.

 

[Spudsbud]

High leg is nothing to mess with and its killed alot of electrician. Deep tunnel project uses it for there pumps cause when the motor shorts out it goes directly to ground with the high leg.

 

[Spudsbud]

I was deinstalling a switchboard fed by a 480 volt 2000 amp bolted pressure switch one sunny day, and the plant electrician assured me it was deenergized. The switch was open. I checked for voltage on the load side phase to phase, and there was no voltage. I was about to proceed, but decided to check phase to ground.

To my surprise, the B phase was hot, but A and C were not. The bolt that fastened the B phase knife switch to the dielectric crossbar had fallen out, so when the switch was opened that phase stayed hot. It was a real eye opener.

Years ago, working on a 100hp blower, and trusting another guy, is how I ended up a member of "The 480 Club".
Something you never forget......

 

[wishiknew]

Years ago, working on a 100hp blower, and trusting another guy, is how I ended up a member of "The 480 Club".
Something you never forget......

I joined that club at airport towers working on a exit sign guy I was working on them turned them back on when he was done fixing his sign . never trust anyone to control the power

 

[Taboma]

High leg is nothing to mess with and its killed alot of electrician. Deep tunnel project uses it for there pumps cause when the motor shorts out it goes directly to ground with the high leg.

Because there's less winding impedance on that leg ? They're single phase pumps running on the 415V, 480V Delta high leg, or the 208V high leg ?

 

[Taboma]

Years ago, working on a 100hp blower, and trusting another guy, is how I ended up a member of "The 480 Club".
Something you never forget......

I was always far more concerned about being burned beyond recognition from 480v than being electrocuted.
The day it happened to me, I got really lucky, sight returned within seconds, hearing returned within minutes and hair, well that took awhile.

Knew an apprentice that was burned over 80% of his body when he was installing a small 3" x 4" cover on a piece of live gear and dropped it in the hole. Every electrician I knew who'd suffered severe burns was a result of the copper plasma cloud after a phase to phase 480v fault.

Spent hours laying on a rubber blanket in a cable trench under gear, installing a new 480v breaker and mounting hardware, while partner wearing gloves worked from the face side. Only one of us moved at a time, one hand at a time, while the other watched and warned if we got close to metal. Now a-days, you'd be wearing so much protective gear you look like an EOD bomb tech and I don't know how you'd move.

Beer sure tasted great later --- with both lips still intact.

 

[Sleek-Jet]

Today you wouldn't be allowed to...

 

[SoCalDave]

I've used these guys over the past 20 years on troubleshooting industrial controls thats over my teams knowledge. Highly recommended.

Control Concepts

controlconcepts.com

 

[mjc]

what is this thing we are working on here anyway? inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Flying_Lavey]

Years ago, working on a 100hp blower, and trusting another guy, is how I ended up a member of "The 480 Club".
Something you never forget......

Im in the 460 club. Working on a good size package unit trying to locate a control circuit short and pulled the bonehead move of forgetting the line voltage was still hot. Went leg A to B. Luckily I was working by my tried and true practice of being somewhat off balance so when the joice went through, my muscles tightened and I fell away from the panel.

 

[Taboma]

Im in the 460 club. Working on a good size package unit trying to locate a control circuit short and pulled the bonehead move of forgetting the line voltage was still hot. Went leg A to B. Luckily I was working by my tried and true practice of being somewhat off balance so when the joice went through, my muscles tightened and I fell away from the panel.

A newer tech from Siemens Building Controls, was working on a chiller at the Qualcomm central plant. Opened the floor standing cabinet, grabbed his Fluke to check for voltage. The large yellow and black labels on the cabinets door showed ----- "Caution, 4 60 Volts ". Imagine his surprise (And luck) when the Fluke meter that he had hanging on the open door exploded when he touched the leads to the terminals. Shaken, but OK, he was obviously quite puzzled as to why his Fluke had violently smoked . Checking again, sure enough, labels showed "Caution 4 60 Volts." Found the plant foreman and inquired, imagine his 2nd surprise when he was informed "Oh yeah, the "1" fell off and we haven't gotten around to putting a new one on" Suddenly, it all made sense.

He's damned lucky (As was Qualcomm) he or somebody else wasn't holding the meter. I saw the meter, they put it in a display box at the Siemens branch as a reminder to others, if something seems wrong, like in this case, the gap between the 4 and the 6, verify, verify, verify.
Wasn't 460 volt, but 4160 volt, details, details.

 

[Flying_Lavey]

A newer tech from Siemens Building Controls, was working on a chiller at the Qualcomm central plant. Opened the floor standing cabinet, grabbed his Fluke to check for voltage. The large yellow and black labels on the cabinets door showed ----- "Caution, 4 60 Volts ". Imagine his surprise (And luck) when the Fluke meter that he had hanging on the open door exploded when he touched the leads to the terminals. Shaken, but OK, he was obviously quite puzzled as to why his Fluke had violently smoked . Checking again, sure enough, labels showed "Caution 4 60 Volts." Found the plant foreman and inquired, imagine his 2nd surprise when he was informed "Oh yeah, the "1" fell off and we haven't gotten around to putting a new one on" Suddenly, it all made sense. [emoji2959]

He's damned lucky (As was Qualcomm) he or somebody else wasn't holding the meter. I saw the meter, they put it in a display box at the Siemens branch as a reminder to others, if something seems wrong, like in this case, the gap between the 4 and the 6, verify, verify, verify.
Wasn't 460 volt, but 4160 volt, details, details.

Yeah, never worked on anything more than 460 volt myself. That's some crazy big shit! I've had my hands inside many chiller and refrigeration rack panels that were 460v and up to 1000 amp while live and never got bit there. Just when I was working on a small 7 ton package unit.

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk

 

[Cobalt232]

what is this thing we are working on here anyway? inquiring minds want to know.

Its a color film processor. When it is running, it will process about 500 rolls per day through this one. It is replacing a lower capacity machine currently in use.

Here are some photos of the rest of it:

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

When we get it running and before chemistry fill, we are going to have it painted Kodak Red.

 

[Uncle Dave]

A newer tech from Siemens Building Controls, was working on a chiller at the Qualcomm central plant. Opened the floor standing cabinet, grabbed his Fluke to check for voltage. The large yellow and black labels on the cabinets door showed ----- "Caution, 4 60 Volts ". Imagine his surprise (And luck) when the Fluke meter that he had hanging on the open door exploded when he touched the leads to the terminals. Shaken, but OK, he was obviously quite puzzled as to why his Fluke had violently smoked . Checking again, sure enough, labels showed "Caution 4 60 Volts." Found the plant foreman and inquired, imagine his 2nd surprise when he was informed "Oh yeah, the "1" fell off and we haven't gotten around to putting a new one on" Suddenly, it all made sense.

He's damned lucky (As was Qualcomm) he or somebody else wasn't holding the meter. I saw the meter, they put it in a display box at the Siemens branch as a reminder to others, if something seems wrong, like in this case, the gap between the 4 and the 6, verify, verify, verify.
Wasn't 460 volt, but 4160 volt, details, details.

Things like this are why I have to completely re-lable my buildings ac cabinets before I can put a backup generator in.

 

[fmo24]

@spectras only for some reason I thought he was a Kodak guy. Not sure in what capacity he worked

 

[Sleek-Jet]

A newer tech from Siemens Building Controls, was working on a chiller at the Qualcomm central plant. Opened the floor standing cabinet, grabbed his Fluke to check for voltage. The large yellow and black labels on the cabinets door showed ----- "Caution, 4 60 Volts ". Imagine his surprise (And luck) when the Fluke meter that he had hanging on the open door exploded when he touched the leads to the terminals. Shaken, but OK, he was obviously quite puzzled as to why his Fluke had violently smoked . Checking again, sure enough, labels showed "Caution 4 60 Volts." Found the plant foreman and inquired, imagine his 2nd surprise when he was informed "Oh yeah, the "1" fell off and we haven't gotten around to putting a new one on" Suddenly, it all made sense.

He's damned lucky (As was Qualcomm) he or somebody else wasn't holding the meter. I saw the meter, they put it in a display box at the Siemens branch as a reminder to others, if something seems wrong, like in this case, the gap between the 4 and the 6, verify, verify, verify.
Wasn't 460 volt, but 4160 volt, details, details.

God looks out for idiots and shave tail lieutenants... Holy fuck that guy was lucky. 4160 has a habit of not letting go, and the poor bastard just sits there and cooks.

 

[Joe mama]

Any updates!

 

[Cobalt232]

Success!!!

So I had a guy come down from Oregon that is familiar with these machine's electronics. In fact, he has updated a few to more modern controls.

Super nice guy named Paul. He is semi-retired and works often in the winery business with their industrial controls, including a lot of Italian equipment.

Even though we didn't have this machine's schematics, we had a set to our sister machine which is similar, but more complex. It took quite a few hours for him to find the issues with most of his time going over the schematics and staring at the controls. There were 2 issues preventing the machine from running. Once he verified the motor would run if he jumped it, it was then a matter of finding why it was not getting a signal to run. When we were originally troubleshooting the message on the display indicated that a safety was possibly tripped. The installation tech and I jumped the safety switches at the switches, but it still did not run so we dismissed that angle.

Paul eventually found different power readings at the 2 safety switches, but randomly. We determined when the install tech hooked up the wires (which are labeled, but hard to read due to age) he mixed one of the safety switches labeled U for one of the water solenoid switches labeled W. The reason that sometimes we would get power to that switch was when the program called for water from one of the solenoids at different intervals. So, he switched the wiring and fired it up. But it still would not start unless he jumped the safety switches at the panel. We then determined that one of the coiled cords for the safety switches was intermittent as well. I'll order some new cords and switches and we should be good.

It was interesting watching him work in a methodical fashion and just breaking down all the inputs and outputs to see how it works. Paul immediately dismissed the high leg concept that the tech wanted.

Here is a video of it running. Note that the guards are off and the operator safety devices are not installed yet. There are still air and nitrogen lines to hook up as well. These are operated in complete darkness by the operator. We do have some infrared scopes, but those cannot always be used if we are running any type of film stock that would be affected by that wavelength.

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[rrrr]

Success!!!

We determined when the install tech hooked up the wires (which are labeled, but hard to read due to age) he mixed one of the safety switches labeled U for one of the water solenoid switches labeled W. The reason that sometimes we would get power to that switch was when the program called for water from one of the solenoids at different intervals.

If you had mentioned your installer had wired remote switches to the controls I would have jumped all over that as the reason the machine wouldn't run!

 

[wishiknew]

Success!!!

So I had a guy come down from Oregon that is familiar with these machine's electronics. In fact, he has updated a few to more modern controls.

Super nice guy named Paul. He is semi-retired and works often in the winery business with their industrial controls, including a lot of Italian equipment.

Even though we didn't have this machine's schematics, we had a set to our sister machine which is similar, but more complex. It took quite a few hours for him to find the issues with most of his time going over the schematics and staring at the controls. There were 2 issues preventing the machine from running. Once he verified the motor would run if he jumped it, it was then a matter of finding why it was not getting a signal to run. When we were originally troubleshooting the message on the display indicated that a safety was possibly tripped. The installation tech and I jumped the safety switches at the switches, but it still did not run so we dismissed that angle.

Paul eventually found different power readings at the 2 safety switches, but randomly. We determined when the install tech hooked up the wires (which are labeled, but hard to read due to age) he mixed one of the safety switches labeled U for one of the water solenoid switches labeled W. The reason that sometimes we would get power to that switch was when the program called for water from one of the solenoids at different intervals. So, he switched the wiring and fired it up. But it still would not start unless he jumped the safety switches at the panel. We then determined that one of the coiled cords for the safety switches was intermittent as well. I'll order some new cords and switches and we should be good.

It was interesting watching him work in a methodical fashion and just breaking down all the inputs and outputs to see how it works. Paul immediately dismissed the high leg concept that the tech wanted.

Here is a video of it running. Note that the guards are off and the operator safety devices are not installed yet. There are still air and nitrogen lines to hook up as well. These are operated in complete darkness by the operator. We do have some infrared scopes, but those cannot always be used if we are running any type of film stock that would be affected by that wavelength.

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Like I said control guy could figure it out

 

[ElAzul]

So what type/ who are you processing film for? More info on the machine would be cool.

 

[Cobalt232]

If you had mentioned your installer had wired remote switches to the controls I would have jumped all over that as the reason the machine wouldn't run!

The installer had to attach lots of wires. Pretty much everything. He just mixed the ones labeled U and W.

 

[Cobalt232]

Like I said control guy could figure it out

Yep!

 

[Cobalt232]

So what type/ who are you processing film for? More info on the machine would be cool.

We process Black & White, C-41 (color negative) and E-6 (color slide) films. We have 3 dip and dunk machines like or similar to this and 2 'leader card' style machines that you might have seen in Costco type operations. We run 1000+ rolls per day at our San Clemente facility and about 150 per day in a contract facility in Florida. Even though all film arrives analog, it leaves digitized and delivered via our website.

There is still a subset of photographers that prefer film, or just an analog look. Many wedding photographers prefer film as skin tones are still superior to most digital applications. Wedding photographers can also charge a premium over digital shooters. We don't do much wedding work as there are a handful of labs that specialize in that market as it requires a lot of handholding. Our market is primarily film enthusiasts and wholesale work for other retailers. Film sales have actually been increasing over the past several years and is similar to the vinyl record resurgence.

Here is a link to a sales brochure on a Refrema. The one we were having issues with is a smaller model, however, our black and white machine is similar to the one in the brochure, but with fewer tanks as it is a shorter process.

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[Flying_Lavey]

We process Black & White, C-41 (color negative) and E-6 (color slide) films. We have 3 dip and dunk machines like or similar to this and 2 'leader card' style machines that you might have seen in Costco type operations. We run 1000+ rolls per day at our San Clemente facility and about 150 per day in a contract facility in Florida. Even though all film arrives analog, it leaves digitized and delivered via our website.

There is still a subset of photographers that prefer film, or just an analog look. Many wedding photographers prefer film as skin tones are still superior to most digital applications. Wedding photographers can also charge a premium over digital shooters. We don't do much wedding work as there are a handful of labs that specialize in that market as it requires a lot of handholding. Our market is primarily film enthusiasts and wholesale work for other retailers. Film sales have actually been increasing over the past several years and is similar to the vinyl record resurgence.

Here is a link to a sales brochure on a Refrema. The one we were having issues with is a smaller model, however, our black and white machine is similar to the one in the brochure, but with fewer tanks as it is a shorter process.

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

I took photo in high school and used my dad's old school Nikon SLR that was 100% manual. I still prefer it to the modern digital SLR's. But the convenience and operating costs make it kinda hard to justify (buying film all the time versus cheap digital storage and the amount of pictures one can take at once on a digital versus a film are big factors.