208v 'High-Leg' Electrical Service help.

[Cobalt232]

Hey...

For the past few months we have been doing a TI in the next unit over for new lab space. A couple of weeks ago, we started installing a piece of equipment that I thought required 208v electrical service that we have coming into the building (3-120 legs). It is a piece of equipment from the mid 90's that is used to process film made in Denmark. We have another one of them running next door on 208v (120x3 legs) for the previous 20 or so years with no issues. I pulled this new to us piece of equipment out of a lab in Denver 3 years ago and it has been in storage since.

I'm using an installer that has maintained our equipment for the past 15 or so years. He originally worked for Kodak, where he installed these machines since the 80's. He is the last one of these guys around as all the others have died, and he is in bad shape too. When he showed up to assemble the equipment a couple of weeks ago, he said the electrical service needed to be 3 phase with one leg 208 and the 2 others at 120. I thought he was confused. When the electrician who did the TI showed up he had never heard of this electrical service and said he just built it to the plans. When the architect and his engineer came in early in the project, I showed them the similar existing piece of equipment and told them the other machine will have similar electrical requirements based on them being similar machines from the same company.

We fired up the equipment last week and the single-phase things work (pumps, etc.) but the 3 phase motor isn't getting any power to run. The installer blames it on the electrical service and said other labs have had this same issue. So I called the electrician and he said he would call another electrician friend for some info. Unfortunately, his friend is on vacation until the 15th and I only have the installer available until the 10th (next chemo round).

So, I did a bunch of Googling and learned a bit about 'High-leg', 'Wild-leg', Stinger-leg' service that we apparently need but don't have. Do we need a transformer? I don't wan't to fry my equipment as replacements are non-existent.

What type of contractor do I need to help with this?

.

 

[DLC]

What is the job located?

if it’s San Diego I can name a few people to call

 

[monkeyswrench]

Don't know about the equipment itself, but it looks like you need 3 phase to the equipment. What is needed, is really dependent on what on what power you have available in the building. If you have 3 phase available, as most commercial buildings, you will have to grab that and bring it over. If not, you will need a phase converter to make that "third leg". Those are widely priced, depending on how much juice is needed for the machine.

As for a contractor, an electrical contractor that does commercial stuff, not a residential. Maybe contact a local machine shop to see if they have a guy.

 

[varmit86]

I think you could use the two legs and run them through a rotary phase converter and the manufactured third leg would be what your looking for.
Where are you I have a friend in long beach?

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[Racey]

'High Leg', is usually from an 'open-delta' transformer configuration, which aren't that common. The "High Leg" has a higher voltage to neutral on one of the legs. It won't matter to a 3 phase motor as they get their power phase to phase, not phase to neutral.

Normal 208 is a 'Wye' transformer configuration. Any of the legs to each other have 208v:

L1 -> L2 = 208v
L2 -> L3 = 208v
L3 -> L1 = 208v

with a Wye all 3 legs to neutral will have 120v:

L1 -> N = 120v
L2 -> N = 120v
L3 -> N = 120v


Alternatively This is open delta below
Open Delta config is usually one leg to neutral has a higher voltage:
L1 -> L2 = 240v
L2 -> L3 = 240v
L3 -> L1 = 240v

To neutral 2 legs will have 120v and one will have a higher voltage:

L1 -> N = 120v
L2 -> N = 208v
L3 -> N = 120v

If your 3 phase motor is triggered by a contactor, there is a chance that contactor just happens to be on the high volt leg, and the contactor failed from the high voltage.

Edit: Fixed per rrrr's input. (I've never personally dealt with an open delta, i just know they exist and what they are, I'm not well versed on the finer points that some of our resident sparkys are )

 

[SS-C]

Your electrical panel in your suite from the way you describe it would be the 120/208V WYE system.

Sounds like you are supplying the equipment with the correct power requirements as per the nameplate on the machine.

I think you have something else going on wrong with the machine.

Your installer seems to think it needs the High-leg delta service for some reason, I tend to disagree judging from the machines name plate.

 

[rrrr]

The motor not having power isn't the fault of the electrical service. The PLC or a contactor isn't functioning correctly, or there's a thermal overload block in the circuit or on the motor that's tripped and needs to be reset.

With a nameplate of 208V 3PH 60 Hz, the equipment was built for American electrical service voltages. If it was European it would be rated at 220V 3PH 50Hz.

It's amusing and a bit troubling your electrician has never heard of 240V 3PH power.

 

[rrrr]

To neutral 2 legs will have 120v and one will have a higher voltage:

L1 -> N = 120v
L2 -> N = 120v
L3 -> N = 208v

Actually L2 or the B phase is 208V to neutral. It's an important distinction.

 

[highvoltagehands]

Need a “One line diagram“ Or schematic. Kinda hard to give good advice without seeing one. I think 4R is correct The motor isn’t getting power because contactor/starter isn’t closing. It could be the themal OL’s in starter or maybe a limit switch in system. Equipment that is run by Programmable Logic Controllers (PLC‘s) like these operate on a “and/or/not/nand/nor“ logic function which In the simplest form are a multitude of misc type limit switch’s in either open/closed position....certain things like motors aren’t going to operate unless they’re in correct sequence closing the control circuit and causing the contractor to close and energize the motor. Good luck.

 

[Sleek-Jet]

Make sure the emergency stop plunger isn't pushed in...

 

[Cobalt232]

What is the job located?

if it’s San Diego I can name a few people to call

We are in San Clemente

 

[Cobalt232]

Don't know about the equipment itself, but it looks like you need 3 phase to the equipment. What is needed, is really dependent on what on what power you have available in the building. If you have 3 phase available, as most commercial buildings, you will have to grab that and bring it over. If not, you will need a phase converter to make that "third leg". Those are widely priced, depending on how much juice is needed for the machine.

As for a contractor, an electrical contractor that does commercial stuff, not a residential. Maybe contact a local machine shop to see if they have a guy.

We are currently giving it 3 phase 208. 120 each leg.

 

[Cobalt232]

I think you could use the two legs and run them through a rotary phase converter and the manufactured third leg would be what your looking for.
Where are you I have a friend in long beach?

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

We are in San Clemente.

 

[liquid addiction]

I did something once that was a “sensitive “ type machine and it detected of the lines were out of phase to get the correct rotation to a motor. Something like a pump motor could cause problems if ran backwards on a sensitive operation. Might be as simple as switching 2 of the lines.

 

[Cobalt232]

'High Leg', is usually from an 'open-delta' transformer configuration, which aren't that common. The "High Leg" has a higher voltage to neutral on one of the legs. It won't matter to a 3 phase motor as they get their power phase to phase, not phase to neutral.

Normal 208 is a 'Wye' transformer configuration. Any of the legs to each other have 208v:

L1 -> L2 = 208v
L2 -> L3 = 208v
L3 -> L1 = 208v

with a Wye all 3 legs to neutral will have 120v:

L1 -> N = 120v
L2 -> N = 120v
L3 -> N = 120v


Alternatively This is open delta below
Open Delta config is usually one leg to neutral has a higher voltage:
L1 -> L2 = 240v
L2 -> L3 = 240v
L3 -> L1 = 240v

To neutral 2 legs will have 120v and one will have a higher voltage:

L1 -> N = 120v
L2 -> N = 120v
L3 -> N = 208v

If your 3 phase motor is triggered by a contactor, there is a chance that contactor just happens to be on the high volt leg, and the contactor failed from the high voltage.

When we try to start the motor we can see a couple of contactors pulling in but nothing happening on the clear relays.

 

[Cobalt232]

Your electrical panel in your suite from the way you describe it would be the 120/208V WYE system.

Sounds like you are supplying the equipment with the correct power requirements as per the nameplate on the machine.

I think you have something else going on wrong with the machine.

Your installer seems to think it needs the High-leg delta service for some reason, I tend to disagree judging from the machines name plate. View attachment 920272

That is what I originally thought too, until it didn't work. The technician is adamant it needs 208 on one of the legs though.

 

[Cobalt232]

The motor not having power isn't the fault of the electrical service. The PLC or a contactor isn't functioning correctly, or there's a thermal overload block in the circuit or on the motor that's tripped and needs to be reset.

With a nameplate of 208V 3PH 60 Hz, the equipment was built for American electrical service voltages. If it was European it would be rated at 220V 3PH 50Hz.

It's amusing and a bit troubling your electrician has never heard of 240V 3PH power.

My thoughts exactly. For fun, I have swapped contactors, same result.

 

[SS-C]

Need a “One line diagram“ Or schematic. Kinda hard to give good advice without seeing one.

As highvoltagehands stated, this is essential.
Look around inside the machine, usually some sort wiring diagram/schematic stuffed inside for this very reason

 

[Cobalt232]

Make sure the emergency stop plunger isn't pushed in...

We have the safeties bypassed. Plunger is out.

 

[Cobalt232]

I did something once that was a “sensitive “ type machine and it detected of the lines were out of phase to get the correct rotation to a motor. Something like a pump motor could cause problems if ran backwards on a sensitive operation. Might be as simple as switching 2 of the lines.

Tried all line combos.

 

[wishiknew]

This is a control issue not a voltage issue

 

[Cobalt232]

As highvoltagehands stated, this is essential.
Look around inside the machine, usually some sort wiring diagram/schematic stuffed inside for this very reason

Unfortunately, I don't have a schematic for this exact machine, only a similar one we already operate. Not sure where to get a schematic for a 25 year old Danish machine that the company no longer exists. I do know a few folks around the country with similar machines that I could reach out to if need be though.

 

[wishiknew]

The machine has nowhere to put a neutral and it has a control transformer at the top of the panel that I what powers the clear relays and control wiring

 

[Brobee]

'High Leg', is usually from an 'open-delta' transformer configuration, which aren't that common. The "High Leg" has a higher voltage to neutral on one of the legs. It won't matter to a 3 phase motor as they get their power phase to phase, not phase to neutral.

Normal 208 is a 'Wye' transformer configuration. Any of the legs to each other have 208v:

L1 -> L2 = 208v
L2 -> L3 = 208v
L3 -> L1 = 208v

with a Wye all 3 legs to neutral will have 120v:

L1 -> N = 120v
L2 -> N = 120v
L3 -> N = 120v


Alternatively This is open delta below
Open Delta config is usually one leg to neutral has a higher voltage:
L1 -> L2 = 240v
L2 -> L3 = 240v
L3 -> L1 = 240v

To neutral 2 legs will have 120v and one will have a higher voltage:

L1 -> N = 120v
L2 -> N = 120v
L3 -> N = 208v

If your 3 phase motor is triggered by a contactor, there is a chance that contactor just happens to be on the high volt leg, and the contactor failed from the high voltage.

This is the correct answer. However open vs closed delta refers to the number of transformers used to make the three phase voltages. This is for pole mounted overhead transformers only. All underground/pad mount 3ph transformers are considered closed delta. If you have two transformers it’s considered open delta and three are considered closed delta.
In my utility a delta secondary side which has the stinger leg is actually very common. It’s used for 3phase power and single phase light. The stinger leg is only used for the three phase motors.
The nameplate on the equipment says it needs 3 phase 208v which is what Racey said, a wye connection. It sounds like you have the correct voltages, just verify that the rotation is correct and you have full voltage at the equipment connections.

I just saw your in San Clemente. That’s still Sdge so my answer stands. Verify voltage at the connections and check at the motor when it’s turned on. Sounds like a bad relay.


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[highvoltagehands]

Unfortunately, I don't have a schematic for this exact machine, only a similar one we already operate. Not sure where to get a schematic for a 25 year old Danish machine that the company no longer exists. I do know a few folks around the country with similar machines that I could reach out to if need be though.

Might be able to get the software program from the EPROM installed in the IDEC Controller and get it read or converted into One Line or Ladder Digram, Or have he unit ”Scanned.” It’s been a long time since I did any industrial wiring but I think the electronic controller will most likely still have the program info available, Maybe check digital display?

 

[stokerwhore]

did you check for proper control voltage at your relays? I never assume control voltage is the same as input (line) voltage. That "+ ground" has me wondering is there is a control voltage transformer in the unit that is missing a "ground". Just a thought since it hasn't been mentioned yet. I mostly never give advice sight unseen.

 

[Taboma]

Great answers regarding the high leg, no sense repeating them. However, you mentioned having a twin to this unit currently running next door on 208 3PH. Your installer is asking for a high leg 208V, on a Wye system, which doesn't make sense. So, how about this installer using the working example to show your electrician either what he's talking about, OR simply compare and look for any differences to see what's missing from this equation, look to the existing one for the answer.

 

[rrrr]

It makes no sense at all. The installer is asking for the 208 volt high leg circuit. That would mean feeding the machine with a 240V 3PH delta circuit, which is a direct conflict with the machine's nameplate.

I'm gonna go with the obvious, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[Taboma]

It makes no sense at all. The installer is asking for the 208 volt high leg circuit. That would mean feeding the machine with a 240V 3PH delta circuit, which is a direct conflict with the machine's nameplate.

I'm gonna go with the obvious, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Well given the confusing direction he's offering for the supply voltage, I'm not sure how I feel about this: I mean, this isn't his first rodeo with this machine.
As us sparkys know, much of our job description is being a really good detective, in addition to magician and snake oil salesman.

" I'm using an installer that has maintained our equipment for the past 15 or so years. He originally worked for Kodak, where he installed these machines since the 80's. He is the last one of these guys around as all the others have died, and he is in bad shape too."

 

[Joe mama]

Some equipment is phase sensitive, swap a leg. Also verify motor works bump the contractor. If that works then your going through the control circuit which might be timely without a schematic.

 

[Taboma]

Some equipment is phase sensitive, swap a leg. Also verify motor works bump the contractor. If that works then your going through the control circuit which might be timely without a schematic.

Need to put a phase rotation meter on the good unit and compare.

 

[Joe mama]

Just curious why B leg is marked orange on your picture? Maybe I reading this thread wrong

 

[Taboma]

Just curious why B leg is marked orange on your picture? Maybe I reading this thread wrong

Because orange is the closest he had to red on his truck ??
I used to love the service calls on the old seven color Heidelberg printing presses, with the schematics all in German.

 

[Joe mama]

That was making me think maybe that unit has a high leg and the equipment needs 208Y.. lol

 

[rrrr]

Because orange is the closest he had to red on his truck ??
I used to love the service calls on the old seven color Heidelberg printing presses, with the schematics all in German.

Combining the German with machines built with one color of control wiring, you get the Piller 75 kVA 400 Hz Silentblock motor generator frequency converters and paralleling cabinets that tied several of them together. They were used on large IBM mainframes, the largest being the monster 3090 600J.

I spent considerable time troubleshooting the paralleling cabinet connections to the MGs. They were sensitive to slew rate settings, which affected the ability to parallel multiple MG units, and with all the wiring being one color it was a challenge. There were about fifteen conductors between the parallel cabinet and each MG. Having schematics obviously helped, but translating the German was a pain.

This is a typical setup, the paralleling cabinet and three MGs are in the foreground, and that's an IBM 3090 600 behind them.

 

[Taboma]

Combining the German with machines built with one color of control wiring, you get the Piller 75 kVA 400 Hz Silentblock motor generator frequency converters and paralleling cabinets that tied several of them together. They were used on large IBM mainframes, the largest being the monster 3090 600J.

I spent considerable time troubleshooting the paralleling cabinet connections to the MGs. They were sensitive to slew rate settings, which affected the ability to parallel multiple MG units, and with all the wiring being one color it was a challenge. There were about fifteen conductors between the parallel cabinet and each MG. Having schematics obviously helped, but translating the German was a pain.

This is a typical setup, the paralleling cabinet and three MGs are in the foreground, and that's an IBM 3090 600 behind them.

Oh I'm sure we could easily kill a keg or three recounting some amazing (To us anyway) war stories But alas I don't want to derail this gentleman's thread.

 

[Taboma]

That was making me think maybe that unit has a high leg and the equipment needs 208Y.. lol

Oh yeah, that 277V leg

 

[highvoltagehands]

Is this your equipment? There’s a contact at bottom that might be able to help.
http://www.footprintsequipment.com/images/brochures/Refrema/Compact_C41_BW_E6/Compact_C41_BW_E6.pdf

http://www.promarketinc.com/pdf/siennarefrema.pdf

 

[stokerwhore]

......As us sparkys know, much of our job description is being a really good detective, in addition to magician and snake oil salesman. ......

detective indeed, lol. Sherlock himself would be proud of the required ability to decipher fact from assumption and for some reason outright bullshit sometimes.

 

[liquid addiction]

Like has been said, the fact that there is no stinger leg does not make sense. I have both in my plant, delta and wye, and use both for same equipment when needed. I have old equipment so nothing is sensitive. As long as you have confirmed the correct "control" voltage is coming out of the control transformer, then its a matter of going through the control wire and making sure that the "conditions" are met for it to turn on. So many times going through this shit you end up replacing contactors, overloads, switches and anything else you throw at it and it ends up being a small safety switch, or another limiting device in the line. I always loved it when the mechanic would blame the electrician, and the electrician would blame the mechanic. I have been on both sides.

Also like was said above, confirm the neutral on the control transformer is grounded. Don't ask me how I know. LOL

 

[Cobalt232]

Is this your equipment? There’s a contact at bottom that might be able to help.
http://www.footprintsequipment.com/images/brochures/Refrema/Compact_C41_BW_E6/Compact_C41_BW_E6.pdf

http://www.promarketinc.com/pdf/siennarefrema.pdf

Unfortunately, they are long gone...

 

[Taboma]

detective indeed, lol. Sherlock himself would be proud of the required ability to decipher fact from assumption and for some reason outright bullshit sometimes.

Yup, always loved the look on the customer's face when they'd query you how you diagnosed and accomplished the fix and my only honest answer was "FM" ---
"FM ?" They'd question, "Yup, fucking magic"

 

[AZLineman]

'High Leg', is usually from an 'open-delta' transformer configuration, which aren't that common. The "High Leg" has a higher voltage to neutral on one of the legs. It won't matter to a 3 phase motor as they get their power phase to phase, not phase to neutral.

Normal 208 is a 'Wye' transformer configuration. Any of the legs to each other have 208v:

L1 -> L2 = 208v
L2 -> L3 = 208v
L3 -> L1 = 208v

with a Wye all 3 legs to neutral will have 120v:

L1 -> N = 120v
L2 -> N = 120v
L3 -> N = 120v


Alternatively This is open delta below
Open Delta config is usually one leg to neutral has a higher voltage:
L1 -> L2 = 240v
L2 -> L3 = 240v
L3 -> L1 = 240v

To neutral 2 legs will have 120v and one will have a higher voltage:

L1 -> N = 120v
L2 -> N = 208v
L3 -> N = 120v

If your 3 phase motor is triggered by a contactor, there is a chance that contactor just happens to be on the high volt leg, and the contactor failed from the high voltage.

Edit: Fixed per rrrr's input. (I've never personally dealt with an open delta, i just know they exist and what they are, I'm not well versed on the finer points that some of our resident sparkys are )

You got it down!

 

[Racey]

Unfortunately, they are long gone...

You need to call an automation/controls electrician, not the guy that hangs conduit and pulls thhn

Honestly for a guy that knows controls it shouldn't be too hard to troubleshoot.

 

[DaveH]

you need a delta transformer not a Y. Back in the 80's when i was an electrician we occasionally ran across this.

 

[Cobalt232]

I have a lead on a guy in Portland that has reworked similar machines including replacing the PLC with a modern computer....Now if he just calls me back......

 

[Brobee]

you need a delta transformer not a Y. Back in the 80's when i was an electrician we occasionally ran across this.

If the equipment requires 3ph 208, which is what it looks like from the nameplate, then it’s definitely a wye system.


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[Taboma]

you need a delta transformer not a Y. Back in the 80's when i was an electrician we occasionally ran across this.

I ran into that more in the 70's, before 208 became far more common. Many young sparkys have never encountered it after most utilities transitioned to the Wye configuration.
Another system that used to confuse and was potentially dangerous to those unfamiliar were 480 Delta ungrounded systems that used relays and indicator lights, showing which phase had faulted to ground and give you one free strike out of a two strikes and your out game.
Had to beat it into their young minds, test phase to phase, not phase to ground to test for potential.

 

[Taboma]

If the equipment requires 3ph 208, which is what it looks like from the nameplate, then it’s definitely a wye system.


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Since I recall you doing utility work in the SDG&E area, where is it still currently common to find 240 Delta on the customer side ? I found it increasingly uncommon after the later 70's, except older industrial areas of LA or strictly on the customer side, again in older plants.

 

[rrrr]

Yup, always loved the look on the customer's face when they'd query you how you diagnosed and accomplished the fix and my only honest answer was "FM" ---
"FM ?" They'd question, "Yup, fucking magic"

I've always used Ron's Rule for Working on Complex Equipment like the aforementioned Piller units and big second generation data center UPS systems.

It's simple; if I was working on a problem with said equipment and the issue went away without me actually doing something, I could take credit for repairing it, even though I had no idea why it fixed itself.