12' Daytona Outboard - Please Help!

[miniboatfan]

I am looking for an outboard for my mini Daytona. I need some help to understand what the options are. I'm hoping someone has experience with these little Daytonas and can tell me what's best. I really want about 50hp and the four stroke is very appealing but they are so darn heavy I am worried that it wont sit or handle right. They average 215 Lbs. It would be great to get some speed and keep some pull power for a tow tube. If I step down to 30hp it would be in the 150lb range but I will lose the power, the high charging benefit, etc. I really want to avoid two stroke. At the LA boat show this weekend I looked at the Evinrude Vtec and they are a clean running two stroke but they are as heavy as the four stroke. I would really appreciate some help with this. If anyone has a picture of the same type boat sitting in the water would be great so I can see what to expect.
Many thanks,
Dave - Miniboatfan

 

[RiverDave]

Everyone I've ever seen is rigged with a 40HP Tohatsu.. They weigh in (guessing, but I've picked them up a few times by hand) around 120 - 130 pds?

RD

 

[miniboatfan]

Thanks RD. I've read several of your comments in the forums and I really would appreciate your opinion and thoughts on whether or not the boat would sit and handle ok if I went with the four stroke (adding 80lbs.) Plan is to put gas tank and battery forward which I think moves about 65 to 75lbs forward.
Thanks again,
Dave - Miniboatfan

 

[CampbellCarl]

From another thread, small lightweight batteries are available for that type of condition.

 

[RiverDave]

Thanks RD. I've read several of your comments in the forums and I really would appreciate your opinion and thoughts on whether or not the boat would sit and handle ok if I went with the four stroke (adding 80lbs.) Plan is to put gas tank and battery forward which I think moves about 65 to 75lbs forward.
Thanks again,
Dave - Miniboatfan

I think that you would probably be fine with the heavier
Motor if you reduced the setback.. You would probably see some performance losses though. Just start putting more shit up front like ya said.. Lol

I am looking for something with more power and light weight.. I found one tricked out deal but cost prohibitive is an understatement. Guy wanted like 7k for the outboard.

Personally I don't care if it's two stroke or not.. Probably prefer two stroke actually.

 

[miniboatfan]

Thanks RD. That seems to always the problem, weight versus power. The bitch to me is that 40 & 50 are exactly the same weight, specs, etc.... I'm told they are the same engine except for the programming. Maybe I should hang the 50. My son is still laughing his ass off at me as he slams 500+hp into his 21'.
I think your right about moving the motor closer to the transom. I did some preliminary measurements and with a new jack plate with a shorter steaper angle and moving 6" closer to the transom the top fin of the motor will be just about flush with the bottom of the keel. I think that's about right, maybe an inch too low...

Thanks again for your input, I really appreciate it.

Dave - Miniboatfan

 

[Flying_Lavey]

Why are you trying to stay away from a 2-stroke? The 4 strokes being over 200lbs is absurd!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk

 

[miniboatfan]

Thanks Flying_Lavey,
At this point I am pretty much wondering the same thing. I guess initailly I thought I would do a really good restore and start with a new motor that had some varied use and ultimatley it would end up with the youngsters so I wanted it clean and reliable. The more I learn about the outboards it seems it may not be worth the price or the weight...
Thanks for your input.

Dave - Mininboatfan

 

[DeltaSigBoater]

Four Stroke :thumbsup

I'm probably gonna catch shit for trying to compare apples to avocados, but I have a 1979 13' Boston Whaler Sport (320 lbs dry) that I repowered with '04 40hp Yamaha 4-Stroke (183 lbs).

Guessing your Daytona is about the same weight as my Whaler, maybe even lighter. And the Max recommended HP is probably between 70-90, while my boat is maxed @ 40hp. Back in the day only 4-Stroke Outboard manufacture was Honda, and they didn't produce anything over 15hp. That being said a 70hp 2-Stroke of the same vintage as your boat is 260 lbs +/-, while a modern 60hp 4-Stroke weighs about the same.

My BW is in the water (ocean) 24/7, so unless its a very flat anything over 20mph is uncomfortable, but I've gotten to 38 on GPS and I have skied behind it. You should have no problem surpassing that (running a 50-60 4-stroke), let alone towing a tube.

Also if you don't take preventive measures, the ethanol in gas will cause major problem$ to a 4-stroke. However if you ever plan to run on Mohave, Mead, or Powell, it'll will be hard to do with a 2-Stroke, as the National Park Service is banning the use of them on 1/1/13.

 

[RiverDave]

Four Stroke :thumbsup

I'm probably gonna catch shit for trying to compare apples to avocados, but I have a 1979 13' Boston Whaler Sport (320 lbs dry) that I repowered with '04 40hp Yamaha 4-Stroke (183 lbs).

Guessing your Daytona is about the same weight as my Whaler, maybe even lighter. And the Max recommended HP is probably between 70-90, while my boat is maxed @ 40hp. Back in the day only 4-Stroke Outboard manufacture was Honda, and they didn't produce anything over 15hp. That being said a 70hp 2-Stroke of the same vintage as your boat is 260 lbs +/-, while a modern 60hp 4-Stroke weighs about the same.

My BW is in the water (ocean) 24/7, so unless its a very flat anything over 20mph is uncomfortable, but I've gotten to 38 on GPS and I have skied behind it. You should have no problem surpassing that (running a 50-60 4-stroke), let alone towing a tube.

Also if you don't take preventive measures, the ethanol in gas will cause major problem$ to a 4-stroke. However if you ever plan to run on Mohave, Mead, or Powell, it'll will be hard to do with a 2-Stroke, as the National Park Service is banning the use of them on 1/1/13.

40 Horse Tohatsu is 120 - 130 lbs.. I've found older 110 HP 2 strokes that weigh less then 260.. For 260 lbs you can get a big outboard?

Where did you see they are banning 2 strokes in 1/1/13.. because that might actually fuck with my outboard choice as I'd like to go up there with my mini's.

RD

 

[DeltaSigBoater]

40 Horse Tohatsu is 120 - 130 lbs.. I've found older 110 HP 2 strokes that weigh less then 260.. For 260 lbs you can get a big outboard?

True, but ask yourself, "Am I the only person who will ever drive it?" If the answer is yes then a Big HP outboard is a no brainer. However if you intend to let the kid(s) drive it when of age, or let another person drive it who might not have experience of driving at high speeds, then I would feel more comfortable with a Mid-range HP outboard.

Where did you see they are banning 2 strokes in 1/1/13.. because that might actually fuck with my outboard choice as I'd like to go up there with my mini's.

RD

My appoligies RD, it will only apply to PWCs, and the eventually will included all 2-Strokes that do not meet the 2006 EPA Emmission Standards.

NPS Two-Stroke Vessel Engine Regulations


Carl

 

[miniboatfan]

Thanks DeltaSigBoater,
I found this at CA Dept. of Boating & Waterways:
http://www.dbw.ca.gov/Environmental/TwoStroke/TSList.aspx

It applies to PWC AND 2 Cycles

Anderson and Calero Reservoirs, Santa Clara Valley Water District - Allow PWCs that meet CA Air Resources Board 2001 standards. May implement further restrictions if any gas-related chemical contamination detected in periodic water sampling. 3 July 2004
Anderson Reservoir -170 watercraft per day allowed. Calero Reservoir - 60 to 70 watercraft per day allowed. Coyote Reservoir -1 watercraft per six surface acres (Santa Clara Valley Water District Reservoirs) 3 Aug. 2004
Bass Lake, County of Madera ? Area set aside for PWC. 1, 2 June 1995
Berkeley Marina ? No PWC within 1500 ft. of the shoreline or fishing pier except in the 200 ft. wide access corridor designated by Harbormaster from a boat launch ramp at marina to a point further than 1500 ft. from shoreline. 2 2006
Canyon Lake, County of Riverside ? No PWC. 2 June 1991
City of Carlsbad ? PWC restricted on part of Agua Hedionda Lagoon. 1, 2 May 1994
City of Los Angeles ? Pier 300 shallow water habitat. No PWC. 2 April 1993
City of Pacifica ? No PWC on specified ocean beaches. 2 April 1990
City and County of San Francisco ? No PWC within 1,200 ft. from shoreline (with exceptions). 2 Oct. 1998
City of Sausalito ? No PWC launching or retrieving. 2 April 1994
Collins Lake Recreation Area, Collins Lake (private) ? No PWC. 2 May 1991
County of Marin, All Waterways ? No PWC. 2 Nov. 1999
County of Santa Cruz ? PWC prohibited within 300 yds. of shore, except to launch or land. 2 June 1990
Coyote Lake ? Max. 35 PWC per day. From May 1-June 1, powerboats allowed with receipt issued within past 2 days from any of 5 area stations selling non-MTBE gas. 3 May 2000
Diamond Valley Lake and Lake Skinner - No PWC. Only engines that are 4-stroke, 2-stroke equipped with direct fuel-injection or 2-stroke engines that comply with 2001 or later CA Air Resources Board emissions standards and use MTBE-free fuel. ADDITIONAL RESTRICTIONS 3 June 2003
Donner Lake, Town of Truckee ?- Prohibition of high emission two-stroke engines only if water fails to meet State drinking water standards. 3 July 1999
Farallones National Marine Sanctuary ? No PWC off Sonoma and Marin County coasts, from Bodega Head to Rocky Pt., near Stinson Beach. Federal Oct. 2001
Lakes Tahoe, Cascade, Fallen Leaf, and Echo - Dept. of Boating and Waterways and Tahoe Regional Planning Agency ? Motorboats must meet 2001 CA Air Resources Board emissions standard. (Carbureted and NON-direct fuel injection engines prohibited) 2 June 1999
Los Vaqueros Reservoir, Contra Costa Water District ? All motorboats are prohibited. 3 Aug. 1998
Mission Bay, City of San Diego ? Area set aside for PWC. 2 July 1988
Modesto Reservoir, County of Stanislaus ? Two-stroke vessels allowed only with MTBE-free fuel. 3 Mar. 2000
Monterey Marine Sanctuary ? Restricted Use of PWC Federal July 1996
Pine Crest Lake, County of Tuolumne ? No PWC. 2 Mar 1990
Point Reyes National Seashore and Golden Gate National Recreation Area, National Park Service ? No PWC. Federal April 2000
Scotts Flat Lake, County of Nevada ? No PWC. 2 Sept. 2004
Seal Slough (Marina Lagoon), City of San Mateo ? No PWC. 2 July 1988
San Pablo Reservoir, East Bay Municipal Utilities District ? (a) Only four-strokes or equivalent emission level allowed. 3 Jan. 2000
Whiskeytown Lake, National Park Service -No PWC Federal April 2002

I guess the key is direct injection. My, my, my this project just gets more complicated all the time...

 

[DeltaSigBoater]

Thanks DeltaSigBoater,
I found this at CA Dept. of Boating & Waterways:
http://www.dbw.ca.gov/Environmental/TwoStroke/TSList.aspx

It applies to PWC AND 2 Cycles

I guess the key is direct injection. My, my, my this project just gets more complicated all the time...

Great info!

If it were me I'd bite the bullet and go with the Four Stroke, that way you're already compliant when the all out ban on 2 Strokes happens, and wont have to spend more money on a new motor to be able to use your boat.

Couple of other IMO must haves, that I'm seriously considering on my whaler, let alone a mini.

Full Gauge Set... always nice to know what the engine is doing.

Hydraulic Steering... While it is more expensive, it offers better control and will not bind up like mechanical systems, changing the steering characteristics when you apply trim.

Tilt helm, no matter what steering system you choose consider this option, which not only gives you and others the ability to adjust the wheel for that optimum angle, but provides better ingress & egress in the helm/cockpit area.

Jack Plate... my outboard is bolted directly to the transom, there are others on here who can give you the performance and handling advantages to a JP, but in my case it would allow the outboard to completely come out of the water when fully tilted.

I'll take and post pics of my setup later this weekend.

 

[miniboatfan]

Thanks DeltaSigBoater,
I am really leaning toward the 4 stroke for long term use. I think the idea of shortening the jack plate to pull the engine closer to the transom is a great idea because currently it's about a foot away and it is the original fixed style. It would be a good opportunity to also make it an adjustable jack plate. I know I will be into this project for a lot more money than I'd planned but it has been a lot of fun just working on it. Honestly RD website makes it a lot more fun because it's like having buddies hanging in the garage talking over ideas. I guess I'm going to owe a lot of guys beers at the river when I'm done.
Thanks for your comments and I look forward to seeing your boat pics.

Dave - Miniboatfan

 

[Faceaz]

True, but ask yourself, "Am I the only person who will ever drive it?" If the answer is yes then a Big HP outboard is a no brainer. However if you intend to let the kid(s) drive it when of age, or let another person drive it who might not have experience of driving at high speeds, then I would feel more comfortable with a Mid-range HP outboard.



My appoligies RD, it will only apply to PWCs, and the eventually will included all 2-Strokes that do not meet the 2006 EPA Emmission Standards.

NPS Two-Stroke Vessel Engine Regulations


Carl

Man that sucks. Sounds like it's waterways influenced by Ca. & used for drinking water that are the target. Eitherway, my 1990 V8 that gets about 1.5 mpg just ain't going to cut it. I've always wanted to repower with a 300X, but that would be out also :thumbsdown. Maybe I can get a Optimax cowling to fit on my v8 & use Lucas Smokless Oil .

For power on your Daytona, considerring those restrictions, I would go with an E-tec. Not light for a 2 stroke, but light in general comparing to four strokes & they are a great running motor. Al has had a running demo on the showroom floor for years, you don't get hint of fumes off that thing.

The 60hp weighs in at 240lbs.

 

[AzGeo]

Back when that boat was being built, the USCG rules were UP TO A 40 HP OUTBOARD IF IT PASSED A WATER TEST COURSE. However, an inboard can have any amount of power, in any sized boat. I built a 12' 2" boat back then and we did put one together with a 70 HP Tohatsu. It sat VERY LOW at rest, but ran really well at speeds. Did a Mazda Rotor, Berkeley 'E' pump with a Place Diverter, ran over 70 MPH out of the box. (without a turbo) I would build that boat with a Turbo Mazda Rotor, Casale V-drive, some nice cav plates and two glass buckets. (about $7500 with a BIG OL' top speed)

 

[miniboatfan]

I took a close look at the E-Tec engines at the LA boat show and I was really impressed. There was one running right next me and I didn't even notice it until the sales guy pointed it out. He was familiar with the Daytona and felt pretty strongly that the 50 would be a great balance of power and weight. As far as other drivers, I agree that keeping the power down for them would be the best.

Thanks to all,
Dave - Miniboatfan

 

[RiverDave]

True, but ask yourself, "Am I the only person who will ever drive it?" If the answer is yes then a Big HP outboard is a no brainer. However if you intend to let the kid(s) drive it when of age, or let another person drive it who might not have experience of driving at high speeds, then I would feel more comfortable with a Mid-range HP outboard.

Carl

For kids you put put a throttle stop on it.. For anyone else, I wouldn't let an idiot drive one of my mini's.. Cost 2 much to build.

RD

 

[miniboatfan]

Yep, that's for sure!

 

[whiteworks]

weight would be my number 1 concern, the new nissans weigh in at 158lbs with power trim and cost about $4K. I think the older nissans/tohatsu 2 stokes weigh in at about 130lbs without a power trim.

http://www.marine-outboards.com/Nis...s/Nissan_Marine_40_HP_Outboard_Boat_Motor.htm

 

[miniboatfan]

That figures, I thought i was gaining some clarity until I saw the last footnote just above the ordering phone number...

"2-Stroke models not for sale in California"

I appreciate the link just the same, thanks WhiteWorks.

Just my luck!

Dave - Miniboatfan

 

[Flying_Lavey]

That figures, I thought i was gaining some clarity until I saw the last footnote just above the ordering phone number...

"2-Stroke models not for sale in California"

I appreciate the link just the same, thanks WhiteWorks.

Just my luck!

Dave - Miniboatfan

Buy it in Arizona then. lol!

 

[MCnParker]

That figures, I thought i was gaining some clarity until I saw the last footnote just above the ordering phone number...

"2-Stroke models not for sale in California"

I appreciate the link just the same, thanks WhiteWorks.

Just my luck!

Dave - Miniboatfan

Give these guys a call and see what they have floating around. They are in Costa Mesa and have had all the parts I have needed for mine in stock. They have a whole bunch of rebuilt/refurbished 2 strokes in the back last time I was there.

http://www.ambermarine.net/