Whipples screw supercharger 101?

[Wbinder]

Noob question here but can someone explain to me why the screw Superchargers make upwards of 300hp more than a roots style supercharger? Is it a much cooler charger? More efficient? Less horsepower to run the screwchargers? Are chillers still needed with screwchargers? Whipple vs psi? Are the whipples good for drag applications?

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[Jonas Grumby]

Oh boy, your in for a earful. I run 2 Whipples because 1 is never enough.

They are more efficient, less heating, you still need a chiller, and banned in drag racing.

 

[monkeyswrench]

An old school lobed setup is less efficient in the gathering and compressing of atmosphere. Takes more energy to stack atmospheres, as opposed to the helix or screw style. With the added efficiency, you get less heat generated, which in turn lets you have a denser charge, so you can build more. Cooler intake charge is always better, so if it is possible to run a chiller, the benefits include the ability to run more boost, timing, etc...

Boostpower can answer way better than me...and he's got "street cred' "

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Oh boy, your in for a earful. I run 2 Whipples because 1 is never enough.

They are more efficient, less heating, you still need a chiller, and banned in drag racing.

This. Roots superchargers are the least efficient means of adding boost

 

[monkeyswrench]

This. Roots superchargers are the least efficient means of adding boost

...But they look so much more pimp than a turbo and a fart muffler

...next car build is getting a massive hairdryer and no muffler

 

[Blackmagic94]

Oh boy, your in for a earful. I run 2 Whipples because 1 is never enough.

They are more efficient, less heating, you still need a chiller, and banned in drag racing.

What class are they banned in?

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

...But they look so much more pimp than a turbo and a fart muffler

...next car build is getting a massive hairdryer and no muffler

When I want the heaviest, least efficient, hardest to package, shiniest, power adder for a boat that lives on trailer in the garage...

I’ll sell it for a twin turbo boat.

 

[Racey]

Roots blowers were never designed to compress air, nor be superchargers for that matter, they were designed to displace and blow air to make up for the lack of a normal intake stroke on a 2 Stroke Detroit Diesel. Their Job was to blow new air into the cylinder at the bottom of the power stroke, displace exhaust out the top while the piston began it's cycle back into compression closing off the intake port.

Screw blowers were designed to compress air, literally, as air compressors, usually used in industrial applications. They are much more efficient at compressing air than roots blowers.

If you look at the way a roots blower moves it just works like an oil pump, air gets caught in the roots and passes around the outside of the housing as they spin outwards, and at the bottom the roots come together and back upwards in the center. A screw compressor actually guides the air between two helixes and shrinks in volume squeezing it.

 

[Jonas Grumby]

What class are they banned in?

I’m not sure nowadays, but at one time you couldn’t have them. I’m sure the rules have probably changed and they limit rotor size. The efficiency is the huge difference, to make 40 lbs, a Whipple takes 150 hp, a roots 600hp. That’s huge., just to turn the pully, that’s why you can get away with a serpentine on the screw, and you have to cog on roots. Although I think my belt slips pretty good because of all the belt dust.

 

[Blackmagic94]

And yet nothing makes more power then a roots blower with internal combustion in the world

 

[HighVoltage329]

Not allowed in any of the pro fuel or alcohol classes in NHRA...

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

And yet nothing makes more power then a roots blower with internal combustion in the world

Pull yore pants up. He’s asking for his pleasure bote, not a top fuel car

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Not allowed in any of the pro fuel or alcohol classes in NHRA...

They be in the 2s by now if they did lol.

 

[MSum661]

What class are they banned in?

The original Whipple that was banned in drag racing back in the late 1990's was NOT the same whipple you see people bolting 1 or 2 on their basic boat motors today. They were an entirely different monster of a supercharger and what is being discussed in this thread is not remotely close to the original. Not even clossssssssssse.

Just want to be sure you're clear on the enormous differences.

 

[ToMorrow44]

In addition to what was already mentioned, in roots blowers, the rotors actually touch the outer case (hence the Teflon strips) which builds more heat. Screw superchargers, nothing touches each other which is crazy when you watch one turn.

 

[Blackmagic94]

Not allowed in any of the pro fuel or alcohol classes in NHRA...

Neither are turbos or Centrifugal Superchargers as well. They want to make the cars equal

 

[monkeyswrench]

In addition to what was already mentioned, in roots blowers, the rotors actually touch the outer case (hence the Teflon strips) which builds more heat. Screw superchargers, nothing touches each other which is crazy when you watch one turn.

Well, not entirely true. A competition roots will have strips, and the big gun helix blowers run Teflon as well. There are variables in either direction. I've run low end stuff, but some friends run stripped rotors on drag race stuff. I have no idea what the setup for boats would be, as far as longevity. On my roots stuff, I'd just set them up dependent on fueling and type of fuel.

 

[Wbinder]

So now what’s the difference between the tbs high helix blowers vs the screw blowers? Is a high helix different then a roots?


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[Racey]

So now what’s the difference between the tbs high helix blowers vs the screw blowers? Is a high helix different then a roots?


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High Helix is still a roots blower with a slightly steeper pitch, very much different in operation from a screw compressor.

Do some youtubing on how a Roots Blower works, and then how a screw compressor works and you will get some better clarity than can be explained here in text.

 

[scottchbrite]

Top Alcohol funny cars and blown alcohol dragsters run screw blowers waaaaaay better than the old Whipple chargers shown above. They run PSI screw blowers now. We used to spin them at 125% many years ago before NHRA changed that rule.

I got to spend some time around a twin Whipple deal in a 21 Schiada this week. Pretty cool. A lot of opportunity to make power.

 

[ToMorrow44]

Check out this video too, some good show and tell between the two.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=297726707598107

 

[farmo83]

Tons of good info.

 

[Wbinder]

That’s some good stuff. How does a helix or a pie cut supercharger evenly distribute fuel and air in the motor if it’s just exiting through that one small portion of the blower?

Tons of good info.

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[Racey]

That’s some good stuff. How does a helix or a pie cut supercharger evenly distribute fuel and air in the motor if it’s just exiting through that one small portion of the blower?


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Lol, they don't.... This is why port injection is always superior. If you are really trying to squeeze power then a proper setup includes pre fueling before the blower to keep it happy and cool, and port fueling at each cylinder to keep the cylinders even and happy.

Granted they will work, just like carbs, you just fuel a little on the fat side to keep the worst cyl happy.

 

[Wbinder]

I wonder if this version is a pie cut or wide open? Couldn’t find any images of the bottom

Lol, they don't.... This is why port injection is always superior. If you are really trying to squeeze power then a proper setup includes pre fueling before the blower to keep it happy and cool, and port fueling at each cylinder to keep the cylinders even and happy.

Granted they will work, just like carbs, you just fuel a little on the fat side to keep the worst cyl happy.

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[MSum661]

Top Alcohol funny cars and blown alcohol dragsters run screw blowers waaaaaay better than the old Whipple chargers shown above. They run PSI screw blowers now. We used to spin them at 125% many years ago before NHRA changed that rule.

Just a wild guess but I think just about every Pro 1/4 mile drag racing team that owned one, racing either on water or asphalt, landed up using their Whipple Chargers for paper weights and/or dust collectors. I personally knew a few good guys that ran out and bought one only to find out that on the off-season Whipple would NOT re-certify their own Blower as required annually per the rule books. Thus the reason Whipple chargers were not legal to compete with or banned. Not only was it a $12 to $14K loss but then the reality that if they still wanted to professionally compete and you wanted to stay with a Screw blower then they had to purchase a "Certifiable" PSI.
There was nothing wrong with the Whipples, the company simply would not certify their own blower for professional competition.
So that resulted in a big hit nobody was happy about. PSI landed up the one and only best screw blower option. I set a lot of 1/4 Mile ET and MPH records , over a dozen, with our "D" PSI and never once did it let us down. It was always flawless but it would batter the shit out parts if you didn't get that thing happy and that usually translated to pumping a shit ton of fuel through it.

 

[Jonas Grumby]

And yet nothing makes more power then a roots blower with internal combustion in the world

And they could make Moor with a screw, but banned

 

[getreal]

Roots blowers were first used as air pumps.


It was founded in 1859 by the inventors Philander Higley Roots and Francis MarionRoots. It is notable for the Roots blower, atype of pump. Today, Roots blowers are mainly used as air pumps in superchargersfor internal combustion engines; they were first used in blast furnaces to blow combustion air to melt iron.

 

[Jonas Grumby]

To the op. Just get a blower that bolts on top. The look cool and work.

 

[Blackmagic94]

I think I was a TBS 6-71 to put on my botë

 

[scottchbrite]

Just a wild guess but I think just about every Pro 1/4 mile drag racing team that owned one, racing either on water or asphalt, landed up using their Whipple Chargers for paper weights and/or dust collectors. I personally knew a few good guys that ran out and bought one only to find out that on the off-season Whipple would NOT re-certify their own Blower as required annually per the rule books. Thus the reason Whipple chargers were not legal to compete with or banned. Not only was it a $12 to $14K loss but then the reality that if they still wanted to professionally compete and you wanted to stay with a Screw blower then they had to purchase a "Certifiable" PSI.
There was nothing wrong with the Whipples, the company simply would not certify their own blower for professional competition.
So that resulted in a big hit nobody was happy about. PSI landed up the one and only best screw blower option. I set a lot of 1/4 Mile ET and MPH records , over a dozen, with our "D" PSI and never once did it let us down. It was always flawless but it would batter the shit out parts if you didn't get that thing happy and that usually translated to pumping a shit ton of fuel through it.

I know all too well. We would sometimes carry as many as 3 PSI blowers in the trailer when I worked for Jay Payne/Brad Anderson (not all equal either ). At division races, we often ran against guys that still had good, certified Whipples. They still ran good. Payne ran one on his dragster back when. He had a beast of a crew guy that could lift the whole thing off, manifold and all, by himself!

 

[monkeyswrench]

For some reason I picture "Ital Mechanica", or "S.Co.T"...even the 30's Mercedes blower setup. Then you have the Judson style, rotary vane things

Roots blowers were first used as air pumps.


It was founded in 1859 by the inventors Philander Higley Roots and Francis MarionRoots. It is notable for the Roots blower, atype of pump. Today, Roots blowers are mainly used as air pumps in superchargersfor internal combustion engines; they were first used in blast furnaces to blow combustion air to melt iron.

 

[kiwi77]

Yep.....
Note the upper and lower fuel rails of Carson’s set up...

Lol, they don't.... This is why port injection is always superior. If you are really trying to squeeze power then a proper setup includes pre fueling before the blower to keep it happy and cool, and port fueling at each cylinder to keep the cylinders even and happy.

Granted they will work, just like carbs, you just fuel a little on the fat side to keep the worst cyl happy.

 

[MSum661]

I know all too well. We would sometimes carry as many as 3 PSI blowers in the trailer when I worked for Jay Payne/Brad Anderson (not all equal either ). At division races, we often ran against guys that still had good, certified Whipples. They still ran good. Payne ran one on his dragster back when. He had a beast of a crew guy that could lift the whole thing off, manifold and all, by himself!

That operation was 110% straight up all Business.
Working the schedule elbow to elbow with the Andersons and Payne landed you a 1st class high quality education
you carry with you for the rest of your life.

Good for you.

 

[monkeyswrench]

I did a little reading and came up with some interesting facts about the Roots blower.

The Roots blower was originally manufactured as an air source for steel mill blast furnaces, mine ventilation, and other industrial applications. It was patented in 1860. In 1900, Gottlieb Daimler patented a Roots supercharger for an automobile internal combustion engine.

The Roots unit found wide use in two stroke diesels, particularly those built beginning around 1930 by General Motor's EMD division. The positive intake pressure developed by the blower cleared the cylinder of spent combustion gases and introduced fresh air more efficiently than other air sources previously used.

The Roots blowers originally used on two stroke diesels produced around 2 PSI, which was sufficient to clear the combustion gases and introduce fresh air after ignition of the fuel.

When the Roots blower was adapted for hot rodding, users quickly found out the unit could be overdriven to produce more air, but the heat of compression and the mechanical limitations of the heavy rotating mass produced a point of diminishing returns. Larger cases, aluminum rotors, and rotor tip seals increased the efficiency of the units.

I learned that the old GMC blower rotors had the bearing shafts pressed into the ends A short time later, I was learning how to shim the gears for rotor clearance, and also learned Kuhl's would pin the old rotors and the bearing housings