Using the orange flag for swimmers

[blowncommission]

Intersting facebook post.

Swimmer in the water, do you use orange flag to notify other boats? Is there a law that goes with swimmers?

I know the rule for skiers but just made me think twice about the actual rules for people swimming.

 

[fishing fool]

Yes I put a flag up just to jump in and cool off. On the lake I try to move to the side, on the river it’s harder to get out of the way

 

[SBMech]

In any active area I have my flag up when people are in the water.

 

[That Guy]

If we have people in the water, we have the red flag up....I go by the boating theory that everyone else on the water hasn't ever driven a boat or is just a complete idiot....

 

[redone76]

Coast Guard auxiliary boat told me 2 weeks ago to put up the orange flag if anyone was in the water. I was floating in the Thompson Bay no wake zone
Last year Parker Police told me the flag was only for a skier down. I was floating in the Bluewater no wake zone
Damned if you do...damned if you dont

 

[That Guy]

Coast Guard auxiliary boat told me 2 weeks ago to put up the orange flag if anyone was in the water. I was floating in the Thompson Bay no wake zone
Last year Parker Police told me the flag was only for a skier down. I was floating in the Bluewater no wake zone
Damned if you do...damned if you dont

Go with damned if you do.....

 

[redone76]

Go with damned if you do.....

Yes sir!

 

[Jonas Grumby]

Yup we do

 

[blowncommission]

Coast Guard auxiliary boat told me 2 weeks ago to put up the orange flag if anyone was in the water. I was floating in the Thompson Bay no wake zone
Last year Parker Police told me the flag was only for a skier down. I was floating in the Bluewater no wake zone
Damned if you do...damned if you dont

I was always taught growing up on the river that you have the flag up if you have someone in the water for any reason. And you wave to the other boat if they have one up to let them know you see them.

SB county was floating next to us in the gorge and we had the flag up they didn’t say anything either way.

I guess I’m with the damned if you do. Just overall safety of making “most” people more aware and give a little extra room.

 

[wsuwrhr]

I believe BoatCop said it is only for a downed skier away from the boat.

But I fly mine anytime we are in the water.

Brian

 

[Constant840]

Got stopped in the middle of the Lake Mohave basin for swimming without a flag.
They came from such a distance they had to have been glassing us.
I had always thought it was for a downed skier, boarder or tuber. They told us anytime someone is in the water a flag should be up.

 

[Deja_Vu]

Yep, we sure do.
Always leave someone in the boat waving a flag to warn any boats coming by.
If it's just my wife and I we take turns jumping in

Most the time I will just duck into a cove to cool off.

 

[Big B Hova]

What does a rainbow flag mean?

 

[Uncle Dave]

Unless beached or in a blocked off cove - Anytime someones in the water Ive got a flag up.

So many new boaters, and guys the feel close passes are acceptable I like to do anything I can to build a buffer zone between my crew and lake full of new guys.

Being the super old school kind of guy I am I even go further - anytime Im running and see a guy with a flag in the air I raise my hand and point at him so he knows I see him.

 

[Deja_Vu]

What does a rainbow flag mean?

It means you are LGBT friendly

 

[Uncle Dave]

What does a rainbow flag mean?

Just thinking it would be funny if I replaced my buddies flag with a rainbow flag as a joke.

Like sending "honcho" magazine to a co workers company mailbox. Good for a few chuckles.

UD

 

[wsuwrhr]

....and someone always stays in the boat in deep water.

I believe BoatCop said it is only for a downed skier away from the boat.

But I fly mine anytime we are in the water.

Brian

 

[redone76]

What does a rainbow flag mean?

GRADS is in the water

 

[Joker]

Unless beached or in a blocked off cove - Anytime someones in the water Ive got a flag up.

So many new boaters, and guys the feel close passes are acceptable I like to do anything I can to build a buffer zone between my crew and lake full of new guys.

Being the super old school kind of guy I am I even go further - anytime Im running and see a guy with a flag in the air I raise my hand and point at him so he knows I see him.

We do this as well but most people towing the skier have no idea why our hand is up.


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[ChasingPaper]

Yep, we sure do.
Always leave someone in the boat waving a flag to warn any boats coming by.
If it's just my wife and I we take turns jumping in

Most the time I will just duck into a cove to cool off.

Leave someone in the boat that knows how to drive it... Orange flag up for us when someone jumps in...especially @blowncommission wife

 

[shane-o]

We do the same anytime someones in the water flags up. we see someone with a flag up we wave so they know we see them and the caution.

 

[aka619er]

I was going to bring this up the other day. Just bought a new flag and it came with a suction cup holder. I was wondering why someone would use this.
Then when out boating, everyone had a flag stuck to their Bimini or another mount and they were up the entire time they were pulling someone.
I thought it was just when skier down so someone woukd be waving it.

 

[Deja_Vu]

I was going to bring this up the other day. Just bought a new flag and it came with a suction cup holder. I was wondering why someone would use this.
Then when out boating, everyone had a flag stuck to their Bimini or another mount and they were up the entire time they were pulling someone.
I thought it was just when skier down so someone woukd be waving it.

That's the lazy way...

But yes. It's supposed to be waved when a skier is down in the water.

 

[RiverDave]

I was raised to put it up anytime someone is in the water..

Boatcop straightened me out with the fact that it’s only for skiers / ski ropes.

Now I put it out sometimes, don’t put it out sometimes..

 

[Uncle Dave]

I was going to bring this up the other day. Just bought a new flag and it came with a suction cup holder. I was wondering why someone would use this.
Then when out boating, everyone had a flag stuck to their Bimini or another mount and they were up the entire time they were pulling someone.
I thought it was just when skier down so someone woukd be waving it.

I use this when Im alone or with wife and want to swim together.

I pull it down though when I take off.

UD

 

[JBZ]

When I see a "SKIER DOWN FLAG" I am looking for someone 60 to 100 feet from the boat or a ski rope in the water Not someone sitting on there swim step
After a while you become FLAG blind and it defeats the purpose of the skier down flag.
I believe it is a dangerous practice

 

[King295]

I was raised to put it up anytime someone is in the water..

Boatcop straightened me out with the fact that it’s only for skiers / ski ropes.

Now I put it out sometimes, don’t put it out sometimes..

I always have a rope handy and will throw it at an oncoming boat if they are too close. Like a lasso of sorts. Does that count?

 

[wsuwrhr]

Yeap, right up until it catches something on the boat you threw it at.

Be careful what you wish for.

Brian

I always have a rope handy and will throw it at an oncoming boat if they are too close. Like a lasso of sorts. Does that count?

 

[King295]

Yeap, right up until it catches something on the boat you threw it at.

Be careful what you wish for.

Brian

Kidding of course. It always amazes me how many people do not give adequate room to boats that are floating with swimmers in or out of the water. Personally my flag is always up when I have swimmers in the water. If a LEO wants to give me a ticket for having my flag up when I have people in the water with no rope/skier I will gladly take it. Not worth the risk of jackasses that already don't give enough room.

 

[2Driver]

Coast Guard auxiliary boat told me 2 weeks ago to put up the orange flag if anyone was in the water. I was floating in the Thompson Bay no wake zone
Last year Parker Police told me the flag was only for a skier down. I was floating in the Bluewater no wake zone
Damned if you do...damned if you dont

Nobody told me there was a communication problem.

 

[Uncle Dave]

When I see a "SKIER DOWN FLAG" I am looking for someone 60 to 100 feet from the boat or a ski rope in the water Not someone sitting on there swim step
After a while you become FLAG blind and it defeats the purpose of the skier down flag.
I believe it is a dangerous practice

Any time I see that flag I just automatically act as though there is a swimmer and give a wide birth and try to spot the swimmer.

If I dont see them the swimmer they could be on the other side of the boat which is where I prefer my swimmers between the boat and oncoming traffic.

If theres a flag up and no one in the water thats annoying AF.

 

[redone76]

Nobody told me there was a communication problem.

I just said yes sir...don't want to argue and draw unneeded attention to myself

 

[CJ_Donahue]

Kidding of course. It always amazes me how many people do not give adequate room to boats that are floating with swimmers in or out of the water. Personally my flag is always up when I have swimmers in the water. If a LEO wants to give me a ticket for having my flag up when I have people in the water with no rope/skier I will gladly take it. Not worth the risk of jackasses that already don't give enough room.

Exactly what we do. If we are floating and someone is in the water flag is up. Even a prop check gets a flag. Sometimes two flags.

 

[Mike K]

Back in 2014 I got stopped by Arizona Fish and Game for swimming in Thompson Bay without a flag ... they told me anytime someone is in the water 1 person has to "stay onboard" and hold the flag ... then of couse they had to go through my boat for CG stuff and then told me I had to have 2 fire extinguishers cuz my boat was 28 feet. Live & learn. Also I used to ski a lot and I used to always put my hand up in the air to let the driver of the other boat know that I saw his skier down... you dont see that much anymore.

 

[Chris Lapoint]

I put the flag out if someone is in the water period, if a cop has a problem with being OVERLY safe then he can give me the ticket and get lost.
If some dipshit comes within an unsafe distance from my boat or the people in the water, please expect a half full coors light coming your way.

And on a side note, if someone waves to you - wave back, or else you get the finger for being a douchebag.

OK, Done.

 

[Slats]

I fly the flag any time someone is in the water. I wave to others with the flag up. Hey Chris lapoint. Where do you boat at. I would cruise by for a coots light if your out in the water. Or visa versa.

 

[oldschool]

I put the flag out if someone is in the water period, if a cop has a problem with being OVERLY safe then he can give me the ticket and get lost.
If some dipshit comes within an unsafe distance from my boat or the people in the water, please expect a half full coors light coming your way.

And on a side note, if someone waves to you - wave back, or else you get the finger for being a douchebag.

OK, Done.

If you go to Kaweah take alot of extra beer because you're going to be busy chucking em.

 

[River Runnin]

Ya want to swim!.Go to a frigg'n pool! ... Or sectioned off area for swim'n!

On a busy day, it's enough stress with boat!...

 

[wishiknew]

i dont understand people that put the flag on the rack and are just floating with no one in the water

 

[Chris Lapoint]

If you go to Kaweah take alot of extra beer because you're going to be busy chucking em.

Haha, we will be there this weekend on Saturday. The last two weekends I've driven the extra 45min to Millerton Lake which I absolutely love so far.

I always make sure to bring enough beer to throw, share & drink!

I have boated Parker/Needles my whole life, but recently moved up to Tulare/Visalia area so lately I've been boating the local lakes! Kaweah & Millerton are the only ones I've tested.

 

[ACS]

A “down skier flag” is just that. I was so annoyed memorial weekend when I saw people towing tubes and boards around with the flag up the whole time. If you are floating in the water no flag is required. I hope these kind of question are on the new CA boaters license test so people will learn.

 

[Chris Lapoint]

A “down skier flag” is just that. I was so annoyed memorial weekend when I saw people towing tubes and boards around with the flag up the whole time. If you are floating in the water no flag is required. I hope these kind of question are on the new CA boaters license test so people will learn.

It is about as annoying as reading in here on the forum about how you don't care too much if people are swimming in the water ahead of you, meanwhile are traveling 80mph up and down the River - like stated above, pass my boat and my people in the water too close and catch a coorslight.

 

[SBMech]

So many different answers, I personally have been told both opinions by Officers, that you must have a flag for swimmers as well as always for skiers/tubes.
Turns out the state of CA says this :

"Unlawful Operation of a Vessel California law states that these dangerous operating practices are illegal: Reckless or Negligent Operation of a vessel is the failure to exercise the care necessary to prevent the endangering of life, limb, or property of any person. Examples include, but are not limited to:
Maneuvering towed skiers or devices so as to “buzz” or spray others or pass the towline over another vessel or skier
Navigating a vessel, skis, or other devices between a towing vessel and its tow(s)
Jumping or attempting to jump the wake of another vessel within 100 ft. of the other vessel
Operating at high speed or erratically in congested waterway traffic
Operating such that your vessel or another vessel must abruptly swerve or abruptly cut speed in order to avoid collision
Operating near or through areas being used by swimmers or divers
Operating such that your vessel collides with another vessel, object or person
Chasing or harassing wildlife with your vessel
Improper Speed or Distance is not maintaining a proper speed and/or distance while operating a vessel. Specifically, it is illegal to operate any motorized vessel: At speeds that are not reasonable and prudent based on boating traffic, weather conditions, visibility or other potential hazards (if no limits are posted, operate your vessel so that it does not endanger others and that you are able to stop your vessel safely)
At more than slow, no wake speed within posted “No Wake” areas Such that it causes damage to a person or property with a vessel’s wake in posted “No Wake” areas At more than 5 miles per hour:
Within 200 feet of swimming areas, diving platforms, passenger landings, or areas where vessels are moored
Within 100 feet of swimmers

So no flag needed in CA, but I still do it in busy areas...fuck it it can't hurt since most jackholes out there don't know about the 100 foot law apparently.

 

[2Driver]

Back in 2014 I got stopped by Arizona Fish and Game for swimming in Thompson Bay without a flag ... they told me anytime someone is in the water 1 person has to "stay onboard" and hold the flag ... then of couse they had to go through my boat for CG stuff and then told me I had to have 2 fire extinguishers cuz my boat was 28 feet. Live & learn. Also I used to ski a lot and I used to always put my hand up in the air to let the driver of the other boat know that I saw his skier down... you dont see that much anymore.

You should have told that ass from AZGF to go read his own boating and safety regs. More likely he knew the law and was just BS-ing you as a way to board. Either way, inexcusable and they wonder why they are losing public support.

 

[HOOTER SLED-]

I have the ski flag that says show your tits......I use it as often as possible......even if no one is in the water.

 

[BoatCop]

Coast Guard auxiliary boat told me 2 weeks ago to put up the orange flag if anyone was in the water. I was floating in the Thompson Bay no wake zone
Last year Parker Police told me the flag was only for a skier down. I was floating in the Bluewater no wake zone
Damned if you do...damned if you dont

There is no Federal requirement for ski flags. The Coast Guard Auxiliary doesn't know what they're talking about. And neither does "Parker Police" since they don't do boat patrol and have no idea what the boating laws are. If you're talking about one of the Sheriff's Departments, state laws are different.

CALIFORNIA
Under California State Law, the flag designates a SKIER (Skier means any tow sports) down in the water OR a ski-rope or ski in the water. The flag shall be displayed for a SKIER, SKI or SKI ROPE. Other uses are not specified. It used to be an infraction to display a ski flag if there isn't a SKIER or SKI ROPE out, but that provision has been removed.

ARIZONA
The observer shall display or cause to be displayed a flag whenever a SKIER is down in the water. It has no force regarding the SKI or SKI ROPE, and those things are considered a HAZARD TO NAVIGATION*, if in the water with no skier nearby.

Several decades ago the Arizona Appeals Court ruled that Arizona's law (as written) only applies to a skier (person) and does not apply to skis or ropes.

ARS 5-346.C. The observer shall continuously observe the person or persons being towed and shall display a flag immediately after the towed person or persons falls into the water and during the time preparatory to skiing while the person or persons are still in the water. Such flag shall be a bright or brilliant orange or red color, measuring no less than twelve inches on each side, mounted on a handle and displayed as to be visible from every direction.

*The case came from an injury lawsuit. Boat A was involved in skiing. Skier had ceased skiing and was on the swim step. A second skier was getting ready to ski, but was still on the boat. Ski rope was deployed, ski flag was displayed and visible. Boat B came by and clipped the ski rope. The ski rope became taught causing the tow bridle to part, slinging the metal pulley on the bridle (that should tell you how old the case is) toward the shore, catching a young girl in the face, resulting in severe lacerations, and the loss of one eye. Girls parents sued both parties. Boat A said they were not responsible, since the flag was up. Boat B said they were not responsible, stating that they saw the flag, and seeing the skier was on the boat, presumed that skiing had ended, and there should be no need or purpose for a rope in the water. The trial court ruled and appeals court upheld that the ski flag law (above) made no mention of a ski rope, and that a reasonable person would also presume that with skiers on the boat, and not in the water, that there should not be a rope in the water. Boat B was excused from the lawsuit, and from that day forth a ski rope or ski in the water, with no skier in the water in proximity to the rope, IS a hazard to navigation. And that the flag only applies to a PERSON in the water.

Now someone mentioned an AZGFD Ranger who told them they had to have a ski flag up whenever ANY person (including a swimmer) is down in the water. That is also incorrect. As stated in the law above, it refers to " display(ing) a flag immediately after the towed person or persons falls into the water and during the time preparatory to skiing while the person or persons are still in the water". The law specifically states "TOWED PERSON OR PERSONS" and "PREPARATORY TO SKIING". My guess is that the Ranger that made that statement was mainly a Wildlife Ranger, and only did boating enforcement occasionally, and remembered when they were told about the above case law in boat school, that the flag applied to PERSONS in the water, and erroneously thinks that swimmers are included.

Lastly, it is only a courtesy for the driver of a boat to raise their arm when passing another boat with the flag up. This puts the operator of the boat with the skier down at ease, knowing that the other driver sees the flag AND the person down in the water. There is no law ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD that requires this. If you DO choose to do so (as a skier and ski-boat driver I highly encourage it) make sure ONLY THE DRIVER puts their arm up. It does no good, and no one cares if a PASSENGER sees it. Only the driver can NOT run over the skier.

 

[redone76]

There is no Federal requirement for ski flags. The Coast Guard Auxiliary doesn't know what they're talking about. And neither does "Parker Police" since they don't do boat patrol and have no idea what the boating laws are. If you're talking about one of the Sheriff's Departments, state laws are different.

CALIFORNIA
Under California State Law, the flag designates a SKIER (Skier means any tow sports) down in the water OR a ski-rope or ski in the water. The flag shall be displayed for a SKIER, SKI or SKI ROPE. Other uses are not specified. It used to be an infraction to display a ski flag if there isn't a SKIER or SKI ROPE out, but that provision has been removed.

ARIZONA
The observer shall display or cause to be displayed a flag whenever a SKIER is down in the water. It has no force regarding the SKI or SKI ROPE, and those things are considered a HAZARD TO NAVIGATION*, if in the water with no skier nearby.

Several decades ago the Arizona Appeals Court ruled that Arizona's law (as written) only applies to a skier (person) and does not apply to skis or ropes.

ARS 5-346.C. The observer shall continuously observe the person or persons being towed and shall display a flag immediately after the towed person or persons falls into the water and during the time preparatory to skiing while the person or persons are still in the water. Such flag shall be a bright or brilliant orange or red color, measuring no less than twelve inches on each side, mounted on a handle and displayed as to be visible from every direction.

*The case came from an injury lawsuit. Boat A was involved in skiing. Skier had ceased skiing and was on the swim step. A second skier was getting ready to ski, but was still on the boat. Ski rope was deployed, ski flag was displayed and visible. Boat B came by and clipped the ski rope. The ski rope became taught causing the tow bridle to part, slinging the metal pulley on the bridle (that should tell you how old the case is) toward the shore, catching a young girl in the face, resulting in severe lacerations, and the loss of one eye. Girls parents sued both parties. Boat A said they were not responsible, since the flag was up. Boat B said they were not responsible, stating that they saw the flag, and seeing the skier was on the boat, presumed that skiing had ended, and there should be no need or purpose for a rope in the water. The trial court ruled and appeals court upheld that the ski flag law (above) made no mention of a ski rope, and that a reasonable person would also presume that with skiers on the boat, and not in the water, that there should not be a rope in the water. Boat B was excused from the lawsuit, and from that day forth a ski rope or ski in the water, with no skier in the water in proximity to the rope, IS a hazard to navigation. And that the flag only applies to a PERSON in the water.

Now someone mentioned an AZGFD Ranger who told them they had to have a ski flag up whenever ANY person (including a swimmer) is down in the water. That is also incorrect. As stated in the law above, it refers to " display(ing) a flag immediately after the towed person or persons falls into the water and during the time preparatory to skiing while the person or persons are still in the water". The law specifically states "TOWED PERSON OR PERSONS" and "PREPARATORY TO SKIING". My guess is that the Ranger that made that statement was mainly a Wildlife Ranger, and only did boating enforcement occasionally, and remembered when they were told about the above case law in boat school, that the flag applied to PERSONS in the water, and erroneously thinks that swimmers are included.

Lastly, it is only a courtesy for the driver of a boat to raise their arm when passing another boat with the flag up. This puts the operator of the boat with the skier down at ease, knowing that the other driver sees the flag AND the person down in the water. There is no law ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD that requires this. If you DO choose to do so (as a skier and ski-boat driver I highly encourage it) make sure ONLY THE DRIVER puts their arm up. It does no good, and no one cares if a PASSENGER sees it. Only the driver can NOT run over the skier.

Thank you for the wealth of info BoatCop...now that you said it, it was LaPaz sheriff not Parker police


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[DonS]

"BoatCop"...….Thanks for the great write up and information.

This post brought up a situation that has occurred to us a couple f times on the Sacramento Delta. While towing a skier, through narrow turns typical of the Delta, another boat, will follow closely in my wake. I'm guessing they're most likely drunk or stupid to be doing so, but it's a very precarious position. The portion the river is too narrow to turn and reverse direction, so you're stuck with this idiot behind you until you get to open water and can turn away. Vigorously waving the down skier flag was unheeded. If your skier falls or you slow the boat, your skier is likely to get run over. I've had his happen twice in about a ten year period and just wanted to punch this guy out for being sooooo stupid.

 

[Slats]

Chris lapoint. Just to be clear. I would not drive by you to be a jerk. I was just saying. That I would enjoy having a cold beer with you. Hope you didn't miss understand.

 

[OC Mike]

Interesting read, especially the interactions with the LEO's.
I was always taught it meant skier down with rope.
Flag stays out as along as there is rope out.
Always had a policy of pulling the rope in when skier comes in, even if just changing skiers.

Wife and I took the Coast Guard Aux class years ago and I suspect that's where we heard about the flag up with swimmers
or anyone in water, seems to be common sense.
Reason I bring this up cause complacency has set in, rope is being left out with no flag.
Now, we do most of our skiing in the Virgin Basin, nearest boat is usually 100 yds away and no PWC's out there.
Complacency leads to sloppiness leads to accidents.
Last time out I instituted the Flag up if rope is out.
The other thing I do is I have my own personal flag at the helm.
It's always available to me if the need arises.

The other thing I do is say CLEAR everytime I start it up, will not start till I hear a clear back.
Clear means everyone and everything (rope) is clear of prop.