Two stroke CR / KX 500 versus todays 450 4 strokes...

[Cray Paper]

I would really like to get back in to dirt bike riding. I have owned and ridden a CR 125, CR 250, KX 250 and a highly modified ex pro ridden YZ 250, all two strokes. At the time I was about 6'3" tall and under 200 pounds. The KX had the best ergonomics for a taller person, but the YZ was the best all around bike. When I sold off my and my wife's bikes ( WR 250) to assist with the purchase of our first home I never thought it would take this long to get back in the saddle. I know todays 4 strokes are fast, but man I really like the 2 strokes and cant believe that an equivalent 4 stroke sized engine can make the same power. I would really like to buy a bike with my bonus this year, but I've gained a hundred pounds sense the last time I road and am debating a 4 stroke versus 2 stroke. I can still find clean CR and KX 500's, or should I look at KTM 525's? I loved my two strokes, light weight, slip the clutch to get in to the power band and hold on.

I have ridden big bore two strokes before and they didn't scare me when I was much lighter.

I road several of my friends 4 strokes in the late 90's, they just seems tame and didn't present much of a challenge to ride, are they really that much different today? I really enjoyed being able to control the raw power of a two stroke with the clutch, are modern 4 strokes peaky in the power band like 2 strokes of yore? I know the CC displacement needs to be double to produce the same HP.

 

[Flying_Lavey]

The modern 4 strokes are NOTHING like what you have ridden before. That said, I'm a 2 stroke guy through and through. I'd love to have a KX500AF. The powerband has just never been in another bike.

My cousin is getting his new 2017 KTM 300 2 stroke any day now. The preliminary stats on it are pretty crazy. You just cannot beat a 2 strokes reliability and affordability for repairs. Plus, I've been noticing a little resurgence of 2 stroke popularity.

 

[Kailuaboy89]

Ha! I like anything with knobbies on it, and have ridden and raced for the last 34 years on both 2 and 4 strokes, and mainly for maintenance cost effectiveness i prefer my 2 strokes, not to mention the power to weight ratio is still amazing. not to bag on the thumpers, they have come a long way and have a very linear feel to the power delivery and they are getting lighter, but they still feel on the heavy side to me. I still like the explosive feel of a 2 stroke that has been properly tuned when it comes on the pipe...light snappy and flickable in the air! I still miss the open class monsters like the KX 500, and the CR 500, and I have owned both, if I had to choose my ultimate weapon off road it would be a Service Honda CR500 AF or the KX500 AF. a 500 2 stroke power plant in a modern aluminum perimeter frame...oh the true meaning of fear will come with every twist of that throttle! I have to admit I love my CR250R in the trails but did ride a very well prepped CRF 250X a while back, and that was fun too, very electric power, and quiet for a 4 stroke. either way, im still a 2 stroke fanatic, and cant beat the smell of old timey castor oil in race fuel, I still run Klotz super tecniplate in my race bikes and skis. I taught both my daughters to ride on 2 strokes, with the old adage, that if they learned to ride those well, they could ride anything!

 

[BHC Vic]

I always thought a 250 was close to a 4 stroke. After watching bubba ride his two stroke wide open around his track the 4 stroke is much faster, and you don't have two ride it as hard. That being said I ride mostly track now a days and I wouldn't really utilize all the power of a 250 or 450. If I was just getting something to ride in the desert 450 would be my choice

 

[TCHB]

I would make sure it has electric start. The big bore bikes are not fun to start.

 

[Wicky]

2 stroke bike...2 stroke boat.....premixing is 32:1 times the fun.

 

[Bigbore500r]

Well - my screen name should be a clue as to what I ride (or used to ride....). I always loved CR500's, but the new 4 stroke 450s have a much higher redline, more usable powerband, and they hook up and don't wear you out. And stock for stock, the new 4 stroke 450s actually put down as much if not more Hp to the wheel , so the old " it takes double the size 4 stroke to equal a 2 stroke" doesn't apply

 

[LuckyDaze]

I have a KX500 and a XR650l. My 650 gets ridden the most. Partly due to the fact it's plated and I can just hop on and go

My Kx500 is a beast and pound for pound gives me a bigger smile than any 450 four stroke I've owned. I've had a crf450(2005) and a 2007 wr450. Sold em and got my 500. Would love to put that motor in an aluminum frame.

500's aren't just for everyone to ride though. They don't have a power band, it's either on or off. I find I just point the KX hit the throttle and hang on.

 

[96motorhead]

If you are riding desert the crf450r is a great bike with the perfect amount of power, i'm 6'8" 185 though. I want a cr500 really bad but I wouldn't get rid of the 450. The new 450's make as much power as a cr500 easily.

 

[77charger]

I have a steel frame cr500 lot of power it's a 2000 but it is not as snappy as an 85-87. They all make great low end power too there really not as high reving as most would think. I only ride mine at glamis done with tracks years ago and their is one drawback to the big bore is that they vibrate a lot but crack the throttle you forget about it.

They say the 4 strokes make as much power but it's not hard to get more out of a 500 either and they are reliable engines and cheap to repair I just did all new top and bottom end it was about 7-800 for everything.

Would love to have an af500 if I could

 

[COCA COLA COWBOY]

Try a KTM 525, 530 or whatever. I'm an old man when I say this, they are very Cush and very pleasant to ride. Great suspension stock for 200 pounder and plenty of power.

 

[JDKRXW]

I would make sure it has electric start. The big bore bikes are not fun to start.

THIS!!

The newest 450's are just a fast as a KX or CR500 ... un-like how they used to be.

 

[Flying_Lavey]

THIS!!

The newest 450's are just a fast as a KX or CR500 ... un-like how they used to be.

Top end straight line speed, both stock.... no. My tired '88 KX500 still walks away from them.

If I were to buy a new bike, this would be the one.

http://www.ktm.com/enduro/300-exc-1/

 

[TPC]

I grew up in off roading world when two strokes were unreliable junk.
For every hour of riding you had 3hrs fixing them. Replacing rings all the time.
Then, just when they got reliable and powerful and the suspensions matured to match the performance, they vanish from the scene.

Really happy with our 4 stroke YFZ 450's.
The early carburated 450's run far better than the newer FI's.

 

[pronstar]

THIS!!

The newest 450's are just a fast as a KX or CR500 ... un-like how they used to be.

Faster on a track due to advances in suspension technology and other factors.

Put a 500 2-stroke motor into a modern chassis, and things might be different.

But the fact that 2-strikes are slowly being regulated out of existence makes it sort of a moot argument regardless.

 

[yz450mm]

I would really like to get back in to dirt bike riding. I have owned and ridden a CR 125, CR 250, KX 250 and a highly modified ex pro ridden YZ 250, all two strokes. At the time I was about 6'3" tall and under 200 pounds. The KX had the best ergonomics for a taller person, but the YZ was the best all around bike. When I sold off my and my wife's bikes ( WR 250) to assist with the purchase of our first home I never thought it would take this long to get back in the saddle. I know todays 4 strokes are fast, but man I really like the 2 strokes and cant believe that an equivalent 4 stroke sized engine can make the same power. I would really like to buy a bike with my bonus this year, but I've gained a hundred pounds sense the last time I road and am debating a 4 stroke versus 2 stroke. I can still find clean CR and KX 500's, or should I look at KTM 525's? I loved my two strokes, light weight, slip the clutch to get in to the power band and hold on.

I have ridden big bore two strokes before and they didn't scare me when I was much lighter.

I road several of my friends 4 strokes in the late 90's, they just seems tame and didn't present much of a challenge to ride, are they really that much different today? I really enjoyed being able to control the raw power of a two stroke with the clutch, are modern 4 strokes peaky in the power band like 2 strokes of yore? I know the CC displacement needs to be double to produce the same HP.

The newer 450's don't have a "power band" or peak, and are not even comparable to any 4 stroke you've ridden. As far as 2 vs 4 stroke, everybody has their opinion on that... and they are just personal opinions.

If I read your post right, it sounds like you are a bit heavier now, so I'm thinking a big ktm would be your best choice.

I have an 03 yz450 in the garage that I would sell... [emoji16]

Video of 450 vs 500 [video=youtube_https;IX18xxTvuRM]https://youtu.be/IX18xxTvuRM[/video]

 

[HBCraig]

I am selling mine.....

http://www.riverdavesplace.com/forums/showthread.php?155249-1994-CR-500

 

[Ol Man]

Suspension is where the speed is in desert racing.

 

[Gelcoater]

I would really like to get back in to dirt bike riding. I have owned and ridden a CR 125, CR 250, KX 250 and a highly modified ex pro ridden YZ 250, all two strokes. At the time I was about 6'3" tall and under 200 pounds. The KX had the best ergonomics for a taller person, but the YZ was the best all around bike. When I sold off my and my wife's bikes ( WR 250) to assist with the purchase of our first home I never thought it would take this long to get back in the saddle. I know todays 4 strokes are fast, but man I really like the 2 strokes and cant believe that an equivalent 4 stroke sized engine can make the same power. I would really like to buy a bike with my bonus this year, but I've gained a hundred pounds sense the last time I road and am debating a 4 stroke versus 2 stroke. I can still find clean CR and KX 500's, or should I look at KTM 525's? I loved my two strokes, light weight, slip the clutch to get in to the power band and hold on.

I have ridden big bore two strokes before and they didn't scare me when I was much lighter.

I road several of my friends 4 strokes in the late 90's, they just seems tame and didn't present much of a challenge to ride, are they really that much different today? I really enjoyed being able to control the raw power of a two stroke with the clutch, are modern 4 strokes peaky in the power band like 2 strokes of yore? I know the CC displacement needs to be double to produce the same HP.

Dave,I think if I were you I'd lean towards what you already know.A 2 stoke 500.

They're simple engine wise,easy to tinker on,parts are still available and I suspect you can get into one cheaper than a newer 4stroke.

If the 500 isn't enough I believe there are big bore/stroker kits for the CR 500 engine.

 

[HBCraig]

If you want the best bike on the planet, a Service Honda 500 is it. There is no better bike. Aluminum CR 250 frame with a CR 500 engine. Get ready to pay though. There is nothing like it.

 

[Gelcoater]

The newer 450's don't have a "power band" or peak, and are not even comparable to any 4 stroke you've ridden. As far as 2 vs 4 stroke, everybody has their opinion on that... and they are just personal opinions.

If I read your post right, it sounds like you are a bit heavier now, so I'm thinking a big ktm would be your best choice.

I have an 03 yz450 in the garage that I would sell... [emoji16]

Video of 450 vs 500 [video=youtube_https;IX18xxTvuRM]https://youtu.be/IX18xxTvuRM[/video]

That video.:smackhead

Who launchs a CR 500 for a drag race in 1st gear?
Leave in 2nd.
Back in the day when I used to run my Banshee at the flat drags at Glamis I could get those guys who rode CR 500s and launched in 1st.
Race the same guy leaving in 2 and my hole shot was not as good and he'd real my ass in before the finish.
And no.
I'm not saying my Banshee is faster than a CR.
I'm saying in a 300 foot sand drag it's quicker.
If it was an 1/8 mile they'd smoke my ass.

 

[rrrr]

I would make sure it has electric start. The big bore bikes are not fun to start.

Electric start? What's that?

Kick one of these bad boys and it might kick back.

 

[77charger]

I would make sure it has electric start. The big bore bikes are not fun to start.

Learned a trick for starting my cr500 years ago.When cold turn on fuel lean it over real far til fuel pours out overflow stand it back up pull choke slight throttle open and out to top dead center and kick.Will usually start within 3 kicks.Read that this puts the fuel right into the pilot jet not sure exactly what it does but it works.

Before this i struggled at times but got it started now its easy even if it sat for 3 months without riding.Once warm it starts easy for me 99 percent of the time.Its just getting the right rythm.

 

[rmarion]

450 thumper you can ride any type of riding, desert, trail, MX park, SX.....running taller gears feel like a automatic...hardly no shifting EVER...LOL (thats how I gear'ed my 03 YZ 450, ran mid 90's in desert and only needed 2nd on the MX tracks)

500 smokers, IMO, only good for desert. (feels and rides heavier than todays thumpers)

250 thumper = 125 smoker, without the clutching, equal flickable) FUN RIDE!!!, no good for desert (if you like to open her up, you'll run out of throttle quickly)

 

[yz450mm]

450 thumper you can ride any type of riding, desert, trail, MX park, SX.....running taller gears feel like a automatic...hardly no shifting EVER...LOL (thats how I gear'ed my 03 YZ 450, ran mid 90's in desert and only needed 2nd on the MX tracks)

500 smokers, IMO, only good for desert. (feels and rides heavier than todays thumpers)

250 thumper = 125 smoker, without the clutching, equal flickable) FUN RIDE!!!, no good for desert (if you like to open her up, you'll run out of throttle quickly)

I still have my 03 450, people are always surprised at how fast that rocket ship is.

I've ridden a couple of 250f's on the track, I'm usually faster on those than my 450. They make you work for it, and carry more speed through the corners to be able to make the jumps.

 

[Flying_Lavey]

Learned a trick for starting my cr500 years ago.When cold turn on fuel lean it over real far til fuel pours out overflow stand it back up pull choke slight throttle open and out to top dead center and kick.Will usually start within 3 kicks.Read that this puts the fuel right into the pilot jet not sure exactly what it does but it works.

Before this i struggled at times but got it started now its easy even if it sat for 3 months without riding.Once warm it starts easy for me 99 percent of the time.Its just getting the right rythm.

Similar strategy for my KX500. Lean it down for a couple seconds for fuel to dump out the carb, kick it through firmly 3 or 4 times, turn on choke, Crack the throttle and kick it from TDC as hard as humanly possible. Fires up within 3 kicks. Usually on the 1st or 2nd everytime. Once warm, 1 or 2 kicks pretty easily.

For the desert I run 1 tooth taller on my countershaft sprocket. Thing is an absolute tractor then (which is good cause that's a heavy clutch pull) and runs deep in the 90's.

For the sand I run the factory sprocket so the extra chain length to give me enough room for the 10 paddle.

 

[arch stanton]

I really like the KTM 300 2 stroke i don't ride very fast but i like how light it feels and it has good torque and no vibration like a 500.
Mine has street plates and i rode it on the bass lake 250 and my brother dunes his a loves it no dunning for me on 2 wheels i like my funco

 

[yz450mm]

I would really like to get back in to dirt bike riding. I have owned and ridden a CR 125, CR 250, KX 250 and a highly modified ex pro ridden YZ 250, all two strokes. At the time I was about 6'3" tall and under 200 pounds. The KX had the best ergonomics for a taller person, but the YZ was the best all around bike. When I sold off my and my wife's bikes ( WR 250) to assist with the purchase of our first home I never thought it would take this long to get back in the saddle. I know todays 4 strokes are fast, but man I really like the 2 strokes and cant believe that an equivalent 4 stroke sized engine can make the same power. I would really like to buy a bike with my bonus this year, but I've gained a hundred pounds sense the last time I road and am debating a 4 stroke versus 2 stroke. I can still find clean CR and KX 500's, or should I look at KTM 525's? I loved my two strokes, light weight, slip the clutch to get in to the power band and hold on.

I have ridden big bore two strokes before and they didn't scare me when I was much lighter.

I road several of my friends 4 strokes in the late 90's, they just seems tame and didn't present much of a challenge to ride, are they really that much different today? I really enjoyed being able to control the raw power of a two stroke with the clutch, are modern 4 strokes peaky in the power band like 2 strokes of yore? I know the CC displacement needs to be double to produce the same HP.

You're welcome to come ride the twins and try out the newer four strokes... One is an 03, the other is a 14 with almost no hours.

 

[Sharp Shooter]

I would take a new 450 over any 500, but keep in mind I would rather have a blown flatbottom over any DCB.

 

[BHC Vic]

I would take a new 450 over any 500, but keep in mind I would rather have a blown flatbottom over any DCB.

That's like a contradiction i think [emoji4]

 

[SBMech]

If you can find a buddy with a 525EXC you should ride it, they are beastly. Probably as close to a 500 as you can get in terms of raw power. KTM makes a fantastic bike..

Hard to pass on a CR500AF if you have the cash though, nothing like it.

 

[Sharp Shooter]

That's like a contradiction i think [emoji4]

Sounds like it right?

I spend all my time at the track so handling is big priority so the 450 wins. DCB's are ok but lack the excitement of a blown flat. Thats just my opinion and I don't expect anyone to follow me on it.

 

[HBCraig]

A lot of guys are mentioning KTM in this thread. I have owned KTM's in the past. Great bikes. The 525 will be strong but it is heavy. The 2 stroke 300 with the electric start is about as perfect as you can get. I have a few buddies that are buying the last year of the CR250 2 strokes along with the YZ 250 2 stroke. They are setting them up for desert. Solid bikes that are a blast to ride.

 

[probablecause]

Had 2 cr500's in the last 20 years. 1987 and 1997. Just sold the 97. With age comes a cage.

[video=youtube;AZ46w6YEu0g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ46w6YEu0g[/video]

 

[77charger]

Had 2 cr500's in the last 20 years. 1987 and 1997. Just sold the 97. With age comes a cage.

[video=youtube;AZ46w6YEu0g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ46w6YEu0g[/video]

I mainly use the buggy for glamis but take the dirtbike out a few times to use for morning runs while everyone else is sleeping still.I dont plan on getting rid of it anytime soon just keep it for a morning toy.

Also have done some desert with it too makes a great desert bike rode it from chiriaco summit to aha quin a while back did great on fuel too.Most of the 500s have a wide ratio gearset.

 

[welldigger00]

One are that no 4stroke will compare to a 2stroke is after a full submarine session at a creek crossing. With a 2stroke its a 20 minute deal, then you're riding again. Then at home it's a 2 hour deal to flush the trans. Submarine a4stroke? Go get the truck.

 

[DC-88]

A lot of guys are mentioning KTM in this thread. I have owned KTM's in the past. Great bikes. The 525 will be strong but it is heavy. The 2 stroke 300 with the electric start is about as perfect as you can get. I have a few buddies that are buying the last year of the CR250 2 strokes along with the YZ 250 2 stroke. They are setting them up for desert. Solid bikes that are a blast to ride.

Me and my boys have 3 - last year green sticker 250 2 strokes set up for desert and what I like most is the easy maintainence that I grew up doing. I think for tracks a new 450 is the way to go. I've got the mid size IMS tank, 18" rear, and with a race gas heavy mix 927 32:1 , to be able to run it dry and let it sit for 6 months , and then have it good to go is priceless. The new 4 strokes I had were always causing me little problems due to sitting even though I tried to stay on top of it. KTM 2 stroke 300 would be my choice for new also, but it just all depends on what it's gonna be used for.

 

[pwerwagn]

Ive had quite a few of both. CR500's, YZ490's, XR500/600, KTM 380mxc, 60's/70's husky 250/360 can am 400 qualifier, to all sorts of newer stuff. My absolute favorite bike I have ever owned was a YZ250 all around. I currently have a 450 KTM SX. It runs good, its faster, but I don't have as much fun on it. I HATE starting it. I cringe at the thought of how much it will cost me when anything fails. It eats up chains/sprockets much faster than my 2 strokes did. I hate changing the oil.

I miss the 250. I would put gas in it and ride it. That's it. I think my next bike will be either a Husky 300WR or a KTM 300 EXC. Ideally with a street plate.

 

[oldschool]

You could make a 2 stroke 500 a cool desert bike, but I would prefer a 2 stroke 250 for tighter, more technical, single track stuff. On a track I can't even imagine they compare. I've never ridden a 2 stroke 500 on the track but know guys that have and it's more of a badge of courage than a logical choice. Most guys would be much faster, lap time wise, on a 450. Hell, most guys are faster on a 250 4 stroke than a 450, or at least as fast. With that said, I'm selling my CRF450 and I'm going to start riding a CR250 2 stroke. So, if anyone is looking for a nice 450 check the "for sale" section. Shameless plug.

 

[welldigger00]

I picked up a YZ250x this year, and it is the ultimate woods/single track bike money can buy. Unbelievable power and handling, not huge power, but useable,tractable power. The suspension is unreal also.

 

[boatdoc55]

Electric start? What's that?

Kick one of these bad boys and it might kick back.

That there is "the good ol' days". Your post went right over the head of these young whipper snappers. Your pic of the Maico is when men were men and the pussies stayed home. Is that a 400 or 501? We rode out of Wheelsmith in Santa Ana and Gary Blandon's Compitions Cycle in San Clemente a lifetime ago.

 

[white tortilla]

Honestly the old 500s are pretty cool for the nostalgia and BSing around the campfire, but most of the new big bore four strokes will whip thier ass in almost any type of riding. I understand the brute power feels like the bike is fast but if you timed yourself riding either one i would bet most guys would be faster on the 450s. The new KTM and Yamaha 450s are rocket ships and you can gear them up to run the speeds in the desert.

Personally i got back on a two stroke last year just for the fun factor, although i was faster on a 450. The KTM 300 is a blast of a bike. This pic was from me in the Parker 250 last year.

 

[Always Floored]

If your about going 100 mph on a straight road, go for a 500 2 smoke. If you are into technical riding, tight trails, big hill climbs, riverbeds etc.... The 4 stroke has much more usable power, and the torque is a great thing to have.

 

[rivrrts429]

On my Yamaha 250F we put WR gearing for 4th & 5th. Had the best of both worlds.

Funny to see the look when I blew by the guys on the long desert straightaways on my little 250 four stroker lol

 

[probablecause]

This (1987)




Did this...




But lots of Coors put me back in front of the bbq

 

[PlumLoco]

I owned and raced a CR500 from 1987 to 1999. Great bikes for most everything that isn't slow trail riding. I am also 6'6" and 280 so it wasn't "too big for me". But in those last few years I wasn't riding very often and the big bore 2 strokes really require you to be on top of your game. They can and will get you in over your head very quickly. Better reliability, better handling, cheaper parts, simpler to maintain for sure, but 4 strokes will always be more tame and be more forgiving.

Just be honest with the kind of riding you are going to do. And if you go CR be sure to check the water pump and sidecase for corrosion. And how do you assess the condition of a modern thumper? Who knows how a used on has been maintained? I'd be nervous buying any thumper used. Just my .02

 

[probablecause]

And if you go CR be sure to check the water pump and sidecase for corrosion.

Best advice. Absolutely amazing how the shaft and parts would turn to crap from sitting.

 

[77charger]

I owned and raced a CR500 from 1987 to 1999. Great bikes for most everything that isn't slow trail riding. I am also 6'6" and 280 so it wasn't "too big for me". But in those last few years I wasn't riding very often and the big bore 2 strokes really require you to be on top of your game. They can and will get you in over your head very quickly. Better reliability, better handling, cheaper parts, simpler to maintain for sure, but 4 strokes will always be more tame and be more forgiving.

Just be honest with the kind of riding you are going to do. And if you go CR be sure to check the water pump and sidecase for corrosion. And how do you assess the condition of a modern thumper? Who knows how a used on has been maintained? I'd be nervous buying any thumper used. Just my .02

The magnesium covers are well known for this and not a problem on the aluminum covers.I know some of the newer aluminum can be used on the older engines too but not all of them.

 

[Mandelon]

What is the deal with red sticker - green sticker? Only allowed certain times of the year in some locations?

 

[yz450mm]

What is the deal with red sticker - green sticker? Only allowed certain times of the year in some locations?

Yup, completely ridiculous.