They cost just $30M each

[rrrr]

Why in hell doesn't California purchase a fleet of DHC-515 firefighting aircraft? Every year fires cause billions in damage and kill people.

It's OK to spend taxpayer money on everything else, but not this?

 

[4Waters]

Why in hell doesn't California purchase a fleet of DHC-515 firefighting aircraft? Every year fires cause billions in damage and kill people.

It's OK to spend taxpayer money on everything else, but not this?

To busy spending our hard earned money on N95 masks from China, homeless and illegal immigrants to waste time on real things

 

[bilz]

Better to share ca taxes with Canada.

 

[oldman]

Probably cheaper to lease than own,

Seriously.

 

[HTTP404]

Those planes wouldn't do a damn bit of good at this point. You can't stop these fires until the wind allows it.

 

[4Waters]

Probably cheaper to lease than own,

Seriously.

I think the lease is 10m a year and they have been leasing 2 of them for 30 years

 

[hallett21]

Better to share ca taxes with Canada.

Probably cheaper to lease than own,

Seriously.

That used to be the excuse. The billions in property damage and spent resources makes it a terrible reason.

You can’t justify the losses by showing you saved a few bucks leasing vs owning.

 

[oldman]

I think the lease is 10m a year and they have been leasing 2 of them for 30 years

Flat rate 10 mil, and they repair and maintain. May not be a bad deal. Known cost.

Side note, I watched them draw water out of Puddingstone puddle when they first leased them, we were Jet skiing and they pulled everyone off the lake as the two planes swooped down and drew water. They came in from the East low as hell, and pulled up right at the rock dam.
I swear that has to be the smallest body of water they could draw off of.

 

[Desert Whaler]

What ???? / / / you don't think a high speed train for north of $100 Billiion from nowhere to nowhere would be a better 'investment' ?
What's wrong w/ You Guys ?

 

[rrrr]

Those planes wouldn't do a damn bit of good at this point. You can't stop these fires until the wind allows it.

The idea being to have effective firefighting capabilities before it gets to "this point."

Imagine that, knowing winds were forecast for 60 MPH plus and fire conditions were in play, several of these aircraft were manned and ready when the fire broke out hours ago. You know, when the sun was still shining and it had spread to just a few hundred acres?

 

[Xring01]

The idea being to have effective firefighting capabilities before it gets to "this point."

Imagine that, knowing winds were forecast for 60 MPH plus and fire conditions were in play, several of these aircraft were manned and ready when the fire broke out hours ago. You know, when the sun was still shining and it had spread to just a few hundred acres?

How about getting in front of the problem…
Build fire breaks in the forest and the necessary areas, so you have a chance of putting out a fire…. With out fire breaks and high winds.. literally pissing in the wind.

But that would mean the Libtards would have to fight the tree huggers… We all see how that strategy has played out.

 

[4Waters]

Flat rate 10 mil, and they repair and maintain. May not be a bad deal. Known cost.

Side note, I watched them draw water out of Puddingstone puddle when they first leased them, we were Jet skiing and they pulled everyone off the lake as the two planes swooped down and drew water. They came in from the East low as hell, and pulled up right at the rock dam.
I swear that has to be the smallest body of water they could draw off of.

At Castaic a few years ago, the planes are farther away than they look

 

[EmpirE231]

Because govt can’t do anything right… simple as that.

CA probably has the most fire stations and fire fighter per capita… and I’d bet the highest paid firefighters in the world… yet every-time there is a fire, it gets out of control.

 

[HTTP404]

The idea being to have effective firefighting capabilities before it gets to "this point."

Imagine that, knowing winds were forecast for 60 MPH plus and fire conditions were in play, several of these aircraft were manned and ready when the fire broke out hours ago. You know, when the sun was still shining and it had spread to just a few hundred acres?

Wouldn't make a difference. These fires move so fast under these conditions. They did have fixed wing working this fire before the sun went down.

 

[rrrr]

That used to be the excuse. The billions in property damage and spent resources makes it a terrible reason.

You can’t justify the losses by showing you saved a few bucks leasing vs owning.

They're already spending millions to keep 40 year old helicopters flying, and they only place a fraction of the water that the 515 can.

 

[rrrr]

Wouldn't make a difference. These fires move so fast under these conditions. They did have fixed wing working this fire before the sun went down.

Type, quantity, and water capacity of fixed wing assets? Time to cycle?

 

[HTTP404]

Type, quantity, and water capacity of fixed wing assets? Time to cycle?

Enough to conduct fire fighting theater. In the conditions at hand there is virtually nothing that can be done except try to get people out of the way. The fire jumps half a mile at a time.

 

[oldman]

Because govt can’t do anything right… simple as that.

CA probably has the most fire stations and fire fighter per capita… and I’d bet the highest paid firefighters in the world… yet every-time there is a fire, it gets out of control.

Not calling anyone out.
But after working around many many stations.. in many counties.
Some are more worried about how their uniforms look, and some get shit done.

 

[scottchbrite]

Because govt can’t do anything right… simple as that.

CA probably has the most fire stations and fire fighter per capita… and I’d bet the highest paid firefighters in the world… yet every-time there is a fire, it gets out of control.

You’re right on the first part, and probably right on the rest.

Im not in to making excuses, but we also have the LARGEST wild land/urban interface in the world here, coupled with the worst homeless problem in the world, and a unique climate that adds up to a perfect shit show.
I’d venture to say we dont have enough stations or manpower and money isnt enticing the next generation like you think it would be. Let’s not forget how the state and Feds fail at forest mgmt and fire prevention. The Feds and state are short staffed (current political parties in control?) and can’t hire or retain people and are leaning on local agencies to cover their failures. AND most of us are behind the curve with hiring and retention.

 

[Dog]

You’re right on the first part, and probably right on the rest.

Im not in to making excuses, but we also have the LARGEST wild land/urban interface in the world here, coupled with the worst homeless problem in the world, and a unique climate that adds up to a perfect shit show.
I’d venture to say we dont have enough stations or manpower and money isnt enticing the next generation like you think it would be. Let’s not forget how the state and Feds fail at forest mgmt and fire prevention. The Feds and state are short staffed (current political parties in control?) and can’t hire or retain people and are leaning on local agencies to cover their failures. AND most of us are behind the curve with hiring and retention.

Don't forget environmental "extremists" get in the way of a lot of the management. If someone in charge would fuck them and do what needs to be done it wouldn't be to expensive to take care of these issues.

 

[4Waters]

Don't forget environmental "extremists" get in the way of a lot of the management. If someone in charged would fuck them and do what needs to be done it wouldn't be to expensive to take care of these issues.

The pussies that run our state are just that, pussies

 

[Rvrluvr]

My dad was LA county fireman for 35 years. Growing up all I heard was how every year the fires will get worse. The tree huggers wont let anyone clear brush and its just adding layers of fuel to the ground every year.

 

[socal0487]

How about getting in front of the problem…
Build fire breaks in the forest and the necessary areas, so you have a chance of putting out a fire…. With out fire breaks and high winds.. literally pissing in the wind.

But that would mean the Libtards would have to fight the tree huggers… We all see how that strategy has played out.

Fire breaks with this wind is useless when embers are spotting 1/2-1 mile ahead of itself.

 

[socal0487]

Why in hell doesn't California purchase a fleet of DHC-515 firefighting aircraft? Every year fires cause billions in damage and kill people.

It's OK to spend taxpayer money on everything else, but not this?

California is pretty close to having one of the most robust aerial firefighting fleets in the world. They have 7 c-130 being outfitted right now along with many other aerial assets.

 

[t&y]

It's all in the marketing. If they sold them necessary to protect the illegal immigrants from the fires, all the Libturds and super ultra conservatives would vote to tax the regular citizens of this state to pay for them.

Or they could just stop the free everything bullshit agenda and pay for them outright.

 

[Gramps]

Not calling anyone out.
But after working around many many stations.. in many counties.
Some are more worried about how their uniforms look, and some get shit done.

you have no idea how true that is

 

[JDKRXW]

Better to share ca taxes with Canada.

Usually a bad idea; but these planes get shared all over the place. Saskatchewan has around 8 and depending on the season, they could be anywhere in North or Central America.
To me, lending agreements with these big boys (and these smaller versions: https://www.firebossllc.com/) make great sense.

 

[Taboma]

Two of those same "Quebec" Super Scoopers were working the Palisades Fire for a brief period earlier yesterday, along with a couple of smaller tankers during a short period when the winds had allowed.
The flight tracking for the two Super Scoopers showed them apparently refilling from the sea, making numerous small loops. Then again yesterday afternoon, again during a brief lull.
Yesterday afternoon during a brief lull they flew in a DC-10, as he was following the LEAD plane in for a drop, the two Super Scoopers had returned but were in a holding pattern just east of the fire until the DC-10 had departed. Not sure how long the winds allowed the Scoopers or other planes to work.
Meanwhile the helos seemed to be dropping all day and seem more effective during the higher winds.

The July-August issue of Popular Mechanics featured an extremely interesting article about firefighting aircraft, including a segment told by a seasoned pilot and the conditions they encounter attempting during windy conditions as they circle and maneuver to perform a viable drop, and being forced to return to base without having done so.
The story includes the story of one pilot who crashed.
It's a great read if you can find a copy or have access to an online magazine reader. I'd try to scan it, but gave it to my brother in law.

 

[Xring01]

Fire breaks with this wind is useless when embers are spotting 1/2-1 mile ahead of itself.

OK… So your saying the wind never stops?
Exactly, when the wind does stop, you have a much better strategy to put out the fire, if you ahve fire breaks, and allows vehicles/FF Equipment to get closer to the fires.

When I lived in Murrieta, 4 of my neighbors where fire fighters…
Thats where I learned of the fire break strategy.

To add fuel to fire…
One of my former neighbors “Captain in Temecula” sold his house in Murrieta, moved to Alabama… Would commute to CA work for 20 something days on and 20 something days off… he was planning to do that for 5 years and retire. As far as I know he has 1 year left. When I moved, I lost touch with him.
Should I bring up the guys in Idaho, AZ and…………………

 

[CLdrinker]

How about getting in front of the problem…
Build fire breaks in the forest and the necessary areas, so you have a chance of putting out a fire…. With out fire breaks and high winds.. literally pissing in the wind.

But that would mean the Libtards would have to fight the tree huggers… We all see how that strategy has played out.

Shit environmental will shut that down.

I’m arguing with some ass wipe right now that wants me to guarantee a crew will not step 6” NW of pole when replacing.

6” fuckin inches!!!

 

[HNL2LHC]

Easier to get the 10% back to the big guy through other laundering methods.

 

[socal0487]

OK… So your saying the wind never stops?
Exactly, when the wind does stop, you have a much better strategy to put out the fire, if you ahve fire breaks, and allows vehicles/FF Equipment to get closer to the fires.

When I lived in Murrieta, 4 of my neighbors where fire fighters…
Thats where I learned of the fire break strategy.

To add fuel to fire…
One of my former neighbors “Captain in Temecula” sold his house in Murrieta, moved to Alabama… Would commute to CA work for 20 something days on and 20 something days off… he was planning to do that for 5 years and retire. As far as I know he has 1 year left. When I moved, I lost touch with him.
Should I bring up the guys in Idaho, AZ and…………………

Obviously it’s a sensitive subject to you. Did you ask how much OT they made? I guess you have it figured out though. Make Swiss cheese of the open space.

 

[gqchris]

The same reason people are too cheap to pay for Security for their PC's or Backup their data.

They assume it will "never happen to them".

 

[scottchbrite]

And supposedly the mayor is in Africa.
Poor leadership is almost always the root of the problem.

 

[oldschool]

Because Newsome and the people running the state are fucking retards.

 

[4Waters]

California is pretty close to having one of the most robust aerial firefighting fleets in the world. They have 7 c-130 being outfitted right now along with many other aerial assets.

The problem is that those have to land to refill their water, a single super scooper will out perform 5 of those per hour

 

[TPC]

I thought Newsom bought a few of them.
Evidently not.
Need dozens of them.

 

[HALLETT BOY]

I love it when after about 5 days of Ca burning to the ground , after the weather service predicted to the minute the winds starting up , we have a multi media press conference with about 100 city hall and fire dept personnel including the Battalion chief explaining how again they got caught with their pants down again this fire season . Anyone who has lived in So Cal any lenth of time knows the fire season will start like clockwork. Why can we not have a fleet of C 130 ‘s , some converted Ariel tankers and super scoopers etc stationed at Edward’s or Mojave ? Instead we have to listen to some lame ass excuse that a requisition has been put in to Canada for an Ariel tanker and it’s in flight . Meanwhile billions are spent on feeble attempts to try to extinguish the fires . We also need to go back to cutting fire breaks , thin some dead Forrest areas and stop building next to scrub brush .

 

[4Waters]

I love it when after about 5 days of Ca burning to the ground , after the weather service predicted to the minute the winds starting up , we have a multi media press conference with about 100 city hall and fire dept personnel including the Battalion chief explaining how again they got caught with their pants down again this fire season . Anyone who has lived in So Cal any lenth of time knows the fire season will start like clockwork. Why can we not have a fleet of C 130 ‘s , some converted Ariel tankers and super scoopers etc stationed at Edward’s or Mojave ? Instead we have to listen to some lame ass excuse that a requisition has been put in to Canada for an Ariel tanker and it’s in flight . Meanwhile billions are spent on feeble attempts to try to extinguish the fires . We also need to go back to cutting fire breaks , thin some dead Forrest areas and stop building next to scrub brush .

They missed the winds by about a day, they changed when the winds were gonna show up about 12hrs before the showed up

 

[Sportin' Wood]

Home - Bridger Aerospace

Bridger Aerospace is an aerial firefighting and aerospace services company based in Belgrade, Montana, located at the Bozeman Yellowstone International Airport (KBZN)

bridgeraerospace.com

In Montana we have a lot of privatized firefighting services. Not only aerial like Bridger Aerospace, but down to private brush truck operations with contracted crews.

 

[Taboma]

The problem is that those have to land to refill their water, a single super scooper will out perform 5 of those per hour

The Major difference being, the Super Scoopers drop water, The C-130's drop Fire Retardant.
I know you're well aware of how dropping water offers a quick quench, but quickly evaporates, the Retardant a long lasting barrier, with the goal of confinement or at least slowing the fires progress.
I vote we get more heavy lift Sikorsky's and start training far more of the National Guard to utilized their heavy lift Helos.

 

[4Waters]

The Major difference being, the Super Scoopers drop water, The C-130's drop Fire Retardant.
I know you're well aware of how dropping water offers a quick quench, but quickly evaporates, the Retardant a long lasting barrier, with the goal of confinement or at least slowing the fires progress.
I vote we get more heavy lift Sikorsky's and start training far more of the National Guard to utilized their heavy lift Helos.

I know what they drop but retardant is supposed to be used ahead of the fire not on the fire, both are top assets and needed but what we need direct attack aircraft as much as indirect attack.

 

[Taboma]

I know what they drop but retardant is supposed to be used ahead of the fire not on the fire, both are top assets and needed but what we need direct attack aircraft as much as indirect attack.

No argument from me, I'd support that shit all day long over pissing it away by the billions to Change Weather, how about we learn how to better defend ourselves and buy more tools to accomplish it.

 

[Angler]

Home - Bridger Aerospace

Bridger Aerospace is an aerial firefighting and aerospace services company based in Belgrade, Montana, located at the Bozeman Yellowstone International Airport (KBZN)

bridgeraerospace.com

In Montana we have a lot of privatized firefighting services. Not only aerial like Bridger Aerospace, but down to private brush truck operations with contracted crews.

Because Montana is worth saving, Ca is not!

 

[Sportin' Wood]

Because Montana is worth saving, Ca is not!

Bridger operates all over, they have a base in Italy I believe. One call and they will fly to California if they are willing to pay the bill.

We are investors FWIW. The founder is also our new Senator. LOL

 

[rrrr]

California is pretty close to having one of the most robust aerial firefighting fleets in the world. They have 7 c-130 being outfitted right now along with many other aerial assets.

While it's great Cal Fire will someday be able to use these aircraft, they are of limited value in wildfires. The primary issue is that they must land and be refilled with water and retardant after each drop. Apparently right now there's not enough water in the DWP system to feed hydrants in the fire areas, and storage tanks are dry. How does that affect aerial operations?

Having to land and refill after every drop increases cycle times to maybe one an hour if everything goes well, but that's a reach. Compare this to CL-515 cycle times. Those aircraft can perform two or three per hour when a body of water is within a few miles. That exceeds the amount of water and retardant a C-130 drops in one load.

Maintenance on the C-130s will approach four times the cost of operating the CL-515. They're more than 30 years old. Many parts will have to be provided by the Air Force, taken from mothballed planes in Tucson. They have four large turboprop engines compared to two smaller engines on the CL-515. That means more than double the fuel burn and maintenance costs.

Cal Fire received the planes from the Air Force for "free." You know, like free boats. They cost taxpayers about $50 million in 2024 dollars when new, and converting them to tankers has cost about $28 million per aircraft. The CL-515 purchase price is around $30 million.

 

[Cobalt232]

Two of those same "Quebec" Super Scoopers were working the Palisades Fire for a brief period earlier yesterday, along with a couple of smaller tankers during a short period when the winds had allowed.
The flight tracking for the two Super Scoopers showed them apparently refilling from the sea, making numerous small loops. Then again yesterday afternoon, again during a brief lull.
Yesterday afternoon during a brief lull they flew in a DC-10, as he was following the LEAD plane in for a drop, the two Super Scoopers had returned but were in a holding pattern just east of the fire until the DC-10 had departed. Not sure how long the winds allowed the Scoopers or other planes to work.
Meanwhile the helos seemed to be dropping all day and seem more effective during the higher winds.

The July-August issue of Popular Mechanics featured an extremely interesting article about firefighting aircraft, including a segment told by a seasoned pilot and the conditions they encounter attempting during windy conditions as they circle and maneuver to perform a viable drop, and being forced to return to base without having done so.
The story includes the story of one pilot who crashed.
It's a great read if you can find a copy or have access to an online magazine reader. I'd try to scan it, but gave it to my brother in law.

View attachment 1467302

The Bae 146... I used to fly on the PSA's 146's lots... Good tough airplanes. And that cool tail cone speedbrake...

 

[socal0487]

The problem is that those have to land to refill their water, a single super scooper will out perform 5 of those per hour

C130 can also carry 2.5x the amount of gallons than the super scoopers. 4000 compared to 1500. C130 can be loaded with phoschek and used to strengthen control lines ahead of fire. Super scoopers cannot. They just bomb a flank and dump their water over a 1/4 mile on an active fire flank. They cannot get into tight canyons. Fixed wing have many limitations. I would take a Firehawk helicopter that can carry 1000 gallons over super scoopers any day. Can hover and drop precisely in certain areas and in tight canyons.

 

[4Waters]

C130 can also carry 2.5x the amount of gallons than the super scoopers. 4000 compared to 1500. C130 can be loaded with phoschek and used to strengthen control lines ahead of fire. Super scoopers cannot. They just bomb a flank and dump their water over a 1/4 mile on an active fire flank. They cannot get into tight canyons. Fixed wing have many limitations. I would take a Firehawk helicopter that can carry 1000 gallons over super scoopers any day. Can hover and drop precisely in certain areas and in tight canyons.

A super scooper can dump 20k gallons of water and hour depending on the available water source. The c130 can do 4k an hour if the airport is close. Post 42. We don't need 40 c130's, 20 is good and 20 super scoopers best of both worlds

 

[socal0487]

While it's great Cal Fire will someday be able to use these aircraft, they are of limited value in wildfires. The primary issue is that they must land and be refilled with water and retardant after each drop. Apparently right now there's not enough water in the DWP system to feed hydrants in the fire areas, and storage tanks are dry. How does that affect aerial operations?

Having to land and refill after every drop increases cycle times to maybe one an hour if everything goes well, but that's a reach. Compare this to CL-515 cycle times. Those aircraft can perform two or three per hour when a body of water is within a few miles. That exceeds the amount of water and retardant a C-130 drops in one load.

Maintenance on the C-130s will approach four times the cost of operating the CL-515. They're more than 30 years old. Many parts will have to be provided by the Air Force, taken from mothballed planes in Tucson. They have four large turboprop engines compared to two smaller engines on the CL-515. That means more than double the fuel burn and maintenance costs.

Cal Fire received the planes from the Air Force for "free." You know, like free boats. They cost taxpayers about $50 million in 2024 dollars when new, and converting them to tankers has cost about $28 million per aircraft. The CL-515 purchase price is around $30 million.

Super scoopers have many limitations. I would take a fleet of fixed wing (DC10, DC8, C130) for retardant drops on control lines ahead of fire and a fleet of Sikorsky Firehawks that can be used on active parts of fire. Get rid of the super scoopers.