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the REAL offshore thread.....

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retaocleg

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i come across vids daily from the days when offshore was real, not the close to shore, fan friendly stuff.......4-8 footers from 2000 and before
and i will post for nostalgia.........some will like, like me, but others? who gives a shit.......just clips as i see them, not full races
disclaimer: i have a soft spot for apache and fountain
 
Mcob25rg

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I would do ANYTHING to get a ride in one of these monster’s in really rough water!
 
Drew

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I wish I could afford to keep barking my drive like that. Those tachometers must wave been waving at them
 
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retaocleg

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2004 pissing contest between outerlimits and fountain.......post 2000, but came across, thought i'd share the banter......
 
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retaocleg

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2014 outerlimits kilo......180 mph

 
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Backlash

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Man, you had me at "Apache!" 😍

There is no equal! Yes, there may be boats that are faster or lighter with the same power, but there aren't many built the way an Apache is. For those boats to have been raced HARD, repowered numerous times over, repainted and renamed, and STILL be around today, is impressive!! Fountain, Outerlimits, Cigarette, etc. They are all great boats, but I'll stick with the wave crushing abilities of the classic straight bottom, flat transom Apaches. 👍
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can only think of one structural problem with an Apache throughout the years. That was Ben Kramer's boat as it was recently cruising back into some nasty water at Haulover Inlet.
 
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retaocleg

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- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
youtu.be youtu.be

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
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Backlash

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I've got numerous photo albums from races in Key West "Back in the day." I'll have to look for them and post up some pics. 👍
 
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retaocleg

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Backlash said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can only think of one structural problem with an Apache throughout the years. That was Ben Kramer's boat as it was recently cruising back into some nasty water at Haulover Inlet.
Click to expand...

ben kramers old 47......
apache crack.jpeg
 
Tank

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First off. No offense but comparing fountain and Apache? Mmmmm, no. Totally different animals. Reggie took full advantage of the courses when they moved closer to land, in calmer water, started stepping bottoms and laying them up LIGHT at which time he started dominating. But this was after apaches heyday

Apaches were purpose built for heavy offshore running. Huge stringers and bulkheads. Just remember, as many sometimes forget - The 41 Apache started as a cigarette mold purchased by Bobby saccenti (the original 41 warpath and subsequent apaches were all cigarette per se) purchased from don Aronow himself. I love Apache’s as much as the next guy. But cigarette was around 10 years prior to Apache and I’d be as bold to say Apache wouldn’t be what they were without cigarette.



Now on the topic of fountain and the Catalina run.

Andy Copland (who subsequently had a a bad ass 41 Apache a few years ago) put a couple turbines in an
Old canopies fountain and ran the Catalina run. This video is pretty bad ass and I dig Andy’s voice over. They hit some big water and air that focker out


 
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Tank

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And if you’ve ever wondered about the absolute convoluted history of Apache…the is the most clear explanation about it you’ll most likely ever get. From the man himself and a follow up by an enthusiast.


Bobby;

"I founded Apache Powerboats in 1978 when I started tooling my 21’, 33’ & 39’ boat line. I incorporated Apache Powerboats and went into production in 1980. At the same time I also owned and operated Race Headquarters, Inc., a custom Hi-Performance center and I also co-owned Hawk Marine Power.

In 1982, I brought the Kramer’s into Apache as my partners, sold my interest in Hawk Marine Power and absorbed Race Headquarters, its crew and all its equipment into Apache. The first order of business was to produce the baddest wave buster’s money could buy. Since the tooling for my new 39’ offshore was still months away from completion, I went to the King himself, Don Aronow, and made arrangements to purchase a new 41’ mold he had just completed. The first boat out of the mold was blue and tan and Benny called it “Warpath”. My original Race Headquarters crew rigged Warpath and off we went for sea trial. Ben and I ran Warpath offshore through some of the heaviest seas imaginable at over 90 miles per hour. Ben and I knew immediately that we had built a real winner. We entered Warpath in the APBA Open Class and won the Key West World Championship in 1984. The original factory team was Ben Kramer – Driver, Bob Saccenti – Throttles, and Tom Evans – Navigator. In 1985 we took Second in the Key West U.I.M. Worlds, with the red “Team Apache”.

Ben and I were now racing around the world with APBA & U.I.M. to promote Apache Powerboats. Because of our demanding race schedule we decided to contract Bobby Moore to rig all of our 41’ production and to serve as Crew Chief on our race team. In 1985, I ended my partnership with the Kramer’s on a friendly note agreeing to share the name Apache. I called my company Apache Performance Boats; he kept my original name, Apache Powerboats. Even though we were now two separate companies, we continued to act as one, sharing boat show space and tooling. We also continued to race as a team for promotion of the name. In 1986, we won the National Championship and were awarded the coveted US1 in our “prototype” catamaran “Team Apache”. That was also the year we introduced the new 47’ triple engine Apache Superboat.

In 1987, things started to fall apart. The Kramer’s had major legal problems and the government seized all their assets including Fort Apache Marina and Apache Powerboats. The government hand picked one of Ben’s employees to run the company while they completed their investigation. Some of Ben’s employees were involved with Ben’s problems, some left, and new people were hired. With the new star employee running things, the first order of his business was to disassemble the last 41’ Bobby Moore rigged and copy all measurements and systems and make jigs and templates to duplicate Bobby Moore’s genius. Bobby Moore has never gotten over this to this day.

Many years passed and it was business as usual for me. Around 1996, the government auctioned all the Kramer’s assets. The only thing they did not sell was the Florida Trademark for Apache and the Apache Powerboat name. I did not think about it at the time because my Apache Trademark, although slightly different, is a Federal Trademark. From time to time my attorney in Washington would inquire about the State trademark and was always told “it’s not for sale”. Well, SURPRISE – SURPRISE. After one such inquiry, I was advised that the same STAR EMPLOYEE had just purchased the Florida Trademark from the same “it’s not for sale” government for a couple hundred bucks. What a success story, the employee gets to own the company. Yeah.

Now the real confusion.

With Apache Powerboats & Apache Performance Boats already sharing the market, the old retired 41’ molds were purchased at auction for 12k and re-sold to a company in Ohio that advertised that they could build the “41’ Apache for half the price”. Also, the star employee moved to the other coast and started to produce boats by Xerox under another tribal name and when I wasn’t looking he slid a few Apache’s in for good measure. Personally, I think he should have named his company “High Dollar Lead Sleds, Inc.”. Additionally, in the early – mid 90’s, a Miami based company made a very, very bad copy of the 41’. They changed the bottom, cut the sheer, and the first time in the water the boat rolled in its first turn. The molds were stacked and stored in the sun and weather out in the yard to never be used again. Just recently those same molds were sold to an individual in Blountstown, Florida who is now saying he is the “New Apache”. What a joke. I wouldn’t use those molds for a flower pot.

All of this would have surely brought tears to Geronimo’s eyes.

Also, rumor has it that I sold out, died, left town, closed up and went out of business and so on. WRONG. NONE OF THE ABOVE

All that I have written here can easily be verified and I know, I lived it.

If you have any questions please call or fax me. I do better on the phone than the keyboard. The resin makes my fingers stick to the keys.

Also, thanks to all the Apache owners who put the TLC and money into keeping their Apache in tip top shape and promoting the heritage.

Best regards,

Bob Saccenti"


More info:

Bobby bought the original molds from Don Aronow and began producing the Apache 41. No boats had been pulled from that tooling prior to that purchase. Under Bobby and Ben Kramer, Apache built race and pleasure versions of the boat. Each one was different like custom boats all typically are. Not only could you get it any way you wanted, you could get any weight (within reason) you wanted.

If you wanted it really fast, you could get a light layup and a paper thin deck, etc. Also, "back then", production was a little different. On a standard layup a pleasure Apache will have some variance in weight, maybe as much as a thousand pounds or so, due to more or less resin and cloth going in various places. The standard Apache hull is laid up like the original Cigarette's. They're made to last, that's why so many people like to call them "resin buckets". Apache and Cigarette built boats like the Amish build barns. Not so much what we call "High Tech" now, but what they knew they wouldn't break from decades of experience. Unlike today's boats, they were built old-school. Resin and cloth, and lots of it. No composites, no balsa or foam cores, no carbon, no honeycombs.

As far as "different 41's", you have the original "Saccenti built" boats and then the Apaches built once Mark McManus took over the company. McManus then built a boat called the Comanche 42 which Bob references. Believe it or not they were even heavier than the 41's. Great ride but not all that highly regarded in the Apache community. The short of it is that Apache really doesn't build boats and hasn't for some time. They do alot of restorations.

A few years back a money guy by the name of Thad Allen thought he could just begin building boats under the name Apache. He thought he could litigate and get the name. While that was going on he went ahead and built some very fancy CNC molds and set up shop. Long story that I know very little of, but he lost in court and shut everything down. Those molds eventally ended up in the hands of Pantera who has produced a couple boats from them.

Another company called Saber got ahold of of some 41 molds and began producing a 41. Nice boat and pretty well built up here. They also have the original 47 molds but have built none, (I've heard rumors one is in the works now). This is the company Bob references as the "Ohio company" but they're really here in Michigan. If anyone picked up where Bob left off, it's probably Saber.

There are some "splashed" molds of the 41 floating around but I don't believe anyone has produced a boat from them. An apache copy was built a few years back. Boat was called White Lightning. It was a custom one-off and built by someone not all that well known. Very nicely built, but there's only one and it's not an Apache.

So as far as different versions-

Saccenti built 41(few of them)

McManus built 41(most of them)

McManus built 42 Comanche (not an Apache but based on the 41, not sure how many)

Saber built 41 (not an Apache but from the molds. I see them up here all the time as friends have a couple of them)

Thad A. built 41 Apache (none made)

41 Pantera (nothing really Apache about it other than the name connection)

Various copies and splashes (unknown, White Lightning is the best known)

So there really aren't that many options in a real Apache 41. It comes down to the various full-stagger ex-raceboats and in pleasure boats the side-by-sides or the short-stagger boats. Then the various splashes and "tributes".
 
HgH Vltg

HgH Vltg

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I'm biased since I have one, but for a little 28', it can certainly handle some rough water...

 
HubbaHubbaLife

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Tank said:
First off. No offense but comparing fountain and Apache? Mmmmm, no. Totally different animals. Reggie took full advantage of the courses when they moved closer to land, in calmer water, started stepping bottoms and laying them up LIGHT at which time he started dominating. But this was after apaches heyday

Apaches were purpose built for heavy offshore running. Huge stringers and bulkheads. Just remember, as many sometimes forget - The 41 Apache started as a cigarette mold purchased by Bobby saccenti (the original 41 warpath and subsequent apaches were all cigarette per se) purchased from don Aronow himself. I love Apache’s as much as the next guy. But cigarette was around 10 years prior to Apache and I’d be as bold to say Apache wouldn’t be what they were without cigarette.



Now on the topic of fountain and the Catalina run.

Andy Copland (who subsequently had a a bad ass 41 Apache a few years ago) put a couple turbines in an
Old canopies fountain and ran the Catalina run. This video is pretty bad ass and I dig Andy’s voice over. They hit some big water and air that focker out


Click to expand...
Oh man that vid from recent Catalina Fun Run was brutal.... I understand better now about the bigger boats running faster and how it can cause all these issues. My little 30' wouldn't do much more than 35 in best of swells when I'd enjoy jumping and soft landings. Tank, These big boys like yours and Dan's can go so much faster that it causes issues.... I see why they call it 'A shake down"....and he didn't even make it to backside .... think I'll go ice my neck after watching that.
 
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HubbaHubbaLife said:
Oh man that vid from recent Catalina Fun Run was brutal.... I understand better now about the bigger boats running faster and how it can cause all these issues. My little 30' wouldn't do much more than 35 in best of swells when I'd enjoy jumping and soft landings. Tank, These big boys like yours and Dan's can go so much faster that it causes issues.... I see why they call it 'A shake down"....and he didn't even make it to backside .... think I'll go ice my neck after watching that.
Click to expand...

That on board bow video was not from the Catalina Fun Run. It was the weekend after during the Ocean Cup race; Huntington to Catalina around the island and back to Huntington. It was a very rough and big water day.
 
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