The great Debate Gas VS Diesel.

[CLdrinker]

Here is a great comparison for new buyers to help make their decision on what works best for them.
Keep in mind if money and potential repairs out of warranty don’t concern you then their is no decision to make.
But some of us have budgets so this test really helps in our purchase decisions.

For me I rarely drive my truck so the MPG benefit would never pencil out, I plan on keeping this truck a very long time so reliability and future repair cost are important. But the biggest factor was I didn’t want finance so my wallet was the deciding factor.

Note the Diesel had 35’s vs the gas 34’s. And the gasser didn’t have the best axle ratio available which is 4:30.

 

[Racey]

With all of the emissions garbage, and the shitty high pressure pumps, It really makes justifying a new diesel hard to do.

We have gone backwards.

 

[CLdrinker]

With all of the emissions garbage, and the shitty high pressure pumps, It really makes justifying a new diesel hard to do.

We have gone backwards.

Shit diesel fuel don’t help. Imagine pay 10k more for the diesel up charge then the fuel pump taking shit out of warranty and you pay another 10k to replace it.

Potential 20k more to be up the hill 2 seconds faster and 2mpg better.

Now if you’re towing over 16-17k you don’t really get a choice. But under that gas makes allot of sense for us poor folk.

 

[Xring01]

With all of the emissions garbage, and the shitty high pressure pumps, It really makes justifying a new diesel hard to do.

We have gone backwards.

Thats why I refuse to own a diesel with all that shit that fails/clogs/destroys the engine, including the half tons pick ups or cars.

But I drive a GMC 6.6 diesel… and its a purpose built beast, to meet my needs.

I was not even considering owning a tow hauler, until I got this truck. Which opened the doors to buying the toy hauler.

Put new wheels and tires on it last week.

 

[CLdrinker]

Thats why I refuse to own a diesel with all that shit that fails/clogs/destroys the engine, including the half tons pick ups or cars.

But I drive a GMC 6.6 diesel… and its a purpose built beast, to meet my needs.

I was not even considering owning a tow hauler, until I got this truck. Which opened the doors to buying the toy hauler.

Put new wheels and tires on it last week.

View attachment 1311574

Deleted?

 

[Xring01]

Deleted?

And more…
I live in a NV county that does not require smog.

The ownly way I would consider a newer diesel truck. If I was a business owner, who towed over 10,000lbs multiple times per week, and my business was profitable enough to buy/expense it, pay it off in 48 months, (hopefully before warranty expires) then flip it into a new one… Even then it would be a hard pill to swallow. Considering how many people I know who own these bastards and how much time they spend at the dealer…

Neighbors 2022 Dodge 2500 Laramie 6.7 will be Lemon Lawed his next visit to the dealer. They are trying one last thing to solve the emissions problem that puts it in limp mode… His truck runs flawless with 14,000lbs behind it… Disconnect the trailer… drive 8 miles.. and limp mode… LOL…

 

[monkeyswrench]

I really like the way a new Ford diesel runs. Deleted or stock, they run pretty good. They feel like a gas motor in a way, turbo lag is minimal, throttle response is good.
The repair costs are off the chart though. Labor is labor, and both the gasser and diesel are not fun to work on. The biggest issue is the actual parts. If I were able to buy a new truck, it would probably be a gasser. Less expensive parts, and from what I've been seeing, less prone to needing them.

 

[bonesfab]

This whole emissions thing on diesels really killed them. When a old 12v cummins will get 25 mpg and run forever. Then you load a new 6.7 up with emissions crap and they get 12 if you are lucky, Doesn't that have the opposite effect on emissions?? Burning twice the fuel has got to be dirtier but what do I know. Just like the DEF crap. After producing, packaging, distributing and then all the trash from the discarded containers, How much do you really think that helps the enviroment. Just like the fucking windmills.

 

[AZLineman]

I have a couple 2000 diesels one Cummins and one 7.3 both crazy low miles and they are so simple and easy to work on. If I was going to buy new which I just may next year depending on the state of the union I would buy gas. 6.6 Chevy with the Allison in a 3500 crew SB.

 

[charred1]

I’m more worried about all the new tech electronics in my truck versus the engine/tranny.

 

[X Hoser]

After all of the DEF System issues I’ve had with my truck I‘ll go gas next time for sure. I don’t pull real heavy loads much anymore so the need for a diesel is minimal. Gas vs diesel is most often a dollar less. The new gas engines seem to last longer than they ever have before? Everyone is quick to say “delete”, but that comes with ramifications too. I also just spoke with a diesel repair shop and he said the mechanics hate working on GMC’s. He said the Fords and Dodges will always get worked on first. GMCs, only if no other work is available. IMO, DEF has ruined the appeal of Diesel engines!

 

[Willie B]

… Pretty big reason why I will never sell my 97 dodge ram 12 valve Cummins… Easy to work on… And I am in California, and no smog…
… I almost forgot… I keep the catalytic converter in my garage… had it removed… Later a guy pulled up, hopped out of his car and rolled under my truck scoping it out to steal the cat.., so screw him, and any future cat thieves…

 

[sintax]

With all of the emissions garbage, and the shitty high pressure pumps, It really makes justifying a new diesel hard to do.

We have gone backwards.

thats where i'm at with it.

we took something good and made them overly complicated, prone to failure, and prohibitively expensive.

I'd be hard pressed to buy a new diesel,

 

[bonesfab]

we took something good and made them overly complicated, prone to failure, and prohibitively expensive.

Just like everytime the Guberment gets involved.

 

[Xring01]

After all of the DEF System issues I’ve had with my truck ‘ll go gas next time forsake. I don’t pull real heavy loads much anymore so the need for a diesel is minimal. Gas vs diesel is most often a dollar less. The new gas engines seem to last longer than they ever have before? Everyone is quick to say “delete”, but that comes with ramifications too. I also just spoke with a diesel repair shop and he said the mechanics hate working on GMC’s. He said the Fords and Dodges will always get worked on first. GMCs, only if no other work is available. IMO, DEF has ruined the appeal of Diesel engines!

My 2002 GMC 2500 Crew Cab 4x4 DMax, sold it with 240K plus miles on it. I had to replace upper A Arms, because ball joints where shot. Cheaper to buy A Arms than labor to press out/in new ball joints. Replaced the O Ring in the diesel fuel primer thingy… It was on the original factory injectors… cause I ran 1/4 oz of 2 stroke oil/gallon of diesel… Ran the fuck out of that truck. Never failed me once.

Thats a key reason why I own the truck pictured above. Once you delete a 6.6 DMax your pretty good to go. Short block of the engines has not really changed much. The newer they get the more shit get installed.. which is why you delete them. Everyone knows the Allison transmission is the best… thats not debateble in my opinion..LOL..

Pretty much every knows the typical front end parts that need to be replaced at 250k miles… Go on the DMax forums… lots guys with very high mileage 6.6 still going strong. To me the 6.6DMax has treated me right for many many many many years. Thats the reason I own what I have right now, I expect this truck to last me a very long time, hopefully its my last truck. I doubt I will wear it out. So hopefully I dont get into an accident. Cause I doubt I would ever be able to replace this truck the way it sits right now, for what I have into it.

 

[mesquito_creek]

What about more than doubling the horsepower and torque on a V configuration diesels? Then expecting them to run as long as 7.3 fords and 12v Cummins with half the HP/TQ and compression?

The pain of figuring out emissions will go away in time just like the pain the gassers had to go through to figure out emissions, but the demand for more HP/TQ will keep hurting the economics..

 

[pkrrvr619]

My 2002 GMC 2500 Crew Cab 4x4 DMax, sold it with 240K plus miles on it. I had to replace upper A Arms, because ball joints where shot. Cheaper to buy A Arms than labor to press out/in new ball joints. Replaced the O Ring in the diesel fuel primer thingy… It was on the original factory injectors… cause I ran 1/4 oz of 2 stroke oil/gallon of diesel… Ran the fuck out of that truck. Never failed me once.

Thats a key reason why I own the truck pictured above. Once you delete a 6.6 DMax your pretty good to go. Short block of the engines has really changed much. The newer they get the more shit get installed.. which is why you delete them. Everyone knows the Allison transmission is the best… thats not debateble in my opinion..LOL..

Pretty much every knows the typical front end parts that need to be replaced at 250k miles… Go on the DMax forums… lots guys with very high mileage 6.6 still going strong. To me the 6.6DMax has treated me right for many many many many years. Thats the reason I own what I have right now, I expect this truck to last me a very long time, hopefully its my last truck. I doubt I will wear it out. So hopefully I dont get into an accident. Cause I doubt I would ever be able to replace this truck the way it sits right now, for what I have into it.

i could have written this myself, you described what owning an lb7 is to a tee. front suspension and primer rebuilt kit this year.

my old lb7 i keep around for a haul truck.

our diesel yukon tows the boat great and gets 31 mpg highway not towing. good power with the 10 speed.

sure beats the hell out of the 5.3 yukon i previously had...

 

[sintax]

What about more than doubling the horsepower and torque on a V configuration diesels? Then expecting them to run as long as 7.3 fords and 12v Cummins with half the HP/TQ and compression?

The pain of figuring out emissions will go away in time just like the pain the gassers had to go through to figure out emissions, but the demand for more HP/TQ will keep hurting the economics..

I'd love to hear they found some sort of new way to do emissions on them, but i'm not holding my breath. If the GOVT has their way, the next 10 years will be the last for the ICE.

You bring up some good points on the chase for more HP/TQ, but im not sure thats a direct effect on the price as much as it seems. The diesel option is still around 10k on all the major 3 makes. While i'm sure its played SOME role, i think its just the creazy creature comforts and "safety" shit they've put in these trucks thats really had the biggest impact on the price

 

[monkeyswrench]

... the demand for more HP/TQ will keep hurting the economics..

Sad thing is, the "demand" for bigger numbers is strictly for bragging rights. If they focused on gaining mechanical advantages after the power generation, they wouldn't have to keep dicking around with the emisions. Efficiency doesn't sell, HP does.

 

[Andy B.]

DEF even on the semi's is fucking up the motors and sensors going out all the time pain in the ass!!!!!

 

[CLdrinker]

Sad thing is, the "demand" for bigger numbers is strictly for bragging rights. If they focused on gaining mechanical advantages after the power generation, they wouldn't have to keep dicking around with the emisions. Efficiency doesn't sell, HP does.

Exactly every manufacturer has way more than enough power. They should figure out reliability and efficiency. But that don’t sell. To many people are focused on having the biggest and baddest weather they need it or not.
SxS are a great example. New model comes out with .5hp increase and everyone has to have it

 

[Sportin' Wood]

I've been shopping for a full-size truck for a while; I won't even consider a modern Deisel engine. The emissions crap on our ISL Cummins has made it unreliable, and the DEF on our four cyl DMax is inconvenient and expensive. Seriously, consider a weight loss program for Baby D. New truck costs are really not attractive, however I really like the 2021 Power Wagon. The fuel mileage with the 6.4 Hemi gives me pause, but when I run all the costs of ownership, the fuel mileage is really not a significant delta.

Searching in no particular order twice daily
LBZ
12 valve
7.3
2021 75th Powerwagon with brown leather, green with a sunroof.
Wildcard Bodyswapped dent/bump super or club cab or a 12V swapped 4D C30.

I figure by Spring, I'll find something. $15K-$50K dependent on how beat down. I hope I can land at $30K. It sure beats the price of a new modern diesel truck.

Edit: We don't have emission testing in Montana, so I benefit from that, and older trucks have attractive lifetime registration.

 

[monkeyswrench]

I've been shopping for a full-size truck for a while; I won't even consider a modern Deisel engine. The emissions crap on our ISL Cummins has made it unreliable, and the DEF on our four cyl DMax is inconvenient and expensive. Seriously, consider a weight loss program for Baby D. New truck costs are really not attractive, however I really like the 2021 Power Wagon. The fuel mileage with the 6.4 Hemi gives me pause, but when I run all the costs of ownership, the fuel mileage is really not a significant delta.

Searching in no particular order twice daily
LBZ
12 valve
7.3
2021 75th Powerwagon with brown leather, green with a sunroof.
Wildcard Bodyswapped dent/bump super or club cab or a 12V swapped 4D C30.

I figure by Spring, I'll find something. $15K-$50K dependent on how beat down. I hope I can land at $30K. It sure beats the price of a new modern diesel truck.

Edit: We don't have emission testing in Montana, so I benefit from that, and older trucks have attractive lifetime registration.

ISL's can get "tuned up" as well...so I hear. Have you had to replace the EGR downpipe? That was my first foray into heavies with smog.

 

[Chili Palmer]

I had a 2011 LML Duramax, the first 3½ years I had nothing but problems with the regen, and DEF. Once the warranty was up I deleted and all my problems went away. I did have to replace a handful of glow plugs and one injector. I ran 8oz. of OptiLube XPD at every fill up to keep the CP4 lubed. At 12 years and 310,000 miles maintenance items all came at one time, hoses and belts, new tires, and the radiator started leaking. Earlier that year I spent almost $7k on tracing an electrical short for the trans and replacing an EGR coolant hose including towing. The truck was clean, but with all the miles it only booked for $6k. It got to the point it was like a boat - every time I took it in for service it was at least $1000. The law of diminishing returns was staring right at me so I traded it in for a gas truck.

 

[Ace in the Hole]

thats where i'm at with it.

we took something good and made them overly complicated, prone to failure, and prohibitively expensive.

I'd be hard pressed to buy a new diesel,

My 2020 will be my last most likely at least for a very long time. I bought it to keep for a long time however. In about 35k miles it will "lose some weight" and shed some of the issues we all face. Prices have jumped even more in the last 3 years and you won't see me paying what they want nor playing more and more of the emissions game.. 400/1000 is plenty of power for me, once some shit falls off that shouldn't have been there to begin with it should last a very long time..

If I was in the current market buying a new truck the 7.3 10 speed gas F350 would be my buy...

 

[pronstar]

Even deleted, there’s still pricey injectors and high pressure fuel pumps to deal with.

Then there’s packaging….i really want to like the 3.0 Babymax. It ticks the right boxes at first glance, being an inline motor.

But speaking with some techs, literally everything is an engine-out ordeal, nothing is easy to get to.

And that’s besides the oil-pump belt…GM changed the service reco from “replace” to “inspect” at 150k but if your gonna drop the tranny to even have a look, then what idiot isn’t gonna replace it while they’re in there?

So Im sticking to my gas 5.3 V8. Even tho govt regs have made even a GM V8 unreliable, at least I can hardware-delete it and swap the torque converter and make a meaningful difference in service costs…everything else around the motor is basically a modern SBC

 

[77charger]

I wouldn’t buy a new diesel unless it was for work hauling heavier loads. IMO ford has a good thing with the big gasser which will fill need for quite a few.

I’m a Chevy guy but they lack a true factory big block. They’re newer bigger gasser seems good but it ain’t something that will drag a fifth wheel that good.

 

[NicPaus]

I wouldn’t buy a new diesel unless it was for work hauling heavier loads. IMO ford has a good thing with the big gasser which will fill need for quite a few.

I’m a Chevy guy but they lack a true factory big block. They’re newer bigger gasser seems good but it ain’t something that will drag a fifth wheel that good.

My 6.6 gas is comfortable and good power towing up to 8k. Rated for double but hills will kill you. The freeway miles to the river are great for the size of truck. As it is mainly for the River. 15.7 mpg with no traffic is my best round trip. On long flat straight away the best recorded on the screen shows just over 20mpg. My Duramax LBZ avg was 14.7 mpg but it was lifted.

 

[boatnam2]

Bought a dsl thinking I was going to pick up a 5th wheel, most she will haul now is a 75 pound labradoodle.

 

[HALLETT BOY]

This whole emissions thing on diesels really killed them. When an old 12v cummins will get 25 mpg and run forever. Then you load a new 6.7 up with emissions crap and they get 12 if you are lucky, Doesn't that have the opposite effect on emissions?? Burning twice the fuel has got to be dirtier but what do I know. Just like the DEF crap. After producing, packaging, distributing and then all the trash from the discarded containers, How much do you really think that helps the enviroment. Just like the fucking windmills.

But it makes the politicians that thought up this crap FEEL really good …

 

[ka0tyk]

Gas sucks.

 

[Bakotrash]

I just rented a U-Haul truck that had a 7.3L gas engine.........ran like a bat out of hell! Would I ever sell my 2006 5.9 Cummins 6 spd manual truck to purchase one? Not sure about that, but I would probably never buy a new diesel. I would lease one though, as it would be turned in every 3 years and always under warranty.

 

[CLdrinker]

My 6.6 gas is comfortable and good power towing up to 8k. Rated for double but hills will kill you. The freeway miles to the river are great for the size of truck. As it is mainly for the River. 15.7 mpg with no traffic is my best round trip. On long flat straight away the best recorded on the screen shows just over 20mpg. My Duramax LBZ avg was 14.7 mpg but it was lifted.

Does your 6.6 gas have 10speed?

I was watching some dude I. You tube and he has both the 7.3 and 6.6. Says the 6.6 is better.

 

[CLdrinker]

I wouldn’t buy a new diesel unless it was for work hauling heavier loads. IMO ford has a good thing with the big gasser which will fill need for quite a few.

I’m a Chevy guy but they lack a true factory big block. They’re newer bigger gasser seems good but it ain’t something that will drag a fifth wheel that good.

I have heard good things about the 6.6 gas. There is a Ike video on it. Go check it out.

My 7.3 yanks my 5th wheel around with ease. I was nervous how it would do when I bought the trailer. Realized in the drive home we could have hit a bigger trailer.

 

[CLdrinker]

Gas sucks.

View attachment 1311687

They should bring the 8.1 back and put the 10 speed behind it. I bet it would walk all over the 7.3.

 

[Sportin' Wood]

ISL's can get "tuned up" as well...so I hear. Have you had to replace the EGR downpipe? That was my first foray into heavies with smog.

If I could find a personal trainer who could change the mindset of that ISL, I would sign her up for a fitness program. I've had a lot of DPF-related digestive discomfort and problems. I'm convinced it would be a great rig if it were a year older. Permanent MT registration means she won't have to go in for a medical exam. It's hard to come by the right trainer these days, even in free America.

 

[crzy2bealive]

I'm thinking of getting this as I need a diesel to get back into a 5th wheel.

Link Here - Ram 2500 Used

I really want a truck with a bench seat and a long bed. The less electronics the better lol.

Something for around 45K with low mileage.

 

[CLdrinker]

I'm thinking of getting this as I need a diesel to get back into a 5th wheel.

Link Here - Ram 2500 Used

I really want a truck with a bench seat and a long bed. The less electronics the better lol.

Something for around 45K with low mileage.

I forget what year but the dodges had such a bad run with the CP4 pump
They switched back to the CP3. Maybe the dodge boys can elaborate what year. But I think 2020 or 2021.

 

[bonesfab]

But it makes the politicians that thought up this crap FEEL really good …

And a family member rich who happens to own the business.

 

[NicPaus]

Does your 6.6 gas have 10speed?

I was watching some dude I. You tube and he has both the 7.3 and 6.6. Says the 6.6 is better.

No the 6 speed. My River neighbor has the 10 spd. His screen is huge and nicer dash. Paid $56k plus fees. My MSRP was 54k but I got employee discount for all pricing it was 47.5k plus fees and few extras I had them ad.

His mpg is same as mine on highway. Imagine it tows better though.

 

[PlanB]

My 04 DMax will probably be the last diesel I will own. We went Gas on the wife’s new Suburban. Way too many stories of DEF issues on new diesels. Our buddy that owns a shop recommended going gas over diesel and told me to just bulletproof our old 6.6. I only have 145k on the 6.6 so it will last me a long time. The gas Suburban will tow anything we own now anyways.

 

[Racey]

Sad thing is, the "demand" for bigger numbers is strictly for bragging rights. If they focused on gaining mechanical advantages after the power generation, they wouldn't have to keep dicking around with the emisions. Efficiency doesn't sell, HP does.

They have only power numbers to use as a marketing tool at this point, they are hamstringed by the emissions controls on the mileage.

The bulk of the mileage losses have come from emissions controls, an 800ft/lbs or 1000ft/lbs motor gets the same mileage at cruise.

 

[Sharky]

I’m more worried about all the new tech electronics in my truck versus the engine/tranny.

This.

I still have my original GM Tech2 scanner and a TIS2000 disc. I can go up to 2008 GM. That cost me close to $3000 some 10-20 years ago when I used to swing a wrench for the General to earn a living.


With my new car, I am already looking at my best option to to work on it when warranty expires. First thing I need is the new GM interface/scanner. MDI2, a new lap-top and a subscription to GM SPS. Another $3K+

I have a new MDI2 on its way. Just that was $1K. Still need a new Win10 lap-top and additional subscription to GM SPS.



One freind just bought this last year. $110,000K. He has no idea how to work on it. Told him I will be charging $200 just to connect to his new truck. No testing, diagnostics or repairs. $200 just to connect.

 

[hallett21]

I’ll add that my 16 Cummins would drag my 04 Duramax anywhere it so pleased. So to compare the 2 isn’t fair.

 

[monkeyswrench]

This.

I still have my original GM Tech2 scanner and a TIS2000 disc. I can go up to 2008 GM. That cost me close to $3000 some 10-20 years ago when I used to swing a wrench for the General to earn a living.


With my new car, I am already looking at my best option to to work on it when warranty expires. First thing I need is the new GM interface/scanner. MDI2, a new lap-top and a subscription to GM SPS. Another $3K+

I have a new MDI2 on its way. Just that was $1K. Still need a new Win10 lap-top and additional subscription to GM SPS.



One freind just bought this last year. $110,000K. He has no idea how to work on it. Told him I will be charging $200 just to connect to his new truck. No testing, diagnostics or repairs. $200 just to connect.



View attachment 1311719

A lot of the small shops I've seen are buying "week" subscriptions from GM. If you have a laptop or scanner with the J-tool, you can buy a limited time using their software. I haven't done it yet myself. A few times, I've done tranny swaps and just paid the 200$ to have the dealer do the programming. Two weeks ago my buddy rolled the dice, and paid for the "credits" on HP Tuners...he figured out how to program a trans that way. Basically same cost as dealer charge, but truck didn't need to be taken to dealer.

 

[77charger]

I have heard good things about the 6.6 gas. There is a Ike video on it. Go check it out.

My 7.3 yanks my 5th wheel around with ease. I was nervous how it would do when I bought the trailer. Realized in the drive home we could have hit a bigger trailer.

Just looked at the specs not too bad on torque curve seems to be pretty good from 2000rpm and up.

 

[crzy2bealive]

I forget what year but the dodges had such a bad run with the CP4 pump
They switched back to the CP3. Maybe the dodge boys can elaborate what year. But I think 2020 or 2021.

They went back to cp3 in 2021

 

[lbhsbz]

Sucks gas

View attachment 1311687

yep

 

[Shlbyntro]

They should bring the 8.1 back and put the 10 speed behind it. I bet it would walk all over the 7.3.

If it could refrain from grenading pistons and shooting rods out the bottom... The mkIV BBC is a stronger motor for abusing, the 8.1s were already running at near their mechanical limits in stock form.

 

[monkeyswrench]

If it could refrain from grenading pistons and shooting rods out the bottom... The mkIV BBC is a stronger motor for abusing, the 8.1s were already running at near their mechanical limits in stock form.

If they'd somehow crossbreed the 8.1 and the 6.6...basically an 8.1 with the tech and machining advancements of the 6.6...it would be a pretty badass beast. I'm not much of a Chevy guy, but the 8.1 is a pretty low tech assembly by way of comparison.