Sad state of auto repair

[caribbean20]

3rd time self diagnosing a problem which left the dealer or local repair shop flummoxed. A quick search of auto forums found the root cause of all of my issues. Shows the power of these social networks.

1. ‘12 Jeep Wrangler intermittent engine shut down. Dealer and local shop “I dunno, not throwing any codes.” A quick internet search suggests a failed Crankshaft Location Sensor as the culprit. Went back to repair shop and told them, just replace the dam thing. Problem fixed, no issues since.

2. ‘07 M6. Vibration and noise from rear diff when cold and making sharp turn. Dealer “I dunno, not throwing any codes.” Me “needs an additive, you should have a service bulletin, just do it.” Problem fixed.

3. And my latest, ‘16 Caddy VSport. Intermittent humming noise from motor, both during running and a few seconds after shut off. First trip to dealer . . . you guessed it . . . “I dunno, not throwing any codes. Quick internet search of Caddy forums reveal a “turbo waste gate solenoid” as the culprit, and back to the dealer I go.

I know cars have become much more complicated since we grew up, but this over reliance on “codes” have left these guys much less proficient. And now with cars becoming electric, going to be a lot less talented kids choosing the profession.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Most customers don’t want to pay the $150/hr labor for the dealer to “figure it out”.

2 out of those 3 problems were Jeep and 07 M6 though

 

[WhatExit?]

Really sad but it’s just like going to the doctor

 

[LuauLounge]

Yep, new generation of mechanics. Hook up the diagnostic PC and start replacing parts. If the shop foreman doesn’t have gray hair and looks like he should have retired 5 years ago, you are doomed.

 

[Your ad here]

Another thing that is sad is how much shops are charging for repairs. Thermostat housing on my moms 7.3 psd truck had corrosion on it. Stamp steel outlet bolted to an aluminum water pump. $1100+ to replace the outlet. I bought and installed a Riffraff aluminum outlet and new thermostat for $100 and an hour of my time. In reality I could've wire brushed the outlet and painted it. It wasn't even pitted. All the work was done from the top side. Here's what doesn't make sense, oil cooler can use a reseal. It was like $1500 and the job entails draining the coolant and oil, crawling under the truck to remove the cooler, take apart, clean, and reseal cooler, reinstall, and fill fluids. Probably a 4-5 hour job.

 

[Kachina26]

3rd time self diagnosing a problem which left the dealer or local repair shop flummoxed. A quick search of auto forums found the root cause of all of my issues. Shows the power of these social networks.

1. ‘12 Jeep Wrangler intermittent engine shut down. Dealer and local shop “I dunno, not throwing any codes.” A quick internet search suggests a failed Crankshaft Location Sensor as the culprit. Went back to repair shop and told them, just replace the dam thing. Problem fixed, no issues since.

2. ‘07 M6. Vibration and noise from rear diff when cold and making sharp turn. Dealer “I dunno, not throwing any codes.” Me “needs an additive, you should have a service bulletin, just do it.” Problem fixed.

3. And my latest, ‘16 Caddy VSport. Intermittent humming noise from motor, both during running a a few seconds after shut off. First trip to dealer . . . you guessed it . . . “I dunno, not throwing any codes. Quick internet search of Caddy forums reveal a “turbo waste gate solenoid” as the culprit, and back to the dealer I go.

I know cars have become much more complicated since we grew up, but this over reliance on “codes” have left these guys much less proficient. And now with cars becoming electric, going to be a lot less talented kids choosing the profession.

On number 1, if they had sold you a crankshaft sensor based on a guess and it didn't work, would you be in here complaining that they sold you a part that you didn't need? Same on number 3. It's hard to diagnose an issue when the vehicle isn't doing it. That said, I've told customers when something is a common issue but I can't duplicate the issue and if we go forward it's just an educated guess. Some were good with it, others not.

 

[retaocleg]

mechanics have been replaced by code reading parts changers.......

 

[TimeBandit]

LOL, if codes alone could fix cars.

And now that it is so "simple" even more pushback from the customer for $165./Hour Diag.

Good luck on a CAN BUS communication failure with just a "code" to guide you.

Knowing pattern failures for any given model comes with experience, just how much experience does the tech have?

Gray hair matters!

 

[Ziggy]

Yep, new generation of mechanics. Hook up the diagnostic PC and start replacing parts. If the shop foreman doesn’t have gray hair and looks like he should have retired 5 years ago, you are doomed.

Yup, this started long ago. I'd say mostly once car manufacturers offered factory type training at UTI & similar schools. With BMW they made the dealer pay the schooling costs(among other expenses) if we hired one of these guys. Then these guys expected to paid equal to my 20+ yr master techs. Most weren't worth a shit & were lazy as Fuk.
As said above, most have simply become parts exchangers with zero diagnostic skills....with only a few exceptions.

 

[rivermobster]

Yep, new generation of mechanics. Hook up the diagnostic PC and start replacing parts. If the shop foreman doesn’t have gray hair and looks like he should have retired 5 years ago, you are doomed.

This is possibly the best post I've ever read on RDP...

:bowdown:

 

[caribbean20]

On number 1, if they had sold you a crankshaft sensor based on a guess and it didn't work, would you be in here complaining that they sold you a part that you didn't need? Same on number 3. It's hard to diagnose an issue when the vehicle isn't doing it. That said, I've told customers when something is a common issue but I can't duplicate the issue and if we go forward it's just an educated guess. Some were good with it, others not.

I’m not “in here” complaining about anything, just stating a fact. If a problem is not disclosed by reading a code, how are these guys supposed to find it? Oh, I don’t know, maybe a little experience and doing some research, same as I did.

I don’t complain and I don’t explain.

 

[Ziggy]

I’m not “in here” complaining about anything, just stating a fact. If a problem is not disclosed by reading a code, how are these guys supposed to find it? Oh, I don’t know, maybe a little experience and doing some research, same as I did.

I don’t complain and I don’t explain.

I see technology being to blame to a degree. In the old days TSI bulletins were published(printed) almost daily & each tech was given a copy for reference. They at least saw the headline of each memo when they'd touch 'em to put in binders. Not so nowadays with technology, it automatically is put into a efile for them to reference. No longer is there any kind of trigger to remind them they saw "something" about a particular issue.

 

[LazyLavey]

I once said to a service manager after failure to diagnose an issue "I saw on a forum that the problem may be the --------"...

He gave me that look like, "oh no, not another internet warrior" and basically ignored me....

I wouldn't accuse most of doing this but I do believe some would not bother to do a search on a forum for a possible solution or identify a particular problem..

After all, they're in business and would prefer to charge you for the diagnosis

 

[grumpy88]

On number 1, if they had sold you a crankshaft sensor based on a guess and it didn't work, would you be in here complaining that they sold you a part that you didn't need? Same on number 3. It's hard to diagnose an issue when the vehicle isn't doing it. That said, I've told customers when something is a common issue but I can't duplicate the issue and if we go forward it's just an educated guess. Some were good with it, others not.

I like your honesty and providing a option . What I would choose to do after being provided my option would depend on my financial situation and my trust in you .

 

[hman442]

3rd time self diagnosing a problem which left the dealer or local repair shop flummoxed. A quick search of auto forums found the root cause of all of my issues. Shows the power of these social networks.

1. ‘12 Jeep Wrangler intermittent engine shut down. Dealer and local shop “I dunno, not throwing any codes.” A quick internet search suggests a failed Crankshaft Location Sensor as the culprit. Went back to repair shop and told them, just replace the dam thing. Problem fixed, no issues since.

2. ‘07 M6. Vibration and noise from rear diff when cold and making sharp turn. Dealer “I dunno, not throwing any codes.” Me “needs an additive, you should have a service bulletin, just do it.” Problem fixed.

3. And my latest, ‘16 Caddy VSport. Intermittent humming noise from motor, both during running a a few seconds after shut off. First trip to dealer . . . you guessed it . . . “I dunno, not throwing any codes. Quick internet search of Caddy forums reveal a “turbo waste gate solenoid” as the culprit, and back to the dealer I go.

I know cars have become much more complicated since we grew up, but this over reliance on “codes” have left these guys much less proficient. And now with cars becoming electric, going to be a lot less talented kids choosing the profession.

As a shop owner, I agree and disagree with you. It is sad, that a tech (using the term loosely), can only check for a code, can't look for service bulletins, etc., that's just lazy and/or poor training. The other side of the coin, as was also mentioned, if my shop replaced whatever someone said to, when they said to, because google said to, we'd not have a very happy clientele, as they seem to be wrong most of the time. Most customers would still hold us responsible when the problem was still present, even though they asked for the part to be replaced. Most customers though, do trust us enough, that when the front counter listens to them, then responds with, the "well yes, that could be the issue, but it could also be b,c,d, they will let us diagnose the issue. When they did guess right, I usually eat it some on the diagnostics, I pay my tech his time, but usually don't charge the customer for all of it, to determine his geeker valve was sticking, when that's what he told me from the beginning, even though he was guessing . Cars are complicated, but are still creatures of habit. I subscribe to several databases that keep track of issues, and what the fix is. We rely on them quite a bit, as in, enter the vehicle and the symptom, and the report comes up that 175 of the last 180 cars with that symptom needed "A". That's where we look. Sometimes though, the database shows 30 needed A, 32 needed B, 31 needed C, etc. That's not as helpfull. If it's intermittent, even discussing it and showing them the numbers, and telling them that it's only a guess doesn't work. I've lost customers over that. Like anything, there's no easy answer, no one size fits all. I'm lucky though, I have two very experienced techs, and they help the two less experienced techs, on a weekly, if not daily basis.

 

[dribble]

They get a pass on the first one. The only way they could have diagnosed the Crank Position Sensor intermittently failing would be to throw one at it. And just to be safe they could throw a fuel pump, Fuel pump relay, inversion switch cam sensor and PCM. Or after doing their own internet search they could have said we can throw a part at it and see if it fixes it but of it doesn't it's on your dime.

 

[monkeyswrench]

The "scanner" is a really good tool if used more than just to scan codes. The aforementioned crank position may not light a code, but running, or even cranking, usually shows inconsistencies. Last week I had a no start situation on a 2000 7.3. Scanner on it, cranking. Battery voltage good, HPOP pressure low...rpm 200. Local shop had told him HPOP. The factory starter is supposed to crank at 400+ rpm. If not fast enough, not enough oil pressure for the injectors to fire. Kid did a starter for 180$ and tools he had. He gave me 20$ when he drove the truck by
The scanner is just a tool. It's not the end all be all, just a window to see what's going on. I prefer points and carbs, but had to go with the times...

 

[jetboatperformance]

I'm a 40+ year Certified Master Tech multiple manufacturer factory trained hands on (too many to list) , many dont know but besides JBP I have done and supervised over 60K mechanical forensic damage and failure inspections for 30+ insurance underwriters and warranty contract administrators from Mercedes to Harley , my quest is to try to determine the cause and extent of failure NOT just thats there is a just a failure . The older mechanics and techs are dying off and retiring , much of todays training is "online" and apprenticeships are clearly not what they once were , I was mentored/trained in the 70's by senior Mechanics who knew not how to simply replace parts but how to REPAIR things , Many of todays mechanics and "Technicians" haven't a clue how to build engines , rebuild a transmission or even troubleshoot noises etc They are simply not taught . example: I'm required prior to performing an damage inspection to ask "can your claimed issue be seen and demonstrated" ? (for photos and written reports) , A young Nissan trained "heavy duty" tech I asked about an internal engine failure by me a while back "prior to my arrival can you please pull some rod and main caps , Tech says "Oh no Sir were not trained to do that and I dont know how , we only learned how to replace engines" .... whats the point, Modern vehicles are not made user/owner/Tech friendly, Hell alot of modern vehicles dont even have fluid dipsticks for fluid level checks (electronically checked by scan or on board electronics) ..... I could go on ....

 

[Racer56]

One thing that hasn't changed is the service writer's ripping of women. Everytime my teenage daughter has taken in her car for a oil change or scheduled maintenance, they have tried to rip her off. Thank God she has the presence of mind to call dad and straighten these fucking guys out. Usually a quick phone call suffices, but I have had to go to the shops twice. Same goes for my wife, except she doesn't fall for the bullshit sale's job and only has them just do what she came in for.

 

[Mr. C]

Most customers don’t want to pay the $150/hr labor for the dealer to “figure it out”.

2 out of those 3 problems were Jeep and 07 M6 though

Who would want to 150 an hour for almost anything. I get specialized jobs and all. But not when you have plug and play to define an issue. Fire away. I can take it. Loll

 

[Shlbyntro]

Also, be mindful of dealers where all the techs have matching tool boxes or the shop has wall boxes for their techs. When the dealerships provide the tools, it generally means that their techs are paid straight hourly and at a lower rate (lower quality tech, usually just parts changers) When you see this, the dealer is circumventing skilled tradesmen laws that require a much higher pay structure.

 

[Ziggy]

Most customers don’t want to pay the $150/hr labor for the dealer to “figure it out”.

2 out of those 3 problems were Jeep and 07 M6 though

They'd rather gamble on a $150 part.

 

[caribbean20]

I get it, intermittent problems can be tough to diagnose. But . . . how is it that I’m 3 for 3 just doing a simple, and I do mean simple, internet search. What are the odds if I’m nothing more than an “internet warrior.”

This is their Brand, the Brand in which they supposedly specialize. I can tell you I’d be damned embarrassed if some rube off the street told me something about my area of expertise for which I was too lazy to do simple research.

Maybe it’s just me. I grew up when we had auto shop as a class in high school, and I was in that class

 

[lbhsbz]

Who would want to 150 an hour for almost anything. I get specialized jobs and all. But not when you have plug and play to define an issue. Fire away. I can take it. Loll

Ok, I’ll fire.

Do you have any idea what subscriptions to service info costs these days? It’s not cheap. The overhead required to run a proficient shop is outrageous, which is where these labor rates come from. Don’t like it? Fix it yore-self….which is what I choose to tool up for and do…not because I save money, because I rarely do, but because I trust myself more than I trust others to fix things right.

 

[Mr. C]

Ok, I’ll fire.

Do you have any idea what subscriptions to service info costs these days? It’s not cheap. The overhead required to run a proficient shop is outrageous, which is where these labor rates come from. Don’t like it? Fix it yore-self….which is what I choose to tool up for and do…not because I save money, because I rarely do, but because I trust myself more than I trust others to fix things right.

Trust me I fix myself when possible. 150 an hour when you can’t even tell me what is really wrong. But your last comment I trust myself more than others. Speaks for itself.
Assuming you have a shop from the cost comments it takes to run a shop and yet you still ( your last comment). Want to do it yourself.

 

[Your ad here]

The "scanner" is a really good tool if used more than just to scan codes. The aforementioned crank position may not light a code, but running, or even cranking, usually shows inconsistencies. Last week I had a no start situation on a 2000 7.3. Scanner on it, cranking. Battery voltage good, HPOP pressure low...rpm 200. Local shop had told him HPOP. The factory starter is supposed to crank at 400+ rpm. If not fast enough, not enough oil pressure for the injectors to fire. Kid did a starter for 180$ and tools he had. He gave me 20$ when he drove the truck by
The scanner is just a tool. It's not the end all be all, just a window to see what's going on. I prefer points and carbs, but had to go with the times...

Here's one for you to keep in mind on a 7.3. My was doing a crank but no start and no codes. CPS and everything else was fine. If I let the glow plugs cycle all the way through, when they shut off, the truck would start. I know the IDM won't come alive with low battery voltage. Turns out both 1 year old batteries had bad cells and the glow plugs pulled to much power for the IDM to come alive until the GP's cycled off. The thing I could not figure out was that it cranked over as if the batteries were good. I've had 7.3's crank so slow but still fire off.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

They'd rather gamble on a $150 part.

They are gambling with the house’s money.. why not?

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Who would want to 150 an hour for almost anything. I get specialized jobs and all. But not when you have plug and play to define an issue. Fire away. I can take it. Loll

I don’t set the labor rates.. I avoid the dealership like the plague

 

[Mr. C]

They are gambling with the house’s money.. why not?

So again. You feel 150. To diagnose an issue is fair???Or have i not read back far enough and need to take some tongue and cheek

 

[Ziggy]

They are gambling with the house’s money.. why not?

No house vouchers were given out. It's their gamble.
Besides, no returns on electrical parts
Lol, I had a big rubber stamp that voided any warranty if customer chose his own route.

 

[monkeyswrench]

Well, to run a shop...legit and such...a higher end scanner runs about 1500$ annually to update. There are some "off brand" scanners with free updates, but their service notes aren't nearly the same. The initial cost for a scanner runs from 3-6k, depending on what vehicles you work on. Then of course the overhead of utilities and insurance. I don't know the shop rents in other places, but here a basic shop is about a 1$ a sqft. I don't know, but overhead is a killer. I have a scanner that is outdated, but I don't work on new stuff.
I grew up with no auto shop in school. I learned by necessity and limited income. I learned buying the tools once cost about the same as having someone do the job...and now I have a bunch of tools, and can work on a lot of different things.

 

[Sherpa]

THIS is why I work on my own shit........... while I know I have shot-gun replaced some parts before, (My own loss, cough, cough damn 97 f150 v6)
but I've usually troubleshot my problem/issue correctly 90%+ of the time.............

--Sherpa

 

[monkeyswrench]

Here's one for you to keep in mind on a 7.3. My was doing a crank but no start and no codes. CPS and everything else was fine. If I let the glow plugs cycle all the way through, when they shut off, the truck would start. I know the IDM won't come alive with low battery voltage. Turns out both 1 year old batteries had bad cells and the glow plugs pulled to much power for the IDM to come alive until the GP's cycled off. The thing I could not figure out was that it cranked over as if the batteries were good. I've had 7.3's crank so slow but still fire off.

Been a shit ton of "Covid" batteries going bad this year. All date coded 9-12 months old, dropping cells. I don't have an explanation, but all suppliers as well. Lots of warranty tags.

 

[bonesfab]

People are fucking clueless what it takes to day anything now days, It just bolts right in.. and about the costs of running a shop. my garage keepers insurance went up 50% this year. Now it’s right under 20k for the year. Lets not forget workman’s comp, all the permits and fees the state and county want, and rent is not cheap either. And tool bills and subscriptions also, Nothing is cheap anymore. Just like engine machine shops. No one wants to pay what its worth. Equipment and experience are not cheap. Plus the building to house them.

 

[pkbullet]

Also, be mindful of dealers where all the techs have matching tool boxes or the shop has wall boxes for their techs. When the dealerships provide the tools, it generally means that their techs are paid straight hourly and at a lower rate (lower quality tech, usually just parts changers) When you see this, the dealer is circumventing skilled tradesmen laws that require a much higher pay structure.

Or the dealer might of spent millions on the facility and wanted his shop to look uniform. Build a Bay products featuring snap on boxes give a nice look.

 

[Mr. C]

People are fucking clueless what it takes to day anything now days, It just bolts right in.. and about the costs of running a shop. my garage keepers insurance went up 50% this year. Now it’s right under 20k for the year. Lets not forget workman’s comp, all the permits and fees the state and county want, and rent is not cheap either. And tool bills and subscriptions also, Nothing is cheap anymore. Just like engine machine shops. No one wants to pay what its worth. Equipment and experience are not cheap. Plus the building to house them.

I get your rant. But do you truly believe 150 is a realistic diagnostic test price ?

 

[bonesfab]

I get your rant. But do you truly believe 150 is a realistic diagnostic test price ?

I have joked around in the past. I am going to convert it to a auto repair practice. Can charge by the minute and no consequences if you are wrong. Just like practicing law or medicine. Genius I think. What is fair to you? Give all the time away and they go get the part and attempt it themselves? You are in business to make money. And after all the bullshit you have to pay, there isnt much left when you are a nice guy and give away your time. Land lords want to get paid too.

 

[fast99]

We run into a bunch of CND [cannot duplicate] vehicles, several weekly. Cars today are mobile computers attached to stupid mechanical devices. Worst of both worlds. Problem with "fixing" vehicles like you describe is the what if. What if it doesn't fix it? Who pays for the tow? Car comes back customer is ticked off wants a refund or free repair. We hear it's doing the same thing and it never did that before all the time. Yes, internet searches can be informative. Who pays for the time doing that? Shop owner or customer? We have access to several pay sites and look for pattern failures but all too often following those alone won't lead to a successful repair. More times than not the car will come back if we just toss parts at it. There are hundreds of issues that can cause a vehicle to stall. We welcome a diagnosis from a parts counter person or the customer. It's not on us.

 

[Kachina26]

Who would want to 150 an hour for almost anything. I get specialized jobs and all. But not when you have plug and play to define an issue. Fire away. I can take it. Loll

By plug and play, do you mean all the tech has to do it plug in a scan tool and it tells him what's wrong? That's not the case. Many "techs" replace parts based on a code because they don't understand the reason for the code. O2 sensors get replaced all the time for a lean code when in fact, it's usually something simple like the fuel filter is plugged. As far as a full hour for diagnosis, that should be a rare occurrence. We had a saying, "if you spend more than 10 minutes on it, you're guessing". Most times it was true. My diagnosis time was max half an hour. Warranty paid max 18 minutes unless you had a lot of documentation showing it was an unusual problem.

 

[Ziggy]

I get your rant. But do you truly believe 150 is a realistic diagnostic test price ?

I always started with one hours labor towards diagnostics.
Seems going rate is around that $150 mark.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

So again. You feel 150. To diagnose an issue is fair???Or have i not read back far enough and need to take some tongue and cheek

Businesses are free to set their labor rates at what the market will bear. Everyone in the trades here defends their pay rates to the the bitter end. The AC guys, the electricians, the plumbers etc.

I don’t have to like it, life isn’t fair. I’m free to take my car wherever I want for service if I don’t like the labor rate I’m looking at on the wall.

 

[Ziggy]

Businesses are free to set their labor rates at what the market will bear. Everyone in the trades here defends their pay rates to the the bitter end.

I don’t have to like it, life isn’t fair. I’m free to take my car wherever I want for service if I don’t like the labor rate I’m looking at on the wall.

Dealership warranty reimbursement is predicated on customer retail rates. Warranty often shortchanged us on claimed time. I raised customer rates to get my warranty rate up. Didn't mean I couldn't give the customers a 10% discount on labor

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

No house vouchers were given out. It's their gamble.
Besides, no returns on electrical parts
Lol, I had a big rubber stamp that voided any warranty if customer chose his own route.

How many times were refunds given to folks that paid to swap various components 3 times and finally the 3rd component fixed the problem?

You saw a lot more of this than me, but on the customer side I’ve never seen a dealer fall on the sword and cover the first 2 unsuccessful repairs.

I’m not saying this never happens, it has just never happened to anyone I know.

That is why I said they are playing with the house’s money… my (or customer) house’s money .

 

[Mr. C]

Businesses are free to set their labor rates at what the market will bear. Everyone in the trades here defends their pay rates to the the bitter end. The AC guys, the electricians, the plumbers etc.

I don’t have to like it, life isn’t fair. I’m free to take my car wherever I want for service if I don’t like the labor rate I’m looking at on the wall.

Agree. And wouldn’t take my car to a place that is 150 for a diagnosis. Shit the fucking dealer isn’t even that much. Just sayin.

 

[grumpy88]

I have joked around in the past. I am going to convert it to a auto repair practice. Can charge by the minute and no consequences if you are wrong. Just like practicing law or medicine. Genius I think. What is fair to you? Give all the time away and they go get the part and attempt it themselves? You are in business to make money. And after all the bullshit you have to pay, there isnt much left when you are a nice guy and give away your time. Land lords want to get paid too.

My boss says it all the time when I question what the company charges , "no where on the side of the truck does it say non profit " is his normal response. Secondly I take our vehicles to the dealer for almost everything. If I knew a top notch independent sure but why pay dealer rates to the local boozer with half the overhead and no other facilities?

 

[grumpy88]

How many times were refunds given to folks that paid to swap various components 3 times and finally the 3rd component fixed the problem?

You saw a lot more of this than me, but on the customer side I’ve never seen a dealer fall on the sword and cover the first 2 unsuccessful repairs.

I’m not saying this never happens, it has just never happened to anyone I know.

That is why I said they are playing with the house’s money… my (or customer) house’s money .

I agree .

 

[Your ad here]

Or the dealer might of spent millions on the facility and wanted his shop to look uniform. Build a Bay products featuring snap on boxes give a nice look.

It was forced on by the dealer franchise. Dealers have to be up to date on "image" to get profitable cars to sell. Uniform shops are part of that image. A lot of techs were pissed they had to remove their expensive boxes from the shop and work out of a built in box. Problem solving type techs. I was involved with a couple dozen of those "image updates" and never once did a dealer spend money on Snap-On equipment. It was actually the opposite. All they did was complain about the cost... just like their customers.

 

[Ziggy]

How many times were refunds given to folks that paid to swap various components 3 times and finally the 3rd component fixed the problem?

You saw a lot more of this than me, but on the customer side I’ve never seen a dealer fall on the sword and cover the first 2 unsuccessful repairs.

I’m not saying this never happens, it has just never happened to anyone I know.

That is why I said they are playing with the house’s money… my (or customer) house’s money .

Only if that component was our suggestion to replace.

 

[Ziggy]

It was forced on by the dealer franchise. Dealers have to be up to date on "image" to get profitable cars to sell. Uniform shops are part of that image. A lot of techs were pissed they had to remove their expensive boxes from the shop and work out of a built in box. Problem solving type techs. I was involved with a couple dozen of those "image updates" and never once did a dealer spend money on Snap-On equipment. It was actually the opposite. All they did was complain about the cost... just like their customers.

Corporate Image. The way to make every store appear uniformly the same or similar.
Big black vacuum for our profits to make the franchisor happy

 

[TimeBandit]

How much would you charge for a can bus issue that you had to disconnect every computer module in the car and yes there were 28 of them? (Many of them buried behind trim panels that took a lot of Labor to remove)

There was a diagnostic trouble code, that component was not the problem (lanewatch camera code) but it was connected to the 27 other components.... The dash lights were on for a communication issue with no clue as to where it was.

$150? $300? $600?

The problem was finally solved it was a soft connection meaning a connector was not locked into place at the driver's power seat control module. There was no code for the power seat control module.

But hey it only took eight hours to figure out!

How much do you charge for 8 hours when the final repair is remaking a connection?