Morel Lifter Failure?

[28Eliminator]

516" BBC. custom grind Cam (.650 lift), AFR heads. Springs are good, 200lbs on the seat @1.95.

4 of the sets have broken tie bars. #2 Intake rotated and too out the cam lobe.. How the others didn't rotate is beyond me.

Any ideas why it did this?

 

[Husqy510]

Wow that's interesting. I wonder if the tie bar was at it's limit and binding. We just put together a NA 540 and one of our brand new morel lifters collapsed while on the Dyno.

 

[ElAzul]

Morel was the hot shit a few years back but lots of issues with them to be read about now. I'm sure some were the installed to tight etc. but some really good reputable builders have had issues too. How's the bore and springs look on the one's that broke?

 

[rivermobster]

Cam walking? What's the button under the timing cover look like?

Someone needs to check every detail of this build Real closely.

 

[28Eliminator]

Wow that's interesting. I wonder if the tie bar was at it's limit and binding. We just put together a NA 540 and one of our brand new morel lifters collapsed while on the Dyno.

That was the first thing i checked, thought that as well. Rotated it until the intakes on a couple of the ones that aren't broken was at max lift, and there was still plenty of play in the tiebar???

 

[28Eliminator]

Morel was the hot shit a few years back but lots of issues with them to be read about now. I'm sure some were the installed to tight etc. but some really good reputable builders have had issues too. How's the bore and springs look on the one's that broke?

None were too tight in the bore. I spent several hours honing the bores to get them to at least .0015. Springs have been replaced every 200 hours, just recently about 50 hours ago. Never had any bad or broken ones. The engine has about 450 hours on it.

 

[28Eliminator]

Cam walking? What's the button under the timing cover look like?

Someone needs to check every detail of this build Real closely.

It's a Gen V block with the cam retainer. I used a Rollmaster timing chain with the torrington bearing. I'm still battling trying to get the damper off, so I can get the timing cover off it. That's on tonight's agenda.. I didn't see any tracks on the cam indicating it was walking though.. I'll report back when I get it off.

 

[StraubTech]

It's not lifter failure...its lifter abuse due to an unhappy valvetrain. Tie bars have not load on them...they are just a guide to start the lifter and aid in tracking. If you have broken tie bars you have an issue in the valvetrain. Heads need to come off and be checked.

If you want to send pics I will be happy to look at them for you.

 

[StraubTech]

Morel was the hot shit a few years back but lots of issues with them to be read about now. I'm sure some were the installed to tight etc. but some really good reputable builders have had issues too. How's the bore and springs look on the one's that broke?

If having issues its usually pre-load, lifter to bore clearance, or oil centistoke rating. The Driven FR50 works great with the lifter in a marine enviroment.

 

[ElAzul]

If having issues its usually pre-load, lifter to bore clearance, or oil centistoke rating. The Driven FR50 works great with the lifter in a marine enviroment.

Glad you could chime in, out of curiosity is this Chris?

 

[Teague_JR]

1st things first: you have the wrong intake gaskets, and they need to be thicker to move the intake up in relation to the head ports, and then the heads need to be match ported. Youre giving up big HP on an NA motor with those head ports smaller than the intake... Moving on...

How many hours on this set of lifters? Sometimes the stupidest answer is correct: the rivets holding the tiebars are shitty and failed.

 

[StraubTech]

Glad you could chime in, out of curiosity is this Chris?

Yes it's Chris Straub. Somebody FB messaged me to alert me to this thread.

 

[DB / HAV]

This is why I love this site. Awesome stuff right here!!

 

[28Eliminator]

It's not lifter failure...its lifter abuse due to an unhappy valvetrain. Tie bars have not load on them...they are just a guide to start the lifter and aid in tracking. If you have broken tie bars you have an issue in the valvetrain. Heads need to come off and be checked.

If you want to send pics I will be happy to look at them for you.

Chris, What would make the Valve train unhappy? this has been a very happy engine for 450 hours. The heads are off, what should I look for?

 

[28Eliminator]

1st things first: you have the wrong intake gaskets, and they need to be thicker to move the intake up in relation to the head ports, and then the heads need to be match ported. Youre giving up big HP on an NA motor with those head ports smaller than the intake... Moving on...

How many hours on this set of lifters? Sometimes the stupidest answer is correct: the rivets holding the tiebars are shitty and failed.

450 hours on the lifters.... and yes, the tiny rivets on the tie bars don't look encouraging. BTW, I bought them from you.

 

[StraubTech]

Chris, What would make the Valve train unhappy? this has been a very happy engine for 450 hours. The heads are off, what should I look for?

When you say you have 200# seat pressure is that confirm as the heads are now, or when it was new? Take a picture of the tip of the valve. Does it have a star pattern? Check pushrods for marks on them in the area of the pushrod that goes through the heads.

 

[28Eliminator]

When you say you have 200# seat pressure is that confirm as the heads are now, or when it was new? Take a picture of the tip of the valve. Does it have a star pattern? Check pushrods for marks on them in the area of the pushrod that goes through the heads.

The seat pressure was tested and verified at installed height (I believe it was 1.95) when we first put the engine together in 2011. Since then I have changed them twice, most recently approx 50 hours ago... With the same springs. I got them from you.

Pushrods are clean. only marks are where they go through the guide plates. Valve tips look like some have been rotating, some not.

 

[StraubTech]

You've got some "Star" pattern on the tips so its floating. How wide is that pattern? All that harmonics is transferred to the lifter. What had the seat pressure dropped to when you changed the springs out? Again there is no load on the tie bars, so in normal operation their is no stress on them. Some put stress on them. Also the locks look very "deep" in those retainers.

 

[Teague_JR]

The seat pressure was tested and verified at installed height (I believe it was 1.95) when we first put the engine together in 2011. Since then I have changed them twice, most recently approx 50 hours ago... With the same springs. I got them from you.

Pushrods are clean. only marks are where they go through the guide plates. Valve tips look like some have been rotating, some not.

View attachment 841804 View attachment 841805

Those locks do look a bit deep but as far as the float marks go (valve rotating in the retainer) they are pretty light duty. I’ve seen some blower motors floating so bad the valve tops are practically a work of art. Double check that the rockers are somewhat centered on the valve left to right, but the wear marks look good to me (certain generations of the AFR guide plates were totally fucked up). Pushrod length looks right on the money.

Still leaning towards lifter part failure. especially since they lasted 450 hours. If it was a systemic issue they would have failed much faster. Most likely the tiebars weren’t taking a load, the rivers either failed due to harmonics or they were a loose fit which allowed the tiebar to gain inertia and beat them off with the up and down motion....???

 

[28Eliminator]

Cam walking? What's the button under the timing cover look like?

Someone needs to check every detail of this build Real closely.

Cam Walk was minimal.. .007 - .008.

 

[78Southwind]

Nice seeing you here @StraubTech hang out a while...

 

[StraubTech]

Nice seeing you here @StraubTech hang out a while...

Thank you and will do.

 

[StraubTech]

My friend that worked for another cam company that was based in FL called and said. It's been over revved at some point and broke the tie bars. He said with the time on the lifters it has probably been over revved over the years, it is a boat he said. The rivets have been fatigued with that many hours on the lifters and years of use. He said we supplied parts to a company up in WI and because of testing with our parts they recommended a change of our lifters at 200 hours....Our rockers too. He also noted the engine had been well taken care of as clean as it was.

 

[28Eliminator]

Those locks do look a bit deep but as far as the float marks go (valve rotating in the retainer) they are pretty light duty. I’ve seen some blower motors floating so bad the valve tops are practically a work of art. Double check that the rockers are somewhat centered on the valve left to right, but the wear marks look good to me (certain generations of the AFR guide plates were totally fucked up). Pushrod length looks right on the money.

Still leaning towards lifter part failure. especially since they lasted 450 hours. If it was a systemic issue they would have failed much faster. Most likely the tiebars weren’t taking a load, the rivers either failed due to harmonics or they were a loose fit which allowed the tiebar to gain inertia and beat them off with the up and down motion....???

What you’re saying makes the most sense to me, although I’m not discounting the valve springs. I’ll have some tested when I get them apart. The tie bars wore through the rivets until there was nothing left, and the buttons fell off. Plain and simple. Whether that’s just age and hours, or a soft rivet who knows.. move on.

The theory that I over rev’d it is ridiculous. It’s a 28’ Eliminator Eagle with a Bravo 1. With a 28p it topped out at 80, with a 26, 75 - 76. Anyone here can do the math. I have an MSD ignition on it with A 6k rev limiter anyways... lol.

The rockers were centered perfectly on the valve tips. I recall the AFR debacle with the guide plates, and made sure I had the good ones.

I need to get this back together, and just don’t want to make sure I can alleviate this issue from happening again.

I assume this is John?


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[28Eliminator]

My friend that worked for another cam company that was based in FL called and said. It's been over revved at some point and broke the tie bars. He said with the time on the lifters it has probably been over revved over the years, it is a boat he said. The rivets have been fatigued with that many hours on the lifters and years of use. He said we supplied parts to a company up in WI and because of testing with our parts they recommended a change of our lifters at 200 hours....Our rockers too. He also noted the engine had been well taken care of as clean as it was.

Over rev didn’t happen.. period. That’s not what happened. I can buy into the age and fatigue idea.. that realistic. If the lifters are only good for 200 hours, I’ll definitely be going another direction this time. That’s pretty disheartening.

And as I mentioned above, I’m going to check the springs and see what kind of shape their in after 50 hours. You think 200lbs was enough for this cam?

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[Hammer]

Sorry about your luck Dave. This is a great informative thread though.

Out of curiosity, what does the star pattern and the locks being “deep” tell you?

I’m not on the level of Straub or Teague Jr. , but Fatigue of the rivet seems the most logical
To me. I think it failed over time unfortunately.




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[StraubTech]

Pushing the stick forward on old 29' Fever I could cavitate the prop and blow it out pretty easy. 525EFI with a 26P. Not so much now with Bravo 3 and 8.1.
MSD rev limit set at 6000 rpm.....MSD chips start to drop cylinders 300 rpm below what the chip states. That would be 5700. Its never good for an engine run on the limiter. You need to have that set at 6300 going forward.

Base on cam specs and longevity of the combination, I feel the spring pressure was good. Crane has always been a respected brand and Mercury wants their Rockers, Lifters, and springs changed at 200 hours. At 5700 rpm max, you turning this engine higher than a "Blue" engine and got 2.25 X's the life out of the parts. I think its pretty damn good. Does it suck right now, yes. Was it a hell of an 8 years of boating fun....hell yes.

It will be interesting to see how the seats and valves look in the heads.

I will be more than willing to work with you and give you a discount on replacement parts.

 

[Teague_JR]

Over rev didn’t happen.. period. That’s not what happened. I can buy into the age and fatigue idea.. that realistic. If the lifters are only good for 200 hours, I’ll definitely be going another direction this time. That’s pretty disheartening.

And as I mentioned above, I’m going to check the springs and see what kind of shape their in after 50 hours. You think 200lbs was enough for this cam?

View attachment 842757




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Hey this is John, disclaimer: I no longer work at TCM and what I say here is purely my personal and sometimes imperfect opinions..

You need to know your over the nose spring pressure (.650 down from installed height) to get the complete picture but yes it would seem those springs were correct, especially based on the float indications over 400 hours, and no broken rockers or lifters...

I am not a huge fan of that cam honestly. Since you need to replace it now I would reconsider it. Given its in a 28 eagle I'm assuming you want a nice midrange setup and 5800-6000 RPM peak HP would be good. Maybe a crane 139681 240/248 and 621/632 on a 112

Assuming the motor is not growing in inches right now....

JT

 

[StraubTech]

Anytime you see more lift on the exhaust these days, that cam profile is dated 40 year old thinking. Modern day cylinder heads have come a long way since the 70's and 80's. They flow a ton of air quickly. Today's heads flow the same cfm at .300" as heads of the by gone years did and .500 and .600". What does that mean, they fill the cylinder head quicker, hence needing less time. What is duration....time we hold the valve open. Lift. Peak velocity in the intake port happens in the mid to upper lift points of the valve. You want to lift the valve just past peak for max cylinder fill. Exhaust is under pressure. As soon as you crack the valve off the seat, the port sees max velocity and from this point velocity decreases. Lift is not that critical on the exhaust side. The cam in the engine is what it needs based on 450 hours of trouble free boating.

 

[Teague_JR]

28 Eliminator, Whats the engine compression? What are the AFR heads exactly? Also what intake and carb? I don't want to assume.

I am basing my cam recommendation on the Mercury racing cam for the 525 and now the 520, 540, and 565. It is a step nose 610/632 and 236/244 @50 with a 114 lobe sep. Its also the designated cam for the 600/700 stage 4 upgrade.. So that would put that cam at around 20,000 or so engines in the field (guesstimate?). Camshaft theory is like skinning a cat, many many cams will work and at a certain point you will split hairs and it will get more and more application specific.

The 139681 is a gen4/5 shelf cam that is a bit more aggressive in all dimensions then that cam, if I were to choose every number I would choose 632/632 lift. TCM has this cam from their OEM supplier with the correct core and distributor gear on the shelf. Reminder that I don't sell cams so I don't really care what you do. Regardless of the lift theory I think 228/242 is too small.

Was this engine ever dynoed?

JT

 

[28Eliminator]

28 Eliminator, Whats the engine compression? What are the AFR heads exactly? Also what intake and carb? I don't want to assume.

I am basing my cam recommendation on the Mercury racing cam for the 525 and now the 520, 540, and 565. It is a step nose 610/632 and 236/244 @50 with a 114 lobe sep. Its also the designated cam for the 600/700 stage 4 upgrade.. So that would put that cam at around 20,000 or so engines in the field (guesstimate?). Camshaft theory is like skinning a cat, many many cams will work and at a certain point you will split hairs and it will get more and more application specific.

The 139681 is a gen4/5 shelf cam that is a bit more aggressive in all dimensions then that cam, if I were to choose every number I would choose 632/632 lift. TCM has this cam from their OEM supplier with the correct core and distributor gear on the shelf. Reminder that I don't sell cams so I don't really care what you do. Regardless of the lift theory I think 228/242 is too small.

Was this engine ever dynoed?

JT

compression is only 9:1, AFR 305cc, Dart single plane and 950 Quick Fuel carb.

when I first put the engine together with the iron heads (088’s) it dyno’d 570/615 (approx if I recall). One of the heads dropped a seat, and I had to go through it again. The new engine, I put on the AFR’s, bumped the timing and the bigger carb, and it was noticeably stronger... guessing high 500’s. I didn’t put it on the dyno the second time.

I’m leaning more towards something in the 232/234 ish range on 112. I don’t want anything too big. I don’t know... we’ll
See.. lol

I do appreciate everyone’s input for sure. I’m just a bonehead backyard engine builder.. lol.

 

[28Eliminator]

Some pics of the heads.

 

[Teague_JR]

Some pics of the heads.
View attachment 845423 View attachment 845424 View attachment 845425 View attachment 845426

Hard to see but are the exhaust seats a little sunk? TCM upgrades the seats in all heads (AFR included)

 

[StraubTech]

AFR heads have a very high I/E ratio. A single pattern or a mild split works the best. Cam was optimal for OEM heads, it was blowing power out the exhaust with the AFR heads.

 

[StraubTech]

That's an early set of heads that is not vented.....need to vent the heads.

 

[28Eliminator]

Hard to see but are the exhaust seats a little sunk? TCM upgrades the seats in all heads (AFR included)

I don't think so. I put a straight edge across the valve tips and they were all dead on. All the valves look fine. Be easier to see once they get cleaned up.

 

[28Eliminator]

AFR heads have a very high I/E ratio. A single pattern or a mild split works the best. Cam was optimal for OEM heads, it was blowing power out the exhaust with the AFR heads.

Can you explain Chris? what would you do differently with these heads?

and what do you mean by "Venting the heads"

 

[240Hallett]

Any updates??

 

[28Eliminator]

Any updates??

Yes, lifter shrapnel trashed the inside of it. Taking block and heads to GT early next week. Looks like it will be growing [emoji16]


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[240Hallett]

Yes, lifter shrapnel trashed the inside of it. Taking block and heads to GT early next week. Looks like it will be growing [emoji16]


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You know you were thinking bigger anyway… This just removes the doubt

 

[Eliminator21vdrive]

Any updates? Did you talk to Morel?

 

[28Eliminator]

Any updates? Did you talk to Morel?

There’s nobody to talk to. No contact info on their website. You have to contact one of their dealers, one of which is Chris Straub (who has already commented in here).

Overall I think Morel builds a good product. They worked very good in my engine for a long time, but I also believe there is a metallurgical compatibility issue between the rivet and the tie bar. The tie bars, showing almost no wear at all simply “sawed” through the rivets over time. Tie bars having a harder steel than the rivets.

I’ve spoken to 3 different “notable” engine builders about it, and 2 just smiled and said “we don’t sell Morels anymore”. The 3rd said he had never seen Morels do that, but he had never seen a set with that many hours on them either.

Was there a Valve train “Harmonics problem”? Who knows.. anything is possible I suppose.


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[Eliminator21vdrive]

I am building a motor now with a Straub cam and morel lifters. :-(

 

[renodaytona]

I’m building a new motor as well and went with a Teague cam and Johnson lifters.

 

[28Eliminator]

I am building a motor now with a Straub cam and morel lifters. :-(

don't misunderstand me. Straub knows his shit when it comes to Cam design. Mine worked very well, made good power and torque right where I wanted it... and for a long time and a lot of hours. You won’t be disappointed. I would just be diligent, and check the lifters after a few hundred hours.

 

[28Eliminator]

I’m building a new motor as well and went with a Teague cam and Johnson lifters.

I'm going with Johnsen’s as well, but opted for Bob Madera to do the cam this time around.

 

[240Hallett]

Is this thing going back together yet?

 

[28Eliminator]

Is this thing going back together yet?

Slowly.. short block is all complete. Waiting on the cam to show up

Have a Dyno appoinment in a couple weeks [emoji16]


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[28Eliminator]

On the Dyno next week!!

 

[bocco]

On the Dyno next week!!
View attachment 879356

What kind of fuel pump is that?