Is it the clutch or the tranny?

[Deckin Around]

I’ve broken a bunch of belts in rzrs and canams but never wore out a clutch completely which i’m guessing is what happened. I haven’t done anything more mechanically than remove and replace complete clutch assemblies, not any internal clutch parts so I don’t know the signs and wanted to get your guys’ opinion:
What’s the look for or do specifically to rule out a clutch vs a transmission/shifter issue?
We have an older little rzr 570 that will start in neutral and bang into gear if you shift and then die.

Thanks

 

[fishing fool]

If you have no replaced the wearable parts in the clutch this is what you need.
https://aftermarketassassins.com/pr...rbo-2018-22-rs1-extreme-hd-clutch-rebuild-kit

 

[Deckin Around]

If you have no replaced the wearable parts in the clutch this is what you need.
https://aftermarketassassins.com/pr...rbo-2018-22-rs1-extreme-hd-clutch-rebuild-kit

Those old rzr's new complete clutch replacements are sub $600 so I'll just replace the whole thing.
The link you have above has complete new primary assemblies for $550 https://aftermarketassassins.com/products/ols/categories/rzr-570
I was just wondering if there was a tactic visually or physically to verify if the clutch was not working. My google search on rzr fourms wasnt really a help. I'll take the wheels off and jack it up this weekend.

 

[paradise]

I’ve broken a bunch of belts in rzrs and canams but never wore out a clutch completely which i’m guessing is what happened. I haven’t done anything more mechanically than remove and replace complete clutch assemblies, not any internal clutch parts so I don’t know the signs and wanted to get your guys’ opinion:
What’s the look for or do specifically to rule out a clutch vs a transmission/shifter issue?
We have an older little rzr 570 that will start in neutral and bang into gear if you shift and then die.

Thanks

You could have a piece of old belt (or something) in the primary that's stopping it from completely opening all the way. Had this happen on my uncle's car on a ride. Symptoms were the same and the issue was a small piece of belt stopping one of the cams from opening all the way.

Worth a look and pretty easy on the bench.

 

[Bpracing1127]

Take the cover off and see if it’s aligned. Look down the center line of the two clutch’s with your phone camera and it should be even spaced. Almost sounds like the secondary is spinning which it shouldn’t be

 

[Mikes56]

Also check for broken rollers In the clutch. Those are usually the first thing to break or wear out.

 

[paradise]

Take the cover off and see if it’s aligned. Look down the center line of the two clutch’s with your phone camera and it should be even spaced. Almost sounds like the secondary is spinning which it shouldn’t be

Definitely secondary spinning at idle. Could be misalignment causing the sides to grab or could be primary not releasing. When the primary is all the way open the belt should be sitting on the inner ‘roller’.

 

[Deckin Around]

Primary stuck open?
i just took off the cover and started it and both clutches spun while idling in neutral.
Then i noticed 2 of the weights were loose and flop around and 1 doesn’t move at all in any direction it was hung up on its roller

So then i figured what the hell I’ll see if i can get it unstuck and I tapped lightly where the blue x is and the whole unit sprung back out.

….sooooo what just happened? I know i need blow it out real well but at least there was an absolute identifiable problem.

 

[paradise]

Primary stuck open?
i opened it and both clutches spun while idling in neutral.
Then i noticed 2 of the weights were loose and flop around and 1 doesn’t move at all in any direction it was hung up.
View attachment 1372369 View attachment 1372370
View attachment 1372399
So then i figured what the hell I’ll see if i can get it unstuck and I tapped lightly where the blue x is and the whole unit sprung back out.

….sooooo what just happened? I know i need blow it out real well but at least there was an absolute identifiable problem.

The end of that weight is chipped. When it opens all the way it’ll ‘cam over’ and be stuck open. Pull those weights and the one you just had to tap will be shorter than the others. A new set of weights and all will be good to go. My dad had the same thing happen on an xp1000 clutch.

Had to do that exact thing like 5 times on the way back to camp

 

[Bpracing1127]

i would replace the whole thing, the weights are bad and likely the rollers. easier to replace the whole thing

 

[paradise]

i would replace the whole thing, the weights are bad and likely the rollers. easier to replace the whole thing

On a 570? Never hurt but I bet there really aren’t that many miles on it.

 

[Deckin Around]

On a 570? Never hurt but I bet there really aren’t that many miles on it.

I just ordered a new set of Mother Clutcher clutches for $600.00. The next step will be R & R and try to keep my fingers out of spring loaded parts now. Thanks guys

 

[Deckin Around]

Alright good news/bad news, I appreciate you all reading and helping out.

New clutches and new belt are on which solved the big picture problem but that damn secondary still wants to spin with the primary when the car is in neutral/park. That makes the shifting hard.
-Both clutches are functioning correctly through all RPMs in H & L & R gears when jacked up with the wheels off.
-All the rollers are working fine on both clutches
-I can physically hold back the secondary and when the car is started it wont spin with the primary.
-Everything was torqued, loosened and re-torqued again per some stuff I read to troubleshoot.
-Seems to be aligned ok but it's not really possible to sight down the belt or get a phone to see it running between the clutches. The belt is recessed in the inner clutch housing so you cant look down on it, from the back or the bottom.

Is it possible the belt needs to break in a bit? It seems like the belt isnt riding on the primary roller enough and is grabbing the sides of the primary which pulls to move the secondary. Based on things I've read, there are different ideas on where a belt is riding in the secondary but I verified the secondary was fully compressed (closed) at idle. The belt rides flush with the top of the secondary. My only other thing I can think of doing is to put a new OEM belt on to verify the belt I have is not slightly too small. That belt brand has 5000 5-star reviews so I would be surprised. The old belt was trashed and the new one is 1/16"-3/32" wider and 1/8" taller, I assume that's just because the old belt is worn down.

 

[paradise]

Alright good news/bad news, I appreciate you all reading and helping out.

New clutches and new belt are on which solved the big picture problem but that damn secondary still wants to spin with the primary when the car is in neutral/park. That makes the shifting hard.
-Both clutches are functioning correctly through all RPMs in H & L & R gears when jacked up with the wheels off.
-All the rollers are working fine on both clutches
-I can physically hold back the secondary and when the car is started it wont spin with the primary.
-Everything was torqued, loosened and re-torqued again per some stuff I read to troubleshoot.
-Seems to be aligned ok but it's not really possible to sight down the belt or get a phone to see it running between the clutches. The belt is recessed in the inner clutch housing so you cant look down on it, from the back or the bottom.

Is it possible the belt needs to break in a bit? It seems like the belt isnt riding on the primary roller enough and is grabbing the sides of the primary which pulls to move the secondary. Based on things I've read, there are different ideas on where a belt is riding in the secondary but I verified the secondary was fully compressed (closed) at idle. The belt rides flush with the top of the secondary. My only other thing I can think of doing is to put a new OEM belt on to verify the belt I have is not slightly too small. That belt brand has 5000 5-star reviews so I would be surprised. The old belt was trashed and the new one is 1/16"-3/32" wider and 1/8" taller, I assume that's just because the old belt is worn down.



View attachment 1379641 View attachment 1379642



View attachment 1379634 View attachment 1379635

I’d try a factory belt.

 

[Bpracing1127]

What belt are you using. I had this problem on my turbo s. I had to torque the primary about 15 ft lbs less than spec. The secondary was still spinning. I was running a gates belt at the time, put my spare OEM one on and it stopped. Ok thought that same thing it need to break in. Went to Glamis for the weekend and 200 miles later it didn’t get better. I ordered a brand new OEM belt and boom problem solved.

I would triple check torque specs? Are you using oem clutching or aftermarket. And use an oem belt.

 

[Deckin Around]

I’d try a factory belt.

What belt are you using. I had this problem on my turbo s. I had to torque the primary about 15 ft lbs less than spec. The secondary was still spinning. I was running a gates belt at the time, put my spare OEM one on and it stopped. Ok thought that same thing it need to break in. Went to Glamis for the weekend and 200 miles later it didn’t get better. I ordered a brand new OEM belt and boom problem solved.

I would triple check torque specs? Are you using oem clutching or aftermarket. And use an oem belt.

I tried an oem belt- and even back to the original chewed up oem polaris belt and all 3 were sill slightly dragging the secondary along with the primary spinning.
I think I have it figured out. It's mis-aligned and judging by the belt that was on it, I was that way before the clutch swap. I have removed and re-installed and torqued to spec twice and made sure the clutches seat correctly.
I held the secondary back with a tie strap and let it run for a minute. The belt was not rolling on the primary and when I stopped it, the inside of the primary on the engine side of the belt had gotten warm enough to also start to transfer heat into the roller but the other side was still cold. That says to me the belt is dragging on the inside of the primary because it is not alligned. So I need some shims to space the secondary out but I can only find shims made for the primary. There were no shims when I removed the clutches. I'll pull the secondary again to take a measurement with calipers and see if I can find any hardened steel options the right size.

Thanks

 

[Maestro]

I believe there is a way to align the whole transmission to correct belt alignments.

 

[Deckin Around]

I messaged with Harvey ATV who makes the Mother Clutcher clutches. They had break-in advise for the primary bearing but I told them that’s not the issue now so they are sending me secondary shims for free

 

[DLC]

Watch video for alignment for a can am. This is a float mod install

I did this to can am and haven’t had any issues, currently has 7,500 miles

 

[paradise]

I messaged with Harvey ATV who makes the Mother Clutcher clutches. They had break-in advise for the primary bearing but I told them that’s not the issue now so they are sending me secondary shims for free
View attachment 1383484

Make sure you check they are parallel too

 

[Deckin Around]

Watch video for alignment for a can am. This is a float mod install

I did this to can am and haven’t had any issues, currently has 7,500 miles

I checked they don’t have one for this model. I’m still at step 9 either way same as that mod.
I don’t really have problems with either of our Canam X3s eating belts but that is a really cool idea for the secondary to move it just makes sense. They still have the alignment by shims (step #9) seems like it would side load the belt still if misaligned like mine.

Make sure you check they are parallel too

not sure I follow aligned vs parallel. I don’t have any ability to adjust the distance between between the primary and secondary

 

[paradise]

I checked they don’t have one for this model. I’m still at step 9 either way same as that mod.
I don’t really have problems with either of our Canam X3s eating belts but that is a really cool idea for the secondary to move it just makes sense. They still have the alignment by shims (step #9) seems like it would side load the belt still if misaligned like mine.

not sure I follow aligned vs parallel. I don’t have any ability to adjust the distance between between the primary and secondary
View attachment 1383646

Check 9 minutes in to the video. The transmission can be loosened and moved to make sure the shafts are parallel. You seem to be talking mostly about in/out adjustment but there is also angular adjustment.

 

[Deckin Around]

Check 9 minutes in to the video. The transmission can be loosened and moved to make sure the shafts are parallel. You seem to be talking mostly about in/out adjustment but there is also angular adjustment.

Ahhh got it, that's interesting now I understand what @Maestro was saying above. I wonder if the dealer (Langston Motorsports) did that on this car during engine work. It has about 400 miles on a brand new crate motor that was dealership installed done by previous owner. They probably just slapped it together like I'm going to do but with shims

 

[paradise]

Ahhh got it, that's interesting now I understand what @Maestro was saying above. I wonder if the dealer (Langston Motorsports) did that on this car during engine work. It has about 400 miles on a brand new crate motor that was dealership installed done by previous owner. They probably just slapped it together like I'm going to do but with shims

If it had a new motor installed, it would’ve needed to be aligned. sounds like the alignment could be off Based on the symptoms

 

[Maestro]