Hellcat crate motor 15k

[DrunkenSailor]

A dealer is offering hellcat crate crate motors for just over $20 a horsepower someone needs to maranize one of these.

http://www.thedrive.com/news/19418/hellcat-all-the-things-with-a-heavily-discounted-hellcrate-engine

Edit: Fixed my math...

 

[Taboma]

A dealer is offering hellcat crate crate motors for just over $2 a horsepower someone needs to maranize one of these.

http://www.thedrive.com/news/19418/hellcat-all-the-things-with-a-heavily-discounted-hellcrate-engine

Several questions would need to be addressed. Such an example would be, is this motor built to withstand the far more extreme stress of marine use ? Example, running under extreme load and spending most of it's life cycle at closer to 4K RPM and higher, versus cruising at 2.2K or less, with bursts to 6K. I thought this was one of the major expense factors we endure with true marine engines.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Several questions would need to be addressed. Such an example would be, is this motor built to withstand the far more extreme stress of marine use ? Example, running under extreme load and spending most of it's life cycle at closer to 4K RPM and higher, versus cruising at 2.2K or less, with bursts to 6K. I thought this was one of the major expense factors we endure with true marine engines.

The GM LS3s and supercharged LSAs are off the GM assembly line and not opened up to “marinize” them. The engine does not know or care what it is powering, provided that it is kept at proper temp, tuned and lubricated properly, it will run fine.

That said, I agree you are not going to get the same life out of one that you get with a car because of the increased load and more RPM.

 

[Taboma]

The GM LS3s and supercharged LSAs are off the GM assembly line and not opened up to “marinize” them. The engine does not know or care what it is powering, provided that it is kept at proper temp, tuned and lubricated properly, it will run fine.

That said, I agree you are not going to get the same life out of one that you get with a car because of the increased load and more RPM.

Well then, enjoy your automotive crate engine while I enjoy my purpose built marine engine

 

[Rajobigguy]

A dealer is offering hellcat crate crate motors for just over $2 a horsepower someone needs to maranize one of these.

http://www.thedrive.com/news/19418/hellcat-all-the-things-with-a-heavily-discounted-hellcrate-engine

Your missing a zero in your calculation.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Well then, enjoy your automotive crate engine while I enjoy my purpose built marine engine

I have a Mercuriser marine engine in my boat LOL . It seems like the biggest challenge with the auto stuff is that it is designed to run at a certain temp which is hotter than what a boat runs so you must use the oil you would in a car, (5W30) in the case of LS engines.

I don't know what thermostats they run, and if they run hotter than 160. These engines in cars like 190+ coolant temps generally

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Your missing a zero in your calculation.

What did you expect from a Drunken Sailor

 

[Taboma]

I have a Mercuriser marine engine in my boat LOL

Oh I see how you are, you're looking for an engine test dummy ---- "Hey, look, try one of these and let me know how long it lasts", lol
It's a Dodge, don't leave the ramp without a paddle

Growing up with the ole school muscle cars I was always cruising at 3500-4000 RPM, now I look down at 80 and I'm barely busting 2000 90% of the time. Rarely even towing do I see higher than 3500 and it seems like the engine is screaming, lol.
Then I get in the boat and I'm rarely ever below 3500 and it seems perfect, hell my cam's still got a lope at 2000
I sincerely hope my 6.2 in my supercharged Camaro is as strong as you're leading me to believe, I want to believe every word

 

[Taboma]

I have a Mercuriser marine engine in my boat LOL . It seems like the biggest challenge with the auto stuff is that it is designed to run at a certain temp which is hotter than what a boat runs so you must use the oil you would in a car, (5W30) in the case of LS engines.

I don't know what thermostats they run, and if they run hotter than 160. These engines in cars like 190+ coolant temps generally

My SC Camaro has a 160 stat, runs Mobil 1 5W30, is tuned for same and runs perfect. With closed cooling they can probably get the temps up there. With raw water cooling my boat runs cold, I prefer a cool engine under the hatch, I just change the oil a lot more often.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Oh I see how you are, you're looking for an engine test dummy ---- "Hey, look, try one of these and let me know how long it lasts", lol
It's a Dodge, don't leave the ramp without a paddle

Growing up with the ole school muscle cars I was always cruising at 3500-4000 RPM, now I look down at 80 and I'm barely busting 2000 90% of the time. Rarely even towing do I see higher than 3500 and it seems like the engine is screaming, lol.
Then I get in the boat and I'm rarely ever below 3500 and it seems perfect, hell my cam's still got a lope at 2000
I sincerely hope my 6.2 in my supercharged Camaro is as strong as you're leading me to believe, I want to believe every word

People have been running Kodiak and Indmar marine LS3s and LSAs in jet bote applications for years now. The supercharged LSAs are are also used in 7marine outboards. It is not an outlandish idea. These all start out life on a GM assembly line. That is why a marinized LSA is only a couple grand more than a crate LSA. A Merc 565 that produces similar power is a lot more simply because of the economies of scale.

You have a ZL1 I assume? The engine is fine. I have the same engine in my supercharged Caddy.They are not built to lope down the freeway at 1800 RPM.. run it! I have had my Dad’s ZL1 out at Willow Springs a few times, it performed pretty well.

That said, I change the oil more frequently than the car tells me to. That is the part I don’t trust.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

My SC Camaro has a 160 stat, runs Mobil 1 5W30, is tuned for same and runs perfect. With closed cooling they can probably get the temps up there. With raw water cooling my boat runs cold, I prefer a cool engine under the hatch, I just change the oil a lot more often.

The NA built LS1 in my RX7 has a 160 stat. The car will never run below 175 or so. I don’t think the thermostat really opens enough (if at all) at 160.

I agree on the cooling, I think the closed cooling is how they make them live long term.

Certainly a different beast than the 6.2 SBC based small block in my boat.

 

[DrunkenSailor]

Your missing a zero in your calculation.

Yes I am lol.

 

[DrunkenSailor]

Before Mercury took over the industry people were running Oldsmobile, Ford, and Chevy crate motors in everything from small jet boats to large cabin cruisers. The Viper motors were a success for Ilmor. Ilmor, Indmar & Seven Marine have had great success with the Caddy motor. How many Merc motors start their life as a GM block? Optional closed cooling combined with new crank, cam, distributor, starter and alternator and bam marine engine.

 

[Taboma]

People have been running Kodiak and Indmar marine LS3s and LSAs in jet bote applications for years now. The supercharged LSAs are are also used in 7marine outboards. It is not an outlandish idea. These all start out life on a GM assembly line. That is why a marinized LSA is only a couple grand more than a crate LSA. A Merc 565 that produces similar power is a lot more simply because of the economies of scale.

You have a ZL1 I assume? The engine is fine. I have the same engine in my supercharged Caddy.They are not built to lope down the freeway at 1800 RPM.. run it! I have had my Dad’s ZL1 out at Willow Springs a few times, it performed pretty well.

That said, I change the oil more frequently than the car tells me to. That is the part I don’t trust.

Didn't realize that the marinized 6.2s were running stock GM internals, but perhaps they come from the factory with the right parts.
Back in the day, higher performance automotive cam profiles weren't built for the low end grunt and most internals seemed underwhelming as well.

Nah, my ole Hennessey HPE550 2012 45th anniversary Camaro preceded the release of the ZL-1. It's just a kick in the ass wolf in sheep's clothing and as a garage princess with barely 6K miles, not so much invested that I lose any sleep over it being parked most of the time. Years back I had a lot more expensive cars occupying that space and it tended to bug me.
As I've mentioned to you before, prior to this ole-man's Camaro, I had that Whippled 5.0 Mega-Monster Miata, that fuckin thing was hell bent on trying to kill me, lol.
I heard it's now been turned into a full time track car, so if you run Willow you may run into it.

 

[Taboma]

Before Mercury took over the industry people were running Oldsmobile, Ford, and Chevy crate motors in everything from small jet boats to large cabin cruisers. The Viper motors were a success for Ilmor. Ilmor, Indmar & Seven Marine have had great success with the Caddy motor. How many Merc motors start their life as a GM block? Optional closed cooling combined with new crank, cam, distributor, starter and alternator and bam marine engine.

OMG the shit we used to run in the late 60s-70's jetboats and V-drives --- drive em till they blew, toss in new, usually used, parts wherever we could scrounge them, fire it back up and keep on truckin, lol
I'm fairly confident, that Merc internals are not all the same, despite the origin of the block, but more dictated by the intended power level. I believe this is all part of the equation in How Fast Can you Afford to Go ? In addition to, How Long do you want it to run that fast ?

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Didn't realize that the marinized 6.2s were running stock GM internals, but perhaps they come from the factory with the right parts.
Back in the day, higher performance automotive cam profiles weren't built for the low end grunt and most internals seemed underwhelming as well.

Nah, my ole Hennessey HPE550 2012 45th anniversary Camaro preceded the release of the ZL-1. It's just a kick in the ass wolf in sheep's clothing and as a garage princess with barely 6K miles, not so much invested that I lose any sleep over it being parked most of the time. Years back I had a lot more expensive cars occupying that space and it tended to bug me.
As I've mentioned to you before, prior to this ole-man's Camaro, I had that Whippled 5.0 Mega-Monster Miata, that fuckin thing was hell bent on trying to kill me, lol.
I heard it's now been turned into a full time track car, so if you run Willow you may run into it.
View attachment 628918

Nice. V8 Miatas are a handfull. My RX7 is easier to drive than a Miata with the same power.

All the OE v8 stuff is pretty robust these days, but are made to run within very specific tolerances, obviously.

I have no idea if any of that translates to the modern Dodge stuff. I know the Ford 6.2 V8 was also used in the same way for Ski boats. My thought initially for the Dodge stuff would be yes, but the Hellcat engine could run very tight piston to wall clearances that would not leave much margin for error in a marine application.. I don't know for sure. The 04 Cobra supercharged 4.6 was set up that way, with about .001 PTW.... I'd never run something that tight in a boat.

As for the oiling system in a boat, with a modern engine if you run the right weight oil at the right temp and keep the pickup submerged, it *should* just work .

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

OMG the shit we used to run in the late 60s-70's jetboats and V-drives --- drive em till they blew, toss in new, usually used, parts wherever we could scrounge them, fire it back up and keep on truckin, lol
I'm fairly confident, that Merc internals are not all the same, despite the origin of the block, but more dictated by the intended power level. I believe this is all part of the equation in How Fast Can you Afford to Go ? In addition to, How Long do you want it to run that fast ?

The Merc stuff is different, as they assemble their own engines on their own line. I don't think anything they offer is from GM directly aside from some parts anymore.

I don't know what Volvo Penta does, as they have some LT based direct injected engines with variable valve timing of 5.3L and 6.2L up to 430 HP... Sounds like the engine options out of your GM SUV

 

[spectras only]

Taboma, in the 70's, 80's all jetboats from Harman, Hardin etc..... ran on stock crate engines. Only changes were made are brass freeze plugs and the accompanied marine carb, alternator, starter and distributor with screens. Merc sterndrive packages were the same with

 

[spectras only]

Taboma, in the 70's, 80's all jetboats from Harman, Hardin etc..... ran on stock crate engines. Only changes were made are brass freeze plugs and the accompanied marine carb, alternator, starter and distributor with screens. Some came with different cams for little more performance for boats. Merc sterndrive packages were the same with brass thermostat inserts. The 6.2 Mercs in my boat are OEM stock with a 'special billet cam' that you can find from Summit, Jegs or GM.

 

[Taboma]

Nice. V8 Miatas are a handfull. My RX7 is easier to drive than a Miata with the same power.

All the OE v8 stuff is pretty robust these days, but are made to run within very specific tolerances, obviously.

I have no idea if any of that translates to the modern Dodge stuff. I know the Ford 6.2 V8 was also used in the same way for Ski boats. My thought initially for the Dodge stuff would be yes, but the Hellcat engine could run very tight piston to wall clearances that would not leave much margin for error in a marine application.. I don't know for sure. The 04 Cobra supercharged 4.6 was set up that way, with about .001 PTW.... I'd never run something that tight in a boat.

As for the oiling system in a boat, with a modern engine if you run the right weight oil at the right temp and keep the pickup submerged, it *should* just work .

I'd imagine that roughly 6" of extra wheelbase keeps the ass-end from trying to pass you as often as mine did --- braking or accelerating
I know Martin (V8Miata) was working on a few RX7 conversions, some with chevys and he just mentioned smogging a new Miata conversion with a LS3 I believe. Given your passion you probably know or have heard of Martin Wilson, the first NA monster I bought was his car, then I went kinda ape-shit with Dave Hopps for the Monster 2.0 version. Never had another car that made me giggle like that one, but much of the time it was a nervous giggle, hidden under that happy smiley face

 

[n2otoofast4u]

Does that price include an ECU?

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Does that price include an ECU?

That’s where they get you LOL.

 

[Taboma]

Taboma, in the 70's, 80's all jetboats from Harman, Hardin etc..... ran on stock crate engines. Only changes were made are brass freeze plugs and the accompanied marine carb, alternator, starter and distributor with screens. Merc sterndrive packages were the same with

The first time I tried to hot rod my 17' Formula Jr. I/O back in the late 60's I learned that up at Lake Arrowhead (1 mile high) a high performance 289 cam, wouldn't work cuz the damned engine ran backwards Then I learned that the same Hi-Perf profile (Now running in proper rotation) wouldn't work either cuz the damned boat didn't have enough low end torque to get on plane.
All I recall is my dad laughing his ass off and asking over and over "Have you learned anything yet ?"
Towed the boat home and pulled the damned engine AGAIN, lol
Jet boats had so much slip out of the hole they'd just rev to the moon so most anything would build torque and run. After we got a bit smarter and started using truck blocks with 4 bolt mains and in general better internals, we wrenched a lot less.
Things were different before the internet, a lot more trial and error for sure.

 

[ChevelleSB406]

I am not sure what the cam profile is like in any of the auto engines you are discussing, but isn't that a concern if you aren't running a fully dry exhaust? Water reversion being the issue here. Whenever we discuss how much more power you can make with the same engine and cubic inch limit with a car versus a marine application, its one of the things that comes up. Basically, one of the reasons 525 hp out of a 502 costs way more in a marine application than car is that you can't get as aggressive on the cam and have to make power the hard way

 

[wsuwrhr]

Why wouldn't you just run a stand alone system anyway?

Does that price include an ECU?

That’s where they get you LOL.

 

[spectras only]

Taboma, read the story about OEM engine install here. http://www.riverdavesplace.com/forums/threads/scratch-built-33-single-engined-boat-by-craig.4456/

Me and my friend did the project together, that engine is still in the boat commuting between Vancouver and Vancouver island. Only issue we had was the faulty Stelling dry exhaust cracking at the flange, resulting valve drop and two pistons gonzo. We had replaced the Stellings withEddie Marine manifold and very tall risers to stop reversion.

Ps; I should add, the jacuzzi is fully functional, propane heater installed in the anchor locker to provide warm water.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Why wouldn't you just run a stand alone system anyway?

Mopar offers a plug and play engine controller for the Hellcats and other hemi crate engines now.

But yea anything could work.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I am not sure what the cam profile is like in any of the auto engines you are discussing, but isn't that a concern if you aren't running a fully dry exhaust? Water reversion being the issue here. Whenever we discuss how much more power you can make with the same engine and cubic inch limit with a car versus a marine application, its one of the things that comes up. Basically, one of the reasons 525 hp out of a 502 costs way more in a marine application than car is that you can't get as aggressive on the cam and have to make power the hard way

The auto engines have very mild cams because they are supposed to pass emissions in a car. Not a ton of excess overlap at all, so there should be no issues with reversion in a boat application.

 

[riverroyal]

Thats a hell of a deal to drop in a street rod.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Fun Fact -

Did you know it actually costs FCA more to produce a 3.5 Pentastar direct injected V6 than it does to produce an entire Hellcat engine, supercharger included?

 

[Bigbore500r]

Well then, enjoy your automotive crate engine while I enjoy my purpose built marine engine

You know 502 Mags, 496 Mags, etc are factory GM motors

Oh I see how you are, you're looking for an engine test dummy ---- "Hey, look, try one of these and let me know how long it lasts", lol
It's a Dodge, don't leave the ramp without a paddle

Growing up with the ole school muscle cars I was always cruising at 3500-4000 RPM, now I look down at 80 and I'm barely busting 2000 90% of the time. Rarely even towing do I see higher than 3500 and it seems like the engine is screaming, lol.
Then I get in the boat and I'm rarely ever below 3500 and it seems perfect, hell my cam's still got a lope at 2000
I sincerely hope my 6.2 in my supercharged Camaro is as strong as you're leading me to believe, I want to believe every word

The lower HP merc / volvo stuff isn't as different from a "car" motor as they'd like you to believe
You know a 496mag is a stock GM 8.1 truck motor right? Right down to the cast pistons, camshaft, etc

 

[Taboma]

You know 502 Mags, 496 Mags, etc are factory GM motors


The lower HP merc / volvo stuff isn't as different from a "car" motor as they'd like you to believe
You know a 496mag is a stock GM 8.1 truck motor right? Right down to the cast pistons, camshaft, etc

Never owned one, but using the truck motor, I'm guessing the max torque is achieved at around mid 3Ks, has 4 bolt mains and is constructed to operate at Merc's intended HP level. A few of those basic specs differentiates it from many car versus truck engines and in that sense makes it heavy versus light duty.
The fact I discovered the hard way in my youth was, an engine that makes torque at high rpms, doesn't work well for getting a deep-vee I/O on plane quickly, or dragging fat-ass skiers up from a deep start.
Jet boats on the other hand can generate high rpms out of the hole, so not similar in that respect.

 

[pronstar]

Fun Fact -

Did you know it actually costs FCA more to produce a 3.5 Pentastar direct injected V6 than it does to produce an entire Hellcat engine, supercharger included?

Source?
I would tink economies of scale alone would favor the V6..?

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Source?
I would tink economies of scale alone would favor the V6..?

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

It is all the extra machining operations that have to be done on the heads, for DI, and overhead cams in the v6. It was awhile ago, I will see if I can find the info.

 

[Rotten deal]

Anyone know of some good shops that could handle the job of installing one of these in a cuda?

 

[spectras only]

I'm guessing the max torque is achieved at around mid 3Ks, has 4 bolt mains and is constructed to operate at Merc's intended HP level. A few of those basic specs differentiates it from many car versus truck engines and in that sense makes it heavy versus light duty.

The 502 HO crate engine has 558 lbs torque @ 3400rpm. Perfect for any boat application, jet or sterndrive.
Sold many Tonawanda packages to jet boaters. it makes nearly 500 lb.-ft. by only 1,750 rpm, meaning it has all the low-rpm grunt you can use! To support all that torque, this Big-Block starts with the latest-generation block casting with four-bolt main caps and built with all-forged rotating assembly for exceptional strength and durability.

http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/big-block-502-ho

Here's one I put together for a jetboat

 

[pronstar]

It is all the extra machining operations that have to be done on the heads, for DI, and overhead cams in the v6. It was awhile ago, I will see if I can find the info.

I could see it being true if we exclude economies of scale...the tooling to produce pushrod V8s has long since been paid for.

As an example, the CE of the previous-Gen Ford Ford Raptor once stated that the cost of the Fox shocks used in the truck, cost the company more than the V8 engine in the truck.


There’s no doubt that a high-content modern engine is very expensive to build [emoji106]




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Taboma]

The 502 HO crate engine has 558 lbs torque @ 3400rpm. Perfect for any boat application, jet or sterndrive.
Sold many Tonawanda packages to jet boaters.
http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/big-block-502-ho

Here's one I put together for a jetboat

After all these years reading your posts, I never realized you were in the boat business, other than as a hobby. I mostly identify you with exotic cars and those fast Dodges that sound funny ---
Are you able to get and easily mount the marine rated bolt-ons for these crate engines ? Are you replacing the freeze plugs ?
Seems like a good deal price wise.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I could see it being true if we exclude economies of scale...the tooling to produce pushrod V8s has long since been paid for.

As an example, the CE of the previous-Gen Ford Ford Raptor once stated that the cost of the Fox shocks used in the truck, cost the company more than the V8 engine in the truck.


There’s no doubt that a high-content modern engine is very expensive to build [emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I agree, and I believe economies of scale were excluded. This was talked about when the Hellcat came out.. so a few years ago. It was info from a power train engineer in a conversation about core shift of engine blocks during the machining process on another forum.

Basically on a OHC engine there can be almost no core shift, which drives up the cost of machining all the raw castings significantly, and those machining processes are a lot more complex with an OHC engine. With the V8 you find the crank center line, square things up from there and it just works (i'm overly simplifying that).

I had heard that about the Raptor Fox shocks as well LOL.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I mostly identify you with exotic cars and those fast Dodges that sound funny ---

I LOLed.

 

[spectras only]

I used to work with my friend at california marine until the end of 2016, then retired from Kodak where i was a technician. I moed away from Vancouverustle and bustle to the Okanagan. Dave I were friends from early 70's. I did his jetdrive, v-drive rebuilds. I did the occasional engine rebuilds for myself and friends only at his shop. His main business was selling HP parts for boats and cars, dating back to the late 60's.
He's getting close to 80 [ still super fit for his age ] but finally, selling the shop and business to retire. He does what he do for to stay out of his wife's way.

 

[spectras only]

I LOLed.

Taboma hasn't heard the exhaust of my Viper since I removed the cats recently.
Area 27 opens April first, I'll have a sound clip to post when I get on the track

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Taboma hasn't heard the exhaust of my Viper since I removed the cats recently.
Area 27 opens April first, I'll have a sound clip to post when I get on the track

I’ll bet that sounds great. Your Viper is rear exhaust, correct?

 

[spectras only]

yes, rear exhaust with two s/s free flow magnaflows that replaced the OEM single muffler. Still have the resonators to keep drone to minimal.
Factory single muffler with OEM dual tips