Heated Driveways?

[whiteworks]

Anyone have any experience with these? I am thinking that this would be a really nice feature for the houses we have been building in the mountains. I am looking for a cost effective bullet proof way to do them.

 

[Wakker]

What the hell is a heated driveway?

 

[BoatCop]

Anyone have any experience with these? I am thinking that this would be a really nice feature for the houses we have been building in the mountains. I am looking for a cost effective bullet proof way to do them.

If you could figure out a geothermal way to do it............

 

[whiteworks]

What the hell is a heated driveway?

Heats the driveway, melts the snow. No shoveling required

If you could figure out a geothermal way to do it............

explain?

 

[BoatCop]

Heats the driveway, melts the snow. No shoveling required


explain?

Below the surface of the ground, temperatures will maintain well above freezing. Probably in the mid 50*s.

If you could devise a series of PVC/ABS coils buried 10-15 feet underground and circulate an oil based (natural or synthetic) fluid through these to coils imbedded in the driveway, the temp of the driveway would be more than high enough to keep it ice and snow free.

The only electrical would be to run the pump to circulate the oil. More efficient than any type of electrical heating coils, and could even be used to provide heat to the home in the winter and cooling in the summer.

http://www.alliantenergygeothermal.com/stellent2/groups/public/documents/pub/geo_how_001211.hcsp

 

[Riverbottom]

I am hoping that when I drill the well on my property in Idaho, that the water temperature is warm enough to do this. I am right on the river, and there is a spring in front of my place and the river never freezes. Would hope that it is warm enough to do geo thermal heating on the driveway.

 

[alohajeff]

I have no experience installing or designing them... but have first hand experience in how poorly they can work. The primary benefit of our heated driveway allowed us to make clearing off ice that was in the shade easier. If the system was activated well BEFORE the storm it would keep up with a light to moderate snowfall. During the bigger storms it would start out ok and if the snowfall hit 2" inches or more per hour it would start to accumulate and from that point on the heated driveway was simply burning money. The $$$ that was spent installing the system and the $$$ pissed away operating it would have been far better spent on the 4 series Bobcat that my folks ended up purchasing. Even when our driveway was perfectly clear during a small storm we would still have a berm where the driveway met the road. This required the use of a trusty Honda blower and at times a shovel to break it up. The heated walkways on the other hand were great. Not having to use salt or cinders on the walkway to the door kept the house much cleaner and in better shape. This was 12-15 years ago at my folks place. Our place in Utah had a heated driveway and it never worked because nobody was there to turn it on before the storm. With new remote administration software it would be easy enough to turn it on before a storm rolled in.

Fast forward to this year... my moms neighbor has a newer home with a heated driveway system. It still has the same problems as the old system. During the big December 2008 storm Arrowhead received 3' of snow and the rate at which the snow fell was greater than the driveway could keep up with. Instead of 3' of snow the heated driveway ended up with 2'11" on it. The berm was 6' high and 8' thick. No standard driveway heating system I've ever seen can generate enough BTU's to melt that size mass of snow/ice.

Aloha

 

[RandyH]

I heat my garage floor with it. We also routed the masterbath floor and a three seasons porch using the same boiler.

http://www.munchkinboiler.net/

Here at home I use a 350,000 BTU for a 30 x 30 garage and about 20 x 30 outside apron. Works awesome for snow removal. I wish I had done my whole driveway but its 300 feet long.

Some of the places I have rented out in Colorado at Copper and Aspen have their entire driveways and sidewalks heated. 30 x 100 easily. The boilers I saw out there where in the 500,000 BTU range.

Mine pumps out about 110 degree water into zones. Returns at about 60 degrees. I went 7 inch concrete with foam insulation below it. Best I can tell its a firetube boiler with a small bundled water heat exchanger. It runs plastic pipe for its intake and exhaust so it must be at least 95% efficient.

thats about all i know. I would do it all over again.

 

[whiteworks]

I heat my garage floor with it. We also routed the masterbath floor and a three seasons porch using the same boiler.

http://www.munchkinboiler.net/

Here at home I use a 350,000 BTU for a 30 x 30 garage and about 20 x 30 outside apron. Works awesome for snow removal. I wish I had done my whole driveway but its 300 feet long.

Some of the places I have rented out in Colorado at Copper and Aspen have their entire driveways and sidewalks heated. 30 x 100 easily. The boilers I saw out there where in the 500,000 BTU range.

Mine pumps out about 110 degree water into zones. Returns at about 60 degrees. I went 7 inch concrete with foam insulation below it. Best I can tell its a firetube boiler with a small bundled water heat exchanger. It runs plastic pipe for its intake and exhaust so it must be at least 95% efficient.

thats about all i know. I would do it all over again.

What was the cost of the equipment involved? Roughly what do think its costs to operate?

 

[Crazyhippy]

Mine is solar heated... Hot enough to burn your feet in the summer

 

[RandyH]

What was the cost of the equipment involved? Roughly what do think its costs to operate?

2,800 was the boiler thru my plumbing contractor. The general added 1500 to lay the pipes in the garage and 800 to run the outside pipes.. I went 7 inch concrete with Fiber so I could get it sloped to a drain and still have a nominal 5 inch thickness. that added about 600 extra. The fiber hopefully prevents cracking and I had them get carried away on the control joints too. Then I had to put in a sand filter for the drain and plumb it to the city sewer. That was not expected and ran 4K. That one hurt. But it melts the cars after every trip and I am glad the drain is in now.

It runs all winter, the pumps are Variable Speed and I can hear them churning now. I would guess its about 150 dollars extra a month in the winter. For gas and Electrical (pumps). it All gets shut down in the summer. So figure 5 months operation. I am heating about 2000 square feet between the drive, garage, bathroom and porch. So about .38 cents a sqaure for the 5 months. if that helps less the cost of the install and equipment.

I was able to reprogram the controller to run hotter water going out . It was set for 70 degrees and didnt do the driveway snow melt well when it was coming down heavy. I reset it for 110 degrees and its capable of 160 degrees but I was worried about cracking the driveway.

I noticed out at Copper Mountain last week that they lay the piping right in the sand below the brick pavers. They are laying it everywhere. Thousands of sqaure feet around the resort. You will see 3 foot piles of snow right up next to a dry patio paver walkway. good luck with it.

 

[vegasDodge]

But you are talking about a garage floor that is in an enclosed area that once heated, doesnt need that much to maintain. There is no shelter on a driveway and personally I think it would be pretty costly to run.

 

[RandyH]

The outside apron runs on its own zone and is continuous. The other three zones run on a thermostate. The outside zone runs constant unless I manually shut it down. But I dont. It takes too long to ramp up the thermomass. So I just leave it on and is figured into those costs.

 

[TPC]

I've seen buried coils where they heat the drive and walkways during the winter, then do reverse duty in the summer and heat the pool.

If you use copper pipe use the thick wall stuff and sil-floss (higher temp solder) the connections for durability.

 

[lawbreaker2]

You don't need it, get your lazy ass out there and just shovel it or have a few kids do it.
But yes seen a few here but only on the rich side of town so it must not be cheap.:hmm

 

[Yellowboat]

just make sure you have a way to remove the water that is created, just letting it run off into the street is a great way to have a nice patch of ice at the end of the driveway.

All the systems I have seen that actually work well have a trench drain( that is also heated) to a water drainage system that is below the frost line.

It also should be noted that most systmes are not with slabs, they are done with either stone or pavers.

 

[Flying_Lavey]

Were just now getting into the radiant heating stuff here at work and Ive been reading up on some of the snow melt systems and all. Now, Im definitely no expert on the snow melt system but I will say, the geothermal idea that Boatcop had, although its a nice "green" idea, wont work worth a crap. You're dealing with VERY high temperature changes. Look at the temps Randy H is talking about. Going out at 110 and returning at 60. Thats a 50 degree temp decrease. There is NO WAY a geothermal system would be able to do maintain that. As far as initial costs, it all depends on how extravagant you want to get with the system and its controls. The controls are really the key to the system and could be the most costly. With variable speed pumps and a few strategically located thermistors, the system wouldnt cost all that much to run. The pumps would throttle down when the load isnt that high or could even shut off if its warm enough.

It all depends on what you want to do with it. Id imagine if you are building a higher end home in an area that gets a lot of snow and has a drive way that runs all the way to the street (no public sidewalk) then it would make definite sense. But, again, its all about how much you want to spend.

 

[TBI]

They are the shit in this neck of the woods. :thumbsup

 

[River Lynchmob]

My folks have one in Utah...it is expensive. Here is how it is set up. They have a 700 KBTU boiler. The exiting water temp is 165 the return is 60. The supply and return water are mixed as it goes into the manifold by the front door by the driveway and the temp there is 90. From the manifold there is 1/2" pipes that run throughout the driveway. The system is controlled both by a temp sensor and a moisture sensor. Both need to be activated for the boiler to fire up. It works well but every now and then the boiler will need to be manually reset if is snows too hard it will actually build up snow around the flue before it fires up and will have to be removed by hand (that will be fixed in the spring) The operating cost of the boiler is $2,000 a month...for $2,000 a month I told my dad I would shovel off their driveway. I am not sure what the installation costs were for the system...I would have to assume it is well into the 5 digits.

Here are a couple of pics after it had to be reset when there was about a foot of snow on the driveway...it took about 2 hours to go from the 1st two to the last one. If it fires up right away there is zero snow build up...it melts on contact.

 

[Flying_Lavey]

My folks have one in Utah...it is expensive. Here is how it is set up. They have a 700 KBTU boiler. The exiting water temp is 165 the return is 60. The supply and return water are mixed as it goes into the manifold by the front door by the driveway and the temp there is 90. From the manifold there is 1/2" pipes that run throughout the driveway. The system is controlled both by a temp sensor and a moisture sensor. Both need to be activated for the boiler to fire up. It works well but every now and then the boiler will need to be manually reset if is snows too hard it will actually build up snow around the flue before it fires up and will have to be removed by hand (that will be fixed in the spring) The operating cost of the boiler is $2,000 a month...for $2,000 a month I told my dad I would shovel off their driveway. I am not sure what the installation costs were for the system...I would have to assume it is well into the 5 digits.

Here are a couple of pics after it had to be reset when there was about a foot of snow on the driveway...it took about 2 hours to go from the 1st two to the last one. If it fires up right away there is zero snow build up...it melts on contact.

View attachment 41474

View attachment 41475

View attachment 41476

Lynch, how is that $2,000 a month broken down if you know? Like how much is for the gas (is it natural gas or propane and how much for the electricity?

Dylan, another thing to keep in mind is that the boiler COULD replace the domestic hot water heater so you could eliminate that cost.

 

[River Lynchmob]

Lynch, how is that $2,000 a month broken down if you know? Like how much is for the gas (is it natural gas or propane and how much for the electricity?

Dylan, another thing to keep in mind is that the boiler COULD replace the domestic hot water heater so you could eliminate that cost.

That is the cost for the natural gas for the boiler alone. We compared the gas bill during the summer and the winter and pulled out what the average was during summer months.

Electrical is minimal for one pump.

We have two seperate 75 gal hot water heaters. You don't want to fire up a 700 KBTU boiler to heat the small amt of domestic hot water that is used.

 

[Flying_Lavey]

That is the cost for the natural gas for the boiler alone. We compared the gas bill during the summer and the winter and pulled out what the average was during summer months.

Electrical is minimal for one pump.

We have two seperate 75 gal hot water heaters. You don't want to fire up a 700 KBTU boiler to heat the small amt of domestic hot water that is used.

That is true. I just wanted to throw that out there cause I have seen it done in a lot of articles that Ive had to read lately.

 

[Deleted Account]

I heard pretty much what Lynch is saying. My inlaws are going to build a big garage in Fawnskin with about a 200' drive. He got the const costs, then starting asking around. These babies are spendy to operate if you have a bunch of snow, for sure...

BTW Lynch, I shoveled it last time. It gets old, quick. LOL.:thumbsup

 

[River Lynchmob]

I heard pretty much what Lynch is saying. My inlaws are going to build a big garage in Fawnskin with about a 200' drive. He got the const costs, then starting asking around. These babies are spendy to operate if you have a bunch of snow, for sure...

BTW Lynch, I shoveled it last time. It gets old, quick. LOL.:thumbsup

200' is a lot more than my folks have...probably a little more than double...after last winter I doubt I would do it for $2k a month...I would be at my brothers place and we would use a snow blower at night and in the morning there would be another foot there and he had about 30' of driveway and that got real old...quick.

 

[Deleted Account]

LOL. I keep asking him about a snow blower. He says between myself and his son, and our kids, if you want to snow ski and boat, get with the snow shovel...

Doh! We had about 3 feet last time. Just when I got it done, here comes a guy with a big Cat tire loader. He said for $50 he would have knocked it out... I have his number in my phone now. Hahaha.

 

[whiteworks]

I'm getting some mixed messages here on operating costs ($150 a month - $2000 a month) something isnt adding up.

 

[Deleted Account]

LOL just put one in and let us know how it works D...:thumbsup

 

[Bobby V]

I'm getting some mixed messages here on operating costs ($150 a month - $2000 a month) something isnt adding up.

Some good info.

http://www.comfortradiant.com/snow-melting.php

 

[River Lynchmob]

I'm getting some mixed messages here on operating costs ($150 a month - $2000 a month) something isnt adding up.

All depends on how much you use it I supose...When it doesn't snow there is almost $0 operating cost

 

[Flying_Lavey]

All depends on how much you use it I supose...When it doesn't snow there is almost $0 operating cost

Id have to agree. Id think if its for a vacation house that gets used maybe once or twice a month and you can get some sort of online control system so you can turn it on from home and it be ready by the time you got there, it could be worth it. But, thats up to the homeowner Id assume. And i bet the price of gas is different in Park City than it is in Big Bear/Arrowhead area.