WELCOME TO RIVER DAVES PLACE

Africa, The future is bleak; Caution ****GRAPHIC POACHING PHOTO"S*****

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,258
Reaction score
23,712
Counterintuitive.

Most folks here know I'm a serious hunter. I do consider myself to be an ethical international sportsman. I travel the world looking for adventure. Wanderlust always has and always will fill my soul. I crave new, dangerous and fantastic places, I fear complacency and stagnation as I would a death sentence.

I have fished and hunted this incredible globe for the last 20 plus years looking for those last few remaining wild places. Adventure must be sought out as it is never delivered easily.

I recently retuned from Tanzania, East Africa. Yes, I was hunting and no, this is not a hunting thread. There will be no hunting pictures.

This is simply a thread to hopefully engage and educate my friends and perhaps even those who find me repugnant because I do hunt. The realities on the ground and the images of who and what threatens these very places and creatures, you may find interesting.

Africa means many different things to different people. There is no right and there is no wrong, there is only the truth. My Africa is about the men and the dust and the diesel, it sticks to your skin, it cannot be washed away nor does it wane. Her magnificent animals and indigenous hard peoples have left a deep and permanent mark in my life. I have been to most of Sub-Saharan Africa and she is changing and not for the better. My life is better, due to my relationship with the African continent.

I say this with much introspection and contemplation as to the future of the continent.

Africa is calling out for to us for help. Her bounty is being plundered. Plundered by the Chinese and to a lesser degree, other Asian cultures. Plundered for its Ivory.

The hunting concession I was in, is roughly 3250 square kilometers. That's damn big. There are merely 5 elephant bulls on the annual hunting quota for the entire block (I was not hunting elephants). I will go on record, right now and state, elephant hunting in all of Tanzania, should be immediately stopped. Not because of me or people like me, but because the Asian markets desire to have ivory chopsticks, figurines and dildos, more than they care for elephants to remain for their heirs to enjoy.

As you can see by the photographs, it's beyond brutal. The poachers sit and wait at water and simply assassinate any elephant with any ivory, whatsoever. Once dead, the poachers just simply cut the face off the animals, take the ivory and fuck off. I lost count of the carcasses. If I had to guess, it was in the low to mid 100's. I saw a grand total of 9 live elephants. The Professional hunter I had, told me in every preceding season, they would see 100-150 elephants every day. They are all but gone.

IMG_0878.jpg

IMG_0879.jpg

IMG_0743.jpg

IMG_0745.jpg

IMG_0746.jpg

There is yet another unintended consequence to this poaching. It affects all the animals in the hunting block. I was there in late October thru early November, which is the end of the dry season. The rains come usually in late November. The rivers here are what are called "sand rivers". There is much ground water, it is, in most cases, 4-6 feet beneath the surface. The elephants, use their tusks to dig holes to drink. These holes allow for all the other animals to also drink. Without these holes, the animals will and are dying horrible deaths from dehydration. I must have seen 200 dried up carcasses of Zebra, Wildebeests , Sable and Cape Buffalo.

IMG_0747.jpg

IMG_0939.jpg

IMG_0941.jpg

Every minute of every day, every where we hunted, the rancid, putrid aroma of rotting flesh, permeated the air. My nostrils actually began to burn from the consistent smell of death. Vultures were everywhere, it looked like a horror movie, especially when we would arrive at a "waterhole" that had but a few swallows of water remaining. We spent many hours widening and deepening these holes. If we returned the next day, the massive amount of watering animals would push the sand we removed back into the water, rendering it nearly useless.

IMG_0742.jpg

On my second hunting day, we came across one of these holes in a sand river. It was actually dug into an overhanging bank. There was a adolescent Cape Buffalo who had stuck his head in the hole to drink. His horns got caught in the top of the hole. He was struggling mightily to free himself, his back, along his spine was bleeding from it rubbing it raw against the top of the hole, in its struggle for life.

IMG_0730.jpg

The hunting team, including the Tanzanian game department scout, who accompanies all hunting safaris, all tried to figure out how to free this stuck animal. We even attempted to tie a rope around his legs to extract him with the cruiser. We were unsuccessful. Eventually it came down to the harsh realities of life for these animals, die humanely, or be eaten alive by lions, who had been there just prior us.

Personally, I didn't want to euthanize a trapped, immobile animal. Conversely, I can't imagine the horror of being consumed while alive by lions or hyenas. We chose a fast humane end to his suffering.

I was deeply affected by this trip. The overwhelming sense of sorrow I feel for these animals will stay with me for my remaining days. I now see how some others may feel about my hunting. However, It doesn't change my outlook on sport hunting. As a matter of fact, the poachers have free reign in these wild areas because there isn't adequate safari hunting going on. Fact; hunting/hunters stop poaching.

A depressing photo that shows the seriousness of the symbiotic relationship between a healthy elephant population and the "plains game" animals. This sable was only feet from both our Cruiser and a dry waterhole that he had probably used his entire life. This magnificent sable bull was too weak to stand. If he lived to see the morning I would be surprised. We drove away and left him to Africa. Just prior to this, we came across an elephant bull with approximately 25 pound tusks. He had a "Tanzanian bracelet" on his left front foot. A wire snare that was cutting into his foot. He will eventually lose his foot and or his life. There was nothing we could do. A helpless feeling of hopelessness overwhelmed me for much of my time on this safari.

IMG_0891.jpg

The entire hunting team would drive for long periods of time in a silent state of shock at the conditions.

The day after the sable, we drove (tried) to check on his condition. The pictures here tell all you need to know. I can't imagine the horrible death. The circle of life.

IMG_0893.jpg

This animal is called a Kongoni. It is in the Hartebeest family. We pulled it out of this mud hole at around 9am. We pulled its body out into the bush. We drove back past it around 4pm the very same day. Africa is terribly efficient.

IMG_0944.jpg

IMG_0949.jpg

I am in no way trying to change any minds here, just laying out facts with hard, saddening photographic evidence to support my position and the position for conservation through well managed hunting. Some here, whom I've debated lively, wonder why a hunter wants to save something, just so he may later have the opportunity to kill it. I agree, it's counterintuitive, yet taking the few to save the many also has sound wildlife conservation merits.

In closing I will openly admit that the death I witnessed on this safari saddened me. I am internally conflicted and will do some soul searching. One side of me wants to save these beasts . The other side is wise enough to know they must have hunters in the field to offer them the protections they need from threats they don't understand.

The grim beast that threatens them has no shame, no morals and no mercy.
 

GRADS

Phishing license is paid up to date
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
19,348
Reaction score
23,503
C'mon RD....I'd rather see porn than this shit on the site.:thumbsdown
 

rivrrts429

Arch Stanton...
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
21,230
Reaction score
45,338
That's brutal. The poachers are wiping that place out and systematically destroying whole herds elephant by elephant.

I was looking forward to hearing some better news and some successful hunts you had.
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,258
Reaction score
23,712
That's brutal. The poachers are wiping that place out and systematically destroying whole herds elephant by elephant.

I was looking forward to hearing some better news and some successful hunts you had.

The hunting part was fine. But the poaching was off the charts brutal. I will send those whom wish to see the hunting part pictures privately. I get it, this place has no stomach for hunting pictures.
 

NicPaus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
13,987
Reaction score
14,682
Would you get in trouble if you shot a poacher by accident? Thanks for the write up reality sucks sometimes but better to be informed of what is really going on.
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,258
Reaction score
23,712
Would you get in trouble if you shot a poacher by accident? Thanks for the write up reality sucks sometimes but better to be informed of what is really going on.

Poachers are NEVER shot by mistake. :D

The guy holding the tusks we recovered from another dead elephant was our Tanzanian Game Department scout. He had a .303 British combat rifle probably from WW2. He had 2 bullets.
 

Gelcoater

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2009
Messages
22,291
Reaction score
38,777
The hunting part was fine. But the poaching was off the charts brutal. I will send those whom wish to see the hunting part pictures privately. I get it, this place has no stomach for hunting pictures.

Ultimately,it's Daves site.He should be the final word on what you do or do not post.
There's a Great Outdoors section here,maybe with the same graphic warning title that's the place to post your hunting pics?

If people want to see it,there it is.If they don't then keep out and keep opinions out as well.Pretty simple really.
 

RiverDave

In it to win it
Joined
Sep 13, 2007
Messages
126,076
Reaction score
164,056
Nganga don't take this the wrong way because I don't care if people hunt or not.. But let's say I was going to go shoot an elephant and got the tag etc... It's pretty obvious you couldn't take the entire carcass with you just because of the tonnages involved.. So I would assume a normal hunt they would just cut the whole head off and take it home correct?

I guess what I am asking would be what would be the difference between a pic of that carcass and some these?
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,258
Reaction score
23,712
Nganga don't take this the wrong way because I don't care if people hunt or not.. But let's say I was going to go shoot an elephant and got the tag etc... It's pretty obvious you couldn't take the entire carcass with you just because of the tonnages involved.. So I would assume a normal hunt they would just cut the whole head off and take it home correct?

RD,

What you would see at a "normal" and legally sport hunted elephant is a scene like this. Hundreds of hungry locals.

I guess nothing Dave. If you find it offensive, I have no issue with you removing it. But this is what is happening to the worlds natural resources. If people just turn their backs in disgust, they stand no chance what so ever.

zimbabwe_elephant_05.jpg
 

Enen

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
6,045
Reaction score
4,160
There times like this when I listen to the conservationists and think they may have some valid points. Thanks for sharing this story. It is sad to see people exploit their environment beyond a reasonable means of survival.

I'd be up to go over there to hunt poachers and Chinese.
 

Chopperman

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2013
Messages
1,104
Reaction score
458
Very sad indeed. Poaching even exists close to home as well. Asian markets have such a high demand for Totoaba bladders (an endangered fish that lives in the gulf of Ca.) that they (poachers) have decimated the stock that's left swimming in Mexican waters. In the process poachers have killed so many Vaquitas (small porpoise) that they are nearly extinct. Estimates put numbers at around 50 Vaquitas are left. My friends and family that have retired and live in Baja tell me that the bladders are more lucrative than working, and many cartel members have given up on cocaine and marijuana smuggling and switched to poaching and smuggling Totoaba bladders. I'm told it's worth more than gold. I've heard up to 10 thousand dollars an ounce for bladders is what they can get. Scary stuff.
 

Stainless

Banned
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Messages
23,671
Reaction score
9,040
I'm against sport hunting, I just read something about the US considering imposing a $100k tariff on the importation of lion heads/skins killed in Africa for sport/trophys. Wish I would have copied the link.
Killing for sport is not conservation!
 

460

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
18,545
Reaction score
3,930
C'mon RD....I'd rather see porn than this shit on the site.:thumbsdown
Whys that? Because its easier to form an opinion based on what you see in the media rather then have it shown first hand? Poaching is a real problem not only where nganga was, but here in the states as well. But because the only thing talked about is people hunting, they are the ones who get blasted. Never a mention of the people who leave animals to waist, blast the hunter who either eat their meat of donate it to help others.

http://azgfd.net/artman/publish/New...atching-antelope-poacher-near-Flagstaff.shtml
http://azgfd.net/artman/publish/New...rmation-on-bull-elk-poached-near-Alpine.shtml

Once a week i read articles like the ones above. Poaching is a real problem.
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,258
Reaction score
23,712
I'd be up to go over there to hunt poachers and Chinese.



I was thinking the same thing after seeing these pictures.[/QUOTE]

The Obama administration is actually making some effort to address this. The problem as I see it is, as long as there is an Asian demand and corruptible people in Africa, it will never stop.

Very sad indeed. Poaching even exists close to home as well. Asian markets have such a high demand for Totoaba bladders (an endangered fish that lives in the gulf of Ca.) that they (poachers) have decimated the stock that's left swimming in Mexican waters. In the process poachers have killed so many Vaquitas (small porpoise) that they are nearly extinct. Estimates put numbers at around 50 Vaquitas are left. My friends and family that have retired and live in Baja tell me that the bladders are more lucrative than working, and many cartel members have given up on cocaine and marijuana smuggling and switched to poaching and smuggling Totoaba bladders. I'm told it's worth more than gold. I've heard up to 10 thousand dollars an ounce for bladders is what they can get. Scary stuff.

Same thing on Abalone and so many other species that have something they want or need to get a hard cock.
 

C-2

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
12,563
Reaction score
8,234
Very sad indeed. Poaching even exists close to home as well. Asian markets have such a high demand for Totoaba bladders (an endangered fish that lives in the gulf of Ca.) that they (poachers) have decimated the stock that's left swimming in Mexican waters. In the process poachers have killed so many Vaquitas (small porpoise) that they are nearly extinct. Estimates put numbers at around 50 Vaquitas are left. My friends and family that have retired and live in Baja tell me that the bladders are more lucrative than working, and many cartel members have given up on cocaine and marijuana smuggling and switched to poaching and smuggling Totoaba bladders. I'm told it's worth more than gold. I've heard up to 10 thousand dollars an ounce for bladders is what they can get. Scary stuff.

Dang, that's crazy stuff. 200 bladders for $3.6MM

And I thought Fugu and tetrodotoxin poisoning/Serpent and the Rainbow was wild.
 

underpressure

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2008
Messages
2,266
Reaction score
1,686
Wow, very sad deal! I am also a hunter and it is just shocking and sad to see this..

I appreciate the heartfelt concerns...

Do you think that there is anyway that this will ever be reversed?
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,258
Reaction score
23,712
Wow, very sad deal! I am also a hunter and it is just shocking and sad to see this..

I appreciate the heartfelt concerns...

Do you think that there is anyway that this will ever be reversed?

It will have to stop completely to turn around. We all agreed it would take 5-8 years for the elephant population to return to normal. This GMA (Game Management Area) I was in is smack dad between Mozambique and the Selous game reserve, the elephants migrate right through here. They will come back but the poaching must be stopped for it to work.
 

Chopperman

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2013
Messages
1,104
Reaction score
458
Dang, that's crazy stuff. 200 bladders for $3.6MM

And I thought Fugu and tetrodotoxin poisoning/Serpent and the Rainbow was wild.

Yes, I hear crazy numbers from them. I've seen the carnage firsthand. Beautiful fricking fish with their bellys cut out and the rest left to rot on the beach. Sometimes 30, 40, even 50 pound fish cut up. Not to mention the Vaquitas the destroy in the process of long lining. They don't even keep the meat. And it's good eating fish too. Sad that people just don't give a fuck.
 

jb600

Highly unusual
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
544
Reaction score
1,064
Ultimately,it's Daves site.He should be the final word on what you do or do not post.
There's a Great Outdoors section here,maybe with the same graphic warning title that's the place to post your hunting pics?

If people want to see it,there it is.If they don't then keep out and keep opinions out as well.Pretty simple really.

This! I'd like to see them.
 

Tank

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
20,899
Reaction score
49,546
I have a buddy that goes on hunts in Africa. Everything they shoot gets used there, sold off to the meat market and you as the hunter get the trophy head. Money hunters pay goes back into the preserves.

Poachers are douche bags.
It happens in the whaling industry and with the Dolphins and sharks too.

But stand by when all you sushi lovers can't get your Tuna tar tar or tuna belly or tuna sashimi etc. Tuna is fastly approaching critical lows.

Who the fuck wants ivory for the sake of ivory? Fucking lame. Synthetic material can match the texture look and feel of ivory all day long. If something I just haaaaaaad to have was causing some innocent creature to suffer horrible deaths and possible extinction but I could get the same shit but synthetic elsewhere with no harm, yea, I think I'd take the second choice.

Poachers are bad but laws should be off the hook for owning ivory. Then the demand might whither.
 

RiverDave

In it to win it
Joined
Sep 13, 2007
Messages
126,076
Reaction score
164,056
RD,

What you would see at a "normal" and legally sport hunted elephant is a scene like this. Hundreds of hungry locals.

I guess nothing Dave. If you find it offensive, I have no issue with you removing it. But this is what is happening to the worlds natural resources. If people just turn their backs in disgust, they stand no chance what so ever.

View attachment 446050

I don't find it offensive but a carcass is a carcass.. They all kinda look the same after a little bit.
 

riverroyal

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
14,437
Reaction score
20,065
Nice write up

I don't hunt. I don't comprehend the hunting desire or why it's done. Never have. I'm not a tree hugger, not a political man, don't pass judgement on many things out of my control. To me the idea of paying money to go stalk and kill something in its 'home' just doesn't make sense. I just don't get it.
This was your attempt at bringing a serious issue to light, which you accomplished. But it's very tough for non hunter guy to think on one hand you are struggling with poachers and on the other hand are their to kill animals

I acknowledge I haven't a clue what's going on in Africa, so you seem extremely passionate about your purpose in showing this.
I hope hunters like you truly make a difference, because guys like me won't.
 

spectras only

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2007
Messages
13,239
Reaction score
13,348
I agree with hunting for food [ I buy my meat at the supermarket though ;)] but don't agree with trophy hunting, period. Trophy hunting was around for ever and wasn' a real problem until fuckin asians found their way to annihilate the animal kingdom via poachers. Fuck em all.:thumbsdown
 

playdeep

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2008
Messages
2,301
Reaction score
5,275
Let's see...
Guy who spends a ton of money to go to Africa &KILL defenseless animals in their environment, bitching about others that have done the same thing...priceless.
 

RiverDave

In it to win it
Joined
Sep 13, 2007
Messages
126,076
Reaction score
164,056
Let's see...
Guy who spends a ton of money to go to Africa &KILL defenseless animals in their environment, bitching about others that have done the same thing...priceless.

Well without tip toeing around the subject.. At least the hunters give enough back to the people where they have vested interest in keeping the animals around..

The poachers will kill an entire species and not give a random shit. But that kinda goes back to a non pc subject of that whole program and the shit they do to each other making savages look civilized..
 

playdeep

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2008
Messages
2,301
Reaction score
5,275
Well without tip toeing around the subject.. At least the hunters give enough back to the people where they have vested interest in keeping the animals around..

The poachers will kill an entire species and not give a random shit. But that kinda goes back to a non pc subject of that whole program and the shit they do to each other making savages look civilized..

I'm in no way,shape or form defending poaching...poachers should be shot
Just commenting on the overall irony.
Not a hunter,don't get the thrill of killing a defenseless animal.
Rather than post this in the appropriate section, OP chose to put it in the lounge where it would be seen by a larger contingent.
Because it's in the lounge I just added my .02.
 

G. Faulk

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Messages
1,136
Reaction score
942
I'm a hunter but not a hunter at any level you are, I thank you for this post. It sickens me to see this happening and I appreciate you bringing it to my attention.

I'm fairly good at handling things like this but from the pics I don't know in person how you did. Power to you.

Where do you even start to end this.
 

Backlash

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
14,443
Reaction score
28,017
This happens here in the U.S.

As a child, I grew up in Florida where hunting and fishing is a way of life. We ate the animals we harvested and feasted on the catches from local waters. Everything from fish and shrimp to oysters and clams. In the fall my Dad and Uncle would head out to the deer camp to hunt for whitetail deer. Winter would bring turkey and ducks and amazing adventures I'll never forget. (Grandpa caught our duck blind on fire shooting old shells from his shotgun.)

When I was a teenager, I lived in Southeast Wyoming. Again, we fished and hunted albeit a completely different type of outdoor lifestyle. We fished for trout in the summers and harvested big game in the fall. We would hunt for antelope, whitetail and mule deer along with elk on occasion.

Not only did we hunt these animals to use them for food, we also had several huge whitetail heads prepared at the local taxidermy. As money was tight, we didn't waste any of the animals we harvested. We would process the animals ourselves to cut costs but it also acted as a way for our family to do things together. We would steak out the meat and grind up the rest for hamburger and the smallest pieces were made into sausage. It was a way our family managed to put food in the freezer without having to buy beef at the local market. Ironically enough, the whitetail tasted as good if not better than the beef because the whitetail deer would blend in with the local cattle and graze on alfalfa.

We were fortunate to have met some amazing friends who also shared the joys of the outdoors (Most people in town did). One such family had a 1600 acre ranch at the foothills of the Rocky Mountains. We were able to use the land and stay in one of their cabins whenever we liked. We truly were blessed as this land was private and rarely hunted (A friend's father harvested the Wyoming State Record Whitetail on this ranch and to my knowledge, the record still stands today).

On one deer hunting trip, midway through the fall, we were scouting some fence lines along the edge of the ranch. We stumbled into two different bodies laying next to the fence. Both were huge whitetail bucks well over 250 pounds. Both bodies were intact and had not been field dressed. But the capes were removed along with both heads. Two beautiful animals that were shot and killed for only their antlers. It was a terrible sight and one that remains in my head 25 years later.

The poachers were never caught but according to a local tracker, they had driven up from Arizona or New Mexico to commit these hideous acts. The owners of the ranch were upset but the criminals were long gone.

I understand the frustration Nganga shared about but obviously my experiences are on a much smaller scale.

Thank you for the informative story.

Henry
 

Kylemenz1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Messages
3,298
Reaction score
1,292
I'm against sport hunting, I just read something about the US considering imposing a $100k tariff on the importation of lion heads/skins killed in Africa for sport/trophys. Wish I would have copied the link.
Killing for sport is not conservation!

Because man does not like wolves, grizzly bears, mountain lions, and bob cats living in their neighborhood WE have created a need for sport hunting. I don't hunt, other then fish. But I do believe that because us humans have systematically removed predators from our ecosystem we need to hunt. Can you imagine how destructive all there's animals would be if there was on thinning of the herd?
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,258
Reaction score
23,712
Let's see...
Guy who spends a ton of money to go to Africa &KILL defenseless animals in their environment, bitching about others that have done the same thing...priceless.

Believe it or not, I don't have any issues with your post. I too see the irony. But the issue is very, very complex. The entire eco-system in Africa runs on a different dynamic and at a different speed than ours here in America.

I was picked up at a dusty little airstrip. We drove three additional hours to camp on tiny little bush roads. We twice drove through villages. One, large enough that Voda-phone put in a tower. As you drive through, the cell phones are ablaze. They are the poachers, they are informing the guilty parties a hunting party has arrived. Poaching will stop until they call and announce that we have departed the concession, no one there to arrest, kill or otherwise stop the illegal activity.

If the cost to save an estimated elephant population of 500-700 is 5 animals, I think thats a no brainer. There are probably now less than 200 elephants in the entire GMA.

I knew I would get some negative comments but thought it through pretty complete. How would you feel if, say Hammer took these pictures while on a Photo Safari? I was intellectually honest enough to give the forum, the entire truth, yet attempted to leave the hunting part out. This issue in a deal breaker for Africa, in Kenya they closed hunting in 1977, there ARE NO ANIMALS LEFT IN KENYA. The only pace to see stuff is in the few National Parks.

There are an estimated 30,000 elephants remaining in Tanzania. There have been more than 100,000 poached in the last 7-9 years. Legal hunting about 1000. (read the link posted by RichardE for the actual numbers)

Yes, hunting is both emotional and controversial. But it is NOT the problem in any scope.
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,258
Reaction score
23,712

Sleek-Jet

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2007
Messages
13,192
Reaction score
16,497
I'm in no way,shape or form defending poaching...poachers should be shot
Just commenting on the overall irony.
Not a hunter,don't get the thrill of killing a defenseless animal.
Rather than post this in the appropriate section, OP chose to put it in the lounge where it would be seen by a larger contingent.
Because it's in the lounge I just added my .02.

There is no irony, one action is legal, one is not.
 

riverroyal

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
14,437
Reaction score
20,065
Believe it or not, I don't have any issues with your post. I too see the irony. But the issue is very, very complex. The entire eco-system in Africa runs on a different dynamic and at a different speed than ours here in America.

I was picked up at a dusty little airstrip. We drove three additional hours to camp on tiny little bush roads. We twice drove through villages. One, large enough that Voda-phone put in a tower. As you drive through, the cell phones are ablaze. They are the poachers, they are informing the guilty parties a hunting party has arrived. Poaching will stop until they call and announce that we have departed the concession, no one there to arrest, kill or otherwise stop the illegal activity.

If the cost to save an estimated elephant population of 500-700 is 5 animals, I think thats a no brainer. There are probably now less than 200 elephants in the entire GMA.

I knew I would get some negative comments but thought it through pretty complete. How would you feel if, say Hammer took these pictures while on a Photo Safari? I was intellectually honest enough to give the forum, the entire truth, yet attempted to leave the hunting part out. This issue in a deal breaker for Africa, in Kenya they closed hunting in 1977, there ARE NO ANIMALS LEFT IN KENYA. The only pace to see stuff is in the few National Parks.

There are an estimated 30,000 elephants remaining in Tanzania. There have been more than 100,000 poached in the last 7-9 years. Legal hunting about 1000. (read the link posted by RichardE for the actual numbers)



Yes, hunting is both emotional and controversial. But it is NOT the problem in any scope.


if hammer took these pictures during a tourist safari he wouldn't mention anything about traveling the world hunting. That's where you lost me. These are great statistics, scary no doubt. But to a NON hunter its very difficult to separate your 'sport' from poaching. Gun, dead animal, sport, mercantile, trading...all the same to me.

Doesn't mean I don't think you are a bad guy, just not something I understand one bit. Not even close. I have great friends that hunt every year. We don't talk about it, they know as you do how it can be hard topic. They also live in the country, in live at the beach with no risk of a animal killing my chickens.

did this trip change you views on hunting in general?
 

500bbc

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
27,368
Reaction score
43,272
Those that oppose hunting should take the time to research the benefits, start with Ducks Unlimited then sheep guzzlers, quail guzzlers and the restriction of commercial hunting in this country.
If not for hunters and fisherman there would no wildlife in this country.
 

GRADS

Phishing license is paid up to date
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
19,348
Reaction score
23,503
:yikes:yikes:yikes I'm pretty sure MilkMoney is a charter member. :lmao

Those that oppose hunting should take the time to research the benefits, start with Ducks Unlimited then sheep guzzlers, quail guzzlers and the restriction of commercial hunting in this country.
 

JD D05

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
8,760
Reaction score
13,304
Those that oppose hunting should take the time to research the benefits, start with Ducks Unlimited then sheep guzzlers, quail guzzlers and the restriction of commercial hunting in this country.
If not for hunters and fisherman there would no wildlife in this country.

Tomorrow is harvest day and for the carrots it is the holocaust.
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,258
Reaction score
23,712
if hammer took these pictures during a tourist safari he wouldn't mention anything about traveling the world hunting. That's where you lost me. These are great statistics, scary no doubt. But to a NON hunter its very difficult to separate your 'sport' from poaching. Gun, dead animal, sport, mercantile, trading...all the same to me.

Doesn't mean I don't think you are a bad guy, just not something I understand one bit. Not even close. I have great friends that hunt every year. We don't talk about it, they know as you do how it can be hard topic. They also live in the country, in live at the beach with no risk of a animal killing my chickens.

did this trip change you views on hunting in general?

RR, again, I could have said nothing and not posted the topic. Had I just put up a poaching thread, with no mention of my traveling as some context, it would be disingenuous just by omission of facts. I completely understand the social taboo hunting has become. Out of all these pictures, NONE of the dead animals were killed as a result of hunting, none. (other than the Buffalo we euthanized)

Being able to take on tough issues and deal with them head on is how big issues are solved. Yesterday, prior this thread, did you have any idea as to the size and scope of this problem? There is so much context to this issue that there isn't enough time in ones day to delve deep enough into. But without a robust sport hunting community in rural, wild Africa, the animals have exactly ZERO chance to survive. Kenya is the best example, no hunting = no animals. (outside national parks.)

I agree 100% its is a counterintuitive argument, protect it so we might potentially have the opportunity to later hunt it.

As to your question on did this trip change my views on hunting, Yes. But as I stated in the OP, I'm conflicted. What it did to me was make me see a different side of the hunting issue. It gave me more of a mirror to view myself and the actions we take on trips like this. More compassion for life, the foul stench of death. The symbiotic relationships between these beasts that have never really been discussed. I would describe my emotion right now on all this as deeply saddened, and a bit "lost."
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,258
Reaction score
23,712
Those that oppose hunting should take the time to research the benefits, start with Ducks Unlimited then sheep guzzlers, quail guzzlers and the restriction of commercial hunting in this country.
If not for hunters and fisherman there would no wildlife in this country.

The organized "anti's" would rather there be no Elephants, than there be Elephant hunting. They want the issue, not the Elephants. Like immigration, they need the issue.
 

JD D05

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
8,760
Reaction score
13,304
Here is what pisses me off. Recently a well known bear killed a human up in Yellowstone. Human got between the bear and the cubs, sorry sport game over you fuked up. Now the same people that don't allow hunting don't allow guns in the park kill the mother bear and act like they saved someone or something.

Life is life no matter where it was brought into the world or how it was taken out. The real irony is how butt hurt or "I don't understand" people are but order a steak or whatever. Not sure if anyone has ever been to a slaughter house but there is a millions times more grace and respect when an animal is legally taken in the wild by a hunter that respects the process. I personally think we as humans can't change our basic instincts of hunting and gathering on some level. I understand we now live in a society that does not require the basic forms of this to survive but it is still there.

Poaching is disgusting with the exception of someone doing it to truly feed his or her family. Yes that does still happen, I use to give my deer to a family every year. The mom would literally break down in tears every time we dropped one off. My uncle is a big cattle rancher in Montana, the sick and dead cows he takes up to the Indian reservation and it is like Christmas morning for them.

I have hunted in my life and it taught me a lot of good lessons. I have no interest in killing an animal and haven't for a long time. I guess what gets me is the inconsistency we have when it comes to the type of animal or the process of how it happened. For example re introducing the wolves and the effect it has had.
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,258
Reaction score
23,712
Here is what pisses me off. Recently a well known bear killed a human up in Yellowstone. Human got between the bear and the cubs, sorry sport game over you fuked up. Now the same people that don't allow hunting don't allow guns in the park kill the mother bear and act like they saved someone or something.

Life is life no matter where it was brought into the world or how it was taken out. The real irony is how butt hurt or "I don't understand" people are but order a steak or whatever. Not sure if anyone has ever been to a slaughter house but there is a millions times more grace and respect when an animal is legally taken in the wild by a hunter that respects the process. I personally think we as humans can't change our basic instincts of hunting and gathering on some level. I understand we now live in a society that does not require the basic forms of this to survive but it is still there.

Poaching is disgusting with the exception of someone doing it to truly feed his or her family. Yes that does still happen, I use to give my deer to a family every year. The mom would literally break down in tears every time we dropped one off. My uncle is a big cattle rancher in Montana, the sick and dead cows he takes up to the Indian reservation and it is like Christmas morning for them.

I have hunted in my life and it taught me a lot of good lessons. I have no interest in killing an animal and haven't for a long time. I guess what gets me is the inconsistency we have when it comes to the type of animal or the process of how it happened. For example re introducing the wolves and the effect it has had.

This. :thumbup:
 

Old Texan

Honorary Warden #377 Emeritus - R.I.P.
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
24,479
Reaction score
25,980
C'mon RD....I'd rather see porn than this shit on the site.:thumbsdown

Reality cannot be ignored no matter how hard one tries. Don't click on the link if you can't or won't face it.

This is a serious topic that shows just how big of mess African man has brought upon his world. Without information like this being brought to light, the beauty and splendor of African nature will be little more than a myth.

Take it as you will Grads, but it's life and a serious situation that should bring revulsion. And realize this mess isn't limited to wildlife, they're doing it to humans at the same rate. Hopefully it's not to late to save Africa from itself. Hiding from reality wont' do it.
 

Old Texan

Honorary Warden #377 Emeritus - R.I.P.
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
24,479
Reaction score
25,980
Let's see...
Guy who spends a ton of money to go to Africa &KILL defenseless animals in their environment, bitching about others that have done the same thing...priceless.

You fella, miss the whole point and the reality.

Don't post and your ignorance is unknown, post and let the world know about it.:rolleyes;)
 
Top